Belkar is not dying any time soon (spoilers)

[GSFB]

People seem to be in agreement Belkar is about to be killed by a kobold.

Many strips ago, Roy said Belkar had like seven weeks. That is seven weeks of time in-comic, not in-real-life. The OotS hasn't been adventuring for seven weeks since then. It was a short trip into town, and they have only been in town a few days.

When Belkar does die, we will be at or near the end of the comic. I predict Belkar's death will be integral to saving the world from the Snarl. He isn't going to die in a throw away battle with second (third?) tier bad guys long before many other plot points are resolved.

(EDIT: for some reason there appears to be a double-post, but the other post is a link to a blank screen. Technical help appreciated!)

[R. Shackleford]

I kinda figured he'd die and be raised as an undead something, and just continue with the party.

[martianmister]

Many strips ago, Roy said Belkar had like seven weeks.

Belkar don't had seven weeks. He will die withing these seven weeks. And according to Rich, there is only five weeks left till Azurite new year.

[Dr.Epic]

When Belkar does die, we will be at or near the end of the comic. I predict Belkar's death will be integral to saving the world from the Snarl. He isn't going to die in a throw away battle with second (third?) tier bad guys long before many other plot points are resolved.

Um, why? What determines he has to die at the end and not sooner?

[MoonCat]

He can die any time within the seven weeks.

[Caractacus]

When Belkar does die, we will be at or near the end of the comic. I predict Belkar's death will be integral to saving the world from the Snarl. He isn't going to die in a throw away battle with second (third?) tier bad guys long before many other plot points are resolved.

Um...this would require that the rest of the entire plot be resolved in 5-7 weeks of in-world time.

I find that very hard to believe...

[ThePhantasm]

People seem to be in agreement Belkar is about to be killed by a kobold.

Many strips ago, Roy said Belkar had like seven weeks. That is seven weeks of time in-comic, not in-real-life. The OotS hasn't been adventuring for seven weeks since then. It was a short trip into town, and they have only been in town a few days.

When Belkar does die, we will be at or near the end of the comic. I predict Belkar's death will be integral to saving the world from the Snarl. He isn't going to die in a throw away battle with second (third?) tier bad guys long before many other plot points are resolved.

(EDIT: for some reason there appears to be a double-post, but the other post is a link to a blank screen. Technical help appreciated!)

Belkar is supposed to die within seven weeks, not at the end of seven weeks. So he could die any moment now.

[GSFB]

Um...this would require that the rest of the entire plot be resolved in 5-7 weeks of in-world time.

And??? With magical travel and divine interventions possible, there is no reason why 5 weeks is not enough time to find and possibly destroy 2 gates, do battle with Xykon, deal with the IFCC and resolve the Snarl.


Um, why? What determines he has to die at the end and not sooner?

Because he is a major character and in a well-written story he will be relevant to the resolution. Also because he is entertaining and gives the author a device for humor (it IS still a comic strip) that he won't want to just throw away until he is ready to end the story.

[R. Shackleford]

And??? With magical travel and divine interventions possible, there is no reason why 5 weeks is not enough time to find and possibly destroy 2 gates, do battle with Xykon, deal with the IFCC and resolve the Snarl.



Because he is a major character and in a well-written story he will be relevant to the resolution. Also because he is entertaining and gives the author a device for humor (it IS still a comic strip) that he won't want to just throw away until he is ready to end the story.

You're still neglecting the fact that this is a setting where characters can die and can come back as undead, and where the oracle making the prophecies knows that they're worded vaguely.

Belkar's death doesn't mean that he'd be out of the story, at all, especially with divine intervention, Xykon, the IFCC and other magical forces you mentioned. Death is cheap when you're a PC. It's perfectly possible for him to still function as a bloodthirsty little god'o'war without breathing.

[GSFB]

Belkar's death doesn't mean that he'd be out of the story

I could be wrong, but my impression from all the previous discussions and words from the Giant himself is that when Belkar dies, he is gone for good - no possibility of ever coming back, not even by the Gods. Sounds to me like "death by Snarl."

[Dr.Epic]

Because he is a major character and in a well-written story he will be relevant to the resolution. Also because he is entertaining and gives the author a device for humor (it IS still a comic strip) that he won't want to just throw away until he is ready to end the story.

What? Not necessarily. Belkar being a major character doesn't mean he has to be around for the entire comic. Also, why does he have to be relevant to the resolution? Sure he's entertaining, but there are other characters that also provide humor and killing off Belkar won't rob the comic of this. Really, there's no reason or proof Belkar has to stay around until the very end.

[weeping eagle]

Because he is a major character and in a well-written story he will be relevant to the resolution. Also because he is entertaining and gives the author a device for humor (it IS still a comic strip) that he won't want to just throw away until he is ready to end the story.You must have a pretty high opinion of your own storytelling ability.

[Gift Jeraff]

I could be wrong, but my impression from all the previous discussions and words from the Giant himself is that when Belkar dies, he is gone for good - no possibility of ever coming back, not even by the Gods. Sounds to me like "death by Snarl."
I don't think the Giant's ever commented on Belkar's death, except one time where he pointed out how much time has passed since Roy mentioned the 7 weeks.

There's never been any mention that not even gods could bring him back, just that he's "not long for this world," which pretty much rules out the "becomes undead" theory. Unless it's a type of undead which doesn't have his soul, but then what's the point?

Of course there's still the occasional "becomes undead and stays on the planet within the planet" idea, but I'm not a fan of that.

[R. Shackleford]

I could be wrong, but my impression from all the previous discussions and words from the Giant himself is that when Belkar dies, he is gone for good - no possibility of ever coming back, not even by the Gods. Sounds to me like "death by Snarl."

I'd actually never heard that.

I'd still be wary though, even an author that WoG's things may still go back on their word when the time comes, especially since the Giant has apparently been known for throwing off expectations.

Though I am expecting one of them to be eaten by the Snarl eventually.

[Doug Lampert]

You're still neglecting the fact that this is a setting where characters can die and can come back as undead, and where the oracle making the prophecies knows that they're worded vaguely.

Belkar's death doesn't mean that he'd be out of the story, at all, especially with divine intervention, Xykon, the IFCC and other magical forces you mentioned. Death is cheap when you're a PC. It's perfectly possible for him to still function as a bloodthirsty little god'o'war without breathing.

He'll draw his last breath, Ever, is fixed nicely by that theory.

What about "He's not long for this world?"

[jidasfire]

Every time Belkar gets a papercut or someone looks at him sideways, the board lights up with absolute certainty of his impending death. It was just like this whenever Vaarsuvius spoke a string of four words together. If the prophecy is to be believed, yes, Belkar's doom is coming, but guessing every time there's even a tiny risk of him dying doesn't mean your guess means anything. I don't want Belkar to die, but at the same time, I kinda wish he would, just to end the speculation.

Major characters, that is, characters with arcs, in Order of the Stick die as a result of their personal choices. Roy, for example, chose to fight Xykon alone, and chose to reject Xykon's offer to put their duel off for a few years, essentially to be the hero, and as a consequence, Xykon killed him. Therkla (not major, but had an arc to be sure), chose to protect Kubota and Elan instead of picking a side, and as a result, she was killed. Miko chose to see a sign that was not there in order to justify her behavior in the throne room, and so she was essentially killed by her own hand. If and when Belkar dies, it will be a result of some major choice he makes about his life. Right now, Belkar is trying out a new philosophy, but it has yet to really be put to the test, but when it is, he will have to make a choice. I can't say who or what will do the deed, but I can say his death won't happen until this choice, whatever it is, is made.

[G-Man Graves]

but this "extended death scene" is starting to wear thin. Time to give him the great thumbs down, the exile of the world, the White Jade Pavilion, and all that. Kill him, already, and be done with it -- and the kobold would make dramatic sense IMO as well.

Except there IS no "extended death scene". It's the community who's been saying "Oh, he's fighting the bugs, he's gonna die! Oh, he's in a bar fight/got arrested, he's gonna die! Oh, he's in the arena, he's gonna die! Oh, the LG is back, he's gonna die! Oh, he's carrying a knife, he's gonna slip and die! Oh, he stubbed his toe, he's gonna die!"

There is very little indication that Belkar will die before Roy's predicted time, and frankly, to have him killed by anything other than Team Evil would be lame as hell. Considering Xykon is most likely going to be on his way soon, this is not an unlikely possibility.

[Aurenthal]

Well... he could die be4 the northern new year, not necesarily the azurite. Besides, Azure city no longer exists

[veti]

Roy spent several months dead (not in this world, not breathing, not enjoying birthday cakes etc.), and it didn't keep him out of the strip or the story.

Why do we assume Belkar's death should be the last we see of him?

[MoonCat]

Roy spent several months dead (not in this world, not breathing, not enjoying birthday cakes etc.), and it didn't keep him out of the strip or the story.

Why do we assume Belkar's death should be the last we see of him?

Because the Giant rarely repeats anything bigger than a running gag. He's also not likely to do another time skip either.

[CaptainIreland]

Besides, Azure city no longer exists

Argh.

Even if you wanted to say this, the timekeeping could still work as long as someone was counting from the same starting point.

[Gurgeh]

Well... he could die be4 the northern new year, not necesarily the azurite. Besides, Azure city no longer exists
No, that's not the case - the prediction wasn't that he'd die around the new year, it was that he'd be dead within a year of the time of prediction - which happened to be conveniently close to the Azurite new year, so that's being used as a rough ETA.

