Miracle: The most powerful spell!

[Cruiser1]

Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) is the single most versatile spell in D&D 3.5! Since versatility = power (see Tier 1 class definition) Miracle is arguably the most powerful spell in the game. Any character who can cast 9th level spells is already extremely strong, but Miracle stands out even among the 9th level spells. Miracle is better than Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) in the vast majority of cases, because the latter always costs 5000 XP, even if you're only using it to duplicate a cantrip. Miracle costs 5000 XP only if you use it for something extra powerful and truly a miracle such as "protect a city from a natural disaster".

The most versatile/powerful part of Miracle is being able to duplicate any spell of any class up to 7th level (and any Cleric spell up to 8th level). You suddenly have access to the entire Sor/Wiz list, Druid list, Cleric list (if you're not already a Cleric), Bard list, Wu Jen list, all Domains, Sanctified spells, and so on!

Some spells outside your class can have interesting effects. What happens if a Sorcerer duplicates Mnemonic Enhancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm)? Do they get to prepare a few spells like a Wizard, similar to a Cleric casting Anyspell? That might be a way to meet the requirements of "must be able to prepare spells" prestige classes, assuming you still care about entry tricks like when you're high enough level to cast Miracle. :smallwink:

Metamagic: Does the "Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower" option allow you to apply metamagic feats to spells? For example, duplicating the 4th level Sorcerer only nuke Wings of Flurry is nice, but even better is duplicating a Maximized Wings of Flurry, which normally takes up a 7th level slot. Does "spell of 7th level or lower" include metamagiced spells? If not, the clause of "Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" should cover it, since a lower level spell metamagiced to a 7th level slot should clearly have the same power as a 7th level spell. Instead of casting Orb of Fire (4th level), cast Empowered (+2), Enlarged (+1), Energy Substitution (Sonic) (+0), Invisible (+0) Orb of Fire (+4) = 7th level.

Does the answer change if you do/do not have the metamagic feat(s) in question? If you can choose any spell anywhere, can you select any metamagic feat anywhere (as long as the final slot isn't higher than 7th level)? If you have metamagic reducers from feats or class features, can that allow you to duplicate metamagic spells that ordinarily take higher slots? I would think not, since the actual power of the spell would still be higher than 7th level, even if I have the ability to cast it from a 7th level or lower slot (assuming I knew the spell and metamagic(s) in question).

Spell type: Miracle is a divine spell. (And it's usually cast as a divine spell using WIS even if you cast it from an arcane casting class, such as via Rainbow Servant PrC.) However if you duplicate an arcane spell with Miracle, is the duplication result arcane, or still divine? If arcane, it might allow arcane access to Miracle to reduce MAD by having save DC's based off INT/CHA. However it's probably divine, because if a standard Cleric duplicates an arcane spell, what would the save DC be based off of other than WIS?

Spell school: Miracle is an evocation spell. (Odd, I would expect it to be Universal, like Wish.) That implies Spell Focus: Evocation will increase its save DC by one. Are duplicated spells evocation or the school of the duplicated spell? Will Spell Focus: Evocation also affect duplication of a spell from another school, such as enchantment? If I use Miracle to duplicate Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm), and I have Spell Focus: Enchantment, does the save DC increase by one?

Casting Time: Another very nice aspect of Miracle is "Casting Time: 1 standard action". This implies if you duplicate a spell with a longer casting time, it's still cast in one standard action. For example, you can duplicate Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) and Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm) in 1 round instead of 10 minutes. For an extreme example of time savings, you can duplicate casting Legend Lore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) about something you only know rumors about in 6 seconds instead of 2d6 weeks!

Material component: Miracle allows you to cast spells with up to 100 gp material components for free. For example, you can cast Wall of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm) and Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) for free, if you don't mind using a higher level spell slot to cast Miracle. Miracle also mentions no sacrifice component. Does that mean you can duplicate a spell with a sacrifice component without paying the sacrifice cost? Can you duplicate Archon only spells without having the Archon subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#archonSubtype)?

Focus component: Miracle doesn't mention requiring a focus component, or requiring the focus component when duplicating a spell. This allows you to not have to buy or keep track of focus components in most cases. A Vow of Poverty character can't ever cast Mage's Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm), since it requires focus items worth 15 gp (The VoP character can beg material components from allies, but it doesn't say anything about focus components.) However if you duplicate Mage's Magnificent Mansion with Miracle, the ascetic can cast it without problem.

