PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 Base Class-The Knife Fighter



crazydude369
2011-05-26, 03:43 AM
So I had this crazy idea for a face to face melee combatant that would only stick to the smaller weapons. This is what I came up with:



The Knife Fighter



Characteristics: While many legendary heroes are remembered for slaying fearsome beasts with their longswords and greataxes, fewer are those known for bringing down their enemies with nothing but a few well placed stabs and slices from a blade no longer than a few inches. It is this offbeat path that the knife fighter walks, using deadly precision and tact to defeat his (often larger) foes. While some sneakier types make use of smaller weapons while clinging to the shadows, knife fighters are capable of taking on opponents face to face, bringing them down with nothing more than superior skill.

Abilities: Dexterity affects both a knife fighter's accuracy and damage in melee, and helps improve his AC, as he's restricted to light armor. Constitution will help increase a knife fighter's hit points, something he'll need to stay in the front line of combat. Intelligence increases the save DC of his piercing strike ability.

Starting Age: As a fighter.
Starting Wealth: 4d4 X 10.

Hit Die: d8

The Knife Fighter

Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Weapon Finesse, Dexterous Fighter, Piercing Strike 1/encounter for 1d4/round

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Point Blank Shot

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Piercing Strike 2/encounter for 2d4/round

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Evasion, Combat Maneuvers

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Parrying Bonus, Improved Range 10ft.

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|Piercing Strike 3/encounter for 3d4/round

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|Deflect Arrows, Everything Bleeds (25%)

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|Improved Critical for 1st weapon, Armor Cutter 1

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|Piercing Strike 4/encounter for 4d4/round, Enhanced Combat Maneuvers

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|Improved Evasion, Improved Dexterous Fighter, Improved Range 20ft.

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|Parrying Expert

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|Piercing Strike 5/encounter for 5d4/round, Improved Critical for 2nd weapon

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|Defensive Roll, Armor Cutter 2, Everything Bleeds (50%)

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|Snatch Arrows, Expert Combat Maneuvers

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|Piercing Strike 6/encounter for 6d4/round, Improved Range 30ft.

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|Double Improved Critical for 1st weapon

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Armor Cutter 3

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Piercing Strike 7/encounter for 7d4/round

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Everything Bleeds (75%)

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Double Improved Critical for 2nd weapon, Legendary Combat Maneuvers, Improved Range 40ft.



The knife fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Preform (Cha), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points Per Level: 6 + Int modifier (X 4 at 1st level).

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A knife fighter is proficient with the dagger, punching dagger, sickle, dart, throwing axe, kukri, short sword, kama, siangham, and sai. Knife fighters are proficient with light armor, but no shields. A knife fighter must be wielding one of these weapons in order to preform any class feature that involves attacking, unless otherwise noted. He also loses access to any class feature while wearing more than light armor or using a shield.

Weapon Finesse: A knife fighter gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Dexterous Fighter(Ex): When wielding a knife fighter weapon in his main hand, a knife fighter adds his Dex modifier to his damage rolls. When wielding a knife fighter weapon in his off hand, he adds ½ of his Dex modifier to his damage rolls. This is in place of the normal Str modifier added to melee damage; a knife fighter does not add both his Str and Dex to his damage rolls. A knife fighter may choose to use his Str modifier instead (if he happens to have a higher Str than Dex, for instance). At tenth level, a knife fighter adds his Dex modifier plus ½ to damage rolls for knife fighter weapons in his main hand, and his entire Dex modifier to his off hand.