Personally, I think it would make perfect sense for Belkar to bite the dust against the Linear Guild. There are plenty of ways for it to play out, and remember: third time's the charm. The kobolds can't always lose. ;)

[Talya]

I'm going to laugh so hard when at the end of the comic, all the belkar-haters are still complaining that the dirty little bastard ain't gone yet.

[Gift Jeraff]

Because the Giant rarely repeats anything bigger than a running gag. He's also not likely to do another time skip either.
Who said anything about time skips? He means we'll probably see Belkar in the afterlife.

[G-Man Graves]

Well, then, you're agreeing with my point, because this IS the extended death scene. Except the annoying part isn't what you're saying, but instead the "he's not really going to die, the Oracle is wrong" drivel.

No, a death scene is when death is absolutely imminent. Luke taking off Vader's Helmet, Theoden looking up at Eowyn, stuff like that. This is the completely normal stuff that leads up to that scene.




Sorry to burst your bubble, but Roy is not the Oracle, and seven weeks is the maximum time to live. He can easily die before then, as that is just the hard outer limit of survival, and in any case, Roy's prediction is nothing more than a vague guess, not an oracular pronouncement.

Okay, fine, but there is no reason to assume that he dies in two weeks, anymore than there is to assume he lives out the full seven weeks.


And just why, exactly, would it be "lame as hell"? :smallconfused: Having him die heroically fighting Xykon would be dull because it would be so stereotypical. Giving him an unexpected but satisfying death sooner would be much preferable, IMO.

Some things become stereotypes for a reason; because they are satisfying. Most of the things that people expect to kill Belkar are bottom tier villains. Why would it be better for [insert kobold here] to kill Belkar than a major, established villain?

Over all, I think the whole prophecy regarding Belkar has been detrimental to the comic as a whole. People know he's going to die, so there's really no dramatic tension for him. That has been replaced with endless comments of "I think [new threat in latest strip] is going to kill Belkar, the little jerk is due."

[FujinAkari]

Who said anything about time skips? He means we'll probably see Belkar in the afterlife.

Yep, just like we saw Mik- ooooh, wait.

Roy's afterlife had story-changing effects, there is no reason to follow Belkar except possibly if he has an interaction with the IFCC

[G-Man Graves]

Yep, just like we saw Mik- ooooh, wait.


Yes, because a protagonist that has been in the comic since the beginning is really comparable to an antagonist that was in it for maybe two hundred, and was designed to be hated. No differences in treatment there.

[veti]

Because the Giant rarely repeats anything bigger than a running gag. He's also not likely to do another time skip either.

As against that argument: from commentary in 'NCftPB':


[J]ust so there's no misunderstanding: Belkar is a protagonist of OOTS, regardless of his alignment. The strip will continue to follow him even if he leaves the OOTS. Heck, if Miko had killed Belkar, we probably would have had a few strips showing Belkar in the Afterlife before he was brought back.

I'm not even going to try to list the variety of ways in which a dead Belkar could continue to play an active part in the story, even if he dies sooner rather than later.

[MoonCat]

Who said anything about time skips? He means we'll probably see Belkar in the afterlife.

I know no one did, I was just illustrating another thing that most likely won't be repeated. The Giant is good at what he does.


As against that argument: from commentary in 'NCftPB':

I'm not even going to try to list the variety of ways in which a dead Belkar could continue to play an active part in the story, even if he dies sooner rather than later.

Ooh, I hadn't seen that, thank you. Although the Giant has changed since all the way back then, and the prophecy wasn't involved back then either (prophecies always make stuff Serious Business :smallwink:)

[Ping Pong Along]

What Belkar is saying in the last panel of 792 is very important when you think about it. This is round 3 with the LG and the first two fights weren't too rough. At this point, they weren't viewed as a real threat. You can see with their reintroduction how they have been built up to formidable villains once again (or for the first time). I'm not saying Belkar is necessarily going to die in the fight with the LG or Yukyuk, but it would be a very effective way of making them a serious enemy.

[harmsc12]

I think Belkar is totally going to get Worfed to death.

[GSFB]

There isn't a damn thing Belkar can do against Xykon except die futilely in one or two rounds

Except, as we learned first from Roy taking on Xykon 1 on 1 and then V taking on Xykon 1 on 1, for OotS to beat Xykon, they need to work as a team - and Belkar is part of the team.

Also, Xykon is NOT the primary evil. He is the big bad NPC, but there is also the great mystery of the Snarl, which is believed to have killed not just characters but entire pantheons - permanently, forever, no resurrection.

My prediction, from the beginning of the "Belkar will die" comics, has been and will continue to be, the Snarl kills Belkar, and it will be because Belkar sacrifices himself for the greater good - an essential character growth, in line with his mark of justice, that makes a good story. Killing Belkar before then essentially throws away everything about him and his transformation. Any idiot can go into a rage over seeing someone he cares about get hurt - especially when he just saw his friend raised from the dead and knows that if he loses a fight he can use the revolving door. But it takes a HERO to sacrifice himself in a manner from which he knows THERE IS NO RETURN in order to save others. And that transformation from evil (yes, even Giant has emphatically said that Belkar, at least prior to mark of justice, was kilo-nazi evil) to hero is a story worth reading.

Anything less wouldn't be worth reading, and I think Giant believes that, too.

[FujinAkari]

Yes, because a protagonist that has been in the comic since the beginning is really comparable to an antagonist that was in it for maybe two hundred, and was designed to be hated. No differences in treatment there.

Well... thats all nice and good, but none of this addressed the point I was actually making :P Seriously, the fact remains that Belkar's death will be the end of him unless events in his afterlife will have an effect on the main plot. We won't keep seeing him just 'cause.

Also: Miko was never designed to be hated, not sure where you got that idea...

[factotum]

Many strips ago, Roy said Belkar had like seven weeks. That is seven weeks of time in-comic, not in-real-life. The OotS hasn't been adventuring for seven weeks since then. It was a short trip into town, and they have only been in town a few days.


A short trip into town? They had to take a ship from the island to Sandsedge, they then spent an unknown amount of time heading into the desert to find the false location of Girard's Gate, and a further unknown amount of time getting out of the desert and searching towns and cities for clues about the *real* location of the gate. All that alone could easily have taken weeks, so where's this "short trip into town" stuff come from? :smallconfused:

[Spleen_]

Also: Miko was never designed to be hated, not sure where you got that idea...

Miko was, as far as I can tell, designed specifically to invoke the "obnoxious, overzealous, lawful stupid Paladin" player type that we all know and... dislike. She had all the obstructionism of the bad guys while retaining none of their humor or nuance. Not only was her personality abrasive to virtually every other character she came across, including her own allies and mentors, but she didn't even learn her big lesson come the end of her story arc. And just look at the madness she causes on the forums (meta!).

I think it's pretty clear what sort of reactions she was meant to invoke from the reader.

[FujinAkari]

I think it's pretty clear what sort of reactions she was meant to invoke from the reader.

In the commentary of No Cure for the Paladin Blues Rich says: I initially designed the inn sequence to be a section where Roy attempts to woo Miko but is ultimately rejected. However, every strip I wrote Miko came off more abrasive and unlikeable than I intended, and it made Roy's planned courtship make him seem pathetic if he was still interested in her, so the story became one where Roy rejects the idea of Miko.

this is going from memory, but the gist and core of the quote is that the initial inception of Miko was meant to be far more amiable than what we ended up with... so clearly she wasn't designed to be hated. :)

[hamishspence]

In War & XPs, I think it's mentioned that some things- such as Miko's fall- had been planned from her first appearence, though.

[Rajhiim]

Hehe, this thread delivers.

Ok, here is my two copper pieces...

We have to ask ourselves is Belkar a "main character" or a "supporting character" - that determines how "epic" a death should be IF the Giant is playing by those rules...... which, frankly, I don't think he's playing by any rules but his own. So reaching into dramatic literary formula only goes as far as frustrating the arguement.

Sadly, I know the truth... I got to see the storyboard -- and if you really want to know:

Belkar will die at the exact moment.... the Giant deems it so.

He could just off him in the middle of a strip with him choking on a chicken bone. He could have the Red Queen land on him... splat! Or he could have Belkar fight the Snarl (although it would be a brief scene!)

Speculation is fun and makes for good discussion -- but no one (save the Giant) can prove anything. If we've learned nothing over the last 792 strips -- the Giant is quite good at keeping his cards close and surprising us.

**and in case it's not obvious, no I didn't really see any storyboard =D **

[FujinAkari]

In War & XPs, I think it's mentioned that some things- such as Miko's fall- had been planned from her first appearence, though.

Oh, absolutely. Miko's role within the comic was all planned from the start, but her personality ended up starkly different than how Rich initially intended.

[G-Man Graves]

{{scrubbed}}



Because, I don't know, dying trying to save Mr. Scruffy's life would be a pretty satisfying and dramatic way for him to go? Rather than just another fly swatted idly in passing by Xykon? There isn't a damn thing Belkar can do against Xykon except die futilely in one or two rounds, whereas the kobold is an opponent more his size and can produce a fight that will be more memorable than just being squished anticlimactically by the epic level lich.

It's not about [insert kobold here], it's about Belkar sacrificing himself to save the only creature he cares about. I think this scene would be better than just impaling himself on a Xykon meteor swarm, myself. And until I see otherwise, I think that's being set up at this very moment.

Except now it's you missing the point. Except it's not my point, it's the point of the last two arcs where a character went one on one against Xykon. Belkar won't be alone when he goes against Xykon. He's going to be supporting Roy.

And I think it would just be completely appropriate for Belkar to be killed defending the team that he has only recently begun to try and actively help. But that's just my opinion, so feel free to disregard it.

