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piemaester
2011-05-25, 10:55 PM
Hello fellow rp-ers!
I am building my first Pathfinder Bard! I played one once in 3.5, where grease was my best trick. It only lasted a few games. This time, I am playing in a political, urban campaign, and would like to play a bard accordingly. I would like to use the Sandman from the advanced players guide to make a spy character. Along the lines of a Beguiler from 3.5 but with more "performance" involved.
What I would like is advice on playing a bard this way, and suggestions for building a Sandman character. Thanks for the help!

Sandman Bard: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard#TOC-Sandman

Golden-Esque
2011-05-26, 01:30 PM
Hello fellow rp-ers!
I am building my first Pathfinder Bard! I played one once in 3.5, where grease was my best trick. It only lasted a few games. This time, I am playing in a political, urban campaign, and would like to play a bard accordingly. I would like to use the Sandman from the advanced players guide to make a spy character. Along the lines of a Beguiler from 3.5 but with more "performance" involved.
What I would like is advice on playing a bard this way, and suggestions for building a Sandman character. Thanks for the help!

Sandman Bard: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard#TOC-Sandman

If you want to make a Spy, then sadly, the Sandman is not your best Bard choice (though the Sandman is a very fun archetype and I built a very successful villain who was Sandman 9 / Assassin 9). The sandman functions best as a magical thief; stealing spells and even objects from enemies via the Steal line of combat maneuver feats. You can make a very potent thief who is based along the lines of a seductress; using their performances to distract onlookers while they claim their prize.

If you want a spy, your best bet is to take the Detective archetype. The Detective gives you bonuses to checks made to gather information (very important for any spy). Plus, they get trapfinding as a Rogue AND a bonus to see throw divination. If you're going to infiltrate, you better be able to disarm the enemy's defenses. The Detective gets tons of bonuses to interrogating enemies; think James Bond-type interrogation, where you trick them into revealing their secrets with your Charisma.

Both options work well, but I personally think the Detective is better suited for the job. Regardless of what you pick, you CANNOT be a spy without the Master Spy prestige class! It requires two feats (Deceitful and Iron Will) as well as a bunch of skills. The payoff is worth it; however. I've seen the class in action and while the Spy is not a great fighter, he excels at gathering information and passing skill-based obstacles.

Hope this helps!

piemaester
2011-05-26, 01:59 PM
Thank you for the input! I see where you are going with the detective, with the sense motive bonus and divination help. But I like the sandman thief aspect too. I want my character to be a thief, but with the moves of a spy. It really is a hard pick for me between the two...
However, I was of the opinion that multiclassing would not be useful, namely for hindering my spellcasting and performance. But your so definate about it, I am having to rethink myself. Master Spy does look cool... Could you tell me what "action" you saw with this class? This is one of thoes classes I thought more appropriate for NPC's.

Golden-Esque
2011-05-26, 03:53 PM
Thank you for the input! I see where you are going with the detective, with the sense motive bonus and divination help. But I like the sandman thief aspect too. I want my character to be a thief, but with the moves of a spy. It really is a hard pick for me between the two...
However, I was of the opinion that multiclassing would not be useful, namely for hindering my spellcasting and performance. But your so definate about it, I am having to rethink myself. Master Spy does look cool... Could you tell me what "action" you saw with this class? This is one of thoes classes I thought more appropriate for NPC's.

Sure!

Our party was in an abandoned temple of Shar (Forgotten Realms deity of shadows and secrets) and we had just discovered the research of a Shaman who was doing research in the area. Our Master Detective assumed the identity of the Shaman with a Disguise check (he used his research and spare supplies to put together a good disguise), then proceeded to use the Superficial Knowledge ability to inform us exactly what the Shaman was studying. It was a Purple Worm, so guess what tunnel we DIDN'T walk down?

Still in character, we encountered some guards. Since the Shaman was an important individual, with some good checks we were able to bypass the entire encounter. The next room had a trap that triggered based on your alignment. You had to be Evil when most of our party wasn't. But behold! The Master Spy was masquerading as a Neutral Evil Orc, so he walked through the trap just fine and disarmed the whole thing by himself!

The Master Spy's effectiveness is extremely dependent on your GM. If its something you want to work for, you need to talk to him to make sure that he is building encounters and dungeons with your unique abilities in mind. Master Spy, in my opinion, does not become EXTREMELY fun to watch in action until 3rd level, when they gain the Superficial Knowledge ability. And again, this is not a class that will EVER be good in combat. Our Master Spy is easily our weakest combatant; as a Rogue / Phalanx Fighter, he is almost completely dependent on Sneak Attack damage to be even mildly effective. Your Bard is going to be even less effective if you go the Detective Route (this is a point where Sandman, with its Sneak Attack damage, is stronger).

Whenever I make a multiclass character that is going to lose out on Spellcasting levels (like my before mentioned Sandman / Assassin) I always look at the spell list and ask myself if the spells I'm losing are ones I can live without. Does the character NEED that spell for your character concept to work?

I think if you want a character that is extremely skill-based, fits the role of a Spy to the tie, but trades spellcasting and overall combat effectiveness to do so, go Detective Bard / Master Spy. If you want to be a thief who is decent in combat and can back their party up with a wide assortment of spells, go full Sandman. If you want a Skillful character whose okay at combat, but sacrifices serious spellcasting power, go Master Spy / Sandman.

I may know what you want in a character, but I don't know your play style, what types of powers you value, etc., so I can't tell you how to build your character in a way you'll enjoy :P.

piemaester
2011-05-26, 04:17 PM
I don't mean for you to do my job for me. Sorry if I gave you that impression! The story was a great help! Now I see what you mean. I'll look into the spells and make that decision on Master Spy! It's not really that I need you to build my character for me, its just that I have never played a character like this before. My usual is a cat burgler style rogue. The one time I did play a Beguiler, it was still a cat burgler, but with spells instead of sneak attack. I am trying something new, and wanted to see what more expierianced players have expierianced.

I would like to play the spy that nobody truely knows who side he is on. He is always switching sides and telling lies. He can be anyone at anytime, so know one knows who he really is. Still a little bit of a cat burgler, but a much higher emphasis on Charisma.

Thanks for all your help! I really appreciate it! The most useful was letting me know these classes can be effective in games. That is what I was most worried about.