Some focus components are hard to come by. For example, Plane Shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) requires a forked metal rod keyed to the plane you with to teleport to, where finding the appropriate rod is a way for DM's to control where PC's can shift to. However once you have Miracle you can Plane Shift (or Greater Plane Shift if you prefer) anywhere, including arbitrary Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) created demiplanes.

Some focus components are mentioned in the functioning of the spell. For example, Contingency says, "You must carry the focus for the contingency to work." That suggests you need a focus, even if you don't need it to actually cast the spell. What happens if you duplicate Secret Chest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretChest.htm) with Miracle, without a focus? Secret Chest has the target of the spell be the one of the focus items, and similar to Contingency you apparently need the small replica of the chest even if you don't need that focus to cast the spell, since the spell description explicitly says you need the small replica.

Spell Resistance: Miracle is "Spell Resistance: Yes". If I duplicate a spell like Orb of Acid that normally skips spell resistance, will spell resistance apply? (See Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm) for an example of a spell that always has spell resistance apply, even if the spell simulated doesn't have it.) I think Miracle inherits spell resistance from the duplicated spell, since it says, "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell." (Text trumps table.) Therefore I think Miracle should more accurately say "Spell Resistance: See text".

[NNescio]

Shapechange is probably stronger, even with the cheese tuned down. Time Stop can be better, depending on spell loadout. Gate can achieve effects beyond Miracle that are probably worth its XP cost.

[GoatBoy]

The wording of miracle actually makes things a little trickier. You don't cast a miracle, you request one. You don't say "use miracle to cast spell X," rather, the most you can do is point at something and say "please make that thing(s) go away."

I'm sure that the spell is never actually used that way, but in the early days of 3e, this kind of approach was considered "mitigation."

But, yeah. Miracle as you describe it pretty much covers every conceivable spell effect. Just keep in mind that, according to the rules, you don't directly control the result of the casting.

How does everyone here use miracle?

[NNescio]

The wording of miracle actually makes things a little trickier. You don't cast a miracle, you request one. You don't say "use miracle to cast spell X," rather, the most you can do is point at something and say "please make that thing(s) go away."

I'm sure that the spell is never actually used that way, but in the early days of 3e, this kind of approach was considered "mitigation."

But, yeah. Miracle as you describe it pretty much covers every conceivable spell effect. Just keep in mind that, according to the rules, you don't directly control the result of the casting.

How does everyone here use miracle?

Bead of Karma-powered shenanigans.

On a more serious note, my DM allows us to directly name a spell in our requests, 'though it's not a guaranteed affair. And heaven help you if you happen to be a cleric of an evil trickster god.

The "In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused." clause does impose heavy limitations, after all.

[Johel]

The wording of miracle actually makes things a little trickier. You don't cast a miracle, you request one. You don't say "use miracle to cast spell X," rather, the most you can do is point at something and say "please make that thing(s) go away."

I'm sure that the spell is never actually used that way, but in the early days of 3e, this kind of approach was considered "mitigation."

But, yeah. Miracle as you describe it pretty much covers every conceivable spell effect. Just keep in mind that, according to the rules, you don't directly control the result of the casting.

How does everyone here use miracle?

Never used it in play but the way you describe it sounds indeed more fun and in character.

[Feytalist]

The downside of course being that it costs a 9th level spell slot, and there are precious few of those to go around, even with scrolls/pearls of power/etc.

But sometimes, you do need that wildly unexpected outcome. Cue miracle.

[adecoy95]

Shapechange is probably stronger, even with the cheese tuned down. Time Stop can be better, depending on spell loadout. Gate can achieve effects beyond Miracle that are probably worth its XP cost.

i agree here, the gold cost is nothing at 17th level, and using shapechange to turn into a chronotyrm lets you cast.... two miracles a turn :smallbiggrin:

i would even go as far as to say gate is stronger as well, especially if the epic level handbook is open.

[Ashram]

The idea of Miracle being better than Wish is because while Wish is really powerful, it's just the arcane spellcaster bending the world to his wishes based on his own power of magic, and occasionally reality tells him to f*** off.