[SPoD]

And I think it would just be completely appropriate for Belkar to be killed defending the team that he has only recently begun to try and actively help.

Exactly; what if Belkar dies defending a fallen Roy while Durkon heals him? What if the entire party is being crushed, Belkar has a chance to escape with his cat (or switch sides!) and chooses to stab Xykon in the eye socket instead? Then, even if Xykon just swats him and kills him at that point, it would still be a valid culmination of Belkar's character arc. Dying randomly at the hands of a third-string kobold would not be.

[Gurgeh]

That scenario could work just as well right here, though; the Order is on the ropes as it is, and we haven't seen Nale and Sabine yet (not to mention any hypothetical new evil opposite for Durkon). It's entirely feasible that Belkar could end up being in exactly the kind of run-away-or-die-saving-your-friends situation you've just described right here.

Equally, it's also possible that we're just going to see karma catching up with him in spite of his gaming the system. In Belkar's case, it doesn't really matter who kills him - he's always seen things as himself against the world. Claiming that Belkar's exempt from death simply because his hypothetical murderer isn't a big-shot villain is silly, really; if anything, it makes more sense for Belkar to die at the hands of a relative nobody than for him to be killed by Xykon. If Belkar gets zapped by Team Evil then the scene will be all about them; if he's killed by a nobody then it will all be about Belkar.

Besides, I don't think it's likely that Team Evil will be making an appearance soon enough to validate the Oracle's prediction. We have a confirmed location for Xykon not very far in the past: Sunken Valley, quite possibly hoping to get a fix on his phylactery. I seriously doubt that the plot could stretch to accommodate a big showdown with Xykon and Redcloak right on the heels of the Linear Guild - it would feel horribly rushed, if nothing else, and it would basically reduce Girard's and Kraagor's gates to whistle-stop tours.

[hamishspence]

Oh, absolutely. Miko's role within the comic was all planned from the start, but her personality ended up starkly different than how Rich initially intended.

I doubt the difference was all that stark- to fulfill her role as Shojo's killer, and to go off the rails after that- she needs to have the same self-obsessed belief that she's specially chosen by the gods.

She might have increased in abrasiveness, but that doesn't mean her fundamental personality changed all that much- just the way she expressed it.

[G-Man Graves]

That scenario could work just as well right here, though; the Order is on the ropes as it is, and we haven't seen Nale and Sabine yet (not to mention any hypothetical new evil opposite for Durkon). It's entirely feasible that Belkar could end up being in exactly the kind of run-away-or-die-saving-your-friends situation you've just described right here.

Why do people keep saying the Order is losing here? Haley is the only person out of the fight, and that has a decent chance of being quickly remedied. Roy and V are both engaged in fights that they have a perfectly legitamite chance of winning, Belkar is safe, Durkon, one of the more powerful members, is similarly safe, and likely with Malak, an even more powerful cleric. And finally, the Linears are in the middle of a city that treats them with extreme hostility, and have two high level characters, the order, and a dragon with legitamite reasons to murder them.

Now, I'm as much a fan of Nale as anybody, and quite a bit more than many of the people here, but he is not winning yet.

[ThePhantasm]

Why do people keep saying the Order is losing here? Haley is the only person out of the fight, and that has a decent chance of being quickly remedied. Roy and V are both engaged in fights that they have a perfectly legitamite chance of winning, Belkar is safe, Durkon, one of the more powerful members, is similarly safe, and likely with Malak, an even more powerful cleric. And finally, the Linears are in the middle of a city that treats them with extreme hostility, and have two high level characters, the order, and a dragon with legitamite reasons to murder them.

Now, I'm as much a fan of Nale as anybody, and quite a bit more than many of the people here, but he is not winning yet.

Not only that, we don't have any proof that Nale and Sabine are even nearby. This part of the Guild could be greatly outnumbered by the Order for all we know.

[Daremonai]

It's pretty clear what's going to happen, if you think about it...

The Snarl is the Ultimate Threat - it has perma-killed deities.
Belkar has on several occasions declared himself a "sexy shoeless god of war".

He's going to acheive apotheosis and truly become a (demi)god of war, head out to tear the Snarl a new one, and die in the attempt.

Simple, logical, epic.

[MoonCat]

Hehe, this thread delivers.

Ok, here is my two copper pieces...

We have to ask ourselves is Belkar a "main character" or a "supporting character" - that determines how "epic" a death should be IF the Giant is playing by those rules...... which, frankly, I don't think he's playing by any rules but his own. So reaching into dramatic literary formula only goes as far as frustrating the arguement.

Sadly, I know the truth... I got to see the storyboard -- and if you really want to know:

Belkar will die at the exact moment.... the Giant deems it so.

He could just off him in the middle of a strip with him choking on a chicken bone. He could have the Red Queen land on him... splat! Or he could have Belkar fight the Snarl (although it would be a brief scene!)

Speculation is fun and makes for good discussion -- but no one (save the Giant) can prove anything. If we've learned nothing over the last 792 strips -- the Giant is quite good at keeping his cards close and surprising us.

**and in case it's not obvious, no I didn't really see any storyboard =D **



Yeah, but you're just rejecting any speculation, deeming it pointless so we shouldn't do it. People don't work that way Rajhiim.

[G-Man Graves]

And he won't be supporting Roy by fighting the Linear Guild right now. Got you. That definitely makes logical sense. I'm glad you pointed it out to me, otherwise I would have labored under the mistaken impression that the OotS was fighting the Linear Guild, and possibly losing, and that intervening on their behalf would have been a useful move on Belkar's part.

Well, last I checked, Roy is currently fighting Thog, a confirmed member of the Linear Guild, in the arena. Alone. With no help. From Belkar or otherwise. But since you have a much more indepth understanding of the comic than me, perhaps you could link the strip where it's established Belkar can help Roy without watching, I'm sure it would be of immense help.



However, if he attacks Yukyuk now, he's not supporting the OotS or Roy, or dealing with any kind of recurring villains who play a fairly major role in the story. So his intervention would be meaningless in terms of the comic's development. Thanks again for the enlightenment.

Well, no, he wouldn't be supporting Roy. In fact, considering that Yukyuk is his opposite, and as such hired to attack and kill Belkar, Belkar could fight and kill him with no motivation besides "Defend myself and my cat." Glad I helped enlighten you.


I will feel free to disregard it, and I do. Of course, you're also free to disregard mine. Have a nice day.

The difference being that while I don't agree with your interpretation, I remain mature enough to treat it as a legitamite possibilty, while you just discard mine out of hand.

[Rajhiim]

Yeah, but you're just rejecting any speculation, deeming it pointless so we shouldn't do it. People don't work that way Rajhiim.

I said it was fun and makes for good discussion -- however, given the nature of this comic - we cannot base our speculation on anything firm. Several o f the debate points seem to base their arguement on "firm rules" - to which I say, there are none!

Regardless, please speculate away!!!

I am sorry that it came across as a flat rejection :smalleek: - anyone of you could be right :smallbiggrin: just dont fight each other too hard cuz the Giant does what the Giant will.

:smallwink:

[MoonCat]

I said it was fun and makes for good discussion -- however, given the nature of this comic - we cannot base our speculation on anything firm. Several o f the debate points seem to base their arguement on "firm rules" - to which I say, there are none!

Regardless, please speculate away!!!

I am sorry that it came across as a flat rejection :smalleek: - anyone of you could be right :smallbiggrin: just dont fight each other too hard cuz the Giant does what the Giant will.

:smallwink:

Oh, sorry. I tend to get a bit tetchy towards the people who are against guessing. :smallredface:

[Gift Jeraff]

My thoughts on what appear to be the most commonly suggested methods of Belkar dying:

A kobold: Meh, I never really saw "Belkar kills kobolds" as that significant of a gag. It happened 3 times, and his hatred of kobolds is only mentioned when kobolds are around. I consider his killing of humans more significant.

Snarl: We're not sure if what we know about the Snarl is still (or ever was) true, so can't really comment on this.

V-controlled-by-fiends: Fitting, but I'm of the opinion that Belkar will be fighting the IFCC in the Lower Planes while this happens, and will actually save V (or kill V while saving the rest of the Order). I think Durkon will die when this happens.

Roy: Well, this mostly existed because people thought they would be pit together in the arena.

Xykon: Taking a hit for Roy, making a sacrifice that allows someone else to strike, etc. Works for me.

Nale: This is what I'm leaning toward at the moment. Nale might be thinking something like "You failed to kill your allies like MY charm spell told you to do. I can't let you live after an insult like that."

Something silly like a no-name NPC, a banana peel, or the Vaporizing Flu: This was already sorta teased at with Evisceratus, so...no.

[Holy_Knight]

At first I thought it might be likely that YukYuk would kill Belkar, but now I've decided that it's probably just the opposite. From what we've seen, YukYuk is basically a representation of what Belkar used to be--a two-dimensional killer who delights in causing suffering to whatever target is most convenient. I'm not saying that Belkar isn't that now, but he has seemingly been moving away from it, in no small part due to the influence of Shojo and his actual concern for another living creature in Mr. Scruffy. For Belkar to be killed by YukYuk (whose bloodthirsty riding dog makes the comparison all the greater) would function as a condemnation of his character growth. While his new attitude could cause him to die in ways that he wouldn't have before, it should not do so at the hand of, essentially, his past self. So, while Belkar probably will indeed die soon, I think he'll vanquish YukYuk before that happens.

On that note, one possibility is that he kills YukYuk, but is so concerned with getting Mr. Scruffy healed that it doesn't even occur to him to mutilate YukYuk's corpse. That could be a subtle, but believable, sign of his growth as a character.

