Someone just crossed the moral event horizon!

[krossbow]

Should i feel like a horrible person that i haven't batted an eye at tarquin murdering and torturing numerous people so far, but i am overcome with absolute hatred at yukyuk for shooting a defenseless cat with a crossbow? :smallconfused:


Either way, yukyuk has Eclipsed all other villains besides xykon in repulsiveness to me with this comic! :smallfurious:

[ThePhantasm]

Should i feel like a horrible person that i haven't batted an eye at tarquin murdering and torturing numerous people so far, but i am overcome with absolute hatred at yukyuk for shooting a defenseless cat with a crossbow? :smallconfused:


Either way, yukyuk has Eclipsed all other villains besides xykon in repulsiveness to me with this comic! :smallfurious:

Is this so much more horrible than the slaughter of the Sapphire Guard, the familicide of the black dragons, the torturing of O-Chul for sport, etc?

To be honest, I think Scruffy's death has been foreshadowed. There'll be nothing for him to do after the Belkster is gone anyways. I think Scruffy will die first.

I guess he's cute and all, but I'm honestly a little surprised to see everyone reacting so strongly already to just one arrow wound.

[Gift Jeraff]

I guess he's cute and all, but I'm honestly a little surprised to see everyone reacting so strongly already to just one arrow wound.This is the Internet. We're all supposed to pretend to be tough guys who have a soft spot for cats. :smalltongue:

[FujinAkari]

Mr. Scruffy better not die... it would seriously be entering squick territory for me X_x

[Souhiro]

To be honest, I think Scruffy's death has been foreshadowed

NEVEEEEEEEER!!!

Yukyuk has earned the MOST HATEFUL BEING in webcomics place, waaaaay before Redcloack and Xykon.

Please, someone break Belkar free and give him a pair of +5 dual chainsaws!

[Orzel]

I guess he's cute and all, but I'm honestly a little surprised to see everyone reacting so strongly already to just one arrow wound.

You don't shoot kitties with crossbow bolts.
Not even demon kitties.
You have to polymorph them first.

*adds 10,000 gp to YukYuk's bounty in case he gets away*

[Tanngrisnir]

Is this so much more horrible than the slaughter of the Sapphire Guard, the familicide of the black dragons, the torturing of O-Chul for sport, etc?

To be honest, I think Scruffy's death has been foreshadowed. There'll be nothing for him to do after the Belkster is gone anyways. I think Scruffy will die first.

I guess he's cute and all, but I'm honestly a little surprised to see everyone reacting so strongly already to just one arrow wound.

I don't think the cat is cute, but other than that I agree with this.

Personally I'm hoping the cat dies because it would be nice to see how Belkar reacts to it.

[Demented]

For every moral event horizon thou crosseth in the hurting of there Mr. Scruffy, then shalt halfling Belkar crosseth ten!

...

Learning middle english is on the todo list, I swear. (ed. note: He's lying. Get him!)

[rakkoon]

If Scruffy dies, we could just let the Snarl win, it just wouldn't matter anymore

[Damaris]

I came to the forum today just to check if other people felt the same. You just don't shot the cute, defenceless, murdering cat. :(

[Grumpy-Mcfart]

one of my cats is very sick right now and may have to be put down

this strip hit just a little too close to home for me

[Kislath]

Yukyuk is SO dead.
Belkar is gonna do things to him that which go WAY beyond merely uncalled-for.
WHOA! Waitaminute... is this how Belkar is going to meet his end? Will he sacrifice himself for revenge? ( or even to save Scruffy )

[Asta Kask]

I asked my cat, and he says as long as it's not him, he doesn't really care.

[TheSummoner]

So... I spend most of the night with a few friends of mine... I come home and as soon as I get out of the shower, I decide to check the forums... Wasn't expecting an update, but I got a plesent surprise seeing an unfamiliar comic on the home page... Then I read the update...

YukYuk has sealed his fate. I'm sure everyone remembers what happened to the last person who threatened Mr. Scruffy. This jackass took it a step further and actually injured him.

I am going to enjoy watching Belkar kill him. I am going to enjoy Belkar making it as long as painful as possible. No... This one will not be a swift death followed by a comedic corpse desecration... This one will be slow, drawn out, and the desecration will happen long before the corpsification. Perhaps Belkar will remember what he planned on doing to the Eye of Fear and Flame and use YukYuk's sliced open but still breathing body as a latrine...

[NegativeFifteen]

See, its less repulsive that you don't get worked up over an internet comic than say, the Holocaust Museum?

I can see the whole Yukyuk thing being REALLY anticlimactic. Maybe Ian will kill him for a change of pace.

[TheSummoner]

That could be funny so long as Scruffy gets away... Like Scruffy gets runs through the bars into the prison area, YukYuk is stalled while he tries picking the locks. Once YukYuk gets through, he starts searching for Scruffy (who has found his way to a now furious Belkar). As YukYuk spots Belkar, tending Scruffy's wound, out of nowhere Ian just stabs him.

[Dalek-K]

Do you really think Belkar will go after the Kobold first?

:smallfurious:

EDIT: Mexican Standoff :D

[Detrinex]

Scruffy won't die, that is for sure. He may be shot, but if he dies, then I think half the fans would quit and the comic would go into Cerebus Syndrome really quickly.

Besides, Mr. Scruffy *is* Lord Shojo's next incarnation.

[martianmister]

Should i feel like a horrible person that i haven't batted an eye at tarquin murdering and torturing numerous people so far, but i am overcome with absolute hatred at yukyuk for shooting a defenseless cat...

...who just killed an innocent and clearly not evil man (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) in cold blood...

GO YUKYUK, GO! :cool: :biggrin:

[TheSummoner]

Dude... Not funny.

[martianmister]

Dude... Not funny.

It was not funny for Evisceratus as well...

[cheesecake]

I am an animal lover.

I can watch movies where thousands of people are slaughtered and enjoy the movie! Cheer as innards are made outards! But when it comes to a movie when an animal is hurt or killed I seriously can't stand it.

I love Road warrior, but the part where they shoot the dog with the cross bow I always close my eyes...

[Armitage]

...who just killed an innocent and clearly not evil man (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) in cold blood...
But there where mitigating circumstances: Scruffy is a cute little cat!

[willpell]

It's interesting to observe this reaction. Sure cats are cute and lovable to humans - but they're monsters to mice. And what about to each other?

I think we consider harming a cat worse than harming a human because we know from personal experience how monstrous humans can be, while for cats we see them only from our superior perspective and perceive them as possessing anima value - but they ARE predators, even after we've domesticated them.

We shouldn't value Mr. Scruffy more than Evisceratus just because of species. And the fact that Scruffy is a semi-PC and Evisceratus is a random mook is only a slightly better distinction. Sure the Giant can wave his hand and make twelve more just like Evisceratus, while Scruffy has some plot time devoted to him, but ultimately they're both fictional characters, spun from the imaginations of human beings. Dismissing the value of even fictional human life when real humans are capable of the miracle of storytelling strikes me as rather poor form.

I don't want Scruffy to die, but I certainly don't cringe at him being hurt; it takes the whole idea of Kick the Dog up a notch and gives Yukyuk his first real moment of characterization. The Giant has done well IMO.

I think I've just decided I want an Evisceratus avatar of some sort....

[King of Nowhere]

I think this is another application of the concept of monkeysphere (http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html).
The death of hundreds of innocent mooks don''t touch us really, cause they're outside of our monkeysphere and it happens off-panel.
Evisceratus was a very minor character, still i think what kept his death outside of being felt as bad is the fact that it happened in a very humorous and anticlimatic way.
Mr Scruffy is cute, well inside our monkeysphere, and is being hurt for sadism (yukyuk don't know he's belkar's animal companion, he just assumes he's a random cat - and he INTERRUPTS A BATTLE to hurt a random cat). That upsets us much more that the stunt of tarquin wuth the slaves.

[martianmister]

Mr Scruffy is cute, well inside our monkeysphere, and is being hurt for sadism (yukyuk don't know he's belkar's animal companion, he just assumes he's a random cat - and he INTERRUPTS A BATTLE to hurt a random cat). That upsets us much more that the stunt of tarquin wuth the slaves.

LG is probably watching them in whole time. So, they are know Scruffy is belongs to them.

