Jade Phoenix Mage?

[Rhaegar14]

Hey guys. Playing a Jade Phoenix Mage out of Tome of Battle in an upcoming 3.5e campaign starting from level 1. I've glanced over it mentally, but want to know how you all think I should build it (Wizard vs. Sorceror, Swordsage vs. Warblade vs. Crusader, feats, maneuvers, etc). I am going to be neither primary melee (Champion of Corellon has that covered) or primary arcane (that goes to the Wu Jen), so nothing is really "expected" of me.

I've realized I should take Arcane Strike asap and make my first level be as a martial adept, not as a caster, and should eventually take Practiced Spellcaster. Gogo optimizers lol.

[Dylaer]

I'd personally go Warblade/Sorcerer out of those. You won't need a massive Cha score if you're just going for the buffs. Pick some area control spells like grease and whatnot, some Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon too.

[Veyr]

Wizard is a fair bit better than Sorcerer, between earlier spells and the ability to redo his spell list every day. Plus a free feat that can be from the Fighter list, which is damn good, especially for this character. Not saying the Sorcerer doesn't have things going for it (Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Spellsurge), but I think Wizard's a bit better.

Plus Jade Phoenix Mage requires a bunch of Knowledge skills that are going to be costly for a Sorcerer.

Somewhat paradoxically, I like Crusader best from the martial adepts for this: the best recovery mechanic, access to Devoted Spirit (a very powerful discipline to begin with, and one which JPM advances — very useful), and I personally rather like Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike as class features. Cha shouldn't really come into play; you won't stay in the class long enough to get the Cha-based features.

The Warblade has a very good recovery mechanic as well, and has very powerful disciplines in the form of Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven, but the JPM doesn't advance those. Flip side, shared Int synergy between Wizard and Warblade, but you're unlikely to take more than 1 level so it's just Int to Reflex saves, which is kind of minor.

The Swordsage has the most maneuvers known, but you miss out on that if you're in JPM, and Desert Wind, while progressed by JPM, is much weaker than Devoted Spirit; this all on a class that has a terribad recovery mechanic. The Swordsage is good, but you're missing out on its best features (Shadow Hand and the sheer number of maneuvers) by going JPM. You also lose a quarter of a BAB, which is not really that important but worth mentioning.

Anyway, you definitely do not want to take the martial adept levels first. Martial adepts get to choose their maneuvers based on their initiator level, which is increased by having other class levels, so a Crusader 1 can choose 5 first-level maneuvers, while a Wizard 8/Crusader 1 can choose 5 third-level maneuvers. This makes a big difference.

So definitely start with your spellcasting levels. You'll need at least 3 (or 4 if Sorcerer), but you need to be ECL 6 before you can qualify for JPM anyway. Since spellcasting is, sadly, still much better than initiating, it makes the most sense to fill in the extra levels with spellcasting rather than more initiator levels; moreover, initiators suffer from lost levels much less than spellcasters do. So you're looking at spellcaster 5/initiator 1/JPM x. It may be worth considering going spellcaster 8/initiator 1/JPM x, depending on the level ranges you're expecting to play in: eventually the build is likely to be spellcaster 9/initiator 1/JPM 10, and thanks to the way initiator level works, it's optimal to do the spellcasting levels first rather than later.

TL;DR: I recommend Wizard 5/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage x, or Wizard 8/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage x if you're likely to be playing in the 15-20 range. Working in Abjurant Champion seems wise.

[Jude_H]

Typically I prefer some variant on:

Wizard 4/Crusader 1/[caster] 1/JPM 2/Abjurant Champion [4 or 5]/JPM X

Preferred feats:
-> Practiced Spellcaster
-> Power Attack
-> Combat Casting
-> Knowledge Devotion
-> Extend Spell
-> Persist Spell

Regarding class choices (spoilered for length):

Wizard is simply the best spellcasting platform available. If it doesn't have enough spells, specialize. If it's still not enough, go focused specialist. Specializations in Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation are ideal, but I'd only recommend focused specialization in Trans. It just has an overwhelming number of gish spells. Useful variants are the Fighter Bonus feat variant from Unearthed Arcana, the Abrupt Jaunt familiar replacement in PHB2 for conjurers, the Domain ability ACF in Complete Champion and the Spontaneous Divination ACF from the same book (the last being more for utility spells than for gish-boosting).

