Bardblade?

[Kaeso]

I've heard some people on these boards talk about the bardblade (bard-warblade multiclass) and how it's a good combo. I'd like to know why. It seems like a match made in Hell to me because it pairs a bard with a melee class that doesn't progress his bardic music or spells, and it limits the warblade by decreasing his BAB, hp and restricting him to light armor if he wants to use his small arsenal of bard spells.

There's no stat synergy either: a warblade is a melee class pur sang and only needs strength, con and a little bit of dex, while some extra int gives him a lot of goodies. Wisdom and Charisma are his only dumping stats, but cha is needed for bard spells and abilities. This makes the bardblade just as MAD as a monk!

[Greenish]

Bardblade is basically a warblade with Inspire Courage (which the warblade levels advance due to Song of White Raven). All manner of silly things can be done with IC.

You don't really need charisma, and the usual four levels of bard loses you a single point of BAB, no biggie.

As for light armour, well, what else would you use? Medium slows you down and kills Tumbling (there are ways around that, but still), and you're not even proficient with Heavy.

[Incanur]

You really do want 14 Cha if possible, assuming four levels of bard.

[Saint GoH]

Bardblade is basically a warblade with Inspire Courage (which the warblade levels advance due to Song of White Raven). All manner of silly things can be done with IC.


Mostly this. Get Song of the White Raven to bump your Inspire courage up via Warblade levels, then do shenanigans including Dragonfire Inspiration and Words of Creation to get stupid high +Inspire Courage (which in turn equals +atk and +dam or +d6's of damage) essentially making you a dps freak. Combine all that with even a rudimentary charge build and you become one nasty one trick pony with all the skills of a bard and tricks of a warblade.

[Kaeso]

Ok, so what's the standard bardblade build and why is inspire courage so useful to a warblade (rather than, say, 4 warblade levels which grants him more bab, hp, doesn't limit him to light armor and gives him extra manouvres and stances).

[Keld Denar]

Typical builds are generally Bard4/Warblade16 or Bard3/Warblade17. Both have their pros and cons.

Inspire Courage is rediciously easy to optimize. Search around for the Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (there is a handbook for EVERYTHING). With little effort, you can get +4/+4 to hit and damage by level 4, and thats barely trying. The real gem is then you use Dragonfire Inspiration to convert that all into +xd6 energy damage.

Now you take a bunch of Warblade levels, pick up some feats and abilities that give you a large number of attacks per round, stuff like Snap Kick, Raging Mongoose, and Time Stands Still, and watch as you fling literally hundreds of d6s worth of energy damage at your foes in a single round.

Bard casting is pretty much sacrificed. You only need 1 spell, Inspirational Boost, which is 1st level. You only need to cast it about 4 times per day (since you'll have 4 music uses with 4 bard levels). You only need about a 12 Cha (11 technically, but 12 gives you the bonus 1st level spell/day). Thus, your stat line looks pretty much exactly like a Warblade, not a Bard. Likewise, the rest of your songs are pretty much sacrificed. You don't have enough music uses to use them, and they are pretty crappy anyway. Just focus on IC to the detriment of all else. IC is golden. Heck, you don't even need any more than 3 ranks in Perform.

So, basically for the loss of 1 BAB, 2 ILs, and a handful of HP, you gain the staggeringly amazing Inspire Courage ability. If you just use basic IC, your bonus to hit more than makes up for the one lost BAB, and the bonus damage is often more than being 1 level of maneuvers behind. If you do Dragonfire Inspiration, its MUCH MUCH MUCH more.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There is also synergy with Bard and Crusader via the same feat. This method also has some extra synergy via CHA, possibly leading one to go the route of Snowflake Wardance and the like, but that is largely personal taste.

[Kaeso]

There's some good arguments, but there's a large problem I feel you're overlooking: You need at least one hand to play an instrument (often two), so you can't attack while playing bardic music.

@Keld: What are the pro's and cons of the two builds?

[Coidzor]

It's pretty fun. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)

Building off what Keld Denar said, there's some way that Eberronian bards can exchange music they won't use for bonus feats, IIRC, so if you go this route and only use IC then you might find your feat burden relaxed somewhat.

[Jude_H]

This makes the bardblade just as MAD as a monk!
It's only a Dependency if the character depends on it. A character with strong class features won't. A Swordsage essentially has the same framework as a Monk, as well as the same ability priorities, but it also has strong enough class features that it doesn't really matter. Ditto for a melee cleric. In the Monk's case, the class features are so underwhelming that the stats end up carrying a disproportionate amount of the class's weight.