[ORione]

Familicide: 5 kilonazis
Burning Slaves Alive: 3 kilonazis
Shooting a Cat: 9 kilonazis

[KillianHawkeye]

I think this is another application of the concept of monkeysphere (http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html).
The death of hundreds of innocent mooks don''t touch us really, cause they're outside of our monkeysphere and it happens off-panel.
Evisceratus was a very minor character, still i think what kept his death outside of being felt as bad is the fact that it happened in a very humorous and anticlimatic way.
Mr Scruffy is cute, well inside our monkeysphere, and is being hurt for sadism (yukyuk don't know he's belkar's animal companion, he just assumes he's a random cat - and he INTERRUPTS A BATTLE to hurt a random cat). That upsets us much more that the stunt of tarquin wuth the slaves.

I agree. I feel just as bad seeing Mr. Scruffy get shot as if he were any other major/semi-major character. It's basically the same as when Nale stabbed Elan. And it's BECAUSE Mr. Scruffy IS a real character in the comic just like Elan. (Although admittedly, Elan does get more lines. :smallwink:)

[Bleak Ink]

I agree with several of the other posters: watching slaves being burned, civilians mauled and various other crimes against humanity has not stirred the indignation or outrage that seeing that little cat shot has brought on. As a cat-lover myself, I would wholeheartedly approve of the wretched, wretched end I sincerely hope YukYuk has brought upon himself.


Familicide: 5 kilonazis
Burning Slaves Alive: 3 kilonazis
Shooting a Cat: 9 kilonazis

Approved.

[faustin]

I don't want Scruffy to die, but I certainly don't cringe at him being hurt; it takes the whole idea of Kick the Dog up a notch and gives Yukyuk his first real moment of characterization. The Giant has done well IMO.


I agree. But it´s kinda stupid that Yukyuk leaves the track of his main preys (Elan and Haley) to pursue a random cat (he doesn´t even know Scruffy is Belkar´s companion). The keys of a good ambush are to be fast and precise, and the Linear Guild is playing in a VERY hostile territory (Tarquin´s kingdom).

[ThePhantasm]

(he doesn´t even know Scruffy is Belkar´s companion).

He doesn't? Huh. 'Cus I'm pretty sure he does.

Maybe because Zz's scrying eyeball saw Scruffy with the rest of the Order. . .

Why do you think he doesn't know?

[Ping Pong Along]

It's interesting to observe this reaction. Sure cats are cute and lovable to humans - but they're monsters to mice. And what about to each other?

I think we consider harming a cat worse than harming a human because we know from personal experience how monstrous humans can be, while for cats we see them only from our superior perspective and perceive them as possessing anima value - but they ARE predators, even after we've domesticated them.

We shouldn't value Mr. Scruffy more than Evisceratus just because of species. And the fact that Scruffy is a semi-PC and Evisceratus is a random mook is only a slightly better distinction. Sure the Giant can wave his hand and make twelve more just like Evisceratus, while Scruffy has some plot time devoted to him, but ultimately they're both fictional characters, spun from the imaginations of human beings. Dismissing the value of even fictional human life when real humans are capable of the miracle of storytelling strikes me as rather poor form.

I don't want Scruffy to die, but I certainly don't cringe at him being hurt; it takes the whole idea of Kick the Dog up a notch and gives Yukyuk his first real moment of characterization. The Giant has done well IMO.

I think I've just decided I want an Evisceratus avatar of some sort....

These are my thoughts.

While I think what Yukyuk did was obviously wrong, I don't understand why I should be so worked up about it. No actual cat was harmed in the making of this comic. It can't be because Mr. Scruffy is such a great character. He's mostly forgotten about except around Belkar. Now if people thought about how this will impact him, I could understand that. But that's not what is happening. I see people projecting their own love for cats onto this. No reason to get this worked up.

[Flame of Anor]

For every moral event horizon thou crosseth in the hurting of there Mr. Scruffy, then shalt halfling Belkar crosseth ten!

...

Learning middle english is on the todo list, I swear. (ed. note: He's lying. Get him!)

That's (attempting to be) Early Modern English.

[Ranger Mattos]

I hope that Yukyuk dies horribly. Maybe Belkar will feed him to himself. And if Mr. Scruffy is killed...

Such things would be done to Yukyuk that the comic would become the bloodiest thing on the internet for one strip.

[ThePhantasm]

Are you guys all serious?

Come on. Its a cartoon cat for Pete's sake. What about the human beings in the strip who have died?

[ThePhantasm]

Are you guys all serious?

Come on. Its a cartoon cat for Pete's sake. What about the human beings in the strip who have died?

[Onyavar]

Scruffy won't die, that is for sure. He may be shot, but if he dies, then I think half the fans would quit and the comic would go into Cerebus Syndrome really quickly.
...

:smallconfused:
Cerebus Syndrome hit the OotS more than 400 strips ago, did you notice?

Well, I too like this evil white kitty, but why shouldn't he die? I can already imagine it:
Belkar senses his animal companion die and gets all upset, claws his way from arena prison, meets Yukyuk heavily injured and gets shot and made into a trophy.

However, I was always favoring another outcome:
Belkar dies, and stays as an ethereal companion near to the Order, like Roy did. And he guides Mr Scruffy, who still stays in the Order.

[SPoD]

Are you guys all serious?

Come on. Its a cartoon cat for Pete's sake. What about the human beings in the strip who have died?

Almost every human/demihuman who has died in the strip has been either:
A trained combatant or some sort, such as the members of the Sapphire Guard who chose to put themselves in harm's way. (in contrast, Mr. Scruffy is certainly no threat to Yukyuk, because Yukyuk is a mid- to high-level adventurer instead of a 1st level Commoner. And we only have forum speculation that he actually IS an Animal Companion instead of just a simple housecat.)
A nameless character who we were only introduced to briefly before (or even after) their death (the slaves, everyone Nale killed in Cliffport). (Mr. Scruffy is a named character that we have seen regularly since strip #266.)

Most of the exceptions are well-remembered and provoked at least as much outrage, such as the gnome Belkar killed for his cart. So yeah, it's not that surprising that the reaction is substantially different than that for all the human deaths. Back in the day, the reaction to Nale stabbing Elan for the first time was just about the same: shock and surprise that a weak character we like was being brutally attacked by a stronger one that we didn't.

Also, some of us like cats better than we like humans, when taken as an aggregate.

[H Birchgrove]

:belkar: "You and me to the end, remember?"

I'm eagerly waiting for the sexy shoeless god of war to pay evil unto evil. :smallamused:

Tarquin: "Oooooo, bonus action!"

[BiblioRook]

Here's a question.

While it's possibly an understatement that this will piss off Belkar and 'kill Yukyuk horribly'... just how worst can this be compared to how Belkar dealt with every other single kolbald before him?

I guess that's the part that bugs me about Yukyuk attacking Mr. Scruffy as it feels like it's meant to add drama despite the fact Belkar probably wouldn't act that much differently if said kolbald tried to kill his beloved cat or, say, accidentally bumped his shoulder walking down the street.

[Ranzear]

I do find it uncharacteristic for Belkar to not include Mr. Scruffy as a member of OOTS as he only counts the core six of them including himself (Blackwing gets a pass for comedic reasons covered earlier).

[Magdela]

Most of a thread about Mr. Scruffy, and no sympathy for the zebra on the last comic. :smallamused:

[Saco de Carne]

It was not funny for Evisceratus as well...

Hahaha, well said!
Thats not a defenseless cat! It has claws like small short swords!

[TheSummoner]

It was not funny for Evisceratus as well...

Really? This is your argument that a cat deserves a horrible death?

Eviscertaus was a joke character who was died because Mr. Scruffy saw him attacking his master. Mr. Scruffy is a cat, he doesn't know that Eviscertaus was no threat to Belkar, all he saw was his master being attacked by something twice his size without him attacking back. The fact that Eviscertaus would pick a fight with Belkar (Eviscertaus is not a cat. It should be pretty obvious that he isn't in Belkar's league) makes him too stupid to live as it is and the fact that his parents would even give him a name like "Eviscertaus" and that he was weak enough to be disembowled by a freaking cat of all things should make it obvious that the universe hated him so much that his horrible death was inevitable.

[SPoD]

guess that's the part that bugs me about Yukyuk attacking Mr. Scruffy as it feels like it's meant to add drama despite the fact Belkar probably wouldn't act that much differently if said kolbald tried to kill his beloved cat or, say, accidentally bumped his shoulder walking down the street.

I don't think it's meant to add drama regarding Belkar's retribution, I think it's meant to add drama regarding whether or not Mr. Scruffy lives. Arguably, the fact that the kobold was almost certainly going to die horribly at Belkar's hands actually robs Belkar of the ability to inflict any greater punishment on him.

The question then becomes, "How might this affect Belkar in ways other than seeking revenge?" For example, we'll have to see how Belkar deals with needing to actually care for his hurt animal. There's more to being a good pet owner than killing the people who threaten your animal, after all, and I'm not sure Belkar is emotionally equipped to handle it.