Piercing Strike (Ex): A knife fighter possesses the ability to strike his foes in a way that wounds them over time. Before making a melee attack with a knife fighter weapon, he may declare that it is a piercing strike. If the attack is successful, the struck target must make a fortitude save with a DC of 10 + ½ the knife fighter’s level + the knife fighter’s Int modifier. If failed, he will take additional damage each round based on the knife fighter’s level. The damaged target may continue to make fortitude saves each round until he succeeds, with the DC decreasing by 1 each round. This bleeding damage may also be stopped if the target receives any magical healing or someone preforms a heal check (of the same DC) on the target; doing so is a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Any creature immune to critical hits is also immune to piercing strikes. A piercing strike may be made at a range of up to 30 feet. The knife fighter may initially use this ability once per encounter for an additional 1d4 points of damage done per round, and it increases in uses per encounter and d4s done by 1 at 3rd level, and at every 3 levels thereafter. If he is able to use this ability more than once per day, he may use it more than once on the same target with the effects stacking.

Point Blank Shot: At second level, a knife fighter gains the benefit of the Point Blank Shot feat when using a thrown knife fighter weapon.

Evasion (Ex): At fourth level and higher, a knife fighter can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. A helpless knife fighter does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Combat Maneuvers (Ex): At fourth level, a knife fighter selects one of three combat maneuvers to specialize in: tripping, disarming, or feinting.
If he selects tripping, he gains the Improved Trip feat, even if he lacks the normal prerequisites. In addition, he may use his Dex modifier on trip attempts instead of his Str modifier.
If he selects disarming, he gains the Improved Disarm feat, even if he lacks the normal prerequisites. In addition, he takes no penalty for disarming with a light weapon (including unarmed strikes).
If he selects feinting, he gains the Improved Feint feat, even if he lacks the normal prerequisites. In addition, he may now use his Dex modifier on the Bluff check required to feint instead of his Cha modifier.

Parrying Bonus (Ex): At fifth level, a knife fighter gains the ability to deflect incoming blows. While wielding a knife fighter weapon in his main hand, he may add half of his Dex modifier to his AC as a shield bonus.

Improved Range (Ex): At fifth level, a knife fighter’s range increments for all thrown knife fighter weapons increase by 10 feet. This bonus continues to increase by an additional 10 feet every 5 levels thereafter.

Deflect Arrows:At seventh level, a knife fighter gains the benefit of the Deflect Arrows feat while wielding a knife fighter weapon in his main hand, even if he lacks the normal prerequisites for this feat.

Everything Bleeds (Ex): A walking corpse has no beating heart, and a moving pile of slime has no veins, but every creature has its weak points. At seventh level, a knife fighter learns how to strike these points on even the most outlandish creatures. Against any opponent normally immune to critical hits, the knife fighter now has a 25% chance of still scoring a crit. This also allows the use of any other abilities normally unusable on creatures immune to critical hits, such as the knife fighter's piercing strike or a rogue's sneak attack (if they've multiclassed), using the same chance. This increases to a 50% chance at thirteenth level, and a 75% chance at nineteenth level. Any armor that has a chance to negate critical hits by a percentage lowers this ability by that percentage. So armor that has a 25% chance to negate crits would cause a nineteenth level knife fighter to have a 50% chance to score one, for example.

Armor Cutter (Ex): At eighth level, a knife fighter becomes skilled enough with his weapons to strike right through the chinks in his enemy’s armor; he may now ignore one point of an enemy’s armor bonus to AC when making attack rolls against them. This improves to two points at thirteenth level, and finally to three points at seventeenth level.

Improved Critical: At eighth level, a knife fighter gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat for any one knife fighter weapon of his choosing. At twelfth level, he gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat for a second knife fighter weapon of his choosing. At sixteenth level, the critical range for his first selected weapon doubles once more. At twentieth level, the critical range for his second selected weapon also doubles once more.

Enhanced Combat Maneuvers (Ex): At ninth level, a knife fighter’s selected maneuvering capabilities improve further.
If he selected tripping, he may now attempt ranged trips. To do this, the knife fighter makes a ranged touch attack with any thrown knife fighter weapon. If the attack is successful, it deals 1 damage and trips the target. The target cannot automatically attempt to trip the knife fighter on a failed attempt.
If he selected disarming, he may now attempt ranged disarms. This works just like a normal disarm attempt, except that the knife fighter makes a ranged attack with any thrown knife fighter weapon, and the target cannot automatically attempt to disarm the knife fighter on a failed attempt.
If he selected feinting, he may now feint against creatures at a range. This works like a normal feint, except that the knife fighter takes a -2 penalty to his Bluff check for each 10 feet of distance between him and his target, and may not feint at a range greater than 50 feet. If successful, the knife fighter can apply the benefits of the feint to his next attack with a thrown weapon.

Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the knife fighter still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless knife fighter does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Parrying Expert (Ex): At eleventh level, a knife fighter gains the ability to entirely negate certain hits in melee. If an enemy makes a melee attack against a knife fighter, before he knows the result of the roll, a knife fighter may choose to forgo his attack of opportunity for that round in order to make an opposed attack roll against the enemy. If the knife fighter’s result is equal to or higher than the enemy’s result, the hit is negated. If a knife fighter has multiple attacks of opportunity, such as from the Combat Reflexes feat, he may use this ability multiple times as well.

Defensive Roll (Ex): At thirteenth level, the knife fighter can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than he otherwise would. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the knife fighter can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the knife fighter must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll—if he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the knife fighter's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

Snatch Arrows: At fourteenth level, a knife fighter gains the benefit of the Snatch Arrows feat as long as he has one free hand, even if he lacks the normal prerequisites for this feat.

Expert Combat Maneuvers (Ex): At fourteenth level, a knife fighter becomes even more skilled with his selected maneuvering.
If he selected tripping, then all successful trips (including ranged trips) made by the knife fighter now also stun the target for one round.
If he selected disarming, then the knife fighter can now attack other enemies with disarmed weapons. Upon preforming a successful disarm on an enemy; he may immediately use the disarmed weapon as a thrown weapon to make a ranged attack against another enemy within range as a free action. If the disarmed weapon cannot normally be thrown, the knife fighter suffers the normal – 4 penalty, and he may only do this with a light,one-handed, or thrown weapon.
If he selected feinting, the knife fighter no longer takes any penalty for feinting against nonhumanoids or creatures of animal intelligence.

Legendary Combat Maneuvers (Ex): At twentieth level, a knife fighter becomes able to preform awe-inspiring stunts on the battlefield.
If he selected tripping, he may now preform the Long Sweep maneuver. Upon a successful melee trip attempt, the knife fighter may continue making trip attempts on all adjacent enemies; up to 2 + the knife fighter's Int modifier extra trips per attack, or until he fails. These extra trips are made with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the initial attack. All enemies tripped in this fashion are stunned for one round, and the knife fighter receives the free attack from the Improved Trip feat on all tripped enemies.
If he selected disarming, he may now preform the Joint Stab manuever. Every attack he preforms that hits is now also an automatic disarm. The target first takes damage, than makes the opposed roll for the disarm. If the disarm is successful, the target makes an immediate fortitude save with a DC equal to that of the knife fighter's piercing strike. If they fail, they are unable to hold a weapon or manipulate an item in the targeted hand. This includes any magic items that require manipulation to use. This makes it impossible to use a two-handed melee weapon; a ranged weapon requiring two hands (such as a bow) may be used at a -4 penalty. Any spell cast that requires somatic components has a 50% chance to fail if one hand has been affected this way, or a 75% chance if both hands have been. This affect lasts for the duration of the encounter.
If he selected feinting, he may now preform the Throat Slit maneuver. If a knife fighter preforms a successful feint against an enemy after studying them being engaged in melee for a number of rounds equal to 5 – the knife fighter’s Int modifier (minimum of 1 round), his next successful melee attack with a knife fighter weapon on that enemy is an automatic Coup De Grace. The enemy being studied can be engaged in melee with anyone, but must be within 30 feet of the knife fighter and able to be clearly observed. As long as his attention stays on that enemy, he may continue to use this ability each round, however every new Throat Slit requires its own successful feint. If he attacks any other enemy, or his focus is lost in any other way, the rounds of study are required again before using this ability.