[Shoelessgdowar]

That scenario could work just as well right here, though; the Order is on the ropes as it is, and we haven't seen Nale and Sabine yet (not to mention any hypothetical new evil opposite for Durkon). It's entirely feasible that Belkar could end up being in exactly the kind of run-away-or-die-saving-your-friends situation you've just described right here.

Equally, it's also possible that we're just going to see karma catching up with him in spite of his gaming the system. In Belkar's case, it doesn't really matter who kills him - he's always seen things as himself against the world. Claiming that Belkar's exempt from death simply because his hypothetical murderer isn't a big-shot villain is silly, really; if anything, it makes more sense for Belkar to die at the hands of a relative nobody than for him to be killed by Xykon. If Belkar gets zapped by Team Evil then the scene will be all about them; if he's killed by a nobody then it will all be about Belkar.

Besides, I don't think it's likely that Team Evil will be making an appearance soon enough to validate the Oracle's prediction. We have a confirmed location for Xykon not very far in the past: Sunken Valley, quite possibly hoping to get a fix on his phylactery. I seriously doubt that the plot could stretch to accommodate a big showdown with Xykon and Redcloak right on the heels of the Linear Guild - it would feel horribly rushed, if nothing else, and it would basically reduce Girard's and Kraagor's gates to whistle-stop tours.

Um... no... Let's for a minute look at Death in Comics. Whose Death is more memorable Mr. Immortal vs the Trap Door, Superman vs Doomsday, or Jason Todd vs Joker. All three deaths were that of a main character, all 3 characters came back from Death later, but who really remembers Mr. Immortal's Death vs the Trap Door. Jason Todd was loathed and people still remembered Joker killing him so much that it was for a while a standard of comics... Superman's death vs Doomsday was Epic and despite the undoing of it so quickly was still no less a milestone. When a character, main or major supporting character dies it has to be at the hands of someone important. Heck, even the Burgler who kills Uncle Ben and Joe Chill (the mugger who killed the Waynes) have slowly been elevated over the years to greater characters because they were retroactively made bigger and badder to the point that in Spiderman III they completely made the Mugger a red herring and made the future Sandman the real Uncle Ben Killer only to turn around and make him a sympathetic villain, and the Waynes and Uncle Ben aren't even major supporting characters but origin fodder meant to be the defining moment that made the hero a hero. If Belkar is killed by anything less then the likes of Xykon, a resurrected Miko, the Monster in the Shadows, Redcloak, or the Snarl, then it lessens the story and the importance of the characters.

And I deny this is a dragged out death sequence because either the Oracle is wrong (don't wast time arguing otherwise, because if he was right it is because of twisted logic) or in the same twisted logic that has been used to prove his half-a$$ prophecies correct Belkar already died and drew his last breath ever. In the same vain as denying that Roy's calculation is a valid prediction of time, I point out that Roy didn't witness Belkar's Death and the replacement with the new Belkar.

And no, fleeing from the Linear Guild or staying and fighting them is not character developing choice. Sacrificing himself against the Snarl to save Roy or Elan or V would be a change in Belkar's past actions, fighting equal or lesser level foes en masse is not a big deal to Belkar... he fought the entire Gobbie Army and the entire Thieves' Guild without batting an eye (stabbing a few yes, batting no). 6-12 (Hey, Z has Qarr, Yukyuk has Sir Scraggles, maybe Sabine, Nale, Durkon's counterpart, and even Thog now have some sort of animal/creature minion) similar level foes is not a flee worthy group to Belkar (The only reason he fled from Yokyok was because he couldn't fight Yokyok due to the Mark at the time... no mark stopping him means Belkar lives to fight... and because of it he LIVES because he fights). The only way for Belkar to question staying for a fight is if the opponent is EPIC and he knows he has no chance of doing anything to it (and really, Belkar isn't wise enough to realize that so even then it isn't a valid time he'd choose).

But it really doesn't matter what we argue, because Swordpriest has declared Belkar is already dying, and Swordpriest wants it, so it must happen. Sheesh, if you want the predictions to end, then the way to end them isn't to have him die, the way to end them is to admit the prophecy doesn't matter... The Oracle was a Kobold... if Belkar was going to die by a Kobold's hand the Oracle would have been rubbing it in his face everytime he was there, not making off-handed remarks with no bearing. His off-handed remarks were even wrong
(They weren't late, and it wasn't a pair of family reunions... Because Elan has had 2 reunions, Roy has had 4 reunions, Haley has had 2 reunions, Vaarsuvius has had a trio of family reunions and triggered a bunch of reunions as well, and Durkon and Belkar have had no family reunions yet... how is that a pair? And none of them were late) and his prophecies are inaccurate, but instead of accepting the idiot Kobold is a corrupt charlatan whose only purpose is to promote Tiamat's goals (and recently failed so miserably that now he's out a job. If the Oracle is so great he would have told the Mother Black Dragon that her child was killed by tricks created by of Nale, not by V... oh wait, then the Oracle would have had to admit to V that you'll never achieve that power... which of course leads to the Oracle having to admit to Belkar "None of the above... well, you'll stab me, but I'll just be resurrected so it won't matter"). If the Oracle was so perfect then Tiamat would not have been on Lines 2, 3, 5, 8, and 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) because Tiamat who gives the Oracle his prophecies would have known what would happen if they really were seeing the future and would not be complaining about what happened.

[CaptainIreland]

His off-handed remarks were even wrong
(They weren't late, and it wasn't a pair of family reunions... Because Elan has had 2 reunions, Roy has had 4 reunions, Haley has had 2 reunions, Vaarsuvius has had a trio of family reunions and triggered a bunch of reunions as well, and Durkon and Belkar have had no family reunions yet... how is that a pair? And none of them were late)

I have no idea what you're talking about in most of your post (well, I get the gist of it).

But this...he was talking to Roy and Elan (the two on panel) and they were running late to a meeting with Nale and Julia. The way the sentence was worded, the "pair of family reunions" meant they were going to each have a family reunion at the same time.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I have no idea what you're talking about in most of your post (well, I get the gist of it).

But this...he was talking to Roy and Elan (the two on panel) and they were running late to a meeting with Nale and Julia. The way the sentence was worded, the "pair of family reunions" meant they were going to each have a family reunion at the same time.

Trying to interpret what the Oracle really means is garbage... because his prophecies are garbage... and as I will point out... Neither was late for the reunion or one or both would have missed it... they didn't... the oracle was wrong AGAIN. Ginko Bilboa meant nothing, there was no gift horse to look in the mouth, V said only 3 words and to no one at all, Belkar killed none of the list (When you euthanasia is not just some Mongolian Children, it is a humane act to put someone out of their misery... and the Oracle was a miserable liar), Xykon was in the Gate Room not his Throne Room, Nale caused the Baby Black Dragon's Death, and Rich Burlew killed Eugene's Master... Elan's ending is not happy so far, Ghost Roy didn't forget what the Oracle told him, and Durkon will not be returning to his homelands alive nor posthumously at the current rate, so that is a whopping count of 0 correct prophecies, so why focus on the ones where he tries to convince Roy, Belkar, and the readers that Belkar will die at all.

It is more likely for Elan to die, possess Nale, get Nale's soul banished by Giggles and Banjo, and live out his live in Nale's body then for Belkar to be killed by Yukyuk the laughing Kobold.

And for the record. Yukyuk is CE just like old Belkar was... he has to be... Rangers, Rogues, and Barbarians can't be Lawful, and he is obviously Evil.

[Gift Jeraff]

Rangers, Rogues, and Barbarians can't be Lawful, and he is obviously Evil.
Rangers and rogues can be any alignment, and there's no evidence that Yukyuk is a barbarian.

I do agree that he probably is Chaotic Evil, though.

[veti]

[snip huge rant including comparison with characters written by hacks who aren't fit to tie the Giant's shoelaces.]

6-12 (Hey, Z has Qarr, Yukyuk has Sir Scraggles, maybe Sabine, Nale, Durkon's counterpart, and even Thog now have some sort of animal/creature minion)

Durkon's counterpart? Possibly. (Leeky had Kitty.) Thog doesn't have any class levels that entitle him to an animal companion/familiar. Nale could have one, in theory (he's part-sorceror), but he's never shown any interest before. Maybe Sabine is his familiar. Sabine herself? Nah, she's the kind of person who provides support, not the kind who asks for it.


The only way for Belkar to question staying for a fight is if the opponent is EPIC and he knows he has no chance of doing anything to it (and really, Belkar isn't wise enough to realize that so even then it isn't a valid time he'd choose).

Fight or flight aren't his only options. There's also 'defect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html)'.


That scenario could work just as well right here, though; the Order is on the ropes as it is, and we haven't seen Nale and Sabine yet (not to mention any hypothetical new evil opposite for Durkon).

Theory: new opposite for Durkon is... Malack.

Reasoning: in a sharp break with tradition, Nale has decided to do the intelligent thing and play to his enemies' weaknesses. Durkon's weakness is that he's far too passive/reactive. Face him with a strong enemy, and he will crush it in jig time; but give him the opportunity to sit on the sidelines and simply not notice what's going on, and he'll be there for hours.

[Gurgeh]

everything
Your english makes me want to claw out my own eyes. Please, for the love of god, use paragraphs and run a basic spell check the next time you want to rant.

Unfortunately, I think we've got a fundamental disagreement here; I don't think that a major character needs some kind of big bang if or when they die. If a character's death is well-written, then it will have an impact regardless of the superficial details surrounding it. All three of the examples you listed mean less than nothing to me; they're all flat characters who've always survived on brand identity despite generally poor writing. They're also serial characters: there isn't going to be an "end" to Superman, short of the entire comics industry dying an swift and permanent death.

