1st Time Optimizing

[AtlanteanTroll]

What It Says on the Tin.

How exactly do I go about doing this? I saw some thread talking about Monk dips, and I decided for my next game I want to start out as a Monk and then go into Cleric. Still not sure about anything else really. I'm just doing it because it sounds fun and it's easier for (me) to RP.

[King Atticus]

Could be tricky. Owing to the fact that most of your cool Monk stuff requires you to be unarmored and unencumbered and as a Cleric you want to pile on the Armor to take advantage of that whole lack of ASF thing (which is pretty glorious). The one thing I can recommend is Intuitive Attack (BoED PG 44)Won't help with damage but it will keep you from having to max out your strength. You can rely on weapon mods for melee damage. I know this wasn't a ton of help but hopefully a start.

[Sucrose]

Strictly speaking, I doubt that it's your first time optimizing, unless you pick every one of your character's traits out of a table via random dice rolls.

That bit of pedantry out of the way, simplest method would be going Monk 1/Cleric 19 or Monk 2/Cleric 18. Much like Monk 1/Druid 19, this actually works reasonably well from a power perspective. You have fists that are at least not laughable, and you get all the spellcasting goodness of CoDzilla.

Intuitive Attack is indeed quite good if you can swing playing an Exalted character; it does require being considerably more idealistic than most PCs.

What sort of character are you wanting to make? Knowing the restrictions will prevent us from making big piles of numbers that prevent you from playing who you want to play.

If you want to emphasize unarmed combat more, you can enter the Sacred Fist prestige class from Complete Divine. Ideal entry method is probably Monk 2/Cleric 4. Advances your AC bonus, your fast movement, and your unarmed damage, and provides a few decent class features, but costs a feat on Combat Casting, along with fixing what feats you can take with your Monk levels. You may want to get out before level 8, as it costs a second caster level at that point, preventing you from getting 9th level spells pre-Epic.

[Lateral]

If you just want a Cleric with a dip in Monk, then Monk 1/ Cleric 19 is perfectly fine (and, honestly, more powerful than most of whatever else you could be doing.) If you want more of a cleric who actually fights in melee with his fists, be a Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist. (If you are using fractional BAB, Monk 1/Cleric 5 is a better entry, but you don't qualify like that without fractional BAB.)

[Jude_H]

Are you using fractional BA/saves?

Travel Devotion is probably required. Law Devotion would be nice at a higher level, if you can ramp up your Turnings/day.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Could be tricky. Owing to the fact that most of your cool Monk stuff requires you to be unarmored and unencumbered and as a Cleric you want to pile on the Armor to take advantage of that whole lack of ASF thing (which is pretty glorious). The one thing I can recommend is:

BoED PG 44

Won't help with damage but it will keep you from having to max out your strength. You can rely on weapon mods for melee damage. I know this wasn't a ton of help but hopefully a start.

Hey! My DM has the BoED, I know that for a fact. Don't know when this begame'll actually starting though.


Strictly speaking, I doubt that it's your first time optimizing, unless you pick every one of your character's traits out of a table via random dice rolls.

Uh, good point.

That bit of pedantry out of the way, simplest method would be going Monk 1/Cleric 19 or Monk 2/Cleric 18. Much like Monk 1/Druid 19, this actually works reasonably well from a power perspective. You have fists that are at least not laughable, and you get all the spellcasting goodness of CoDzilla.

Doesn't King Atticus have a good point though? (About the armor thing.)

Intuitive Attack is indeed quite good if you can swing playing an Exalted character; it does require being considerably more idealistic than most PCs.

What does being Exalted involve, exactly?

What sort of character are you wanting to make? Knowing the restrictions will prevent us from making big piles of numbers that prevent you from playing who you want to play.

If you want to emphasize unarmed combat more, you can enter the Sacred Fist prestige class from Complete Divine. Ideal entry method is probably Monk 2/Cleric 4. Advances your AC bonus, your fast movement, and your unarmed damage, and provides a few decent class features, but costs a feat on Combat Casting, along with fixing what feats you can take with your Monk levels. You may want to get out before level 8, as it costs a second caster level at that point, preventing you from getting 9th level spells pre-Epic.

Yes. I like hitting. Though I realize that one higher levels get around, magic becomes a better way to fight. That's kind of why I dont want to play a straight fighter this time a round.

EDIT:


If you just want a Cleric with a dip in Monk, then Monk 1/ Cleric 19 is perfectly fine (and, honestly, more powerful than most of whatever else you could be doing.) If you want more of a cleric who actually fights in melee with his fists, be a Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist. (If you are using fractional BAB, Monk 1/Cleric 5 is a better entry, but you don't qualify like that without fractional BAB.)

I'm pretty sure we aren't using fraction BAB.