Dryad
2011-05-26, 04:45 AM
I like the idea, but I'm not entirely sure on what image you have with this class. Is it a sleek fighter, like a dueller or swashbuckler, or is it a street-thug with dirty fighting tricks?
It couldn't be the thug because it lacks the hit die, the fortitude save and the dirty tricks. But it could also not be the sleek type, because it depends so much on strength. It's also not the Ghurka type, because, again, it lacks the hit die and fortitude save. It's not an army commando because, apart from the obvious hit die and fort save, it also lacks the stealthiness.

So.. I can't really see what this class should do, other than... Well; stab people.

Another thing I noticed is the save in Pierce: 10+full lvl+int mod. Normally, a save DC would only be 10+(1/2 lvl)+ability mod. This goes for spells, special attacks like Stunning Fist and.. Well; everything else. So your save DC is extremely high for a class that isn't a PrC. (PrCs could get away with full class levels on the DC because they normally have about 10 levels, instead of 20.)

So.. What we have left is a person who is very good at stabbing people. If I were you, I'd try to build in some more versatility, maybe some more flair, or you could convert a lot of the class features to feats instead, and roll with a fighter who took those feats as bonus feats. I really do like the idea of giving some use to light weapons; nobody actually uses them, otherwise, save rogues that is, so kudos for that!
But as it is, this class is less than impressive on the power department. Apart from that, the class is also quite MAD.
You need a very high strength score to make this work, but you also need a high dex to get the two-weapon fighting feats (which this class needs; it is less than useless without those feats), a very high con to make up for the d6 HD (this is not a stealthy fighter; this one's a front-liner all out!), and a (very?) high int score to make use of the class skill list as well as up the save DC of Pierce.

A suggestion to improving it is reworking your piercing attack to:
x/day: Declare a piercing attack before making the attack roll. If your attack hits, the target takes X bleeding damage each turn thereafter. This damage can only be stopped if the target receives magical healing, or someone performs a DC 15 Heal check on the target (full round action, provokes).
Another suggestion is to grant the class at least 4+int mod skill points per level, maybe even going as far as 6, to equal the ranger and bard, and expanding on the class skill list. Raise the HD to d8 to put it in line with the Cleric and Monk, and you're already looking at a more powerful class.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-05-26, 04:56 AM
My fix is actually something akin to Dryad's. I would make it DEX-based, so that it is distinguishable from the existing fighter classes, give it Weapon Finesse as an entry-level bonus feat, and switch many of the existing bonuses from STR to DEX (for instance, the AC bonus the knives give could be treated as a Shield bonus to AC). You could have the main-hand knife give a full DEX bonus to damage rolls, and the off-hand half the DEX bonus to damage rolls (or just DEX and a half to main/full DEX to off, the equivalent of which you have in STR, but I think making this class rely on one less attribute means the bonuses to the rest are going to be greater).

That way, the Knife-Fighter becomes something that the Rogue and the Swashbuckler failed to be: DEX-based fighters.

crazydude369
2011-05-27, 12:14 AM
Thanks a lot for the feedback guys. I upped the hit die to d8, fixed the piercing strike wonkiness, added Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, and tweaked various other things to make it WAY more Dex based. I think it looks a bit better now, anything else?

Wyntonian
2011-05-27, 09:01 AM
Lessee.... This looks pretty interesting, but I have a couple of suggestions. One, is that it's pretty much a one-trick pony. Yeah, it's good at what it does, but all it really does is stab people. Maybe you could give it some stealth-based abilities, or something that makes it more than a fighter with pre-selected feats. I like the concept, but it could use some playtesting.

GodGoblin
2011-05-27, 09:18 AM
In my opinion you should not add stealth based abilities, its a knife fighter not a rogue who uses knives! We have one of those, its called the Rogue! :smalltongue:

Also I think you need a decent capstone ability, some base classes make you a lich or let you teleport when someone says your name (Magical classes but you should still throw on something cool and flavourful in there.)