To go to the absolute end of the spectrum, a Totemist//Factotum//Cleric//Sorcerer//Swordsage would have abilities based on just about every stat, but it's hard to deny that it could outpace a Con-SAD Dragonfire Adept.

Unlike the Monk, Bard/Warblade has abilities cued off just about every stat, but it also has useful class features. Inspire Courage and maneuvers generate enough damage that it doesn't have to rely on high strength for attack or damage (but it helps). Armor proficiencies mean dexterity isn't such a big deal (but again, it's still useful). The Int bonuses to skills and Warblade powers are beneficial if they're available, but without them, the character would still have a high attack bonus, reflex save, damage &c.

The point of the Bard/Warblade combination is full Inspire Courage on a melee framework. I might even call it weaker than a straight Bard, but it can tear it up in close combat, which is pretty cool. Just for how Inspire Courage works and why it matters, I'm just going to leave Endarire's handbook link here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0).

[Timeless Error]

There's some good arguments, but there's a large problem I feel you're overlooking: You need at least one hand to play an instrument (often two), so you can't attack while playing bardic music.

Try Perform (sing). Singing doesn't require the use of hands.

[Lateral]

There's some good arguments, but there's a large problem I feel you're overlooking: You need at least one hand to play an instrument (often two), so you can't attack while playing bardic music.

Perform (Sing), Perform (Oratory), et cetera. Really, there's no conflict there at all.

I'm actually playing a Silverbrow Human Bardblade right now. It's not exactly a standard Bardblade- he's also a tripper, so the build is Bard 2/ Fighter 1/ Warblade 5/ Crusader 1 at 9th level (I needed that bonus feat and Thicket of Blades, and I only lost 1 level of progression of IC anyway). He's pretty awesome- activate Inspire Courage as a swift action, initiate a maneuver for heavy damage, and be perfectly positioned for tripping when someone tries to attack or move away.

[Jude_H]

There's some good arguments, but there's a large problem I feel you're overlooking: You need at least one hand to play an instrument (often two), so you can't attack while playing bardic music.
The music lasts half a minute after you start. More with feats and equipment. That typically means the whole fight.

Song of the White Raven means you can strum a power chord as a Swift action if it does run out. It's difficult to do for the full effect, but even unbuffed IC is pretty significant.

Edit: Singing costs a Masterwork weapon instrument bonus, so it's probably not the best route.

[Coidzor]

There's some good arguments, but there's a large problem I feel you're overlooking: You need at least one hand to play an instrument (often two), so you can't attack while playing bardic music.

Your characters only have one hand? :smallconfused: You don't even need an instrument, though the masterwork ones like wardrums and alphorns are quite interesting at times for battlefield force multiplication without using an Admiral's Bicorn, but how often are you going to be fighting on the army level?

[Lateral]

Edit: Singing costs a Masterwork weapon bonus, so it's probably not the best route.

What are you using the bonus to Perform (Sing) for, though? All you need is three ranks in it to get Inspire Courage, you don't really need to ever make a check. If anything, it saves you cash.

[Jude_H]

What are you using the bonus to Perform (Sing) for, though? All you need is three ranks in it to get Inspire Courage, you don't really need to ever make a check. If anything, it saves you cash.
Look at Song and Silence or Complete Adventurer. Many Masterwork Instruments increase IC bonuses, or rearrange them. You might be able to get the benefit without actually using the instrument, but that smacks of abuse.

[Keld Denar]

Well, in the end, both lose 2 ILs, so they are the same in that regard. The Bard3 one will end up with a couple more HP, but one fewer BM use per day. The big difference is when you take the first Warblade level. At ECL4, the Bard3/Warblade1 will already have his maneuvers, which is fun. At ECL5, however, the Bard4/Warblade1 will get to pick 2nd level maneuvers (IL3) with his first 3 picks, which is ultimately slightly stronger. Going Bard4 doesn't impact your BAB though, since the BAB hit is at 1st level on a 3/4 BAB class. Bard4 also gets a 2nd level spell, but you won't really have any use for it outside of maybe a pre-combat Alter Self.

Really, the differences are pretty minor.

You need at least 3 levels of Bard, though, to get Inspire Competance, which is a prereq for the feat Songs of the Heart which gives you an important boost to your IC. Beyond that, its pretty minor tradeoffs.

[Coidzor]

Edit: Singing costs a Masterwork weapon bonus, so it's probably not the best route.

If you're going down that route then no bard should ever be anything but Exalted + Words of Creation. Though I think you mean Masterwork Instrument in this case, since singing doesn't stop one from wielding a masterwork or magical weapon like a harmonizing crystal echoblade

[Elric VIII]

I like the image of using the Masterwork Horn in one hand while wielding a one-handed weapon for Snowflake Wardance in the other.