[martianmister]

Really? This is your argument that a cat deserves a horrible death?

It's not my arguement, it's just karma. :smallamused:
And Scruffy isn't a defenseless animal, he is the animal companion of Belkar, similar to Scraggly, the animal companion of Yukyuk. I wonder what will some people think when Belkar or some other member of OotS do kill an "innocent dog" like Scraggly...
I would like to see Scruffy, Scraggly, Belkar and Yukyuk's death within this storyline. Probably in a death match between themselves...

[SPoD]

And Scruffy isn't a defenseless animal, he is the animal companion of Belkar, similar to Scraggly.

We don't know that. That's pure speculation. He may just have the base stats of a housecat.

[ThePhantasm]

There are movies and books where dogs die. Old Yeller. Lassie. Where the Red Fern Grows. Its not going to be the end of the world (heh heh) if a cat bites the dust in a story for once.

I think Scruffy will die, just because he won't have anything to do in the story if he lives after Belkar is gone. He doesn't seem to care about the Order, just about Belkar.

[martianmister]

We don't know that. That's pure speculation. He may just have the base stats of a housecat.

In 8th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html), Oracle's memory charm didn't affected the donkey (a normal animal), but Scruffy is affected by same charm. That support Scruffy's being an animal companion.

[GSFB]

I do find it uncharacteristic for Belkar to not include Mr. Scruffy as a member of OOTS as he only counts the core six of them including himself

He obviously doesn't count V.

[faustin]

In 8th panel, Oracle's memory charm didn't affected the donkey (a normal animal), but Scruffy is affected by same charm. That support Scruffy's being an animal companion.

Well, I am still paranoid with the possibility of Shojo´s spirit hidden inside the cat.:smalltongue:

[TheSummoner]

It's not my arguement, it's just karma. :smallamused:

I'll make sure not to come to the defense of any of my friends. I'd hate for karma to decide it needs to kick my ass.

[Caractacus]

For every moral event horizon thou crosseth in the hurting of there Mr. Scruffy, then shalt halfling Belkar crosseth ten!

...

Learning middle english is on the todo list, I swear. (ed. note: He's lying. Get him!)

Heh! :smallbiggrin:


That's (attempting to be) Early Modern English.

Well, yeah, that's what I thought, too, but it made me laugh. The problem (assuming you are going for EME) is that it is very hard to make it look like that's what you are doing if the verb follows a modal and so isn't conjugated.

My version of the sentence in a mock OE/EME/Pseudo-Biblical hybrid:

"For e're moral event horizone ye Kobold crosseth in the hurting of ye Mr. Scruffie, then, yay, so halfling Belkar he crosseth ten!" :smalltongue:

Add to this if you please! :smallcool:

[Ingus]

I'm not sure if Mr Scruffy will survive, but I guess we all agree that Yukyuk is really going to die in a revenge cliffhanger by the hands of Belkar.
In fact



While it's possibly an understatement that this will piss off Belkar and 'kill Yukyuk horribly'... just how worst can this be compared to how Belkar dealt with every other single kolbald before him?



Yes, after...
...having beheded two kobolds and having used their heads as food receptacle

the real question here is how exactly Yukyuk will horribly die?

Or is V that is going to horribly die?

[faustin]

While it's possibly an understatement that this will piss off Belkar and 'kill Yukyuk horribly'... just how worst can this be compared to how Belkar dealt with every other single kolbald before him?

I have a theory.... and involves Thog´s disk of Celine Dion. :smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

the other two kobolds got quick deaths. If belkar will have his way, yukyuk will suffer much more

EDIT: by the way, i think that we have PROOF that scruffy is an animal companion and not a regular housecat just by this last strip. there's no way a regular cat would have survived a crossbow bolt, especially considering yukyuk is likely to have a fair bonus to damage.

[derfenrirwolv]

1 well known, lovable, white fluffy cat being attacked is a tragedy.
30 something unknown slaves being burned alive off stage is a statistic.

[MarkusWolfe]

{scrubbed}

[CrimsonAngel]

He shot a cat. He's my enemy. I will devote my life to building a machine that will suck him out of the comic and make him real so that I can blow him up.

He shot a cat.

[krossbow]

The reason why this seems so awful while atrocities against NPC's is that, horrific circumstances notwithstanding, most people don't have to worry about being soaked in pitch and set on fire or being disembowled by a cat; however, a shooting a cat with a weapon for fun is something that jackoffs in real life occasionally do.


It is more horrible due to its realism; take the explanation in discworld for why captain carrots unmagic sword is more powerful than a magical sword as psudo example :smalltongue:

[Orzel]

He shot a cat. He's my enemy. I will devote my life to building a machine that will suck him out of the comic and make him real so that I can blow him up.

He shot a cat.

Here take my money.

*throws*

[veti]

I wonder what the forum will say when Mr Scruffy rips Sir Scraggly's throat out.

Honestly, that cat is about as defenseless as a battalion of marines.

Given the last panel of #792, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this is the buildup to Belkar's untimely demise. And it would be fitting if Mr S dies in the same event. So let's try not get too attached to either of the little psychopaths.

[FatJose]

Given the last panel of #792, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this is the buildup to Belkar's untimely demise. And it would be fitting if Mr S dies in the same event. So let's try not get too attached to either of the little psychopaths.

The last panel shows Belkar forgetting about a very important person. "The Six" Roy, Belkar, V, Haley, Elan and Durkon. 6. He forgot to take in account Scruffy and the fact that the cat is a noncombatant.

Yeah, it killed a commoner to protect Belkar but that was a joke about how crap D&D calculations are with comparing stats of animal and people.

I see V taking care of Scruffy after Belkar's death more than the two dieing at the hands of some weaksause kobold and his little mount.

[The Glyphstone]

I think it's a given that YukYuk has committed an evil act and is about to lose his Paladin powers.:smallbiggrin:

[ORione]

{scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}
More analysis of why we care more about Mr. Scruffy than humans/demihumans/humanoids:

Western culture is used to people being killed, so we're desensitized to it. But animals don't get killed in movies or whatever that often. Thus, it makes us feel more.

[martianmister]

I think it's a given that YukYuk has committed an evil act and is about to lose his Paladin powers.:smallbiggrin:

I think it's a given that Scruffy has committed an evil act and is about to lose his life. :smallbiggrin:

[Ranger Mattos]

I think it's a given that Scruffy has committed an evil act and is about to lose his life. :smallbiggrin:

What? Mr. Scruffy did an evil act? When was this? :smallconfused:

[oddtail]

I can buy the "monkeysphere" explanation. I guess it's just another reason for me to believe that my own monkeysphere is somehow off. I cared more about the burning slaves, even though they were never even shown on-panel (well, while they were burning, we did see them freed).

And frankly, now I want to see the cat die, just to see the pissed off forumites. Go YukYuk, go!

EDIT: how the heck did I spell "die" as "guy"??

[Tvtyrant]

Are you guys all serious?

Come on. Its a cartoon cat for Pete's sake. What about the human beings in the strip who have died?

You have to remember that pets are anthropomorphized as children in modern society, and the outrage over animal cruelty tends to fall in line with this cultural value. Robert Darnton's The Great Cat Massacre discusses the symbolic meanings of cats in the past, and later books based on it show the steady progression of social values viewing pets as children rather than work animals that live in the home, to the point where these same values are frequently applied to farm animals by city folk.

[Forikroder]

{{scrubbed}}

[Zombimode]

I can buy the "monkeysphere" explanation. I guess it's just another reason for me to believe that my own monkeysphere is somehow off. I cared more about the burning slaves, even though they were never even shown on-panel (well, while they were burning, we did see them freed).

And frankly, now I want to see the cat die, just to see the pissed off forumites. Go YukYuk, go!

EDIT: how the heck did I spell "die" as "guy"??

I will join the club. *makes popcorn*

And I dont think your monkeysphere is off, but rather well adjusted.

[Flame of Anor]

My version of the sentence in a mock OE/EME/Pseudo-Biblical hybrid:

"For e're moral event horizone ye Kobold crosseth in the hurting of ye Mr. Scruffie, then, yay, so halfling Belkar he crosseth ten!" :smalltongue:


Aagh, my poor logophilic ears! :smalleek:

[MoonCat]

I think it's a given that Scruffy has committed an evil act and is about to lose his life. :smallbiggrin:

And that makes you happy? I can see how people can find him to have done something evil, even if I don't agree, but seriously? You're grinning?

[Spleen_]

This is the Internet. We're all supposed to pretend to be tough guys who have a soft spot for cats. :smalltongue:

Spot on.