I find Crusader to be the ideal base for three reasons.
-1- Its recovery mechanic. The Warblade cannot cast when it's recovering. That means there are rounds when all your gish can do is attack like an ordinary chump. That sounds like a small issue, but in play, it's huge. Crusader has no such limitation
-2- Devoted Spirit access. JPM doesn't gain many maneuvers, and if you haven't already started down the DS track, you'll be tossing low-level maneuvers around for a long time. Crusader allows you to breeze by prerequisites, into more level-appropriate abilities.
-3- Durability. The Warblade has lighter armor (only relevant for Runesmiths) and, despite its larger hit dice, a more fragile base. The Crusader's DS maneuvers keep it standing during those awkward levels when the JPM's abilities have it in the front lines, but the Wizard's spells still don't compensate for missed HP.
-also- Its weapon and armor proficiencies also allow access to classes like Runesmith, Spellsword, Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom, which Warblade entrance simply doesn't allow. Runesmith is the only one relevant here.

Wizard First?
Yes. Because that means higher-level maneuvers, and skill point allocation where it's more useful. Typically, it will mean avoiding the front lines until level 5 or 6. It's not a huge deal to switch this around, though.

Level 6 is open. There's a case for it going to more Wizard for a bonus feat or ACF, but I like Runesmith (races of stone). I'm a sucker for a Wizard in Full Plate.

Abjurant Champion is just an amazing base for a close combat wizard. Its automatic quickens, extends and AC boosts are fantastic, and its HD are too good to ignore. It's more than worth the feat and the maneuver delay. The big question is whether its worth the fifth level. Level 5 is a point of AC and 3rd-level quickening, but taking it means you won't finish your JPM progression pre-epic. Depending on how long you expect the game to go, it's a bit of a toss-up. Your initiator level isn't meaningfully affected either way. AbjChamp is in complete mage.


Regarding Feat Choices (spoilered for length):

Practiced Spellcaster avoids dispels and extends durations. The prior is almost required at high levels, the latter makes life less terrifying at low ones. Practiced Spellcaster is in Completes Divine and arcane.

Combat Casting isn't bad at low levels, and it gets you into Abjurant Champion.

Knowlege Devotion is a free damage source for Wizards. Even with JPM's skill requirements, you're going to need to do something with all those skill points. This feat turns them into damage.

Power attack is damage, once you have some attack bonuses going. It's not hard for you to get some attack bonuses going.

Extend Spell makes your spells go longer. It can make a min/lvl spell last an extra fight or two, it can make an hours/level spell go all day, it can double the mileage on your Wraithstrikes or Swift Fly spells.

Persistant Spell does the same thing, but gets to the point of being vaguely abusive. Especially if it applies to touch spells.

No Arcane Strike?
Abjurant Champion and JPM each have abilities with similar effects. They don't completely cover for it, but I don't think the difference is worth a feat. Maybe at very high levels, if you have a slot burning a hole in your pocket.

No Quicken?
Abjurant Champion already quickens low-level spells, and ToB characters always have need for swift actions. If you don't, you'll probably want arcane spellsurge in your spellbook more than you want the feat.


edit:
Ninja!

[Veyr]

Oh, I just realized something.

Wizard is massively better than Sorcerer here. A Wizard 9/initiator 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 gets 9th level spells. A Sorcerer 9/initiator 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 does not. This, in addition to the other issues (Wizard ACFs, Wizards getting a bonus feat or two, Wizards generally getting spells a level sooner, Wizards having all Knowledges as class skills to begin with) makes Wizard the overwhelmingly superior choice for spellcaster.

Also, Wizard 5/initiator 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4 seems better than my original suggestion; sadly you can't do AbjChamp before getting that level of initiator to up your IL at when you get your initial maneuvers, but the class features and BAB of AbjChamp make up for that. In particular, gets the desired BAB +16/+11/+6/+1 (actually +17) and 9th level spells, which is pretty much the standard by which Gishes are generally measured).