Throw in Savage Bard and you've got yourself a viking-style herald.

[Jude_H]

If you're going down that route then no bard should ever be anything but Exalted + Words of Creation. Though I think you mean Masterwork Instrument in this case, since singing doesn't stop one from wielding a masterwork or magical weapon like a harmonizing crystal echoblade
Good call. Fixed.

I usually don't assume WoC, because of the high stat requirements, absolutely terrible alignment, and the dirty feeling of getting that massive of a bonus from one feat. It's definitely the way to crank out the highest benefit, though.

[Keld Denar]

Crystal Echoblade probably isn't the strongest choice in this case. It gives you a boost to damage equal to your Bard level, but you only have 3-4 bard levels. Thats a lot of money to pay for +3-4 damage.

Likewise, nothing stops you from singing while fighting, so Harmonizing isn't an overtly amazing buy for the buck either. Unless you get stunned, dazed, knocked unconsious, or stuck in the area of a Silence spell that you can't escape, it costs you nothing to maintain the song. Chances are the 5 rounds you get automatically are long enough to get the job done if even if you do.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Crystal Echoblade probably isn't the strongest choice in this case. It gives you a boost to damage equal to your Bard level, but you only have 3-4 bard levels. Thats a lot of money to pay for +3-4 damage.

Likewise, nothing stops you from singing while fighting, so Harmonizing isn't an overtly amazing buy for the buck either. Unless you get stunned, dazed, knocked unconsious, or stuck in the area of a Silence spell that you can't escape, it costs you nothing to maintain the song. Chances are the 5 rounds you get automatically are long enough to get the job done if even if you do.

It is very helpful if you are 'twisting' songs, such as using both IC and DFI simultaneously to get both static bonuses AND bonus d6's.

Of course, the other major thing to consider about a Bardblade is that you're also boosting the hell out of your allies as well. And do any of your casters like to toss out Summon Disposable Minion spells? Guess what, it affects them as well (barring immunity to morale effects like undead, but there's a feat for that, too), and suddenly your IC and DFI bonuses are applied a truly massive number of times.

For example, in a 6th level party, a Summon Monster 3 can summon 1d4+1 dire badgers, each with 3 attacks, times your +5d6 sneak attack. And, because of the +5 bonus to hit and damage, they're actually landing those hits. So, 2-5 has an average of 3.5 badgers * 3 * 5 = at least 45 damage, just on the +5 morale bonus to damage. To say nothing of the extra 45d6 damage they'll be stacking on top of that.

[Kaeso]

I think I now understand why the bardblade is considered to be a nice combo, but isn't the warchanter PrC from complete warrior better? It also grants you full BAB, progresses your bardic music and gives you some extra, very nice songs. It's just a shame it doesn't progress your spellcasting.

EDIT: Or a blade singer? It also gives full BAB, some extra songs and 5/10 casting.

[Lateral]

No, because this way you are also an 18th-level martial adept. It means a huge amount of extra combat capability for a reasonably small investment.

Really, you have to stop thinking about a bardblade or bardsader as a multiclass bard/warblade or crusader. It's not. It's a warblade or crusader with inspire courage and a small amount of utility casting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think I now understand why the bardblade is considered to be a nice combo, but isn't the warchanter PrC from complete warrior better? It also grants you full BAB, progresses your bardic music and gives you some extra, very nice songs. It's just a shame it doesn't progress your spellcasting.

EDIT: Or a blade singer? It also gives full BAB, some extra songs and 5/10 casting.

Nope.

Or rather, Warchanter is good on top of it, but not instead of it. Here's why:

Read Warchanter real carefully. Notice how it says that while it grants additional uses of bardic music, it never advances your bardic music that you do have. So once you go into warchanter, your IC freezes.

Having said that, it is nice. Song of Legion is just stupid sick when you've got a bunch of 3/4 BAB guys in the party who do ridiculous melee damage (TWFing rogues, TWFing swordsages) and is even nastier with summons. Remember what I said in my previous post about the badgers? Now those badgers, a 1st level summon, have the BAB you do. In addition to all the other bonuses. Suddenly, they become a dire (pun intended) threat to anything. They *have* to be respected as a threat, because otherwise they will rip anything's arse off.

Double song is also nice. Round one, you drop both DFI and IC down. Then twist with Song of Legion. Proceed to mob grinding. Have a nice day.

[Kaeso]

No, because this way you are also an 18th-level martial adept. It means a huge amount of extra combat capability for a reasonably small investment.