There is, however, going to be an end to the Order of the Stick, and Belkar doesn't necessarily need to be around for it. It would be entirely in keeping with both his old and new points of view for him to expire with a "sucks to be you guys, at least I don't have to deal with the god-killing abomination". I think that far more damage would be done to the strip by hyper-accelerating the conclusion than would be done by having Belkar die before the story is finished.

Furthermore, I don't see why you persist in denying the canonically stated correct prophecies of the Oracle, let alone ignoring the ones that are blatantly obvious. Of the War and XPs set of prophecies, the only ones that have been answered have been more or less correct. Shall we briefly revisit them again?

Belkar: Quite explicitly resolved. Or do you honestly think getting resurrected after the fact means that Belkar didn't actually kill the oracle?
Elan: Unresolved. His story isn't over, so no comment either way.
Haley: Resolved as all hell. Nale was the gift horse. Even the characters figured that one out.
V: Quibbling about whether or not a word counts when repeated? Please.
Durkon: Unresolved, and quite possibly permanently so. There's no real need for it be be resolved within the strip anyway, is there?
Roy: Unresolved, although probably not for long. Given that Xykon and Redcloak have both talked about hitting Girard's gate (and have made no mention of Kraagor's), this seems on the money.
Blackwing: Why the hell did you even bring this up? It was a throwaway gag. Unresolved because the audience will probably never know the context.

Denial isn't just a river in the Empire of Tears.

[Rasputin]

I could be wrong, but my impression from all the previous discussions and words from the Giant himself is that when Belkar dies, he is gone for good - no possibility of ever coming back, not even by the Gods. Sounds to me like "death by Snarl."

There is no Snarl. The Snarl self-organized and created a world of his own. Given the Giants frequent 4th wall breakage and general self-reference, we might have just looked in at the Earth with that peek Blackwing gave us in Gobbotopia.

We are all Snarlites...

[veti]

Of the War and XPs set of prophecies, the only ones that have been answered have been more or less correct. Shall we briefly revisit them again?

Belkar: Quite explicitly resolved. Or do you honestly think getting resurrected after the fact means that Belkar didn't actually kill the oracle?
Elan: Unresolved. His story isn't over, so no comment either way.
Haley: Resolved as all hell. Nale was the gift horse. Even the characters figured that one out.
V: Quibbling about whether or not a word counts when repeated? Please.
Durkon: Unresolved, and quite possibly permanently so. There's no real need for it be be resolved within the strip anyway, is there?
Roy: Unresolved, although probably not for long. Given that Xykon and Redcloak have both talked about hitting Girard's gate (and have made no mention of Kraagor's), this seems on the money.
Blackwing: Why the hell did you even bring this up? It was a throwaway gag. Unresolved because the audience will probably never know the context.

Oh goody, an Oracle derailment...

The Oracle's reputation rests on three prophecies:
1. He told Roy where to find Xykon
2. He told Haley 'don't look the gift horse in the mouth'
3. He told V 'by saying the right four words...'

Of these... well, since Xykon is one of (if not the) most powerful characters in the world, it's likely that anyone with a half-way decent intelligence network would be keeping an eye on him anyway. You don't need supernatural insight to explain that. And Haley's case could be a lucky educated guess, based on the psychological theory that her aphasia was a by-product of her intensely suspicious nature, hence she could resolve it by overcoming that nature.

But the most impressive by far is V's. Knowing that there would be "four words" - particularly since V is usually so much more verbose - argues that the Oracle has real future vision, not just educated guesswork. I don't see any way to explain that away.

The other prophecies are not so great. Belkar's was so vague, I could have answered it myself - the chance of the little psycho making it through the comic without "causing the death" of any of those on his list was surely so slim as to be negligible. Elan's and Durkon's are unresolved, and likely to remain so for a long while. Roy's - we should see some evidence for soon, although if the Oracle has done his homework it could again be explained by educated guesswork. And Blackwing's - was just plain meaningless. We can't be sure what the question was, but (speaking for myself) that answer doesn't meet my standards for Genuine Prophetic Insight to just about any question.

The prophecy of Belkar's death is interesting because it's the only one with an explicit time limit. That's why there's so much speculation around it. And while I wouldn't put it past the Oracle to embellish/mislead/just plain lie, it would be out of character (I think) for him to make a definitely-falsifiable statement like that unless he was genuinely sure it was true.

[harmsc12]

And while I wouldn't put it past the Oracle to embellish/mislead/just plain lie, it would be out of character (I think) for him to make a definitely-falsifiable statement like that unless he was genuinely sure it was true.

He has a strong motive to lie to the OOTS. He doesn't want the sexy shoeless god of war knocking on his door anymore. Every time the group shows up, it's bad for him. If they think he's unreliable, they won't come asking him for advice.

[Chobarth]

My prediction ... "Belkar will die" ... because Belkar sacrifices himself for the greater good - an essential character growth, in line with his mark of justice, that makes a good story. "his transformation" ... from evil (yes, even Giant has emphatically said that Belkar, at least prior to mark of justice, was kilo-nazi evil) to hero is a story worth reading.


I don't know who I care for less. The people who hate Belkar, and can't seem to stop themselves from mentioning it all the time (we get it - we like him anyway - deal with it) or the new breed who seem to think he is transforming into a good person. He's FAKING IT!! "You mean if I trick the mindless drones into believing I subscribe to their arbitrary moral framework..." #606 Its the difference between being naturally of a good nature, and running everything through an internal algorithm before acting.

See: #622 self-dialogue #687 great strip showing the algorithm but no real growth (and the jury is out on #786 because we don't know his motivation yet) Yes, he likes the cat. CE doesn't mean rampant hatred, its means rampant selfishness and disregard of the supposed sanctity of life.

Also, re: the Kilo-Nazi thing #489 - Belkar has been less than 1 kilonazi for the most part ever since meeting Roy. He had just crested 3 kilonazi's before that. So he was three times 'worse' than anything we've ever seen. Doesn't mean that Roy transformed him either - just contains / directs him.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Belkar: Quite explicitly resolved. Or do you honestly think getting resurrected after the fact means that Belkar didn't actually kill the oracle?
I deny that Belkar killed him. The resurrection not withstanding, The Oracle lied over and over to try to make the prophecy correct until he pushed Belkar over the edge... it is called being 'Dead Right'. The Oracle knew he was wrong, and instead of admitting he was wrong and letting everyone move on with their lives knowing he was a charlatan, he commited suicide to make his prophecy a small percentage correct. Without specifics and exceptions to make it absolutely accurate Yes or No can only be used for a list if the list is absolutely all Yeses or all Noes... the Oracle did not give a list to answer the list so even in Death he was still not correct, but he chose to try to be 'Dead Right' instead of admitting failure.



Elan: Unresolved. His story isn't over, so no comment either way.
Unless we use the Schroedinger's Cat Theory to say that this is simultaneously wrong and right until we know the outcome, it is not right. In fact we can more likely argue that for this to be correct all the members of the Order have to survive and Banjo has to be elevated to the highest deity of Order of the Stick-verse for this to be correct (Elan was not happy if a single friend died, so a Happy Ending... even just for him... requires the Order to live... Banjo's elevation would make Durkon unhappy, and V and Roy surviving would make Belkar less then happy, so this statement can be true with them being alive and the ending being a Happy one... mainly if not solely for Elan).



Haley: Resolved as all hell. Nale was the gift horse. Even the characters figured that one out.
Sorry, no... don't misconstrue a Trojan Horse for a Gift Horse. A gift horse is a good opportunity (not one that seems to be one or seems too good to be true... there is a major difference), a Trojan Horse is something that looks like a Gift but turns out to be a Trap. If the Oracle had said when the Trojan Horse comes knocking don't look it in the mouth it would be accurate, but he said Gift Horse... the Gift Horse never came until recently (The chance to grow her hair back) and she had long since been given her speech back.



V: Quibbling about whether or not a word counts when repeated? Please.
Not Quibbling, stuttering is still one word, it is just the one word is 1 letter long so a stutter seems like a repetition. And he still did not say it to anyone one. Talking to yourself out loud is still called thinking out loud so it is talking to no one... If he said "When you think the right thought and act on it then you will get the power." that would have been right (retarded, evasive BS, but that is all the Oracle really gives anyway... but more accurate then 4 words spoken to the right person at the right time for all the wrong reasons...) and actually saving one's family and friends and attempting to stop Xykon are not all the wrong reasons... so that is # wrong, target/person wrong, cause wrong... 3 strikes he's out... the prophecy was false.



Durkon: Unresolved, and quite possibly permanently so. There's no real need for it be be resolved within the strip anyway, is there?
Schroedinger's Cat again? No... until it is resolved it is wrong. He doesn't get credit for a prophecy that for an Adventurer is a major likelihood.



Roy: Unresolved, although probably not for long. Given that Xykon and Redcloak have both talked about hitting Girard's gate (and have made no mention of Kraagor's), this seems on the money.



Blackwing: Why the hell did you even bring this up? It was a throwaway gag. Unresolved because the audience will probably never know the context.
I bring it up because it was a Prophecy... do we ignore the 1 time Belkar brutally killed someone whose only marks of innocence are his word he was ignorant of the change in regime when encountering the people who outright have made it obvious they're enemies of said regime? No? Then we definitely don't ignore every failed prophecy.