Miracle is you asking your deity for a favor. Sure, the deity can just say "No" if it doesn't go along with what that deity does, why would a cleric ask for something wildly out of sync with their god's strictures?

[Asheram]

The idea of Miracle being better than Wish is because while Wish is really powerful, it's just the arcane spellcaster bending the world to his wishes based on his own power of magic, and occasionally reality tells him to f*** off.

Miracle is you asking your deity for a favor. Sure, the deity can just say "No" if it doesn't go along with what that deity does, why would a cleric ask for something wildly out of sync with their god's strictures?

I imagine that an abuse of Miracle would be something like your child visiting you in the middle of work and keep pestering you for icecream.

[Feytalist]

I imagine that an abuse of Miracle would be something like your child visiting you in the middle of work and keep pestering you for icecream.

Lol'd.

I like the idea of the deity coming down from the heavens himself and going; "Right. You, you and you, frell off."

"We're having tea."

[Luckmann]

I like the idea of the deity coming down from the heavens himself and going; "Right. You, you and you, frell off."Well isn't that the usual response to icecream-requests?

*you lose all divine spellcasting capabilities for 2d6 weeks*.

[Feytalist]

Yeah, but more the mind-numbing horror of pissing off your own actual patron.

"Oh sweet Asmodeus I'm sorry" :O

[mootoall]

Correction: Rainbow Servant casters still use thier primary casting stat when casting divine spells. Warmage: the most powerful class?

[visigani]

Warmage wouldn't be... beguiler would be... better spell selection, better secondary abilities... uses Int as primary casting stat.

[jmelesky]

If it depends on the character of the supplicated deity, it brings up the question: what should an Ur-Priest expect when casting Miracle?

[Veyr]

It depends: did the Ur-Priest steal the Miracle from some legit Cleric, and do his skills qualify him for tricking the deity? Or is the deity aware of what's going on?

There are no rules for this, and the fluff on the Ur-Priest could go either way. Basically, check with your DM first.

[ericgrau]

Other 9th level spells might be better at what they do but the versatility of miracle arguably makes it a toss-up. Barring infinite gate/wish cheese of course. I can see the OP's point. I mean I might not always take miracle first, but it's pretty high up there among options to consider. Probably higher than wish (if clerics even had wish) because I can use it every day without fear of xp loss.

[Radar]

Miracle is most likely still a divine spell, when it's imitating other spells. Keep in mind, that the save DC is of the 9th level spell - it indicates, that it's still Miracle, just the effect is identical to a different spell.


If it depends on the character of the supplicated deity, it brings up the question: what should an Ur-Priest expect when casting Miracle?
Better question: how do Miracles cast by a Shadowcraft Mage work? We just don't know. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiSJthqk4S4)

[Urpriest]

It depends: did the Ur-Priest steal the Miracle from some legit Cleric, and do his skills qualify him for tricking the deity? Or is the deity aware of what's going on?

There are no rules for this, and the fluff on the Ur-Priest could go either way. Basically, check with your DM first.

My interpretation is that the Ur-Priest gets the Miracle that some Cleric who actually deserved it was going to get, just like their spells are spells that some legit Cleric was going to get. But I am a biased source on this.:smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Never used it in play but the way you describe it sounds indeed more fun and in character.

Giving the DM further opportunity to screw you over for no good reason sounds like more fun and better characterization? :smallconfused:

[Pigkappa]

Giving the DM further opportunity to screw you over for no good reason sounds like more fun and better characterization? :smallconfused:

"For no good reason"?
The spell requires the direct intervention of a god. This is really good reason. Your god could get really angry if you go around spamming 1 Miracle/day for some minor quests.

[Telonius]

If it depends on the character of the supplicated deity, it brings up the question: what should an Ur-Priest expect when casting Miracle?

In my games, the overdeity of cheese and metagaming (Pun-Pun) would stop time for everybody but the Ur-Priest, laugh, hand him a cookie, disappear, and then have the miracle work exactly as he asked it.

[Coidzor]

"For no good reason"?
The spell requires the direct intervention of a god. This is really good reason. Your god could get really angry if you go around spamming 1 Miracle/day for some minor quests.

No, that's looking for an excuse. What kind of 17th-20th level character is being put on minor quests except by the act of the DM himself? At the end of the day this is all on the DM.