Really, you have to stop thinking about a bardblade or bardsader as a multiclass bard/warblade or crusader. It's not. It's a warblade or crusader with inspire courage and a small amount of utility casting.

Okay, if you put it that way it sounds pretty good. I'm convinced then I guess. It's just a shame that you can't take any PrC (like eternal blade or master of nine)

[Cadian 9th]

I think they're talking about Masterwork Instruments - a masterwork mandolin gives you +1 on attack rolls for Inspire Courage, which is an extra +d6 damage with Dragonfire, for 100gp. If you have words of creation that's +2d6.

[Lateral]

Okay, if you put it that way it sounds pretty good. I'm convinced then I guess. It's just a shame that you can't take any PrC (like eternal blade or master of nine)

Yeah, it sucks a little, but ToB characters are perfectly awesome without PrCs.

[Kaeso]

Yeah, it sucks a little, but ToB characters are perfectly awesome without PrCs.

And what would be good manouvres/stances for a bardblade? I know the stances are probably heavily in the white raven territory, but which ones are the best?

[Lateral]

Generally, as warblade. Pretty often, you'll actually want to activate IC as a standard action; Warblades are pretty strapped for swift actions as-is.

Lookie here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968) White Raven has good synergy with bardblades, and you really can't go wrong with Diamond Mind or Iron Heart.

[Optimator]

At high levels with LA buy-off Half-Dragon becomes more attractive. Battle Dragons are highly thematically appropriate and give sonic damage to boot, and the strength boost helps offset Power Attack even more.

AS far as maneuvers go, White raven is thematically appropriate as well. White Raven stances are a given. TWFing is good for static damage boosters like IC damage and DFI damage. It all works, really.

[Jude_H]

EDIT: Or a blade singer? It also gives full BAB, some extra songs and 5/10 casting.
Those 'songs' are a ruse.

[Kaeso]

I have just one last question about the bardblade:
it was said earlier that the 'standard' build is bard4/warblade16 or bard3/warblade17.
Why? You get inspire courage at first level, and you need only one level of bard to get 3 ranks of perform. Wouldn't bard1/warblade19 be strictly better?

[Lateral]

I have just one last question about the bardblade:
it was said earlier that the 'standard' build is bard4/warblade16 or bard3/warblade17.
Why? You get inspire courage at first level, and you need only one level of bard to get 3 ranks of perform. Wouldn't bard1/warblade19 be strictly better?

You lose no BAB for going Bard 4 as opposed to Bard 1, lose a single initiator level, and gain access to 2nd level spells instead of only having cantrips.

[Jude_H]

Bard 1 only has 1 song/day. That's really rough. You can add feats to make it slightly less bad, but it's still pretty harsh.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have just one last question about the bardblade:
it was said earlier that the 'standard' build is bard4/warblade16 or bard3/warblade17.
Why? You get inspire courage at first level, and you need only one level of bard to get 3 ranks of perform. Wouldn't bard1/warblade19 be strictly better?

You need at least 1st level spells for more IC bonuses. 1st level bards only get cantrips. You also need enough of them to last the day.

[Optimator]

I thought someone already explained this, but if you delay entry into Warblade you can choose 2nd level maneuvers at first level and have slightly more spells and skills but no BAB loss.

[Keld Denar]

It is very helpful if you are 'twisting' songs, such as using both IC and DFI simultaneously to get both static bonuses AND bonus d6's.
Yea, but "twising" songs isn't very smart for a Bardblade, given that you only have 3-4 uses per day without dropping yet another feat. No, generally its best to stick to one, or the other, for a given combat, especially when you are using consumable resources like Inspirational Boost or your Badge of Valor to further pump your IC. If you want to do shananananananigans like that, play a straight bard, or character with bardic PrCs. Bardblades are pretty focused...1 round to buff, enter melee with fervor!


I have just one last question about the bardblade:
it was said earlier that the 'standard' build is bard4/warblade16 or bard3/warblade17.
Why? You get inspire courage at first level, and you need only one level of bard to get 3 ranks of perform. Wouldn't bard1/warblade19 be strictly better?
I already went into this. You need 3 levels are Bard to get Inspire Competance. Its crap, total crap, but it IS a prereq to take the feat "Songs of the Heart" from the Eberron Campaign Setting, which gives you a +1 boost on all songs, including Inspire Courage. It also gives you the extra BM uses you need to be relevant in more than one combat per day without dropping yet ANOTHER feat on Extra Music.

It also costs you very little, in terms of ILs, which is a boon. Slightly fewer hit points in return for a couple extra skill points and a bit more oomph.