I do like how you blatantly ignored the fact that Tiamat who gives the prophecies to the Oracle is complaining on Lines 2, 3, 5, 8, and 11 about the deaths of roughly 1/4 the Black Dragon Population because the Oracle told the Black Dragon where to find the Elf that the Oracle knew was going to say "...the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons" (Oh wait it was 3 words to no being at the right time for some of the right reasons) and thereby kill those 1/4 of all Black Dragons (The obvious reason being because Tiamat and the Oracle didn't know and only really know so much about possible probabilities... and since the spell makes you forget everything else and so few can get to the Oracle, his failures tend to disappear anyway... Like Roy and Eugene did... though Roy was stubborn and came back) and the fact the Oracle thought Roy would not remember anything besides the supposed official prophecy.

If the Oracle is correct then so are the people who think Tarquin is Nale in disguise and that Malack is Sabine... those guesses make as much sense as thinking the Oracle's prophecies are anything but standard charlatan fortune teller BS.

The only reason for such generalization in an RPG campaign is because the DM is running the Oracle, and the only way for a DM to have their Oracle's prophecies come true is to be general enough to fit whatever the players end up doing...otherwise they have to force the players to play the story out the way they want and then they might as well not be playing the game.

A real Oracle/Prophet/Seer historically/mythically was absolutely accurate because they were absolutely correct... the greatest was Cassandra who was cursed to be always right but always disbelieved and she didn't quibble with generalizations... when Cassandra said "Poseidon has been angered and will sink Atlantis in 3 days" Poseidon was angered and 3 days later sunk Atlantis... too bad the people of Atlantis didn't believe her... but she did say it clearly and without generalizations like "Sins of the Fathers have brought Troubled Waters, half a weeks time and the shorelines will change forever more, invest in scuba futures and you may do well if you are not in Atlantis when the Father of Triton comes a calling" or "You will die".

And just so you know, I do spell check frequently... usually the only things that are left unchanged are things like: Nale, Elan, Belkar, Thog, RPG, DM, Tiamat, Malack, and other proper names or terms like RPG and DM which are not common vernacular to the general populace.

As for my run on paragraphs... tough, I rant... that's life. You complain about something then when someone gives you a way to handle the issue you complain about the fix. ie. You complain about the speculation of the death is driving you nuts... if you accept that the speculation is based on a lie and that either the death will not happen or was a metaphoric one that has already happened it makes the speculation seem trivial and far less annoying then if you dwell on it because you too expect something that will not be happening.

QUOTE=Chobarth;11077195]I don't know who I care for less. The people who hate Belkar, and can't seem to stop themselves from mentioning it all the time (we get it - we like him anyway - deal with it) or the new breed who seem to think he is transforming into a good person. He's FAKING IT!! "You mean if I trick the mindless drones into believing I subscribe to their arbitrary moral framework..." #606 Its the difference between being naturally of a good nature, and running everything through an internal algorithm before acting.

See: #622 self-dialogue #687 great strip showing the algorithm but no real growth (and the jury is out on #786 because we don't know his motivation yet) Yes, he likes the cat. CE doesn't mean rampant hatred, its means rampant selfishness and disregard of the supposed sanctity of life.

Also, re: the Kilo-Nazi thing #489 - Belkar has been less than 1 kilonazi for the most part ever since meeting Roy. He had just crested 3 kilonazi's before that. So he was three times 'worse' than anything we've ever seen. Doesn't mean that Roy transformed him either - just contains / directs him.[/QUOTE]

My argument of his becoming good isn't that he means to, but more that he is because you can only act a certain way and fake something for so long before you start to do it out of habit and then once it is a habit you start to actually begin to believe and really feel that way (Which is why Belkar suddenly caught himself actually being that way and feeling that way when he let loose the Allosaurus... BTW, so glad the argument of its species was cleared up, THAT was an annoying and pointless argument... and had to try to reverse some of it by making a point with Roy that he didn't do it so he could have some deniability. Likewise he is being conditioned to like doing good deeds... "Wait, so if I kill the guys that everyone hates and wants dead, they'll give me gifts for doing it?"... yes, it is selfish, but what starts off that way can lead to doing things less selfishly and even selfishly can still be good or at least neutral). I'm not saying that Belkar will be CG again (he was for a brief moment when he was under the spell by V), but I could believe by the time they face and defeat the Snarl that Belkar might just qualify to be considered CN(A single slot alignment shift is really not that major a deal... I've seen a player do far more drastic alignment shifts in a single scene... arguably that was by committing a tremendously heinous act of evil and chaos, but still, going form Principled to Diabolical in one act (it was in Heroes Unlimited, different alignment system... but essentially they drop TN and have a counterpart to all the other alignments... so going from LG to CE essentially) was pretty impressive (Since I'm sure some people are curious. To stop a reoccurring Henchman who had moved up to minor villain status, a Superman/Captain "Shazam" Marvel type hero trashed all of downtown and created an impact of H-Bomb Proportions in a Suburb Shopping Center in attempts to KILL the henchman turned minor villain in a 10 minute in character period. BTW... after all that... the henchman turned minor villain was only slightly bruised and trapped in an armored suit inside a mangled full size van)

[k_bukie]

I think Belkar, Vaarsuvius and Durkon will all die in this arc to mirror the previous losses for the Linear Guild, and also to fulfill Belkar's and Durkon's prophecies, and to put V's soul into the hands of the IFCC for 40 minutes as a high level arcane caster for whatever spell that Team Evil is using to control the snarl.

[SPoD]

I deny that Belkar killed him.

The best part of this post is that this is the first sentence, which is a handy clue to the rest of us that we don't need to read any further.

[Gurgeh]

^^ I wish I'd taken that advice... -_-

And naturally, the actual point of my post - there's not really any need for Belkar's death to happen under astoundingly special circumstances - has been entirely ignored in favour of dealing with the tangent that, on reflection, I really shouldn't have entertained.

Shoelessgdowar, I see no point in trying to persuade you when you seem unable to grasp concepts like a logical "or" statement or the concept of testing by counterexample. We've run this course before - in actual topics about the oracle. You showed no sign - none whatsoever - of comprehending the undergraduate logic that was presented to you and instead chose, both then and now, to go on tangential rants about "why didn't tiamat foresee the familicide" and "belkar didn't really kill the oracle because... the oracle made belkar kill him?". If you're incapable of engaging with the arguments being presented by people who consider the oracle's predictions largely accurate, then there's obviously not much left to say.

EDIT: for clarity's sake, I'm well aware that the trojan horse has nothing to do with "gift horses". Nale was the gift horse in this case because Haley thought he was Elan, and decided to put a lifetime's worth of mistrust and secrecy behind her to tell him that she loved him. And it worked, no?

EDIT EDIT: okay, I'm a glutton for punishment.
Obviously, confirming instances mean nothing final - it is wholly possible that the oracle is just a very shrewd judge of character. But importantly, we have yet to see any disconfirming instances; the only prophecies that haven't been literally true have yet to be proven false, either.

Given the fact that OotS is set in a world where people actually do have magic powers that let them teleport, fly, shoot fire from their hands, brainwash their enemies, and even raise the dead, the possibility that magic may also allow some characters to see the future - an ability which is explicitly part of the core D&D 3.5 rules via spells like Augury and Divination - it seems fair enough to accept the oracle as bona fide in the absence of any predictions that were contradicted by events.

---

So, uh, everyone else: I'm going to have to agree with Chobarth: Belkar hasn't had a change of heart at all, he's trying to game the system. It's worked out fairly well for him so far, but it doesn't mean that he's about to make a heroic sacrifice. If and when he dies, he won't be "redeemed" in the process, primarily because he's got no interest in it.

Belkar's decided to be a team player, but he's not about to become a martyr.

[GSFB]

Getting back to the main point...


For Belkar to be killed by YukYuk (whose bloodthirsty riding dog makes the comparison all the greater) would function as a condemnation of his character growth.

This is probably the most intelligent thing I have read here.

[veti]

[snip huge wall of semi-coherent text]
Unless we use the Schroedinger's Cat Theory to say that this is simultaneously wrong and right until we know the outcome, it is not right.

This is ridiculous. "You said the sun would go down, but there it is, still in the sky! That proves you're full of .... !"

It's got nothing to do with that poor cat: it's just "the future tense". It makes perfect sense to treat those prophecies as "unresolved", not "false".


Not Quibbling, stuttering is still one word, it is just the one word is 1 letter long so a stutter seems like a repetition. And he still did not say it to anyone one. Talking to yourself out loud is still called thinking out loud so it is talking to no one...

That wasn't a stutter. Stuttering is a speech impediment, and V doesn't suffer from it. That was a hesitation, and, yes, a repetition.

And "talking to yourself" is called "talking to yourself". It's a common expression, it doesn't need translating into any other semantic term to make it seem as if the conditions are not being fulfilled.


I bring it up because it was a Prophecy...

On this I actually agree with you. At the very least, Blackwing is entitled to a refund for that extremely crappy prophecy.


I do like how you blatantly ignored the fact that Tiamat who gives the prophecies to the Oracle

Tiamat gives the Oracle his powers. There's no indication that she actually hands every prophecy to him personally. But even if she is aware of their content, the familicide event was never the subject of any prophecy - it's simply not a question that was ever asked - and so there's no reason why it would have been foreseen.

If the Oracle is for real, then it could have been foreseen. But merely because it wasn't, doesn't prove he's a fraud. Merely that nobody asked.


A real Oracle/Prophet/Seer historically/mythically was absolutely accurate because they were absolutely correct...

Forget "historically". Historically, assuming the basic laws of reality haven't changed, there was no such thing as an "absolutely accurate" prophet.