Wish and Miracle seem to be entirely designed to allow passive-aggressive DMs the opportunity to feel like they're finally justified in screwing over someone they dislike out of game or whose character annoys them from the way Wish threads go online and the way people in this thread have had their metaphorical eyes glaze over with glee at the thought of killing someone over using a 9th level spell because "it annoys the deity to pay attention to his clerics," when he has to in the first place from a whole class of other spells and indeed, granting the bloody things to clerics in the first place.

If they're not abusing it (which they shouldn't be, since it's a 9th level slot and they shouldn't generally have a whole lot of those without some other problem on the table), what's the problem, really? If they are abusing it, then the problem is letting the players abuse it in the first place and the solution is not to kill them all and end the campaign unless things have gotten really out of hand.

[Gullintanni]

I remember playing a campaign where we were playing a group of 4 level 21 characters, each with a Divine Rank 0. We were fighting an Infernal and getting the stuffing pounded out of us. I cast Miracle three times in that battle.

IMHO, there's really no basis for the DM screwing someone over on a Miracle. There's a non-fulfillment clause in cases where the requested action contravenes the nature of the patron deity, but that's really it. As long as you're using Miracle to replicate a spell of 7th level or lower, or for a cleric spell of 8th level or lower, or for the non-xp example listed in the spell's description, there's really no basis to deny a request.

For requests that require experience, Miracle = Wish. They're essentially the same spell. Except that Miracle is never dangerous...it lacks the partial fulfillment/twisted Wish clause. Non-fulfillment is about as bad as it gets. That's the RAW. If you're playing the spell any differently without warning your players, you're setting yourself up for RageQuit.

On the use of multiple Miracles...the simple solutions are either to have Miracles granted by the deity's proxies, mitigating the burden they face, or to simply fluff divine power as being concentrated in pools of Divine energy. Each prepared spell consumes a degree of that Divine energy, and Miracle is no exception. In essence, if a Cleric decides to prepare a Miracle, then it is granted when the Cleric performs her prayers, and so regardless of the number of Miracles, the deity is only pestered once per day...just like with any Cleric.

[candycorn]

On the use of multiple Miracles...the simple solutions are either to have Miracles granted by the deity's proxies, mitigating the burden they face, or to simply fluff divine power as being concentrated in pools of Divine energy. Each prepared spell consumes a degree of that Divine energy, and Miracle is no exception. In essence, if a Cleric decides to prepare a Miracle, then it is granted when the Cleric performs her prayers, and so regardless of the number of Miracles, the deity is only pestered once per day...just like with any Cleric.

This. Contact Other Plane and Divine Rules point out that Deities can know the future. In fact, provided you being a follower has something to do with its portfolio, a greater deity will know about your miracle automatically a week before you cast it.

In these cases, it's not really an extra imposition, like contact other plane is.

[ffone]

As a DM, don't screw players with Wish/Miracle unless you want all subsequent castings to be accompanied by multi-page legal contracts' worth of wording.

(I've not been on either end of this myself, but it seems likely. That or not having them cast again.)

[Analytica]

If it depends on the character of the supplicated deity, it brings up the question: what should an Ur-Priest expect when casting Miracle?

Power of Faerun has a feat allowing divine casters, who usually require approval from there deities there, to twist the dogma of their faith. It's called Heretic of the Faith. Among the effects listed, it is mentioned that a semi-godless cleric of this type would not be able to use Commune, but no mention of Miracle is made.

Add to this that Miracle can be gained as an arcane spell (through Wyrm Wizard or Recaster, by Sha'irs and through gaining domains). If it was intended not to work then, I would hope it would have been mentioned.

My interpretation is that the metaphysics of Miracle, when cast by a non-cleric, are pretty close to those of Wish.

[jmelesky]

My interpretation is that the metaphysics of Miracle, when cast by a non-cleric, are pretty close to those of Wish.

That's how i'd approach it, too, from a crunch standpoint.

The fluff is where it gets interesting, of course.

[The Glyphstone]

In non-Faerun settings, what happens when a cleric of a cause casts Miracle? Who grants it then?

[Kylarra]

In non-Faerun settings, what happens when a cleric of a cause casts Miracle? Who grants it then?Herbert.

pretty sure that's the DM from Goblins, if not that's who I meant!