Look, I love cats and I think Mr. Scruffy has been one of the best additions to the story, but sometimes the internet seriously creeps me out when it comes to cats.

Cats are top predators. They are built, from the ground up, to be efficient killing machines. It's the whole reason we domesticated them, mind you. What's more, Mr. Scruffy has been traveling with a high-level adventuring party, actively contributing to their campaign, and is possibly a high-level ranger's animal companion. To say nothing of poor Eviceratus.

Mr. Scruffy is a warrior, in both biology and in character. Not some defenseless pity-box. To treat his injury (not even his death!) with such melodrama rather does him a disfavor, in my opinion.

[krossbow]

Spot on.

Look, I love cats and I think Mr. Scruffy has been one of the best additions to the story, but sometimes the internet seriously creeps me out when it comes to cats.

Cats are top predators. They are built, from the ground up, to be efficient killing machines. It's the whole reason we domesticated them, mind you. What's more, Mr. Scruffy has been traveling with a high-level adventuring party, actively contributing to their campaign, and is possibly a high-level ranger's animal companion. To say nothing of poor Eviceratus.

Mr. Scruffy is a warrior, in both biology and in character. Not some defenseless pity-box. To treat his injury (not even his death!) with such melodrama rather does him a disfavor, in my opinion.


Does this look like the face of a killer to you? :smalltongue:
http://www.jtbourne.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/scottish-fold-kitten.jpg

[TheSummoner]

I want that!

No, it does not matter that I already have 3 larger ones and two of those were not my idea to get (I love them all, they just weren't my idea), I want that one. One of them shakes hands for treats... I used to have one who would fetch a little rubber ball...

[Spleen_]

Does this look like the face of a killer to you? :smalltongue:
http://www.jtbourne.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/scottish-fold-kitten.jpg

The most adorable ruthless killing machine that ever did live :smallbiggrin:

[Demented]

Cats are top predators. They are built, from the ground up, to be efficient killing machines.
[...]
Mr. Scruffy is a warrior, in both biology and in character. Not some defenseless pity-box. To treat his injury (not even his death!) with such melodrama rather does him a disfavor, in my opinion.

There are higher predators than housecats or their wild equivalents. But I agree about Scruffy. Any cat that can survive a bolt from a level 10+ Kobold Ranger's hand crossbow* is a cat to be reckoned with.

*And probably another. Furry Animals that die from arrows and bolts invariably have at least three sticking from their ribs.

[Juggling Goth]

It's interesting to observe this reaction. Sure cats are cute and lovable to humans - but they're monsters to mice. And what about to each other?

I think we consider harming a cat worse than harming a human because we know from personal experience how monstrous humans can be, while for cats we see them only from our superior perspective and perceive them as possessing anima value - but they ARE predators, even after we've domesticated them.

Animal cruelty, or even neglect, gets to me because of the abuse of power. With great domestication comes great responsibility. Domestication is like a social contract or something. Plus, the animal stands much less chance of fighting back successfully (when it's something like a cat obviously). There's just too much of the "because I can" aspect to it.

[Souhiro]

There are higher predators than housecats or their wild equivalents. But I agree about Scruffy. Any cat that can survive a bolt from a level 10+ Kobold Ranger's hand crossbow* is a cat to be reckoned with.

*And probably another. Furry Animals that die from arrows and bolts invariably have at least three sticking from their ribs.

Well, this is D&D, Mr Scruffy, like everyone else, has HitPoints, and The Belkster has at least 8 or 9 ranger levels before going barbarian. Even if Mr scruffy has No CON, and only rolled 1 in his HD, his minium HP should be enough (if barely) to survive a 1D6 light crossbow bolt. But unless he can get out quickly, his luck will end very soon.

Yukyuk is now the most hated character in the series, Next time any of my characters will fight a kobold, he will scream "THIS IS FOR MR SCRUFFY!" Darn, I even see justifiable to cast familicide in 100 non related Kobolds now!


I think it's a given that Scruffy has committed an evil act and is about to lose his life. :smallbiggrin:

Protecting your master, your ally, your best friend, from somebody that just want to kill him? And that is an evil act? I hardly can see Mr Scruffy guilty of any of Belkar's crimes.

[Demented]

My point is that Scruffy is not an ordinary cat (1 HP, slight threat to commoners). If you're saying Scruffy is an animal companion, then that only further proves that Scruffy is not an ordinary cat. Animal companions are effective combatants, regardless of size.

[LightsOnNo1Home]

Does this look like the face of a killer to you? :smalltongue:
http://www.jtbourne.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/scottish-fold-kitten.jpg

Yes. Yes it does. And give it a fluffy ball on the end of a piece of string and you will get to watch it practice being a ruthless and sadistic killer.

Most predators kill to eat, but I've seen cats go out with a full stomach and brutally murder some smaller, but equally cute and fluffy, animal just because it can.

I love cats, but they are VICIOUS, each and every one of them. Seriously, Yukyuk is evil, we know this, but as a member of the LG, that was (almost) a given. So far he has done nothing that even remotely compares to Belkar's worst excesses, never mind Xykon's. Or V's for that matter.

He has, most definitely "kicked the dog". He will most likely die for it, and he certainly deserves to. But seriously, we've seen much worse acts in the comic than this before now.

[whitelaughter]

...who just killed an innocent and clearly not evil man (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) in cold blood...

GO YUKYUK, GO! :cool: :biggrin:

This. Avenge the LG 1st level Commoner, Yukyuk.

It's looking bad for Belkar - isolated, no magic items, no *weapons* (other than a rock), and 'locked' in a cell. Given he got out to release the Allosaur, I'm guessing that it won't just be a case of Yukyuk emptying quarrels through the bars at the runt, but it's still a nightmare situation for him.

First thought: what will the elder Starshine do?

Second thought: it would be amusing if Belkar ends up buried in a prison cell, given how unfair he conisders them...


Most of a thread about Mr. Scruffy, and no sympathy for the zebra on the last comic. :smallamused:

What bet that if the zebra has killed someone, then he'd have supporters?

[Killer Angel]

Plus, the animal stands much less chance of fighting back successfully (when it's something like a cat obviously).

Exceptions exist (http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/05/09/man-airlifted-to-hospital-after-fight-with-cat/). :smalltongue:

[TheSummoner]

The zebra was a one shot character who probably didn't actually exist... The panel being a visual representation of Thog's "joke" in the same way Haley had several hypotheticals of Roy being raised as undead that were shown on panel but didn't actually happen.

[LightsOnNo1Home]

The zebra was a one shot character who probably didn't actually exist... The panel being a visual representation of Thog's "joke" in the same way Haley had several hypotheticals of Roy being raised as undead that were shown on panel but didn't actually happen.

Mr Scruffy doesn't actually exist either. He's a character in a webcomic.

[TheSummoner]

I mean in-universe and it was pretty obvious that I did. No need to split hairs like that.

[Valley]

Are you guys all serious?

Come on. Its a cartoon cat for Pete's sake. What about the human beings in the strip who have died?


What human beings? By your own logic..they are all cartoon characters. So they can all die in death camps and it would be OK.

[LightsOnNo1Home]

I mean in-universe and it was pretty obvious that I did. No need to split hairs like that.

I was joking.

The fact is that Yukyuk, Mr Scruffy, Belkar, and everyone else are characters in a story. They will fulfil the role that the author had in mind for them. If Mr Scruffy's primary function in the story is to hang around until Yukyuk kills him to show how evil he is, then so be it. It will emphasise how much of a threat Yukyuk is, how evil he his, and set the stage for some great drama later on when the inevitable confrontation between Belkar and Yukyuk happens.

And that's all. I'm not going to shave time off my life getting worked up over it.

One more thing: there have been 3 events in this story arc that have made me go "holy crap! I wasn't expecting something that horrible from the pg rated, light hearted comedy webcomic", (belkar ripping off someones head and urinating on him, a slave/prisoner who was a good man having his guts spilled all over the place, and the winner, tarquins burning of the slaves)

This? Didn't even come close.

[Juggling Goth]

Exceptions exist (http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/05/09/man-airlifted-to-hospital-after-fight-with-cat/). :smalltongue:

Heh. My friend's nan's cat used to hide under furniture, let out a plaintive meow, wait for some well-meaning human to investigate face-first, and then go for the eyes or the throat. This wasn't a one-off event. It did it whenever it could get away with it.

[swethy]

Heh. My friend's nan's cat used to hide under furniture, let out a plaintive meow, wait for some well-meaning human to investigate face-first, and then go for the eyes or the throat. This wasn't a one-off event. It did it whenever it could get away with it.