The Oracle of Delphi was a real thing, and it had quite a reputation in its day, but that reputation was built on precisely the kind of charlatanry you decry - prophecies couched at the level of newspaper horoscopes, so vague that they couldn't help but be fulfilled. The Delphic Oracle would never have predicted, in so many words, that a specific, named person would die within a specific, named period.

So that leaves "mythically". You're on stronger ground here, because mythology is precisely where you find accurate prophecies. But myths are stories, which is where the comparison to a D&D campaign breaks down: a D&D campaign is not a story. (It may have stories embedded within it, but that's a different thing.) The storyteller can ensure that the prophet is always accurate, simply by rewriting as much of the story as necessary to make it so.

In an actual campaign, the Oracle would be viewed differently because it would be obvious to the players that they could, if they chose, falsify the prophecies. For instance, Vaarsuvius could have taken care not to say any four-word sentences when the IFCC made her their offer.

But the OOTS falls firmly into the "story" category. Therefore, there's no reason why the Oracle shouldn't be completely accurate. On the other hand, there's no guarantee that he will be, either. The Giant might be intending to make a point about free will

[Nimrod's Son]

On this I actually agree with you. At the very least, Blackwing is entitled to a refund for that extremely crappy prophecy.
Aside from the fact that this is obviously just a throwaway last-panel joke, supposing Blackwing had been slipping V ginkgo biloba ever since, and if it weren't for that then V would never have remembered him at O-Chul's prompt? That would've had to have happened off-panel, after all. :smallwink:

If the Oracle had answered Blackwing's question with "V will display a newfound respect for you after you attempt to fly Xykon's phylactery into one of the rifts", or something like that, it might have opened up a few avenues of speculation that Rich didn't really want.

Also it wouldn't have been funny.

[Gurgeh]

Wait, I'm a little confused; did Blackwing's question get translated in War and XPs, or are people just assuming that it was about V? The online comic never references it at all.

[Nimrod's Son]

Ginkgo biloba is (purportedly) a memory-enhancer, so the question is inferred from the answer, ie. How can I get V to remember I exist?

(Well, either that, or it's a complete non-sequitur, and we really can't speculate on whether it was a valid prophecy or not.)

[Innis Cabal]

Belkar: Quite explicitly resolved. Or do you honestly think getting resurrected after the fact means that Belkar didn't actually kill the oracle?

True.


Elan: Unresolved. His story isn't over, so no comment either way.

True.


Haley: Resolved as all hell. Nale was the gift horse. Even the characters figured that one out.

True.


V: Quibbling about whether or not a word counts when repeated? Please.

The Giant himself confirmed this I believe, true.


Durkon: Unresolved, and quite possibly permanently so. There's no real need for it be be resolved within the strip anyway, is there?

True.


Roy: Unresolved, although probably not for long. Given that Xykon and Redcloak have both talked about hitting Girard's gate (and have made no mention of Kraagor's), this seems on the money.

Not true. Roy's question was answered in a whole arc.

[FujinAkari]

Not true. Roy's question was answered in a whole arc.

Bwuh-huh? Roy's question was "Between Kraegor's and Girard's Gate, which will Xykon go to first?" Since Xykon hasn't gone to either yet, then this prophesy cannot be considered fulfilled yet...

Though, all available evidence shows the prophesy as immanently becoming true.

[Innis Cabal]

Bwuh-huh? Roy's question was "Between Kraegor's and Girard's Gate, which will Xykon go to first?" Since Xykon hasn't gone to either yet, then this prophesy cannot be considered fulfilled yet...

Though, all available evidence shows the prophesy as immanently becoming true.

You missed the point of the whole thing. It was fulfilled because it doesn't matter which one he was going to go to out of those two first. It was that Roy forgot the Azure City one.

[FujinAkari]

You missed the point of the whole thing. It was fulfilled because it doesn't matter which one he was going to go to out of those two first. It was that Roy forgot the Azure City one.

No I didn't... but that doesn't change the actual prophesy from being what it is. If we are examining oracle predictions we have to look at what was asked and what was answered, not what should have been asked and what would have been answered.

[Caractacus]

Sorry, no... don't misconstrue a Trojan Horse for a Gift Horse. A gift horse is a good opportunity (not one that seems to be one or seems too good to be true... there is a major difference), a Trojan Horse is something that looks like a Gift but turns out to be a Trap. If the Oracle had said when the Trojan Horse comes knocking don't look it in the mouth it would be accurate, but he said Gift Horse... the Gift Horse never came until recently (The chance to grow her hair back) and she had long since been given her speech back.

Sorry Shoeless, I don't agree at all with this. The point of prophecy is to respond to the person with truth couched in ambiguity (the deviations from this are more apparent than real - Cassandra was a deliberate play on the usual role of oracles as ambiguous as she was cursed to be disbelieved - it's a wonderful piece of story-telling , reusing old material in a new way).

It was a gift horse from Haley's point of view and absolutely NOT a Trojan horse (i.e. from the point of view of one who knows).

Additionally, had she been told to 'not look the Trojan horse in the mouth', she would have been seeking this meaning in everything since, quite frankly, it is easier to identify something that seems too good to be true and then realise that 'this is it, I'll accept it' than it is to critically examine everything and everyone for signs that perhaps they aren't what they seem to be...


For the record, the Oracle in our story gives correct prophecies. They are ambiguous, as is the norm for prophecies.

Cassandra was a nice twist on oracles as she was not unclear, but instead not believed.

There are no examples that I can think of in literature and mythology that involve an accurate, clear and correctly interpreted oracle giving prophecies that are believed and acted upon in such a way that the recipient succeeds in achieving his or her ends. There is ALWAYS a catch. There has to be. This is part of the purpose of prophecy in literature and mythology. Man is a mythopoeic animal and uses stories to make sense of the world. Knowing the future is one of the oldest dreams of mankind, and with prophecy and oracles we can try to explain why things were as they were, and how people's fates are guided (or otherwise) by the stars, gods, or their own hubris.

It has been explained in a related thread that having the power of prophecy does NOT correspond to complete knowledge of the future. I offer you an analogy:

A large amount of human knowledge and experience is available on the Internet easily and for free (okay, you know what I mean). However, unless we look for an answer to something, we do not know that information. Even if it is only a few key strokes and a couple of seconds away.

The Kobold does not know everything. He can receive oracular insight into specific matters that he is asked about, but that is it. Clearly, he has asked about his own death as we see he has made plans for that. Being bright, he then looked for his next death, etc.

However, it doesn't follow that he knows everything else. "Will people come when I am in the bath next Wednesday?" is probably not sufficient to warrant invoking the power of Tiamat. Besides, who knows what the restrictions there are on the power? Ten times a day? Six times a week? Does Tiamat have a 'charge' for her services? How tiring is it for the Oracle?

Finally, Tiamat herself does not know all the things that the Oracle can find out. This is apparent from several lines of reasoning:

1) she would be absolutely the most powerful being alive - after all if you know everything and you are a goddess, how can you possibly go wrong?

2) it would be against the run of how oracles normally are in literature and mythology (having access to information and knowing it are not the same, as noted above)

3) it would really screw up the story for Rich to introduce an infallible, omniscient goddess - why aren't the deities queuing up to ask Tiamat if and when the Snarl will escape and how to prevent it?

That said, this is where the need for ambiguity is seen as truly necessary in oracular prophecy in literature and myth as well as in the current story - since if the deities asked if and when the Snarl would escape and they were told that yes, it would, and that it will be on such-and-such a date at such-and-such a place, then that would have to happen regardless of the actions of those that would seek to prevent it.

Some oracular myths and legends play with this feature by making the very actions that were taken to prevent the event trigger said event. The oracular prophecy is part of the story and not outside it - if the question had not been asked and the actions not taken as a result, the event would not have occurred (at least not as prophesied).




Ginkgo biloba is (purportedly) a memory-enhancer, so the question is inferred from the answer, ie. How can I get V to remember I exist?

(Well, either that, or it's a complete non-sequitur, and we really can't speculate on whether it was a valid prophecy or not.)

I always thought that this was obvious.

If people didn't know about Ginkgo Biloba, then what is the Internet for?

Thanks for bringing it out into the open though - hopefully that strip now makes more sense to a lot of people.

[FujinAkari]

Additionally, had she been told to 'not look the Trojan horse in the mouth', she would have been seeking this meaning in everything since, quite frankly, it is easier to identify something that seems too good to be true and then realise that 'this is it, I'll accept it' than it is to critically examine everything and everyone for signs that perhaps they aren't what they seem to be...

Shoeless is correct in saying 'Trojan Horse' is a better term than 'Gift Horse,' but is also completely ignoring the fact that Troy and the Battle of Troy never happened in the OOTSverse, meaning the oracle -couldn't- tell Haley not to look a Trojan Horse in the mouth... both for the reasons you stated and because the term would have absolutely no meaning to Haley (or anyone else)

[G-Man Graves]

Shoeless is correct in saying 'Trojan Horse' is a better term than 'Gift Horse,' but is also completely ignoring the fact that Troy and the Battle of Troy never happened in the OOTSverse, meaning the oracle -couldn't- tell Haley not to look a Trojan Horse in the mouth... both for the reasons you stated and because the term would have absolutely no meaning to Haley (or anyone else)

Well, no, it really isn't a better term. To not look a gift horse in the mouth means not to over analyze when you get what you want. Haley followed this by not looking too deeply into the shift in personality in the man she loved.

Looking a TROJAN horse in the mouth is the best thing you can possibly do, because it reveals that the giant suspicious is full of angry greek men with stabbers.