:smallbiggrin:

[erikun]

In non-Faerun settings, what happens when a cleric of a cause casts Miracle? Who grants it then?
I would assume that a representative of the alignment takes the time to grant the Miracle. I would assume the Solar's ability to use Wish was originally meant to represent this - the ability to grant a "wish" independant of direct deity intervention.

[Analytica]

That's how i'd approach it, too, from a crunch standpoint.

The fluff is where it gets interesting, of course.

No, I did mean it from a fluff perspective.

Consider: The Wish spell allows you to emulate magic you do not know, and could never otherwise cast. How does it do that? Perhaps it contacts and extracts a favour from some hidden and powerful being. More interestingly, perhaps it creates a temporary pseudo-being with independent intelligence, divination-granted insights, and ability to change the world, then has that pseudo-being make the Wish real.

Miracle could work the same, forming a small and limited emanation of the deity, like the shadow of an avatar, that makes the request real. Perhaps the energy of the spell slot itself is enough (ninth level and all) to form an emanation like this. If there is an actual deity providing the spell, it will have imbued the energy with alignment and cause restrictions. Same if you are a cause cleric and draw your energy from an alignment plane, but because of the "personality" of the plane rather than the deity. For a shaman, you might do Miracles by setting a sufficiently powerful spirit to the task, the nature of which will then influence the outcome. For an arcane caster or Ur-Priest, I imagine there would be no divine imprint at all, making the spell work more or less like Wish, although slightly weaker (reflected in the fact that there are some things it cannot do, and that it has no base XP cost).

[Jack_Simth]

Metamagic: Does the "Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower" option allow you to apply metamagic feats to spells? For example, duplicating the 4th level Sorcerer only nuke Wings of Flurry is nice, but even better is duplicating a Maximized Wings of Flurry, which normally takes up a 7th level slot. Does "spell of 7th level or lower" include metamagiced spells? If not, the clause of "Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" should cover it, since a lower level spell metamagiced to a 7th level slot should clearly have the same power as a 7th level spell. Instead of casting Orb of Fire (4th level), cast Empowered (+2), Enlarged (+1), Energy Substitution (Sonic) (+0), Invisible (+0) Orb of Fire (+4) = 7th level.Oh, it gets better. What's a good 7th level Sor/Wiz spell? Ah, let's go with Delayed Blast Fireball, for now. Sor/Wiz 7. Per the Metamagic feat description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats):

As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. (emphasis added)

It's ridiculous, but because metamagic doesn't change the actual spell level, Miracle can, per RAW, successfully duplicate a Twinned Maximized Empowered Sculpted Reserves of Strength'd Energy Admixtured Extended Enlarged Widened Delayed Blast Fireball, because it's still a 7th level Sor/Wiz spell.

[BIGMamaSloth]

Jack_Simth, I got to hand it to ya. that might be the most literal rule interpretation i have seen in a long time.

[Jack_Simth]

Jack_Simth, I got to hand it to ya. that might be the most literal rule interpretation i have seen in a long time.
Heh. Yes, it's the price the game pays for making Heighten Spell a separate feat. If a metamagic'd spell actually counted as it's effective level for all purposes except save DC, this wouldn't work, and there are quite a few things that would work out much more sensibly.

But that's what ridiculousness is for, isn't it? Pointing out exploits in the rule set?

[Andre]

Huh uh, it's sure worth it to waste use every single feat of yours on metamagic feats just to be able to call such a miracle when you reach the appropriate level... and then watch the DM raging and eating your character sheet before committing suicide. :smallcool:

[Veyr]

Huh uh, it's sure worth it to waste use every single feat of yours on metamagic feats just to be able to call such a miracle when you reach the appropriate level... and then watch the DM raging and eating your character sheet before committing suicide. :smallcool:
You wouldn't need the feats any more than you would need to know the spell. You aren't casting the spell, your deity is.

[Pigkappa]

No, that's looking for an excuse. What kind of 17th-20th level character is being put on minor quests except by the act of the DM himself? At the end of the day this is all on the DM.

Wish and Miracle seem to be entirely designed to allow passive-aggressive DMs the opportunity to feel like they're finally justified in screwing over someone they dislike out of game or whose character annoys them from the way Wish threads go online and the way people in this thread have had their metaphorical eyes glaze over with glee at the thought of killing someone over using a 9th level spell because "it annoys the deity to pay attention to his clerics," when he has to in the first place from a whole class of other spells and indeed, granting the bloody things to clerics in the first place.