[Big Fau]

Here's a link to the Cleric handbook, to help you get started. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)


As stated, taking more than one level in Monk is a bad idea. It's also a bad idea to take more than a specific number of Cleric levels (because you don't get actual class features past 1st level). Here's a list of Cleric prestige classes. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10556.0)

[Lateral]

If you're doing a Sacred Fist, then, go with Monk 2- you won't meet BAB requirements if you only take 1 level.

[Sucrose]

Exalted means never doing an evil deed. Ever. It's basically ten times as hamstrung as a Paladin. I'm not sure if you can even atone enough to be considered Exalted if you break your alignment. If you take any Vow feats, things get more restrictive than that.

The option of using full armor is indeed quite glorious. However, as you're going for a pugilist, there's not much that can be done to provide you with armor, unless you're willing to go with Unarmed Swordsage (and even then it's only light, though that's enough to get tasty magic item effects).

I was reluctant to give that advice at first, since it takes two levels of Swordsage to get Wisdom to AC, it doesn't give the bonus feats necessary to get into Sacred Fist, it doesn't get a facimile of Flurry of Blows prior to level 3 (Flashing Sun), and you asked for advice concerning a Monk/Cleric. People sometimes get testy when advised to change classes.

If you do go the Swordsage route, it'll provide you with some rather useful maneuvers, which could allow you to do enough extra damage that not focusing on Strength as your primary stat won't hurt as badly with respect to your damage. There's not as much support for Swordsage, though.

Useful feats for you in any case will include Travel Devotion, the aforementioned Intuitive Attack, Practised Spellcaster (Complete Divine), and Snap Kick (Tome of Battle). If you do get Intuitive Attack, be sure to find some way of getting extra damage on your attacks, or else your hits, while frequent, won't do a whole lot.

[Akal Saris]

Just some general tips for starting optimizers:

1. The easiest way to start is to crack open the DMG, choose a prestige class, and stat out a character's feat and level progression from 1-20 using the PHB classes and feats and that prestige class. Don't worry about equipment or anything - just get a feel for the process of thinking through how a character develops from 1-20. For example, look at the Hierophant and Loremaster prestige classes - try making a cleric with levels in both of them.

2. Skim through the cleric guide listed earlier. Keep an eye out for a specific theme that appeals to you, or a combo of 2-3 feats, or a prestige class that sounds nifty. Sacred Fist, for example. Then stat out a possible progression for a character using those things.

3. When making a character, try to create one that's both good in combat and has 1 or more non-combat roles.

4. Try to keep in mind these benchmarks:
Caster classes: don't lose caster levels unless its central to your character. Even then, don't lose more than 1 or 2.
Melee classes: find a useful ability for your standard actions, or a way to get pounce. Aim for +16 BAB by level 20, minimum.
High Skills classes: Make sure you quickly get 1 rank in all class skills that are trained-only, such as Use Magic Device. 5 ranks in a skill is another major milestone, in order to get synergy bonuses. Finally, try to estimate how many skill points you need to auto-succeed at a common check, like Concentration to Cast Defensively.

5. When you're making a character for a real game, look at what the other players are playing, and then adapt accordingly. If the party has a Wizard, a Sorcerer, and a Rogue, then you might want to play a cleric, for example. Why? Because you can be a good frontliner and you can cast divine spells that the party will likely need.

Roles:

Common primary roles that are always useful:
Frontliner - tank (somebody focused on keeping opponents from reaching allies)
Frontliner - high damage (sneak attack or many natural attacks)
Arcane caster
Divine caster
High skills
Party booster

Secondary roles that are often useful:
Smart guy - has many knowledge skills, lore, or bardic knowledge
Nature guy - has survival, possibly track, knowledge (nature, dungeoneering), handle animal
Trap-finding guy - has Trapfinding, search, spot, disable device, a way of opening doors
Party face - high charisma or charm spells, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy, intimidate
Healer - Somebody to patch up wounds after the battle, remove poisons/diseases/etc
Divinations or scout - Somebody to get advanced knowledge through either stealth+spot abilities, or divinations
Mobility - no, not a monk, I mean somebody who can provide teleport, water breathing, free action, plane shift, and fly.


Anyhow, I know this post was rather long, but hopefully it will help with your future optimization goals :smalltongue:

[GoatBoy]

You may want to get out before level 8, as it costs a second caster level at that point, preventing you from getting 9th level spells pre-Epic.

Actually, this is incorrect due to a technicality. Although the Sacred Fist's class table gives 8/10 caster level progression, the text says that CL increases every time you gain a level. The official WotC policy is that when tables disagree with text, the rules stated in the text take precedence.

This was most likely a typo, but no one has ever pointed out the Sacred Fist as being overpowered. Wisdom to AC while wearing light armor, unarmed damage progression, and the other class features seem worth one caster level and a feat to me. Only one level of monk is needed to skirt the huge pre-reqs for Stunning Fist. Combat Reflexes can be taken as a regular feat.