Edit- I do agree that it is a one trick pony however, I just dont think stealth is the way to go. Just because you use daggers doesnt mean you have to sneak around. Maybe you could add in some movement based abilities? Letting you fient and tumbled around in combat but also giving you some out of combat movement options?

Hyudra
2011-05-27, 09:40 AM
It feels very, very low powered. Tier 5 low powered, my gut says. It has the same issues as a rogue in that there's a wide swathe of enemies that are immune to your class schtick, and that only gets worse as you climb in level. Add the fact that most combats will be over before your piercing strike does anything sufficient, and that your piercing strike has very few uses a day, and you're essentially a fighter with a less than optimal build (but more feats in general).

Going off on a tangent here - if you want to deal damage over time, it has to be a lot better than doing damage all at once. This generally boils down to DPS vs. 'Burst', as it is termed in many video games. You see it in TF2 (Rocket Launcher > Flamethrower), in MMOs (Stacking critical hit for terminal damage before the enemy can react) and various other games (league of legends, tower defense, fighting games). This is just as much the case in D&D where a combat can potentially be over - or at least decided - in the first round, from level one to level 20.

I like the concept of piercing strike. I do think you do the class a major disservice by having it so limited in uses and so low in damage. Compare your Knife Fighter with an equivalent level rogue, and even burning all of your Piercing Strikes in a single combat, you're not going to match up to what the Rogue pulls off with Sneak Attack.

Violet Octopus
2011-05-27, 10:48 AM
Some ideas:

* Excellence at throwing knives, such as the ability to pin people at range, better range, etc. Perhaps an ability to transfer the magic enhancement between two identical knives within a certain range, so you don't have to spend huge amounts of wealth on a set of individually enchanted knives. I recognise you probably want to keep this a non-supernatural class, but such an ability is subtle enough that it wouldn't turn the knife fighter into a mystical blade warrior.

* Some way to make melee touch attacks, i.e. slipping a knife through someone's armor. Maybe at higher levels they could be good enough to cut armor/shield straps, removing it from the wearer until they take a minute to repair it outside of combat.

* Bonuses to disarm - sure, a sai gets a +4 bonus, but it also gets a -4 penalty for being a light weapon. A knife fighter should be able to make disarm attempts that are as effective or more so than a two-handed weapon. Perhaps, to make disarming more exciting (and as good as tripping), they can learn to knock a weapon out of someone's hand, straight into another enemy. i.e. upon a successful disarm, as a free action, make a ranged attack using the disarmed weapon as a thrown weapon.

Apollishar
2011-05-27, 10:55 AM
You could always throw in benefits similar to the Hamstring Feat from complete warrior, or any of the ambush feats from Complete Scoundrel.

crazydude369
2011-05-27, 12:23 PM
Some very good points. He is most certainly NOT getting either sneaky or magical for the record, that kills the theme. I think i'll move up piercing strike to a "per encounter" ability with actual dice for damage done, steadily increasing (1d4, 2d4, 3d6, etc.). I agree that it could be more mobile, so maybe i'll add a smallish list of bonus feats to select from, but I'll see if I can't come up with anything else first. Definitely need to make thrown weapons better, so I'll get to that too; I had the idea for a ranged piercing strike with a thrown weapon at higher levels (any ideas for that?). Also might add in something like ignoring points of an enemy's armor bonus, getting better with levels.



they can learn to knock a weapon out of someone's hand, straight into another enemy. i.e. upon a successful disarm, as a free action, make a ranged attack using the disarmed weapon as a thrown weapon.

I love love love this idea, definitely fits the theme, definitely going in.

GodGoblin
2011-05-27, 12:54 PM
That is a cool idea! Maybe make the attack an immediate action rather than a free one though?

How about an ability that lets you Coup De Grace after a feint? Or simply improves your Coup De Grace, call it Throat Slit or something. Could even work as the capstone to your bleeding ability.