[Essence_of_War]

Would Duskblade be an option also?

[Amphetryon]

As others have said, delay initiator levels if possible.

Personally, I like Dread Necromancer/Crusader for Jade Phoenix Mage. You're a little sturdier with the DN base, have additional tricks up your sleeve, and are primarily CHA-driven.

[Veyr]

Would Duskblade be an option also?
Not a particularly good one. Duskblade's primary schtick comes from the Arcane Channeling feature, and that's incompatible with Martial Strikes. You could potentially use the full-attack variation on Arcane Channeling along with Martial Boosts/Counters to decent effect, but that requires Duskblade 13th, which is a rather limiting factor.


Personally, I like Dread Necromancer/Crusader for Jade Phoenix Mage. You're a little sturdier with the DN base, have additional tricks up your sleeve, and are primarily CHA-driven.
Ehhh... one, you don't get 9ths. That really hurts. Two, neither Crusader nor Jade Phoenix Mage advance your Rebuke Undead ability, which really gimps a lot of your class features. A Dread Necromancer 8/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 is an interesting option, but without progressing Rebuke Undead I don't think it's a good option.

If your DM approved a feat that did something like "Choose a class; that class now adds its levels to your existing levels for the purposes of Turn or Rebuke Undead", that would be worth considering, though.

[Rhaegar14]

Taking the initiator level first is because I'm starting at level 1. I've played a level 1 Wizard before. Frustrating does not even begin to describe how much it sucks. I would rather begin with the increased combat ability of the initiator.

[Gralamin]

Also, Wizard 5/initiator 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4 seems better than my original suggestion; sadly you can't do AbjChamp before getting that level of initiator to up your IL at when you get your initial maneuvers, but the class features and BAB of AbjChamp make up for that. In particular, gets the desired BAB +16/+11/+6/+1 (actually +17) and 9th level spells, which is pretty much the standard by which Gishes are generally measured).

I've actually played that character (Actually a Wizard 3 / Master Specialist 2 / Warblade 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 10 / Abjurant Champion 4). It works pretty nicely in game play, as long as you are careful with your action selection. The major issue is you have a bunch of Neat things to do with your standard action in melee, and a bunch of neat spells that take a standard action. Takes a bit of a balancing act.

[gorfnab]

Bard could work. At lower levels you get lots of skill points, light armor, and some minor healing. At higher levels you can get some nice buffing out of Inspire Courage and spells. Something like this would work for a build.
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8

Although Wu-Jens make for amusing JPMs. The spell Transcend Mortality coupled with the JPM's Emerald Immolation ability is hilarious.

[OverdrivePrime]

Taking the initiator level first is because I'm starting at level 1. I've played a level 1 Wizard before. Frustrating does not even begin to describe how much it sucks. I would rather begin with the increased combat ability of the initiator.

I've actually done it a few times, and the trick is to not get hit. Take wizard levels up to 4 and make sure you focus on self-buffs and thing to keep your keister outta the fire, while you do your best impression of a secondary line warrior. It's pretty if you don't mind pushing the envelope on close scrapes.

Make sure your constitution is your third-highest score (after int and strength), wear padded armor or better (spell failure be damned, it's better to have a spell fail than to get speared) and wield a hickory club like a baseball bat. A toad familiar will be helpful at these low levels, if you don't ACF out of a familiar.

Honestly, playing a melee-oriented wizard at low-levels is a lot of fun if you remember to prepare for trouble like Batman would.

[NNescio]

ACF -> Abrupt Jaunt (trade familiar). You are nearly impossible to kill at lower levels. Less so if you are in the thick of melee, but Abrupt Jaunt still adds significant survivability, and can be used offensively*.

*Which is probably a bad idea since it eats up your immediate action and you can't jaunt out of harms way for one round, but it's still fun nonetheless.

It does force you to specialize in Conjuration instead of Transmutation though. That said, Conjuration spells are still useful for a gish, and you can probably make way for at least one of them per spell level. Conjuration is also the best school in the early levels.