[only1doug]

If you just want a Cleric with a dip in Monk, then Monk 1/ Cleric 19 is perfectly fine (and, honestly, more powerful than most of whatever else you could be doing.) If you want more of a cleric who actually fights in melee with his fists, be a Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist. (If you are using fractional BAB, Monk 1/Cleric 5 is a better entry, but you don't qualify like that without fractional BAB.)

An Alternate route would be Monk 1 / Cleric 6 / Sacred Fist X.

Slower entry but preserves caster level.

Go with Plate (losing some monk benefits) until you can cast Greater Luminous Armour (hereafter referred to as GLA) with enough duration to cover your daily needs then GLA + Monk Belt will do nicely for your AC needs. You could save taking the monk level until Your GLA is good enough to cover your needs but Taking Monk as your first level would probably be better for skillpoints and hitpoints (and easier to justify the level in character).

[Sucrose]

Actually, this is incorrect due to a technicality. Although the Sacred Fist's class table gives 8/10 caster level progression, the text says that CL increases every time you gain a level. The official WotC policy is that when tables disagree with text, the rules stated in the text take precedence.

This was most likely a typo, but no one has ever pointed out the Sacred Fist as being overpowered. Wisdom to AC while wearing light armor, unarmed damage progression, and the other class features seem worth one caster level and a feat to me. Only one level of monk is needed to skirt the huge pre-reqs for Stunning Fist. Combat Reflexes can be taken as a regular feat.

Hm. Never noticed that. Well, if Atlantean's DM would allow that technical of a rules reading to fly (and given that you're not really much better off as a Sacred Fist than as a straight Cleric, there's not much reason why he wouldn't) then yes, that could work. I do think that a second level of Monk might be worthwhile for his fighting style, though, since Divine Power doesn't come online until level 8 even with only one Monk level, and in the meantime having something closer to a half-decent BAB could be useful.

[Joshinthemosh]

This was most likely a typo, but no one has ever pointed out the Sacred Fist as being overpowered. Wisdom to AC while wearing light armor, unarmed damage progression, and the other class features seem worth one caster level and a feat to me. Only one level of monk is needed to skirt the huge pre-reqs for Stunning Fist. Combat Reflexes can be taken as a regular feat.

Okay after another reading of the Complete Divine I can not see the whole Wisdom to AC while wearing light armor thing. It does say(below) but I do not see where you are getting Wisdom to AC. If you are indeed right I will be quite excited.


AC Bonus (Ex): A sacred fi st is highly trained at dodging
blows, and he has a sixth sense that lets him avoid even
unanticipated attacks. When unencumbered and wearing
light or no armor, a sacred fi st gains a +1 bonus to his AC.
This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level and to +3 at 10th.
This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or
when the sacred fist is flat-footed. He loses the bonus when
he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor
heavier than light armor, when he carries a shield, or when
he carries a medium or heavy load.

[Jude_H]

If you go with the Monk 2/anything, you might want to check out the Exemplars of Evil Monk Invisible Fist acf. It makes a character Invisible for a round as an immediate action (but without the limitations of the spell), in exchange for Evasion. Even with the Monk's basic saves, your Dex probably isn't going to be great; Evasion's not that big a loss. Despite the book's title, the acf isn't limited to Evil characters.

And regarding the OP, if you want some guidance on how to do the optimization thing, Surreal's CO index (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872646/Some_handy_links_for_CO_work) used to basically be the bible for that stuff. It looks like the Wizards boards have purged a lot of it over the years, but it still might direct you to some decent starting points, if you have a concept to work on. Tshern started a continuation (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=143.0) of the same thing on BG.

[Coidzor]

Exalted means never doing an evil deed. Ever. It's basically ten times as hamstrung as a Paladin. I'm not sure if you can even atone enough to be considered Exalted if you break your alignment. If you take any Vow feats, things get more restrictive than that.

Indeed, and unlike the Paladin who can atone and get everything back, any Exalted feats one had are not only lit on fire, but the feat slots they occupied are also destroyed even if one is using retraining rules. :smallyuk:

[Cog]

Okay after another reading of the Complete Divine I can not see the whole Wisdom to AC while wearing light armor thing. It does say(below) but I do not see where you are getting Wisdom to AC. If you are indeed right I will be quite excited.
You are correct; Sacred Fist gets an AC bonus even while in light armor, but Wis is not factored into it. Note that, even unarmored, this bonus likely doesn't stack with the Monk bonus, as both bonuses have the same named source (the "AC Bonus" class feature).

[true_shinken]

You are correct; Sacred Fist gets an AC bonus even while in light armor, but Wis is not factored into it. Note that, even unarmored, this bonus likely doesn't stack with the Monk bonus, as both bonuses have the same named source (the "AC Bonus" class feature).