Apollishar
2011-05-27, 01:32 PM
The big thing with knife fighting is that you have to be versatile. Disarming is nice, bleeding damage is nice. But to be able to go toe to toe with anything bigger than you, you'd have to be able to disable it. Edit: Basically I'm saying that a knife fighter doesn't win because he dishes out the most damage. He wins because he fights smarter and makes his larger weaponed opponent unable to harm him.

crazydude369
2011-06-01, 08:38 PM
Thanks for all the tips and ideas guys. Looked at what you all said and tweaked a whole bunch of crap. Go take a look at the new and (hopefully) improved knife fighter. :smallbiggrin:

GodGoblin
2011-06-02, 04:20 AM
That looks much better! The abilities are still fighting based (Not a bad thing) but they are now interesting and fun too, loving the disarming/throwing one and the improved parrying is simple and effective. If I find a homebrew game Ill give it a go and let you know how it runs :smallsmile:

crazydude369
2011-06-03, 08:15 PM
Thanx, yea I thought the Combat Maneuvers tree would be fun. And if you were wondering why i left the disarm/ranged attack as a free action instead of immediate, it's because i wanted kinfe fighters with multiple attacks (or disarms, in this case) to be able to do it more than once per round.

crazydude369
2012-11-25, 12:24 PM
Tweaked the skills and added some background stuff.

XionUnborn01
2012-11-26, 01:43 PM
I really like the theme of the class and overall it looks pretty fun to play but I do have a few suggestions.

For the Armor Cutter ability, I think raising the bonuses to 2/4/6 would make it a much more effective ability. Sure he's got full BAB, but it doesn't hurt to be able to almost fully negate someone's full plate.

For the ranged piercing strike, you could just make it use so that you have to be within 30ft and call it a day. You're still along the lines of sneak attack that way and it would add some range.

I would like to see something dealing with feinting before the capstone. Maybe something at 5th level that gives you a small bonus to feint, 10th gives you improved feint and allow it to apply to ranged attacks you make within say 15ft, and 15th level, reduce the penalties against non humanoids and animal intelligence things by 4 and let it effect up to two creatures.

I also think you have an ability that begs for a follow up; Parrying Bonus. what about if an attack misses you by at least half the bonus you gain from Parrying Bonus, you may make an immediate AoO?

Just my 2cp.

crazydude369
2012-11-30, 09:53 AM
I appreciate the feedback Xion. As to your suggestions:


For the Armor Cutter ability, I think raising the bonuses to 2/4/6 would make it a much more effective ability. Sure he's got full BAB, but it doesn't hurt to be able to almost fully negate someone's full plate.

I'm actually happy with where those values are currently; I don't really want him able to fully negate full plate. I mean, if your armor's got chinks that big, let's just hope you saved the receipt. :smallamused:


For the ranged piercing strike, you could just make it use so that you have to be within 30ft and call it a day. You're still along the lines of sneak attack that way and it would add some range.

Honestly, I had actually forgotten about doing that. Added in.


I would like to see something dealing with feinting before the capstone. Maybe something at 5th level that gives you a small bonus to feint, 10th gives you improved feint and allow it to apply to ranged attacks you make within say 15ft, and 15th level, reduce the penalties against non humanoids and animal intelligence things by 4 and let it effect up to two creatures.

I had actually tooled around with the idea of adding feinting as a third combat maneuver tree. Went ahead and wrote that up too. Also added capstone abilities for tripping and disarming I just need to add the capstone in for disarming. Apparently my brain's decided to stop working, so I'll see what pops up when I wake up.


I also think you have an ability that begs for a follow up; Parrying Bonus. what about if an attack misses you by at least half the bonus you gain from Parrying Bonus, you may make an immediate AoO?

Did you perhaps not notice Parrying Mastery? It's pretty much what you're talking about I think.

Yitzi
2012-11-30, 02:47 PM
Looks like something I'd be interested in playing...a DEX-based (INT secondary) build with this class could be nasty.

XionUnborn01
2012-11-30, 06:08 PM
I'm actually happy with where those values are currently; I don't really want him able to fully negate full plate. I mean, if your armor's got chinks that big, let's just hope you saved the receipt.