If they're not abusing it (which they shouldn't be, since it's a 9th level slot and they shouldn't generally have a whole lot of those without some other problem on the table), what's the problem, really? If they are abusing it, then the problem is letting the players abuse it in the first place and the solution is not to kill them all and end the campaign unless things have gotten really out of hand.


In many fantasy stories some "miracles" happen. So it is really nice (it's even necessary I think) to have a spell or ability that is called "Miracle" and that's able to produce many of the powerful and various effects miracles have in fantasy and religious myths.

In all of these myths, miracles are considered a unique event and they involve some extraordinary divine help. Since the spell text specifically says that your deity needs to "intercede", I would say that this spell should be dealt with carefully, as any cleric would think twice before directly involving its deity in anything.

I would consider using it for minor issues (for example, as a Teleport when your Wizard forgot to prepare it and you could probably wait one day without any major problem) a very serious insult to your deity.


But then, I know that for some people here the fluff and crunch are totally different. Who cares if it's called "Miracle", it was much better if it was called "Spell AB35" and those annoying fluffy lines were replaced by some other possible effects.

[Eldariel]

So yes, Miracle is a top tier level 9 spell, and the best Cleric gets by nature, more or less. Up there, below Shapechange (1500gp as one-time investment is nothing; it's just a Focus). Over Wish because of the cost efficiency (no XP costs), approximately similar to Gate (less powerful, cheaper). Time Stop plays a slightly different game so the comparison is harder because it functions on the action count metric rather than the action power scale.

Being able to access almost any spell on any list is of course the big selling point. Some of Clericzilla's sickest buffs come from Miracle if not abusing extra Domains too hard.


Personally, I always viewed the difference between Wish and Miracle as bending reality over and spanking it vs. asking daddy to do that instead.

I always found that when Cleric asks for a Miracle, it's different from God making a Miracle happen. While the power is similar, Cleric asking for a Miracle is basically something he still makes happen, even if the power (like all of Cleric's power) comes from elsewhere while most of the miracles in fantasy and such would be independent miracles made happen by a deity without a Cleric calling for it.

[Andre]

Er, no? I figured it was the deity or whatever other cosmic power you worship that grants you either the request or the spell. Show some decency and buy the feats at least, why would you request to duplicate any spell that is NOT metamagic'd otherwise? *chuckle*

[godlykoala]

In non-Faerun settings, what happens when a cleric of a cause casts Miracle? Who grants it then?

I think that "the power of your cause shines forth, erupting from the symbol you clench in your blood-soaked fist. Rank upon rank of your enemies vanishing into mist before your untamed holy-might"

some sort of fluff thing that sounds neat. you know, 1/3 of a DM's job.

In all honesty, I don't see a deity being bothered by the request for a miracle. The path of the cleric is not the cleric growing in power, it's the character proving his worth to his god so his god will intercede more on his behalf.

you have to remember that gods are supposed to be metaphysical beings made up of a combination of divine power, emotion, and whatever their personal moral code happens to be. The reason there's not a 10,000 cleric cue-line at the rising of the sun every day (or what have you) is because the god can process an infinite amount of information simultaneously.

A god only has a single physical body when it coalesces into a single form to do battle with another god or a challenging mortal/group. The reason the gods don't just walk into the world with magic flying every-which-way is because they are more vulnerable in a physical body.

I like to think of the gods as a spread, intangible, unhurt-able presence that are only able to affect the world by granting spells. A god gains a true body when it manifests itself. Though the god could avoid confrontation with "uppity" mortals by simply staying intangible, the best means of summoning a god you wish to confront is by executing some of its high-level followers.

This provides a reason why gods don't hate their clerics for bothering them, while at the same time allowing players or enemies to interact with gods. What would be fun about challenging a god, only to have it just stay intangible?

[Eldariel]

Eh. Clerics' power comes from their faith, not necessarily their patron. For example, it's never revealed if Eberron actually has any deities but Eberron Clerics still get powers. And Clerics of a cause can cast spells just as well as Clerics of deities. Clerics are more than conduits of power.

[Pigkappa]

That's usually true, but miracle is an exception.