...now that is a bit excessive. This way you end up with sneak attack from most classes not stacking with Rogue's.

[Cog]

...now that is a bit excessive. This way you end up with sneak attack from most classes not stacking with Rogue's.
Except that almost every one of those classes specifically state that they do stack, to get around precisely this problem.

IIRC, even the FAQ agreed on this one, though it was in the context of Swordsage and Monk.

[Urpriest]

...now that is a bit excessive. This way you end up with sneak attack from most classes not stacking with Rogue's.

Don't suppose you've heard Curmudgeon's take on just that very issue? :smalltongue:

[true_shinken]

Don't suppose you've heard Curmudgeon's take on just that very issue? :smalltongue:
Yeah, I just think he is wrong, since it's obviously supposed to stack. :smallamused:

About Swordsage vs Monk, the FAQ does not adress it. It adresses Ninja vs Monk, and the abilities don't stack because they do exactly the same. Sacred Fist's AC Bonus is a very different ability from Monk's, so I really can't seem them not stacking. 'same source' is not exactly well defined in the rules, so it basically comes down to each DM. If you get one that is so fixated on the RAW, stacking or not will be the least of your problems.

[Cog]

Yeah, I just think he is wrong, since it's obviously supposed to stack. :smallamused:
How is it obvious except for the ones that obviously say something like "this stacks with similar abilities"? [Insert standard how-can-we-know-RAI-argument here.]


About Swordsage vs Monk, the FAQ does not adress it. It adresses Ninja vs Monk, and the abilities don't stack because they do exactly the same.
From a little more searching, apparently it was in a CustServ statement somewhere, but it's not the basis for my argument so it's beside the point.


Sacred Fist's AC Bonus is a very different ability from Monk's, so I really can't seem them not stacking.
I'd disagree. They're both named AC bonus and both give you an increasing number to AC based on class level so long as you meet an armor restriction.


'same source' is not exactly well defined in the rules...
You're adding a number to your AC that you weren't adding before. How is the source of that number anything but the class feature "AC Bonus"? It can't be Wisdom, because nothing in the description of the Wisdom stat applies it to AC, and it can't be the class as a whole, because then things like Mage Armor and Shield wouldn't work because the source for both would be Wizard instead of the individual abilities.


...so it basically comes down to each DM. If you get one that is so fixated on the RAW, stacking or not will be the least of your problems.
Or, perhaps, the DM is simply interested in trying to understand the RAW before changing it. If you're making a houserule, it's probably best to at least know that you're doing so. Or, perhaps, that you can now be a monk and still wear armor might actually be considered a benefit already.

[Big Fau]

Ok, can we please get back on track? Leave the stacking issue to the OP's DM (when and if it comes up).


One thing to note is that Sacred Fist prevents you from using any kind of weapon, including Rays (and possibly Touch spells that deal damage). Get a ruling from your DM before he brings it up mid-campaign and you end up screwed over.

[Jude_H]

One thing to note is that Sacred Fist prevents you from using any kind of weapon, including Rays (and possibly Touch spells that deal damage). Get a ruling from your DM before he brings it up mid-campaign and you end up screwed over.
Huh. I guess that raises two questions for me:

Are Rays weapons? That could make some Chaotic Soulcaster specialty builds a bit more interesting.

Is losing rays an issue? Barring Divine Magician, the only ray I've used as a Cleric is Dimensional Anchor. Losing that would be a drag, but somebody in the group can probably cast it, regardless.

[Cog]

We had a discussion of what bonuses apply to what attacks back here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192778). Basically, a ray would apply bonus damage, but not bonus weapon damage.

Edit: This would suggest that you could use rays just fine.

[Greenish]

Okay after another reading of the Complete Divine I can not see the whole Wisdom to AC while wearing light armor thing. It does say(below) but I do not see where you are getting Wisdom to AC. If you are indeed right I will be quite excited.You get the Wisdom to AC from your monk level. :smallamused:

As for heavy armour, eh, low levels the full plate and shield might be nice (though at lowest levels, you can't even afford full plate), but at higher levels your spells should be enough. You get your Sacred Fist Bonus (+5, wasn't it?), Wis to AC (4-15 or so), Greater Luminous Armour (+8 [and -4 penalty on enemies' attacks in melee]) and Magic Vestments (1-5).

That's about AC 40 for two 3rd level spells, and that's before magic items (Natural Armour, Deflection, etc).

[Jude_H]

Digging around, I'm having trouble finding anything that characterizes weapon-like spells as "weapons." I'm finding a lot of sources that say they aren't weapons. I think the Sacred Fist is in the clear.

edit:
Or what Cog said. <_<

[Divide by Zero]

Rays are categorized as weaponlike spells. They are not weapons, at least in the sense that Sacred Fist uses the term.