Fair enough.


Honestly, I had actually forgotten about doing that. Added in.

Even better that you didn't add in an additional cost.


I had actually tooled around with the idea of adding feinting as a third combat maneuver tree. Went ahead and wrote that up too. Also added capstone abilities for tripping and disarming I just need to add the capstone in for disarming. Apparently my brain's decided to stop working, so I'll see what pops up when I wake up.

I like it, seems like a good tree to me.


Did you perhaps not notice Parrying Mastery? It's pretty much what you're talking about I think.

...Touche...I did miss that.

I really enjoy this class, If I find a group to play with that'll allow it I'd happily test it for you.

crazydude369
2012-12-01, 12:12 AM
Thanks, I'd really appreciate that. I'd like to know how it holds up against both rogues and standard melee fighters.

Yitzi
2012-12-01, 07:17 PM
I think it's going to be a very different approach than either in combat. Both standard "optimized" fighter builds and 2WF rogue builds are designed to do a lot of melee damage quickly. The knife fighter can't really compete with that. But what he can do is be a very versatile fighter with fairly good defense. He's mainly a melee fighter, but can also do ranged fairly well (at least at fairly close range), making him good for killing that guy on the high ground. His DEX focus also makes him fairly good at defense (especially defense against ranged touch attacks*), and that's before considering his class abilities. He's also going to want INT, meaning that he's all set to take Combat Expertise and punish low-AC moderate-attack-bonus high-damage builds.

*True Strike could still pose an issue, but that's true no matter what, and at least he can ready a thrown weapon to hopefully disrupt the enemy on casting.

By the way, there's a mistake there; you said that he gets a lower chance of thrown weapons being destroyed, but in fact thrown weapons are never destroyed when used, only ammunition (and shurikens) are.

crazydude369
2012-12-03, 07:37 AM
Ok, so I finally added in the disarming capstone.


By the way, there's a mistake there; you said that he gets a lower chance of thrown weapons being destroyed, but in fact thrown weapons are never destroyed when used, only ammunition (and shurikens) are.

Apparently I misread that. Took out those abilities and moved Point Blank Shot to 2nd level to cut down on dead levels, back to just 19th again. But, not too bad.

XionUnborn01
2012-12-03, 04:16 PM
Because this class loves crits so much, and you have 19th level as a dead level, what about adding in an ability like this;

Everything Bleeds
All creatures-living, undead, or animated by magic-can bleed, they all have some essential essence flowing through them.

At 19th level, a knife fighter has a chance to score a critical hit on enemies normally immune. The knife fighter has a 25% chance to succeed on a critical hit if the target is normally immune, if using an ability that doesn't normally work on creatures immune to critical hits that ability also has a 25% chance to succeed. If the target has fortification, the ability to negate a critical hit is reduced by 25%



That gives the knife fighters a chance against the higher level creatures that are by and large immune to critical hits, and allows the piercing strike ability plus any possible sneak attack they might have to possibly work.

crazydude369
2012-12-04, 09:16 AM
Because this class loves crits so much, and you have 19th level as a dead level, what about adding in an ability like this;

Everything Bleeds

That's actually perfect, thank you. I hadn't even thought that the feinting tree's capstone would be effectively useless on such a creature, making tripping and disarming clear winners, so thanks for rebuffing my blatant absent mindedness. Although 25% seemed a bit small at 19th level, so I made it an increasing rate thing.


If the target has fortification, the ability to negate a critical hit is reduced by 25%

What exactly do you mean by 'fortification'?

XionUnborn01
2012-12-04, 02:13 PM
What exactly do you mean by 'fortification'?

Like the light/medium/heavy fortification armor special abilities (DMG 219) that give 25/75/100% that any critical hit or sneak attack made on the wearer is ignored and the damage is rolled as normal. That would mean no sneak attack, or no extra damage from a crit. Some creatures also have similar abilities. So this ability would reduce the chance for the fortification to trigger by 25%.