[FujinAkari]

Well, no, it really isn't a better term. To not look a gift horse in the mouth means not to over analyze when you get what you want. Haley followed this by not looking too deeply into the shift in personality in the man she loved.

Looking a TROJAN horse in the mouth is the best thing you can possibly do, because it reveals that the giant suspicious is full of angry greek men with stabbers.

Yes, except a gift horse means something you are being given for free... don't overanalyse something you are being given. A trojan horse is something you are given which is secretly a trap, so a trojan horse is a better term for -what actually happened.-

However, as said, the Oracle can't USE that term, since it doesn't exist in the OOTSverse

[IronWilliam]

I think that there are numerous ways to circumvent the prophecy ot the oracle, but I personally believe Belkar will die as a culmination of his character growth.

[Chobarth]

I think that there are numerous ways to circumvent the prophecy ot the oracle, but I personally believe Belkar will die as a culmination of his character growth.

He isn't HAVING any character growth!!

Think of whatever polished, yet two-faced, politician you are most familier with... when he/she learned their dread skills of prevarication it wasn't character growth. It was an increase in the ability to put themselves farther ahead on the road to self-satisfaction. Their Character stayed the same!

Classic wolf in sheep's clothing: its an unrepentant murderer wearing a shawl of respectability. He is up to no-good dressed up in faux-good.

[MoonCat]

He isn't HAVING any character growth!!

Think of whatever polished, yet two-faced, politician you are most familier with... when he/she learned their dread skills of prevarication it wasn't character growth. It was an increase in the ability to put themselves farther ahead on the road to self-satisfaction. Their Character stayed the same!

Classic wolf in sheep's clothing: its an unrepentant murderer wearing a shawl of respectability. He is up to no-good dressed up in faux-good.

Belkar thinks he's faking character growth, and while he is, simultaneously he IS growing, look at the way he treats Mr. Scruffy. He wouldn't have acted like that years ago.

[FujinAkari]

Belkar thinks he's faking character growth, and while he is, simultaneously he IS growing, look at the way he treats Mr. Scruffy. He wouldn't have acted like that years ago.

Yes he would have... he loved Mr. Scruffy as soon as they met :P

[MoonCat]

Yes he would have... he loved Mr. Scruffy as soon as they met :P

:smalltongue: But the whole 'looking in the eyes and says they're together come hell or high water'? I don't think old Belkar would have done that, and now he's done it twice. Even the Giant has commented upon it.

[GSFB]

Belkar may have started off just trying to fool everyone. He may still be just fooling everyone. But there is no guarantee he will or won't continue to just be fooling everyone. He may, in fact, be changing over time. And it may well be that is act is having an effect on him. If you play a part long enough, you may start to become the character you are playing.

[Chobarth]

Belkar may have started off just trying to fool everyone. He may still be just fooling everyone. But there is no guarantee he will or won't continue to just be fooling everyone. He may, in fact, be changing over time. And it may well be that is act is having an effect on him. If you play a part long enough, you may start to become the character you are playing.

The classic study about that happening is subjects being divided into 'prisoners' and 'guards'. I won't deny it could happen, and that I might be wrong about Death's Lil'Helper. But let me counter it with so many of our typical modern politicians (of any orientation - functionally doesn't matter). They play their role for long periods of time in the public eye - but it doesn't seem to make any of them motivated to actually take steps to pursue logical policy. (Again, NOT interested in politics - but an illustration of an entire group of people who pretend to be something else for the sake of themselves and their desires.) I bet some of them love their pets too...


:smalltongue: But the whole 'looking in the eyes and says they're together come hell or high water'? I don't think old Belkar would have done that, and now he's done it twice. Even the Giant has commented upon it.

Hadn't come across that, so perhaps Rich is intending something that I can't see in the strips yet. But committing loyalty to a cat doesn't come across as very meaningful. Evil isn't a synonym for hatred. Was Hitler evil? He kept dogs and according to the historians, kept one of them 'Blondi' at his side throughout the war, and was distraught when he lost an animal.

I don't deny that Belkar loves that cat - I deny that CE characters aren't capable of love. His 'love' of murder doesn't seem abated. He just force fed a person the intestines from a dead man, so torture still ranks high as well.

[MoonCat]

Hadn't come across that, so perhaps Rich is intending something that I can't see in the strips yet. But committing loyalty to a cat doesn't come across as very meaningful. Evil isn't a synonym for hatred. Was Hitler evil? He kept dogs and according to the historians, kept one of them 'Blondi' at his side throughout the war, and was distraught when he lost an animal.

I don't deny that Belkar loves that cat - I deny that CE characters aren't capable of love. His 'love' of murder doesn't seem abated. He just force fed a person the intestines from a dead man, so torture still ranks high as well.

Yes, but it still is some development, his ability to look another being in the face and trust it didn't used to be there. Doesn't mean he's all good, no way.
Elan and Haley put it best:

:elan: I can't tell if the cat is a good influence on Belkar, or Belkar is a bad influence on the cat.

:haley: Both, I think, but it still probably averages somewhere south of Neutral.

[sims796]

Except there IS no "extended death scene". It's the community who's been saying "Oh, he's fighting the bugs, he's gonna die! Oh, he's in a bar fight/got arrested, he's gonna die! Oh, he's in the arena, he's gonna die! Oh, the LG is back, he's gonna die! Oh, he's carrying a knife, he's gonna slip and die! Oh, he stubbed his toe, he's gonna die!"

There is very little indication that Belkar will die before Roy's predicted time, and frankly, to have him killed by anything other than Team Evil would be lame as hell. Considering Xykon is most likely going to be on his way soon, this is not an unlikely possibility.

Thank you. I say we wait until it happens, if at all. We cannot, in all serious-ness, predict when Belkar will die. We keep statinig as a fact that "Belkar will die now! No, now!" and of course, "it's a proven fact that he won't die now, here's my situational evidence that proves my opinion!".

When he dies, he dies. He could die right now, because he stubbed his toe, or he could die later, in a fight with Xykon. Or anything in between.

[UrsielHauke]

Firstly, I think something very important to note is that the oracle clearly stated that Belkar will breathe his last breath *ever* before the end of the year. This is clearly hinting to the idea that Belkar will not be resurrected. My prediction is that he will become some sort of undead, probably a wight (Maybe under the command of Tsukiko? Who knows?) or something similar, and be able to continue his rampage as a sexy shoeless *undead* god of war.

Secondly, it is important to keep in mind that Belkar is indeed a main character, has been around since comic #0001, and is not going to die to a couple of B-listers like some nameless gladiator or even the Linear guild. If Belkar does end up dying *for real*, it will probably be at the hand of Xykon or the Snarl.

[FujinAkari]

Firstly, I think something very important to note is that the oracle clearly stated that Belkar will breathe his last breath *ever* before the end of the year. This is clearly hinting to the idea that Belkar will not be resurrected. My prediction is that he will become some sort of undead, probably a wight (Maybe under the command of Tsukiko? Who knows?) or something similar, and be able to continue his rampage as a sexy shoeless *undead* god of war.

This has been suggested about 1,752 times. The trouble is, it does -not- account for the 'not long for this world' bit of the prophesy.


Secondly, it is important to keep in mind that Belkar is indeed a main character, has been around since comic #0001, and is not going to die to a couple of B-listers like some nameless gladiator or even the Linear guild. If Belkar does end up dying *for real*, it will probably be at the hand of Xykon or the Snarl.

Yes, because Rich never ever does anything unexpected :P

[ThePhantasm]

Yes, because Rich never ever does anything unexpected :P

I don't think Belkar will be killed by Xykon or the Snarl. I also don't think he'll be offed by YukYuk, to be honest. Rich does unexpected things, true, but such a death would be anticlimactic. Belkar's prophecy has been building up for awhile.

My money is still on

V, under the control of the IFCC, kills Belkar. Climactic, unexpected (aside from the fact that I just predicted it), brings extra tension into the Order, probably will happen soon since the IFCC's minions (LG) are present, etc.

[FujinAkari]

I don't think Belkar will be killed by Xykon or the Snarl. I also don't think he'll be offed by YukYuk, to be honest. Rich does unexpected things, true, but such a death would be anticlimactic. Belkar's prophecy has been building up for awhile.

Oh, I don't have a bet on Belkar's death, I just think it is a really really bad idea to -ever- say "Oh, this won't happen due to storyline reasons." Rich has suspended those in the past, the only think he holds sacred is plot and character consistency, it seems :)

[GSFB]

I could see some possible merits of the theory that:

V kills B during IFCC control.

But still, this would most likely occur as part of the climax of the overall story, not "any time soon."

[ThePhantasm]

I could see some possible merits of the theory that:

V kills B during IFCC control.

But still, this would most likely occur as part of the climax of the overall story, not "any time soon."

I think it will occur at the climax for this book, probably at Girard's gate.

[Ancalagon]

I think it will occur at the climax for this book, probably at Girard's gate.

Yes, but as we do not know where Girard's Gate is, the climax could be closer than we think. Who tells us the Palace of the Empire was not built on top of the gate?
Tarquin's ruse with the Empire(s) comes pretty close to a big illusion. If he's working with Girard (if!), then the gate would be much closer than we could think.

I'm not saying the theory above was true, it's just an example there are possibilties we are already right in the midlle of the beginning "final conflict" for the gate - and Belkar's death could be closer than we think.
Also, the books got thicker and thicker, who does not tell us this one is going to be a bit thinner than the last two? Also, if Belkar does not die right in the climax, his death could be very much around the corner (in 20 or 40 strips).