[Lonely Tylenol]

wear padded armor or better (spell failure be damned, it's better to have a spell fail than to get speared)

Don't bother; Mage Armor gives you a +4 armor bonus (or +6 if you use Greater Mage Armor when you get third-level spells), which overlaps (and exceeds) any mundane armor that you wear, and doesn't have an arcane spell failure.

Also, Player's Handbook II has a lot of interesting entry-level spells that help with damage and defense, drawn primarily from the Duskblade spell list (but also available to Wizards). Note that many of them have Swift (or Immediate) casting times, which means you can cast outside of your typical action economy. I think these (as well as the ones in the Spell Compendium) are pretty essential for any fighter-based gish type.

[OverdrivePrime]

Don't bother; Mage Armor gives you a +4 armor bonus (or +6 if you use Greater Mage Armor when you get third-level spells), which overlaps (and exceeds) any mundane armor that you wear, and doesn't have an arcane spell failure.

Agreed. However, at low levels, there are a lot of opportunities for you to be surprised, and thrust into combat before you can get a spell up. Sure, if you can get a break to cast Mage Armor, it's definitely better. By the time 5th level rolls around, I'm hoping to have at least a +1 mithral chain shirt of Twilight.

Mage armor is still great vs incorporeal creatures though. And if you can talk your DM into making it an abjuration spell, that'll be pure gold for you at later levels.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Agreed. However, at low levels, there are a lot of opportunities for you to be surprised, and thrust into combat before you can get a spell up. Sure, if you can get a break to cast Mage Armor, it's definitely better. By the time 5th level rolls around, I'm hoping to have at least a +1 mithral chain shirt of Twilight.

Mage armor is still great vs incorporeal creatures though. And if you can talk your DM into making it an abjuration spell, that'll be pure gold for you at later levels.

Mage Armor is pretty much the first thing I cast in the morning; if I don't have Mage Armor on, it's because it was dispelled at some point and I forgot to re-cast it/it was dispelled enough times for me (and the Sorceress, who also casts Mage Armor) to both run out of castings.

But I get what you're saying. :smallamused:

As far as Abjurant Champion is concerned, I'd house-rule it in any game I DM; Mage Armor (a staple of abjurers everywhere) not being an abjuration spell is just straight nitpicky.

[Saph]

Having played a lot of gish characters, I'd strongly recommend against starting with Wizard levels if you're beginning at level 1. Maximising your caster levels in a gish build is great if you get to start at level 10 or so, but a level 1 Wizard trying to be a fighter is just embarrassing to watch.

My favourite build for JPM goes something like this:

Levels 1-6

Warblade 1/Wizard 3/Crusader 1/Wizard 1

Due to the way the initiator level mechanics from ToB work, this gives you a set of level 1 maneuvers from Warblade, and a set of level 2s from Crusader. This gives you the best of both worlds - the low-level survivability of a Warblade (letting you start with goodies like Steel Wind and Moment of Perfect Mind) and a full set of level 2 maneuvers from Crusader (giving you Mountain Hammer, Foehammer, and one or two choices from White Raven)

Your main drawback over a fighter is the -2 BAB, but you won't be losing any more points of BAB and the extra maneuvers go a long way towards making up for it.

Level 7+

You now qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage, so you can max out your JPM levels. Alternatively, you can take a level of Spellsword and then go for Abjurant Champion - this delays your JPM maneuvers, but increases your AC and makes your JPM maneuvers better when you do get them.

Feat-wise I'd second Jude H's choices - he hit all the staples.

It makes for a very flexible and survivable character. The only real drawback is that the build's fairly complicated to use, as you have three sets of class features to remember - your Warblade maneuvers (refresh when you take a swift action + standard attack) your Crusader maneuvers (new one granted every combat round) and your Wizard spells (which should be mostly buffs and defence - your maneuvers provide the attack power). But if you can handle juggling all that, it's great fun to play.

[Tokuhara]

Personally, I like Dread Necromancer/Crusader for Jade Phoenix Mage. You're a little sturdier with the DN base, have additional tricks up your sleeve, and are primarily CHA-driven.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kzqpgkxtBD1qam4ufo1_500.png

Negative Energy Pop. Now with more Wight bile!