Hold a stick under the chair and when it bites, pull it out.:smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Epic]

Should i feel like a horrible person that i haven't batted an eye at tarquin murdering and torturing numerous people so far, but i am overcome with absolute hatred at yukyuk for shooting a defenseless cat with a crossbow? :smallconfused:


Either way, yukyuk has Eclipsed all other villains besides xykon in repulsiveness to me with this comic! :smallfurious:

Yes, a defenseless cat, who not too long ago tore a hole in a man's torso that caused his intestines to fall out and kill the guy. I've seen more tame stuff in slasher films.

[TheSummoner]

Hold a stick under the chair and when it bites, pull it out.:smallbiggrin:

Or just taunt the kitty with a piece of string or a toy on a string... Seems like the thing just wanted to play...

[LightsOnNo1Home]

Heh. My friend's nan's cat used to hide under furniture, let out a plaintive meow, wait for some well-meaning human to investigate face-first, and then go for the eyes or the throat. This wasn't a one-off event. It did it whenever it could get away with it.

Fantastic. And this is why I love cats. :smallbiggrin:

I just don't let them fool me into thinking that they're "nice" :smallcool:

[hamishspence]

Mr Scruffy should probably be thought of as more like a smaller version of Argent:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

a full combatant. A "Nobody hurts my pet!" reaction makes sense- but not a "he was a harmless innocent" one.

[MoonCat]

Mr Scruffy should probably be thought of as more like a smaller version of Argent:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

a full combatant. A "Nobody hurts my pet!" reaction makes sense- but not a "he was a harmless innocent" one.

QFT!QFT!

No one touches the cat, no one injures the cat, but that doesn't mean the cat is defenseless! Why is everyone up in arms?

[Flame of Anor]

QFT!QFT!

No one touches the cat, no one injures the cat, but that doesn't mean the cat is defenseless! Why is everyone up in arms?

To be fair, Mr. Scruffy is a very underpowered animal companion, and paladins' mounts can be more powerful anyhow.

[choryukami]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog

When small defenseless animals get hurt, it hits most people in a soft spot, it really points to the fact that the doer of said deeds is beyond evil.

[Detrinex]

Mr. Scruffy is Shojo, in effect. Evisceratus' evisceration was going to happen anyways, and even though he committed a master-saving and good people-killing act, he's still a cat. SOMEONE has to save him before he dies. Hopefully Rich has that covered.

[martianmister]

I think Scruffy will die for two reasons:

1. Belkar's death is (I hope) near to happen. There is no reason for Scruffy's remain in OotS.

2. As Belkar said in last comic, LG is "joke villains" in eyes of fandom. Prominent characters like Belkar and Scruffy's death would make them more threatening.

[ThePhantasm]

Ugh, I'd hate it if Belkar died just to make a villain look cool.

I think it'd be dramatically anticlimactic for the LG to kill Belkar. I'm still hoping that the Order will be shaken up instead by

a IFCC-controlled V killing Belkar

Which, by the way, could also happen soon, as they view the LG as their pawns.

[martianmister]

It would be cool to see

a Yukyuk-controlled Scraggly killing Belkar

Also, to those people who think Scruffy is a defenseless cat:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html

[krossbow]

It would be cool to see

a Yukyuk-controlled Scraggly killing Belkar

Also, to those people who think Scruffy is a defenseless cat:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html



Defenseless is relative to the threat against an individual; as an example, humans are equipped with horrifically powerful weapons that can devastate the life on worlds, but would be defenseless against the weapon capabilities of any starfaring race (jeff goldbloom's magical hacking skills aside).
A mosquito is defenseless against a bat, a fly is defenseless against a spider, the rest of the world is defenseless against australian wildlife, ect. :smalltongue:

by the same token, Scruffy is "defenseless" against a High level PC with Magical weapons; he just doesn't stand a chance, and any threat he might pose to yuk yuk AND his animal companion is minimal to the point of non-existence.

[Flame of Anor]

Also, to those people who think Scruffy is a defenseless cat:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html

All he's doing is grappling casters and making them fail Concentration checks. Yukyuk isn't a caster.

[G-Man Graves]

While I admit that shooting a cat was basically just to get the audience to hate Yukyuk, I do have a problem with the entire concept of the "Moral Event Horizon". Personal dislike of TvTropes aside, I find the whole idea that an individual is completely beyond redemption to be a rather ridiculous one. Hell, if the Joker was ever to be in a situation when he felt legitimate remorse for all the things that he's done, and actively tried to help the world forever after, I would consider him redeemed. Similarly, if Yukyuk were to be legitimately sorry for preying on a (by all appearances) defenseless cat, he would be redeemed.

So no, he hasn't crossed the "Moral Event Horizon."

[Flame of Anor]

I think Rousseau agrees with you there, so you're in good company. Personally, I think you're technically right, but that there is a certain level of evil, and once a person is past it the chance of their redemption is statistically negligible.

[Gift Jeraff]

Hell, if the Joker was ever to be in a situation when he felt legitimate remorse for all the things that he's done, and actively tried to help the world forever after, I would consider him redeemed. Similarly, if Yukyuk were to be legitimately sorry for preying on a (by all appearances) defenseless cat, he would be redeemed.

So no, he hasn't crossed the "Moral Event Horizon."
I agree with this and Flame's post wholeheartedly.

I always get a little ticked off when someone suggests they'd like to see a character get Snarl'd, especially when it's someone like Belkar or Miko (i.e. there are much worse characters).

[Killer Angel]

Heh. My friend's nan's cat used to hide under furniture, let out a plaintive meow, wait for some well-meaning human to investigate face-first, and then go for the eyes or the throat. This wasn't a one-off event. It did it whenever it could get away with it.

Cats are so lovely pets, aren't they? :smallcool:
(smallcool with sunglasses to protect eyes)

[Asta Kask]

All he's doing is grappling casters and making them fail Concentration checks. Yukyuk isn't a caster.

He's a ranger, so technically he's a caster. :smallbiggrin:

[Tanngrisnir]

He's a ranger, so technically he's a caster. :smallbiggrin:

Only if he stayed in the class long enough to gain spell casting ability. Given that he clearly has rogue levels as well this is not such a certainty.

[Flame of Anor]

And on the subject of the "Moral Event Horizon"--it does exist, even though there isn't a point where you can say anyone after that point is irredeemable. It's a trope, remember. The "Moral Event Horizon" isn't the point past which the character is irredeemable, it's the point past which the audience will call shenanigans if the character is redeemed.

[hamishspence]

Yup- I think it's been mentioned before by some posters, that Anakin's massacre at the Jedi Temple made his "redemption" at the end of Return of the Jedi, seem extremely iffy.

So, for them, it might be said that the massacre was a Moral Event Horizon- despite the fact that, in-universe, he was redeemed at least to some degree.

[G-Man Graves]

Yup- I think it's been mentioned before by some posters, that Anakin's massacre at the Jedi Temple made his "redemption" at the end of Return of the Jedi, seem extremely iffy.

So, for them, it might be said that the massacre was a Moral Event Horizon- despite the fact that, in-universe, he was redeemed at least to some degree.

The way I saw it, what prompted the change in Return is that he saw Luke being tortured to death, and realized that Luke had a life that was just as hard as the one that he had lived prior to turning, and even then was willing to die for the belief that Good was better than Evil. This caused remorse for his own poor decision, and hence a legitimate redemption.

[Mordokai]

He shot a cat. He's my enemy. I will devote my life to building a machine that will suck him out of the comic and make him real so that I can blow him up.

He shot a cat.

Have you seen what cats do their food? I mean, before eating it? I did and let me tell you, it would make you sick.

Make no illusions. Cats are cute and everything, but they are downright bastards. If it wasn't pretty much against the law and if I wouldn't find it morally objective, I'd be out shooting cats myself right now. Little furry bastards deserve to die in pain ten times over.

[Flame of Anor]

Have you seen what cats do their food? I mean, before eating it? I did and let me tell you, it would make you sick.

Make no illusions. Cats are cute and everything, but they are downright bastards. If it wasn't pretty much against the law and if I wouldn't find it morally objective, I'd be out shooting cats myself right now. Little furry bastards deserve to die in pain ten times over.

Cats are, with respect to their brain, one of the most similar animals to humans that exist. They can be downright bastards, but so can humans. I don't think you'd be justified in going out and shooting humans just because a lot of humans are downright bastards.

And I'm confused by your description of cats as "deserving" of death but yourself as finding it "morally objective" (I assume you mean objectionable). If it's morally objectionable, how can they deserve it, and vice versa?

[FatJose]

Cats are, with respect to their brain, one of the most similar animals to humans that exist.
Are you saying top 20? Top 50? They definitely aren't in the top 10. It's the human compulsion to anthropomorphize other species that makes us believe animals think like us. We are also quick to compare ourselves to animals.

Also, I used to be one of those types that thought cats were evil, sadistic monsters that should be destroyed. Then I turned 6 and stopped taking cues from Disney and/or WB animated movies about ridiculously adorable vermin and or dogs.

[derfenrirwolv]

Hell, if the Joker was ever to be in a situation when he felt legitimate remorse for all the things that he's done, and actively tried to help the world forever after, I would consider him redeemed

If someone as evil as the joker SAID they were redeemed and felt remorse i would hope that you'd have a little skepticism (and a lot of ammo)

[G-Man Graves]

Hell, if the Joker was ever to be in a situation when he felt legitimate remorse for all the things that he's done, and actively tried to help the world forever after, I would consider him redeemed

If someone as evil as the joker SAID they were redeemed and felt remorse i would hope that you'd have a little skepticism (and a lot of ammo)

This. It is an important distinction.

[King of Nowhere]

about the moral even horizon, i think it's more of a perception of the public; it's an action that makes the public feel a character as a loathesome bastard, so that no one can feel sad for said character when he dies.

About cats, killing smaller animal is their instinct, you can't blame them for that.
And, some poeple think housecats torture said animals, but that's not true. It's just that they never hunted, and therefore feel compelled to attack those animals (instinct), but don't really knwo what to do with it. They don't know how to kill it, and somethimes they dont even know they are supposed to eat it afterwards.
My parents had a few cats that grew wild (in my family we never bougth cat, we rather adopt them among those who lives on streets). They don't play with their prey, they kill them and eat them. Or they don't kill because they aren't hungry. Or they kill them, and leave them on the carpet as a gift to the humans.

Heh. My friend's nan's cat used to hide under furniture, let out a plaintive meow, wait for some well-meaning human to investigate face-first, and then go for the eyes or the throat. This wasn't a one-off event. It did it whenever it could get away with it.
I'm sure he's playing. If he was serious, you would get seriously wounded. Many cats like to play (and, at least one of mine, used to hit us to signal that he wanted to be left alone), if they really wanted to hurt you they would DO it. I also had some cat who liked to bite me, but they never pressed the teeth. They just liked to play. If I put a cloth around my hand, they'd scratch and bite harder. They were smart enough to recognize when they risked to hurt me, and when they didn't.

And, in the end, i think cats have some similarities to us humans, because they have a wide range of personalities, and because they will give you back what you give to them. If you treat well a cat, the cat will love you. If you treat him poorly, the cat will not love you.
Oh, and a cat will not see you as his mmaster, but rather as a fellow member of the pack. If you earn his respect, he'll see you as the pack leader, at most.
That's my expereince as cat owner.

[ORione]

about the moral even horizon, i think it's more of a perception of the public; it's an action that makes the public feel a character as a loathesome bastard, so that no one can feel sad for said character when he dies.

About cats, killing smaller animal is their instinct, you can't blame them for that.
And, some poeple think housecats torture said animals, but that's not true. It's just that they never hunted, and therefore feel compelled to attack those animals (instinct), but don't really knwo what to do with it. They don't know how to kill it, and somethimes they dont even know they are supposed to eat it afterwards.
My parents had a few cats that grew wild (in my family we never bougth cat, we rather adopt them among those who lives on streets). They don't play with their prey, they kill them and eat them. Or they don't kill because they aren't hungry. Or they kill them, and leave them on the carpet as a gift to the humans.

I'm sure he's playing. If he was serious, you would get seriously wounded. Many cats like to play (and, at least one of mine, used to hit us to signal that he wanted to be left alone), if they really wanted to hurt you they would DO it. I also had some cat who liked to bite me, but they never pressed the teeth. They just liked to play. If I put a cloth around my hand, they'd scratch and bite harder. They were smart enough to recognize when they risked to hurt me, and when they didn't.

And, in the end, i think cats have some similarities to us humans, because they have a wide range of personalities, and because they will give you back what you give to them. If you treat well a cat, the cat will love you. If you treat him poorly, the cat will not love you.
Oh, and a cat will not see you as his mmaster, but rather as a fellow member of the pack. If you earn his respect, he'll see you as the pack leader, at most.
That's my expereince as cat owner.

I agree with everything you just said.

So, with this understanding of the Moral Event Horizon, has Yukyuk crossed it? Not everyone will think so, since some people are cheering him on. As for me and my fellow cat-lovers, I don't know. It would take a lot for him to redeem himself in my eyes at this point. Since he's a LG member, it seems unlikely that he'd go in that direction.

[FatJose]

Oh, and a cat will not see you as his mmaster, but rather as a fellow member of the pack. If you earn his respect, he'll see you as the pack leader, at most.
That's my expereince as cat owner.
I'm assuming you're refering to dogs? Yeah, they don't believe in servant and master. That's more human anthropomorphizing at work. Dog's see you as a dog and the Alpha to Omega ranks people see for pack animals is complex and still mostly unknown. What we do know is that it isn't as clear cut as Master and Slave. Pack animals don't have rank order to be cruel to their "lessers."

Cat's are social creatures but they aren't pack animals.

And as for Yukyuk, you cant cross the Moral Event Horizon if you were that evil almost from strip 1. He didn't fall to those levels of depravity, he was always just that evil. He's probably the closest kobold to Belkar yet, which is good considering this might be the last hurrah. I see Nale and Sabine still being around but I think the LG will be officially done after this arc.

[Flame of Anor]

Are you saying top 20? Top 50? They definitely aren't in the top 10. It's the human compulsion to anthropomorphize other species that makes us believe animals think like us. We are also quick to compare ourselves to animals.

I'm afraid you're incorrect there. Google "cat intelligence" and you'll find many references. Here's one. (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Cat_intelligence) I quote:


According to researchers at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine, the physical structure of human brains and that of cats are very similar; they have the same lobes in the cerebral cortex (the "seat" of intelligence) as humans do. Human brains also function the same way, conveying data via many identical neurotransmitters.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm assuming you're refering to dogs? Yeah, they don't believe in servant and master. That's more human anthropomorphizing at work. Dog's see you as a dog and the Alpha to Omega ranks people see for pack animals is complex and still mostly unknown. What we do know is that it isn't as clear cut as Master and Slave. Pack animals don't have rank order to be cruel to their "lessers."

Cat's are social creatures but they aren't pack animals.



Cats tend to form packs, most stray cats are found in one of those. Unless I'm mmistaking some uses of english words.

And, when i said "master", i didn't mean "the owner of a servant". I was referring to the fact that, while dogs (at least, any dog I've ever seen, and several of my friends have/had dogs) tend to accept the human's autority, cats will see you more as an equal. If you don't like the word autority applied to animals, think that with dogs often the dog is like a children with the human being the adult.
That's why several dog owners complain that cats don't respect/love you, even if that is not the case.
Try to read what i'm trying top communicate, and not look at the technicalities of the methaphora.

[Asta Kask]

"[O]wners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods."


Christopher Hitchens

[Earl William]

I can buy the "monkeysphere" explanation. I guess it's just another reason for me to believe that my own monkeysphere is somehow off. I cared more about the burning slaves, even though they were never even shown on-panel (well, while they were burning, we did see them freed).

And frankly, now I want to see the cat die, just to see the pissed off forumites. Go YukYuk, go!


Me three! Dogs are cooler than cats anyway!

[FatJose]

Cats tend to form packs, most stray cats are found in one of those. Unless I'm mmistaking some uses of english words. They socialize but only domestic cats make a habit of it. Wild cats are very solitary. Dogs will always act like pack animals. And yes, it is a terminology thing. You technically can't a call a group of cats a pack because there is no pack structure to it. Like how group of sheep or geese would be called a flock and not a school.


And, when i said "master", i didn't mean "the owner of a servant". I was referring to the fact that, while dogs (at least, any dog I've ever seen, and several of my friends have/had dogs) tend to accept the human's autority, cats will see you more as an equal. If you don't like the word autority applied to animals, think that with dogs often the dog is like a children with the human being the adult.
That's why several dog owners complain that cats don't respect/love you, even if that is not the case.
Try to read what i'm trying top communicate, and not look at the technicalities of the methaphora.
From this post, I can tell I did read your last statement correctly. I simply disagree with your supposed fact. Dogs aren't comparable to children and their owners to an adult. Dog owners who think that way are pretty much doomed from the start. A dog will not accept authority unless it's been bred to be highly complacent. Many breeds of dog are very strong willed and you have to prove to them you can lead. The relation of child and adult is actually a theory some professionals have for cats. (Domestic cats being playful and social with each other being believed to be the cats being in a semi state of Kitten hood with the human as the mother while wild cats have to learn to grow up and be solitary, self-sufficient creatures)

[krossbow]

If it wasn't pretty much against the law and if I wouldn't find it morally objective, I'd be out shooting cats myself right now. Little furry bastards deserve to die in pain ten times over.



WUT. Seriously, i should just ignore this post but.... wut. Given that almost all the animals that the common domestic cat preys upon are vicious disease carrying species that have a tendency to act parasitically in regards to humanity, I just have a hard time seeing the justification for their evilness. That'd be like yelling at the people in Lovecraft for trying to murder the innocent eldritch monstrosities.



Onto a completely different subject (in regards to other helpless/not-helpless argument):

The thing that you have to realize about cats is that there is a large difference between domestic housecats (of which mr. scruffy is) and naturally occuring species of cats that have not been domesticated (such as bobcats, ect.). House cats have been bred for years, radically altering their genetics for humanities benefit. House cats, due to this, are not ultra refined by evolution, but actually have been "evolved" to be inferior to their original forms (though this differs from breed to breed of course).
Moreover, domestic cats that are raised in human environments are encouraged and taught to live via kitten behavior, as this is the type of behavior humans find pleasant. They are essentially giant toddlers, suffering from a lack of teaching in regards to danger, self preservation, and generally suffer from what could best be described as "naivete" in regards to humans (see mr. scruffy moving towards a large individual such as yuk yuk, when that behavior should not exist in a wild individual). They are the equivilent of humans with mental disorders and DEPEND on humans to protect them (and humans, vis-a-vi also have a duty to do so) due to this incorrect mental coding.




To put this in perspective: Humans are super predators. We eat sharks, prey on whales, and MURDER predators on the top of the food chain, and are BUILT to pursue prey relentlessly, chasing them for extended periods of time that almost no other species can match. But no one would think that a child or an overweight mentally ill-adjusted human is anything but helpless if thrown out into the midst of animals, even with tools.

[martianmister]

by the same token, Scruffy is "defenseless" against a High level PC with Magical weapons; he just doesn't stand a chance, and any threat he might pose to yuk yuk AND his animal companion is minimal to the point of non-existence.


All he's doing is grappling casters and making them fail Concentration checks. Yukyuk isn't a caster.

My point is: he is not more defenseless than other "less powerful" humans.

[Zubzub]

http://www.maniacworld.com/its-too-dangerous-to-go-alone.jpg

Nuff' said.

[willpell]

As I have spoken it, so it has become.

[Adlan]

WUT. Seriously, i should just ignore this post but.... wut. Given that almost all the animals that the common domestic cat preys upon are vicious disease carrying species that have a tendency to act parasitically in regards to humanity, I just have a hard time seeing the justification for their evilness. That'd be like yelling at the people in Lovecraft for trying to murder the innocent eldritch monstrosities.

Actually, in places wghere the cat is not native, they often prey on rare local species of mammal or bird, and wreak havoc on their population. In the USA, the Feral Cat problem is pretty big, I know many people who chose to kill them personally rather than use posion or traps. You deigration of cat's prey as 'vicious disease carrying species' ignores the fact that an unchecked feral cat problem is also vicious and disease carrying.


The point of this annecdote? Spay and Neuter your pets!

[VetMichael]

Is this so much more horrible than the slaughter of the Sapphire Guard, the familicide of the black dragons, the torturing of O-Chul for sport, etc?

Worse than the slaughter of the Sapphire Guard? In terms of scale, sure the Guard was much worse, BUT the Guard had the ability to fight back and was an antagonistic opponent to the Hobgoblin horde, so...
YES shooting a cat is worse.

Worse than the familicide of the black dragons? Well, considering that in 99% of cases, black dragons are evil (okay, except possibly in Eberron) and exist to ensure misery, subjugation, and tyranny. Compare this to how many cats have subjugated human populations, tortured other sentient beings or otherwise acted in a not nice way(okay, except possibly in 'Cats & Dogs' and 'Cats & Dogs II: Revenge of Kitty Galore')?...
YES shooting a cat is worse.

Worse than the torturing of O-Chul for sport? Hmmmm....kind of a stumper here. On the face, O-Chul is Good and Xykon is Evil so, yes on its face it is NOT worse than shooting a cat. Mr. Scruffy, however, is not known as an antagonist to the Kobold, meaning Mr. Scuffy is an 'innocent' and further meaning he (YukYuk) was acting out of sadistic urges and took an opportunity to commit a truly evil act. Therefore...
BOTH O-Chul's torture and shooting Mr. Scruffy are equally Evil acts.

Now tot he MATH! We have two 'YES' and one 'Sorta' making it a 2.5/3 score on the 'Evil Act' scale
let's see...

:confused:carry the one....

:frown:divide by the square root of Pi...


:smallamused:factor in the weight of an Angel's dandruff...


Ummm... yes, the assault and battery of Mr. Scruffy outweighs the deaths of dozens of human Paladins, millions of Black Dragons, and is similar to the torture of O-Chul.

*WHEW* Thank the gods for science!:smallsmile:

[VetMichael]

Actually, in places wghere the cat is not native, they often prey on rare local species of mammal or bird, and wreak havoc on their population.
Isn't this true about all invasive species, though? Snakehead fish, kudzu, Mediterranean fruit fly, Japanese beetle, Lion Fish, etc. ALL force out native populations and cause irreparable damage so your argument here is rather weak as the detriment to habitat by feral cats is not out of proportion to other non-native species.

In the USA, the Feral Cat problem is pretty big, I know many people who chose to kill them personally rather than use posion or traps.
Surprisingly enough, I do not feel this makes your argument any better nor do I find anything admirable in people 'personally' killing feral cats. I wonder how many of these people who take it upon themselves to purge the feral cat population have gone out of their way to combat other non-native populations (such as those I've mentioned above); if it's none, then their act is not altruism, but straight-up psychopathy or latent sadism...just sayin' [/QUOTE]

You deigration of cat's prey as 'vicious disease carrying species' ignores the fact that an unchecked feral cat problem is also vicious and disease carrying.
Except historically speaking feral cats never carried the bubonic plague, the septicemic plague, nor the pneumonic plague. For example, in the 14th century when Europeans - in an attempt to remove Satan's influence from society and end the Black Death - began killing cats (falsely associated with Circe, magic and thus Satan), the result was an actual INCREASE in the prevalence of the disease in cities. Less cats meant more rats which meant the microbes being carried by rats were more easily and more often transferred to humans by flea bites. Also, rats and mice (classic 'vermin') are also responsible for crop damage, defecating in stored grains, and have - historically - been unwelcome additions to urban life (ever hear of the cats of NY's sewers? or restaurants being shut down because of being overrun by cats?). Therefore, mice and rats ARE (at least historically) a 'vicious disease-carrying species' and cats are justified in slaughtering each and every one of their furry butts.


The point of this annecdote? Spay and Neuter your pets!
Absolutely!

Now, if YukYuk had shot a DOG.....I'd totally be all in your corner <JK> :smallwink:

[LittleWizard]

It's quite simple to see that this is where Belkar will die.

Scruffy will be killed or nearly killed by Yukyuk. Belkar will find out and begin the revenge. Belkar will find out Yukyuk is Chaotic Evil, kill him, then kill himself just to follow Yukyuk and make his eternity even worse.

[Asta Kask]

I'm more interested in if Belkar has acted like a responsible cat.owner and neutered the cat.

[martianmister]

Worse than the slaughter of the Sapphire Guard? In terms of scale, sure the Guard was much worse, BUT the Guard had the ability to fight back and was an antagonistic opponent to the Hobgoblin horde, so...
YES shooting a cat is worse.

And Scruffy don't have the ability to fight back? He killed a human in one move before and his killing the kobold or his dog is'nt really farfetched.

[veti]

Worse than the torturing of O-Chul for sport? Hmmmm....kind of a stumper here. On the face, O-Chul is Good and Xykon is Evil so, yes on its face it is NOT worse than shooting a cat.

Just to be clear about this...

Are you saying that if a Good character tortured an Evil character for sport, that would be A-OK?

Apart from that, I agree absolutely. I'd like to think that Belkar will wreak a more-than-usually horrible revenge on this particular kobold. But there's also this sense of foreboding, since the last panel of #792.

[Caractacus]

Worse than the slaughter of the Sapphire Guard? In terms of scale, sure the Guard was much worse, BUT the Guard had the ability to fight back and was an antagonistic opponent to the Hobgoblin horde, so...
YES shooting a cat is worse.