"You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede."

[Gullintanni]

That's usually true, but miracle is an exception.

"You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede."

I envision it this way.

A cleric's faith manifests divine energy. The source of that energy can be deities, or in the case of cleric-by-cause, it can be drawn from the millions across the planet who also share faith in that cause. Regardless, it is a cleric's faith that drives that energy. When a cleric prepares spells, she is literally shaping that energy through prayer, and discharges it when the spells are cast. When a cleric prepares a Miracle they specifically refrain from shaping that energy; they simply pray for intervention. When they cast Miracle they are, at that point shaping the vast pool of otherwise untapped divine energy. At which point their desparation, their hopes, their ambitions shape the energy on the spot; manifesting the form of the cleric's desire.

Of course in the case of deities, this divine energy can not be shaped into something that opposes the deity's alignment...but still, that's how I see it working.

[Veyr]

Eh. Clerics' power comes from their faith, not necessarily their patron. For example, it's never revealed if Eberron actually has any deities but Eberron Clerics still get powers. And Clerics of a cause can cast spells just as well as Clerics of deities. Clerics are more than conduits of power.
That's true in Eberron, but I don't think it's true in the default cosmology, and I know it's not true in Faerun.

[Eldariel]

That's true in Eberron, but I don't think it's true in the default cosmology, and I know it's not true in Faerun.

It's true in Greyhawk (the "default cosmology") since that's what the PHB is based on and said rules are listed in PHB. FR is the lone official exception where you need a patron to be a Cleric.

[evirus]

If it's the god casting the requested replica spell and not the cleric, wouldn't it use that God's stats (damage, spell pen, etc)?

That sounds awfuly broken.

[Veyr]

It's true in Greyhawk (the "default cosmology") since that's what the PHB is based on and said rules are listed in PHB. FR is the lone official exception where you need a patron to be a Cleric.
You can cast as a Cleric of a cause, but it does not follow that their power "comes from their faith, not [...] their patron" — a Cleric of a cause, sure, but a Cleric of a deity is implied to be literally channeling his deity's power.

Of course, I missed the word "necessarily" in your statement, which makes it a point I can't really argue.


If it's the god casting the requested replica spell and not the cleric, wouldn't it use that God's stats (damage, spell pen, etc)?

That sounds awfuly broken.
All Divine spells are scaled to your own abilities to handle them; Miracle is no exception, I suppose. Or perhaps your own abilities are the metric by which your god judges your worthiness for more powerful effects.

[Cruiser1]

Correction: Rainbow Servant casters still use thier primary casting stat when casting divine spells.
Is this true? The Rainbow Servant 10th level Cleric Spell Access feature specifically says that spells that aren't on the SOR/WIZ/BRD lists are cast as divine spells. Why would that be mentioned if there weren't a mechanical difference? The relevant ability for Divine spells is Wisdom, which implies WIS determines save DC and such: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#preparingDivineSpells.

Compare this ability to the Arcane Disciple feat which also gives an arcane caster access to divine spells. There the spells cast are also divine, where it explicitly says save DC's are based on WIS and you need WIS of 10+spell level to be able to prepare or cast it. Even if Rainbow Servant says it progresses arcane casting, shouldn't the "specific trumps general" rule of the 10th level ability trump it?

[Coidzor]

Is this true? The Rainbow Servant 10th level Cleric Spell Access feature specifically says that spells that aren't on the SOR/WIZ/BRD lists are cast as divine spells. Why would that be mentioned if there weren't a mechanical difference?

There is already a mechanical difference. ASF. :smalltongue:

[Divide by Zero]

And it also matters for purposes of any feat/effect/whatever that distinguishes between arcane and divine.

[Devmaar]

The relevant ability for Divine spells is Wisdom

Tell that to the Archivist

[Eldariel]

Tell that to the Archivist

Or Favored Soul.

[HalfDragonCube]

Or Favored Soul.

Or Shugenja.