[Incanur]

Personally, I like Dread Necromancer/Crusader for Jade Phoenix Mage.

:smallconfused: That would require a bit of refluffing, wouldn't it?


I've played a level 1 Wizard before. Frustrating does not even begin to describe how much it sucks.

Wizards have plenty of potent options at level 1 (color spray kills people), though they can be glass cannons in the extreme. I'll agree it's hard to beat warblade or crusader when you've only got a single hit die, but wizard works fine.

[Elric VIII]

See if your DM would allow Faerie Mysteries Initiate to sub Int for Con when determining health.

It's horribly OP on a normal Wizard, but if you're throwing caster levels away on melee classes for a gish, it's what lets you survive.

[Eldariel]

Warblade gets you maneuvers from schools JPM doesn't have access to. Most notable is Iron Heart Surge which lies at the edge of what you can get from WB and requires you to delay the entry a bit (you need IL 5 to pick it up; means Wizard 6/Warblade 2 or Wizard 8/Warblade 1). It allows ending Anti-Magic Fields which can be convenient.

Crusader, on the hand, gets you base Devoted Spirit maneuvers which is the one worthwhile school JPM gets. Desert Wind is largely obsolete compared to arcane magic. Devoted Spirit is good though. Crusader would get you a kickstart to Devoted Spirit since you want it anyways; the low level maneuvers and the qualifications. Crusader recovery is also superior, though you need to invest a feat in Extra Granted Maneuver as a near-obligatory feat tax to make it worthwhile (otherwise the refresh takes a tad long and you have less control over which maneuvers you can use). Crusader recovery doesn't spend your actions though and as a Martial Adept/Mage you have more than enough uses for your Swift Actions to make Warblade's recovery a pain. It is, however, mechanically a bit annoying since you need something like maneuver cards to randomize the maneuvers you get.


Overall, Crusader is probably stronger for JPM to get deep into Devoted Spirit ASAP but there's something to be said about opening with Warblade for IHS, Sudden Leap and few other great low-level maneuvers. Either gives you access to the good low level White Raven (notably Leading the Charge Stance and perhaps Battle Leader's Charge and White Raven Tactics). Warblade's Int synergies are trivial since they amount to 1 point of Reflex-save; that's all you have time to get. Crusader gets no relevant Cha-synergies either so you really don't get much either way on that. For what it's worth though, Delayed Damage Pool probably outweighs Warblade's level 1 kit, for what it's worth at any rate.

[NNescio]

Crusader recovery doesn't spend your actions though and as a Martial Adept/Mage you have more than enough uses for your Swift Actions to make Warblade's recovery a pain. It is, however, mechanically a bit annoying since you need something like maneuver cards to randomize the maneuvers you get.


... I draw Leaping Flame.
I activate Burning Blade!
FLAAASSHING SUUUUN!!!

[Veyr]

Crusader recovery is also superior, though you need to invest a feat in Extra Granted Maneuver as a near-obligatory feat tax to make it worthwhile (otherwise the refresh takes a tad long and you have less control over which maneuvers you can use).
I could not disagree more.

One, a random selection from a list of awesome is still awesome. The odds of needing a specific number is low. Most of them are pretty much always useful. The odds of not having it when you need it are considerably lower still — to begin with, you have 2/5 of your list, so a 60% chance of not having it. But JPM adds 3 Maneuvers Readied, so you start with 5/8 maneuvers, so only a 37.5% chance of not having it. And that's on the first round: every round after that, the odds of not having a given maneuver goes down, and quite quickly.

Two, a Jade Phoenix Mage also has spells. That means a Jade Phoenix Mage will never be without something to spend his actions on. Don't see much use for the maneuvers you have granted at the moment? Well, you chose your maneuvers readied poorly, because that should just about never happen, but no worries! You can just cast a spell.

Seriously, the randomization thing on the Crusader is so overblown — it just isn't a big deal, at all. Extra Granted Maneuver is nice, but it's really not necessary — I've stopped bothering with it on my Crusaders, especially if they're in the level 10+ range. And a Jade Phoenix Mage has was less need for it than a Crusader ever would.