I am assuming that this is only 'in-Oots-universe' logic, right?

Otherwise, the next murderer to be sentenced for killing any same-sex adult person can make a reasonable claim to be treated as if they had killed a cat, given their ability to fight back.

Personally, I would be livid if I thought for one moment that if I am beaten to death somewhere by someone, that that act was less evil than when, that morning, he drowned a cat. :smallannoyed:


Not sure about this:


I wonder how many of these people who take it upon themselves to purge the feral cat population have gone out of their way to combat other non-native populations (such as those I've mentioned above); if it's none, then their act is not altruism, but straight-up psychopathy or latent sadism...just sayin'

Here, if that person also killed rats, they can avoid the charge of psychopathy and/ or latent sadism. I am dubious about that in both directions - that killing rats, too, removes the charge, or that killing cats proves the presence of one of the two vices mentioned. I would imagine that the isue is here not whether a cat is killed or not, but whether the person gains pleasure from the act of killing. THAT, surely, is conclusively evil.

Yukyuk seems to enjoy it - he's evil through and through... Let's see him die! Yay!

Wait...oh... :smalltongue:

[VetMichael]

And Scruffy don't have the ability to fight back? He killed a human in one move before and his killing the kobold or his dog is'nt really farfetched.

That was a 3rd Ed joke; according to the rules, it was theoretical that a common housecat could kill a 1st level commoner (remember, he said that he was only 10 xp away from his 2nd level of commoner). Besides, he's just a kitty-cat! What non-evil character would ever shoot a kitty-cat??? It's just barbarous.


Just to be clear about this...

Are you saying that if a Good character tortured an Evil character for sport, that would be A-OK?

Well, how Evil is the Evil character? If the Evil character was a CEO for Bank of America, Bear Stearns, or AIG then it's cool. but then that begs the obvious question, can - or better yet, would - a Good character torture someone? Obviously not or they would no longer be good, then it would be an Evil character torturing an Evil character which, as we all know from **** Cheney's shooting of his own lawyer, is Okay if the victim apologizes publicly afterward.:smallbiggrin:

[Caractacus]

Well, how Evil is the Evil character? If the Evil character was a CEO for Bank of America, Bear Stearns, or AIG then it's cool. but then that begs the obvious question, can - or better yet, would - a Good character torture someone? Obviously not or they would no longer be good, then it would be an Evil character torturing an Evil character which, as we all know from **** Cheney's shooting of his own lawyer, is Okay if the victim apologizes publicly afterward.:smallbiggrin:


Ooh, priceless! :smallbiggrin:

[Ceaon]

"[O]wners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods."


Christopher Hitchens

I'm quoting your quote because it's awesome.

Also, while shooting a kitty is terrible, it is the fact that it is meant to evoke shock from the reader (because of the irony of Belkar's statement) that manages to make it as evil as it is.

[Adicted To]

1 well known, lovable, white fluffy cat being attacked is a tragedy.
30 something unknown slaves being burned alive off stage is a statistic.

Nice Quote of Stalin

[Adicted To]

I just checked something and forgive me if it has been mentioned before but Mr Scruffy can be raised from the dead. Belkar is willing to do anything for Mr Scruffy even if that means coughing up 5000gp of diamonds to raise him

Assuming of course the same rules for raise dead are used by OOTS as in D&D.

Raise dead spell description in D&D:
“You restore life to a deceased creature.”

It says “creature” meaning that a cat can also be raised.

:belkar:

[VetMichael]

I am assuming that this is only 'in-Oots-universe' logic, right?

Otherwise, the next murderer to be sentenced for killing any same-sex adult person can make a reasonable claim to be treated as if they had killed a cat, given their ability to fight back.

Personally, I would be livid if I thought for one moment that if I am beaten to death somewhere by someone, that that act was less evil than when, that morning, he drowned a cat. :smallannoyed:

Why just same-sex adult? Why not opposite-sex adult? ;) Of course, it IS the OOTS/D&D Universe we're talking about, if it was Warhammer 40K then it'd have to be a horde of Space Kittens or something.



Not sure about this:



Here, if that person also killed rats, they can avoid the charge of psychopathy and/ or latent sadism. I am dubious about that in both directions - that killing rats, too, removes the charge, or that killing cats proves the presence of one of the two vices mentioned. I would imagine that the isue is here not whether a cat is killed or not, but whether the person gains pleasure from the act of killing. THAT, surely, is conclusively evil.

Yukyuk seems to enjoy it - he's evil through and through... Let's see him die! Yay!

Wait...oh... :smalltongue:

Sociopaths claim not to feel pleasure when killing - in fact most claim no feelings at all other than that of the desire to completely control other beings. Just sayin'. Besides, we're talking about harming cats here! Clearly that's EVIL (Da-da-DAAAAAAAAA!).

[Caractacus]

Of course, it IS the OOTS/D&D Universe we're talking about, if it was Warhammer 40K then it'd have to be a horde of Space Kittens or something.

Mmmm...space kittens. :smallwink:

Hang on, did you mean felines? Oh...:smallfrown:


Besides, we're talking about harming cats here! Clearly that's EVIL (Da-da-DAAAAAAAAA!).

Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the kitties of WAR! :smalltongue:

[Luklan]

In 8th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html), Oracle's memory charm didn't affected the donkey (a normal animal), but Scruffy is affected by same charm. That support Scruffy's being an animal companion.

Uhh. As far as I know, they took the cat up to the room to see the Oracle, while they left the donkey at the door. >_> Why would you cast a memory charm on a donkey to cover something it wasn't involved in?


And Scruffy don't have the ability to fight back? He killed a human in one move before and his killing the kobold or his dog is'nt really farfetched.

You mean the joke about how cats in D&D 3/3.5 can defeat a level 1 Commoner due to the stats they have applies to Mid-To-High Level ADventurer Kobolds with Riding Dogs? Really?

Also, proof of the stats: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm

The average first level commoner has 10 AC, +0 AB, and 2 HP. Cats have 2 HP, 14 AC and +4 AB. Based on pure statisitcs, the cat wins. >_>

The average mid-to-high level adventurer kobold has something like 20+ AC and +15 AB and 100 HP >_>

[martianmister]

Uhh. As far as I know, they took the cat up to the room to see the Oracle, while they left the donkey at the door. >_> Why would you cast a memory charm on a donkey to cover something it wasn't involved in?

Why would you cast a memory charm on a normal cat? And memory charm is looks "automatic" to me.


You mean the joke about how cats in D&D 3/3.5 can defeat a level 1 Commoner due to the stats they have applies to Mid-To-High Level ADventurer Kobolds with Riding Dogs? Really?

1. If that's part of same game system (which whole OotS is based on) how is that make it anymore "joke" than other game mechanics?

2. Actually, he did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) pretty good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html) against someone like Tsukiko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html).

[Adicted To]

2. Actually, he did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) pretty good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html) against someone like Tsukiko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html).

That doesn't count. It was a sneak attack made by Belkar.

[Luklan]

Why would you cast a memory charm on a normal cat? And memory charm is looks "automatic" to me.

1. If that's part of same game system (which whole OotS is based on) how is that make it anymore "joke" than other game mechanics?

2. Actually, he did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) pretty good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html) against someone like Tsukiko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html).

1. I also disproved my own knowledge by looking further back into the past, and they left Mr Scruffy with the cart, so there's that. What's the point of casting it on an animal companion, though? It's not like rangers or druids get the ability to talk to their companions the way V talks to his Familiar. >_>

2. Because the game mechanics don't often end up with stupid things like cats disembowling humans? Most of the game mechanics try to keep things as real as possible, but cats just don't kill people like that. That's the joke. >_> That I've had to explain this probably says it all, though...

3. You mean the surprise attack by Belkar involving throwing the cat at Tsukiko's face with the express purpose of keeping her distracted is on par with a one-on-one fight between the cat, and a kobold riding a dog with a crossbow?

[martianmister]

What's the point of casting it on an animal companion, though? It's not like rangers or druids get the ability to talk to their companions the way V talks to his Familiar. >_>


Who knows why. My point is still same...


2. Because the game mechanics don't often end up with stupid things like cats disembowling humans?

If that's happened within this story, that means it's part of the story. Joke element doesn't make it any less canon than rest of the plot. Also he's an animal comanion, not a normal cat.


3. You mean the surprise attack by Belkar involving throwing the cat at Tsukiko's face with the express purpose of keeping her distracted is on par with a one-on-one fight between the cat, and a kobold riding a dog with a crossbow?

Yes? Because we don't really know anything about Kobold and his pet's levels. Also, he didn't just distracted her, he pretty much disabled her from fighting and escaped from her attack without any fuss.