[Cruiser1]

Or Shugenja.
Sure. Certain base classes can cast divine spells, and those classes specifically say the relevant ability for their casting is something other than WIS. But what is the default if the base class (or Prestige Class) doesn't say anything? Does it use the default casting stat of your class, e.g. if my Wizard enters Rainbow Servant, is its divine spells still based on INT since that's the default for Wizard? Or does it use the default for divine spells, which is WIS unless stated otherwise:
Preparing Divine Spells
Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. The relevant ability for divine spells is Wisdom. To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell’s level. Likewise, bonus spells are based on Wisdom.I notice the above only mentions preparing spells and not casting (unlike feats like Arcane Disciple that mention both aspects of spell casting being based on WIS). That means a case can be made that even if a Wizard Rainbow Servant needs WIS 19 to cast 9th level Cleric spells, a Sorcerer Rainbow Servant can cast Miracle and such with WIS 8. :smalltongue:

[Yuki Akuma]

The downside of course being that it costs a 9th level spell slot, and there are precious few of those to go around, even with scrolls/pearls of power/etc.

But sometimes, you do need that wildly unexpected outcome. Cue miracle.

Unless you're a Killer Gnome in which case you do it with your cantrips.

[Munchkin-Masher]

And this is why a cheesed Shadowcraft mage is the best cheese ever.

Duplicate Miracle with level heightened silent image all day, erry day.

[Coidzor]

But what is the default if the base class (or Prestige Class) doesn't say anything? Does it use the default casting stat of your class

If the base class doesn't specify its casting stat, it's unplayable due to the fact that the class writeup is incomplete and lacking important information. :smalltongue: Same with any PrC.

There is no default, the class write-up has to specify the casting stat if it grants casting. If it progresses casting it doesn't need to say anything because you're still casting off of the casting stat of whatever class gave you spellcasting in the first place.

[Infernalbargain]

In non-Faerun settings, what happens when a cleric of a cause casts Miracle? Who grants it then?

Joe Peschi.

[The Glyphstone]

Joe Peschi.

I was gonna go with Morgan Freeman, but that works too.

[Undercroft]

Ur Priest + Miracle = priest gets exactly what he wants regardless due to stealing the power?

[Jack_Simth]

Ur Priest + Miracle = priest gets exactly what he wants regardless due to stealing the power?
Alternately, Ur-Priest + Miracle = Ur-Priest gets smote by a spell of choosing of the deity he stole it from, as Miracle is about drawing the direct attention of a deity to do something for you, and all deities strongly dislike Ur-Priests.

Depends on the DM. When you've got a DM that thinks the Ur-Priest is already on the high side of the power spectrum, well... little flavorful things like that make sense.

[Coidzor]

Depends on the DM. When you've got a DM that thinks the Ur-Priest is already on the high side of the power spectrum, well... little flavorful things like that make sense.

And draw accusations. Especially if they asked you about it beforehand and you withheld the information.

If one doesn't like Ur-Priests that much, one shouldn't allow them in game, rather than making traps within traps within traps. :smallyuk:

[HalfDragonCube]

And draw accusations. Especially if they asked you about it beforehand and you withheld the information.

If one doesn't like Ur-Priests that much, one shouldn't allow them in game, rather than making traps within traps within traps. :smallyuk:

*Makes will save against putting up an ackbar pic.*

[Jack_Simth]

And draw accusations. Especially if they asked you about it beforehand and you withheld the information.

If one doesn't like Ur-Priests that much, one shouldn't allow them in game, rather than making traps within traps within traps. :smallyuk:
Possibly a silly question: When was the last time you specifically asked about that sort of thing before a game started?

[Coidzor]

Possibly a silly question: When was the last time you specifically asked about that sort of thing before a game started?

Most recently it was in discussing with the DM how a spell worked due to the spell description being vague and him supporting an interpretation that he directly contradicted later. So maybe I'm just a bit sensitive due to how recently I've been messed with regarding this sort of thing.

[Cipher Stars]

There even more powerful in the games I play locally, A Wish spell pretty much does everything.
You can wish:

"I wish I lived my life differently" The remake your character as a fighter or something.
or "I wish I was a nymph"
or "I wish I was born a girl!" ect things like that.
Its the same for Miracle and Reality Revision or something.

(note: I do not share this idea when talking about Wish in The Maid)

[Yuki Akuma]

Clerics who don't worship a god can cast Miracle. Where does the power come from in that case?

Making an Ur-Priest blow up just because he cast Miracle is pretty adversarial DMing. Don't do that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bead of Karma-powered shenanigans.

I thought that involved Holy Word/Dictum/Blasphemy/Word of Chaos...