Then again, maybe it's a redundant ability...that's completely up to you.

crazydude369
2012-12-05, 02:06 AM
I hadn't thought of such armor, included something about it for clarity. As for the idea of reducing that armor quality, I'm not really a fan of taking away something someone payed for just like that; it makes sense that armor able to stop crits can stop crits.

XionUnborn01
2012-12-05, 04:43 PM
I hadn't thought of such armor, included something about it for clarity. As for the idea of reducing that armor quality, I'm not really a fan of taking away something someone payed for just like that; it makes sense that armor able to stop crits can stop crits.

That's fair. If anyone had the time to check for creatures that had similar abilities, if there was enough of them to warrant it, you could still add it with the stipulation that it only works on non-magic sources.

crazydude369
2013-03-24, 12:38 PM
Still open to more input on this.

drack
2013-03-26, 08:08 PM
Lets start with "sorry" :smallbiggrin:

Sorry Crazydude, but after DMing for a while I've come to being harshly honest with my critiques. Mind you I don't believe in critiquing fluff as that is as much the brewer's invention as their unique mechanics, but I do tend to see balance through the eyes of a hardcore powergamer, so no offense intended. :smallbiggrin:

"When wielding a knife fighter weapon in his main hand, a knife fighter adds his Dex modifier to his damage rolls. When wielding a knife fighter weapon in his off hand, he adds ½ of his Dex modifier to his damage rolls. This is in place of the normal Str modifier added to melee damage; a knife fighter does not add both his Str and Dex to his damage rolls. A knife fighter may choose to use his Str modifier instead (if he happens to have a higher Str than Dex, for instance). At tenth level, a knife fighter adds his Dex modifier plus ½ to damage rolls for knife fighter weapons in his main hand, and his entire Dex modifier to his off hand."
Phrasing-wise "in place of his strength modifier" in that first ssentence might be simpler, and "At tenth level this bonus increases to..." so that ti doesn't sound like a separate ability.

Expert Combat Maneuvers: may want to look at the tripping bit. That's some pretty easy stunning... still I suppose there are worse things, so just a suggestion.

Legendary Combat Maneuvers: the trip on this I would not allow with expert combat maneuvers.

Lastly is the bleeding additive?

Oh my... I guess I didn't need to say hurtful things on the balance of the class after all :smallbiggrin:

crazydude369
2013-03-27, 08:33 AM
I'll get to the grammar cleanups later.


Expert Combat Maneuvers: may want to look at the tripping bit. That's some pretty easy stunning... still I suppose there are worse things, so just a suggestion.

I mean, I guess. But at 14th level? Doesn't really sound that bad, after all Hold Person lets Clerics halt others at 3rd level.


Legendary Combat Maneuvers: the trip on this I would not allow with expert combat maneuvers.

The tripping tree capstone was the one I was most worried about. What about just taking off the free attacks? An AoE stun effect centered on oneself that requires several attack rolls shouldn't be so overpowered at 20th level.


Lastly is the bleeding additive?

If he is able to use this ability more than once per day, he may use it more than once on the same target with the effects stacking.

Yessir.

drack
2013-03-27, 10:05 AM
bold :smallbiggrin:

I'll get to the grammar cleanups later. k, more formatting then grammar. f everything is written in the same format people find them easier to read



I mean, I guess. But at 14th level? Doesn't really sound that bad, after all Hold Person lets Clerics halt others at 3rd level. It also gives a save... I know of ways to give it without a save, though they're rather expensive. Still I won't begrudge you it.


The tripping tree capstone was the one I was most worried about. What about just taking off the free attacks? An AoE stun effect centered on oneself that requires several attack rolls shouldn't be so overpowered at 20th level. I think it's fine either without the 2+int times as many attempts, or without the stunning. Either on it;s own is a flashy perk to attract a vary specialized character, together they're silly.


Yessir.
K, just making sure else I'd have suggested upping the dice. :smallbiggrin: