Dragonfire Adept vs Dragon Shaman

[Darth_Versity]

So I'm designing a back up character who will be a dragonwrought kobold who insists he is a true dragon. To help show off his 'draconic power' I want a breath weapon.

At first I thought of a sorcerer/kobold paragon/dragonheart mage and just converting spells into a breath weapon, but then I decided that I didn't want to multi class as I always make these over complicated builds.

So that left two base classes that I could take all the way pretty easily. Dragonfire adept and dragon shaman. However, which one? I really like both and so I ask you guys to help me decide with your opinions/experiences with both classes.

[Morph Bark]

Dragon Shaman is seen as lacklustre due to being very passive and having little options. Dragonfire Adept is very nice due to invocations, but take to mind that invokers are slightly weaker (mostly due to versatility) than other casters, though their strength is their at-wills of course, making them incredibly nice at low levels. They can also be made to be prettymuch SAD, depending only on Con and picking no-save invocations.

You could ask your DM if you could play a Gestalt version with these combined as it wouldn't be overpowering, especially if you play with people who usually go for Tier 3 or higher classes.

[Ernir]

Dragonfire Adept is usually considered more powerful. Also, its breath weapon is more central to what it does than the breath weapon of the Dragon Shaman.
And if you're looking for a 1-to-20 class rather than a dip as a part of a larger build, definitely take the DFA. The DS just doesn't have what it takes, even if its early abilities are useful.

If you want a breath weapon that scales with level but don't want to waste a lot of class levels on it, you could become a Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon. Some refluffing may be necessary.) and choose the heart aspect.

[Feytalist]

It also depends on your role in the party. Dragon Shaman is a good backup warrior-type, with those auras and touch of vitality. Dragonfire adept is of course more versatile and has a few caster-type options.

I myself like Dragon Shaman, since that's the type of character I like to play. With power aura active you boost the party nicely, then switch to vigor for some extra staying power. And you can use your breath weapon constantly.

One thing though, I haven't found any useful PrC for Dragon Shaman to level into, unfortunately. Which does suck just a bit.

[Darth_Versity]

Good advice, thanks guys and I can see why the adept would be better even though I've never seen one in play, but there's one thing that makes me consider the dragon shaman, Double Draconic Aura. Although you have to wait for lvl 12 to get it, I would thought having two auras at once is extremely powerful.

[Veyr]

Dragonfire Adept is very much stronger, more flexible and versatile, and overall better designed than the Dragon Shaman. The Dragon Shaman has loads of issues, most notable of which is that his main class features are passive, which means in battle you pretty much just... stand there. And let everyone have your aura. But you don't really do anything. Their breath weapon is weak, they have no class features that will really help them in melee, so the aura is the only thing they do.

And a lot of DMs subconsciously fall into the trap of just bumping up the monsters' numbers to compensate for your aura, which means your party would have exactly the same challenge if you just weren't there.


And nothing about the auras can be described as "extremely powerful". They could be called "nifty", but that's about as far as it goes. Two at once doesn't particularly change this. They're rather minor effects overall.

[Cog]

That would depend on the strength of the auras. Two low-level abilities really aren't the same value as one higher-level ability.

[Morph Bark]

If you want a breath weapon that scales with level but don't want to waste a lot of class levels on it, you could become a Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon. Some refluffing may be necessary.) and choose the heart aspect.

Can't become Dragonborn if you're a Dragonwrought Kobold.

[subject42]

Doesn't incarnum offer a breath weapon, as well as a draconic meld or two?


In terms of your original question, the Dragon Shaman is awesome as a cohort, and it's pretty good if you rolled terrible stats. Otherwise it's like something that sits halfway between a Paladin and a rogue in normal play.

The Dragonfire adept is awesome, and usually results in the DM throttling you once a party with four Dragonfire Adept cohorts just burrows through a dungeon with acid breath.

[Godskook]

Dragonfire Adept > Dragon Shaman, a sad yet true fact. *ESPECIALLY* for copying a dragon's abilities. Compare:

Flight - Adepts get flight at level 6 while Shamans wait until level 19. Admittedly the Adept's wings are spectral looking, but its easier to fix looks than it is to gain functionality.

Spells - An Adept understands concepts of magic and can pick up random wands and use them, as if a real dragon(via UMD). A Shaman is basically a Fighter who likes dragons in this department.

Breath Weapon - The Adept weapon is at-will(yes, if you gain a 2nd standard action, you *can* use it twice in the same round), while the Shaman weapon is once every 1d4 rounds. Five-fold breath is also the most damage you will probably ever roll in a single round, and metabreath feats simply have nothing to keep up with that, let alone the added recharge times they require.

Auras vs Invocations - Auras can be purchased via feats, and are considered weak feat choices. Invocations are basically at-will spells. An Adept can spend 3 feats to get his favorite 2 auras on 24/7, while there's simply no way that the Shaman can get invocations.

Battle time - A Shaman uses his breath weapon as an opener, finisher, *or* emergency back-up, and unless he invested heavily in this essentially 1-2/encounter ability, he's then stuck using normal weapons, which his class offers little support for. An Adept was meant to spam his breath weapon, but also has access to various invocations(look like spells) that can be used in combat too.

Finally:
Fluff - A Dragon Shaman is a subservient brown-noser who wants to get in good with his dragon patron. On the other hand, Dragonfire Adepts can rise to equality with the True Dragons they emulate.

[Cog]

Can't become Dragonborn if you're a Dragonwrought Kobold.
I'm pretty sure that's not true; the only requirements I see are non-evil and a non-animal Int. Citation?


...while there's simply no way that the Shaman can get invocations.
This isn't strictly true - there's an ACF for it that trades out an aura to get an invocation.

[mootoall]

When a class' features can be replaced with a feat, it is not a good class. Goes for the Monk, goes for the Dragon Shaman. [/thread]

[Darth_Versity]

Well I'm sold. Dragonfire adept it is. Is there anyway to get blindsense or a similar ability on that class (mindsight would do)?

[Cog]

Well I'm sold. Dragonfire adept it is. Is there anyway to get blindsense or a similar ability on that class (mindsight would do)?
Dragonborn can do that, too. Alternatively, Draconic Senses plus a few more draconic feats will do it.

[Darth_Versity]

Dragonborn can do that, too. Alternatively, Draconic Senses plus a few more draconic feats will do it.

Dragonborn isn't possible unfortunatly as bahumut doesn't exist in my dm's setting. Only the Complete warrior pantheon + wee jas.

[Ernir]

Can't become Dragonborn if you're a Dragonwrought Kobold
I managed to miss the Dragonwrought stuff, but still... is this a problem?

Well I'm sold. Dragonfire adept it is. Is there anyway to get blindsense or a similar ability on that class (mindsight would do)?
Yes. Voidsense, a lesser invocation.

[subject42]

Well I'm sold. Dragonfire adept it is. Is there anyway to get blindsense or a similar ability on that class (mindsight would do)?

You can get blindsense to 30' as the voidsense invocation.

[Stallion]

You can also take the Charm invocation and dip into a level of mindbender for the 100 foot telepathy before picking up mindsight. You won't lose any invocation or breath weapon power, but you'd be giving up the 20th level class abilities (well worth it IMO).

[MeeposFire]

Good advice, thanks guys and I can see why the adept would be better even though I've never seen one in play, but there's one thing that makes me consider the dragon shaman, Double Draconic Aura. Although you have to wait for lvl 12 to get it, I would thought having two auras at once is extremely powerful.

You could just spend a feat on draconic aura and then spend another one for double aura if that is really what you want and you get 4/5 of the popwer too.

Void sense will get you blindsense (which is all you need since you won't ever make an attack roll so blindsense will tell you where the target is so that is all you need to know). I also like the draconic senses feat if you are going to pick up a few draconic feats like draconic knowledge since that also gives you blindsense saving you an invocation.

[Tokuhara]

I suggest Dragon Shaman, since it has greater survivability, and add the Invocation ACF from Dragon Magic so now, you are "Essentially" a gestalt Dragon Shaman/Dragonfire Adept

[Cog]

Focusing on survivability to the exclusion of actively resolving encounters really doesn't work well in 3.5. Shaman may be more survivable (though I have my suspicions), but it's so much more lacking in things to do that DFA still comes out ahead.

[Tokuhara]

Focusing on survivability to the exclusion of actively resolving encounters really doesn't work well in 3.5. Shaman may be more survivable (though I have my suspicions), but it's so much more lacking in things to do that DFA still comes out ahead.

I meant by Shaman having a larger Hit Dice, better BAB, and with the Shamanic Invocation ACF where they drop the Auras for DFA's Invocations, you have plenty do do and can end encounters more efficiently

[Veyr]

I meant by Shaman having a larger Hit Dice, better BAB, and with the Shamanic Invocation ACF where they drop the Auras for DFA's Invocations, you have plenty do do and can end encounters more efficiently
HD size barely matters, BAB matters less, and Dragon Shamans get fewer Auras than the Dragonfire Adept gets Invocations (though you get 7 much sooner, that's ignoring the Breath Effects), plus the Dragonfire Adept's breath is much, much better.

[Cog]

I meant by Shaman having a larger Hit Dice, better BAB, and with the Shamanic Invocation ACF where they drop the Auras for DFA's Invocations, you have plenty do do and can end encounters more efficiently

It's a one step difference in hit die, made up for by DFA's greater Con SADness.
BAB doesn't matter when you can nuke things every round.
You can replace only a single aura with a single least invocation, and you don't even get full CL for it.

Edit: Oh, hey, ninja.

[Draz74]

In a non-high-op game, Dragon Shamans actually can make surprisingly good meatshields/healers. And anyone who doesn't believe me needs to read the SilverClawShift Archives again. So if you want to be a Dragon Shaman, don't listen to people saying that they inevitably suck.

But yes, Dragonfire Adepts are more powerful overall, being much better at everything except healing or whacking monsters with a pointy stick (and sadly, Dragon Shamans still aren't particularly good at the latter). If your character concept is "I want to become a dragon!", this is definitely the better choice.


Auras can be purchased via feats, and are considered weak feat choices.

I'd say there's nothing weak about taking the Senses aura on a dragonblooded character. By Level 7, it's like taking the Alertness feat and half the Improved Initiative feat ... for you and your whole party. And it keeps scaling at higher levels.

[Tokuhara]

HD size barely matters, BAB matters less, and Dragon Shamans get fewer Auras than the Dragonfire Adept gets Invocations (though you get 7 much sooner, that's ignoring the Breath Effects), plus the Dragonfire Adept's breath is much, much better.

Hence why I said use the Shamanic Invocations ACF to drop Auras (among WotC's worst ideas ever) for a better class feature. And he said a breath weapon. Who cares how it's obtained. Hell, he could buy a fricken' graft for all I care. I just suggested the Dragon Shaman Shamanic Invoker to give him a cushion should Dumb Orc #1 decide to use the OP's face as a punching bag

[subject42]

I meant by Shaman having a larger Hit Dice, better BAB, and with the Shamanic Invocation ACF where they drop the Auras for DFA's Invocations, you have plenty do do and can end encounters more efficiently

BAB doesn't matter for the DFA since its breath weapon doesn't require an attack roll; it triggers saves instead.

The DFA's breath weapon DC scales on CON mod, so increasing your breath weapon power also increases your HP. In many cases a DFA will have more HP overall than a dragon shaman.

[MeeposFire]

I disagree. As a dragon shaman you need to have decent str or dex to make yourself a threat on the rounds that you can't use your BW. DFAs are always using a BW or an invocation (most of the time without saves) so a DFA is likely to go all in on con so your average of +1 HP per level on average is more than made up for by the con boost that a FDA has. Further the ability to fly early with constant "ranged" attacks allows the DFA to stay away from melee threats better and since DFAs don't make attack rolls they can just wear whatever armor and shields they want for the first dozen levels or so since they are unlikely to need to use invocations for offense up to that point.

You can pick up one least invocation which is not very strong whereas the DFA can pick up your aura for one feat (and it will be 4/5 as potent at high levels). BAB is not needed for a DFA who never makes an attack roll, and dragon shamans have nothing that ends encounters efficiently. Auras are useful but not strong, BW is not usable enough nor does enough damage to be a real threat on its own, other abilities are weak in combat. You are playing a character that is weak in melee than a warrior, weaker at healing than a cleric, weaker at boosting than a bard, and not as versatile as a bard or DFA. Also DFA gets twice the skill points with an excellent list.

DFA is much more efficient at ending encounters since it offers superb control with entangling breath chilling fog, and slow breath among others. You can so screw over the enemy that your allies can mop up the encounter which is something the dragon shaman has a lot of trouble doing.

[Godskook]

I suggest Dragon Shaman, since it has greater survivability, and add the Invocation ACF from Dragon Magic so now, you are "Essentially" a gestalt Dragon Shaman/Dragonfire Adept

Um, no.

1.As others pointed out, the DFA is more survivable. This is not only due to his Con SAD, but also cause he is perfectly capable of wearing full-plate and just soaking the massive ACP(despite being non-proficient). The 'healing' that the Shaman has is a single feat, and can be mostly ignored later on since a DFA generally doesn't dip below half health thanks to the Draconic Toughness invocation.

2.The DFA's breath weapon is almost entirely superior to the Shamans, especially on a non-good character, and that's *BEFORE* accounting for the fact that DFAs get it every round.

3.*THAT* ACF? hahahahahahaha. You must be joking. You're comparing an ACF that grants 1 least invocation to DFA's dark invocations?!?

Dragon Shamans have their niche, but mimicing a DFA is *NOT* one of them, nor are they more survivable.

(And for anyone that wants to defend the class, please don't. I like D-Shaman, and have said on these boards many times that I'd like to play a gestalt Dragonborn Dragon-Shaman/DFA for breath weapon shenanigans, but on topic, they're simply not up to the same par that DFAs are.)


I'd say there's nothing weak about taking the Senses aura on a dragonblooded character. By Level 7, it's like taking the Alertness feat and half the Improved Initiative feat ... for you and your whole party. And it keeps scaling at higher levels.

Some of the auras are somewhat better than others, but when you're comparing them to stuff like Able Learner(on classes other than DFA), Entangling Exhalation, or Extra Invocation, they aren't hi-optimization feats. Hence, 'weak'.

[mootoall]

I ... actually played almost that exact character. Gestalt DFA/DS Dragonborn Raptoran, keeping Raptoran flight because the DM was nice and taking the Heart aspect. Metabreath shenanigans all around! Only took something like the seventh level of DS before I started multiclassing that side. Just didn't seem worth it.

[Godskook]

I ... actually played almost that exact character. Gestalt DFA/DS Dragonborn Raptoran, keeping Raptoran flight because the DM was nice and taking the Heart aspect. Metabreath shenanigans all around! Only took something like the seventh level of DS before I started multiclassing that side. Just didn't seem worth it.

Dragonborn keeps all movement modes of the parent race. I can't imagine anyone ruling that by RAW, raptoran dragonborns don't keep their raptoran flight.

[Morph Bark]

I'm pretty sure that's not true; the only requirements I see are non-evil and a non-animal Int. Citation?

IIRC, you also have to be humanoid.

If not, dragon dragonborn anyone? :smallwink:

[Cog]

IIRC, you also have to be humanoid.
Not that I can see, thus why I was asking for an actual citation. The basic stats assume humanoid, but the requirements don't put any restrictions other than those I listed, and the Rebirth sidebar talks about keeping type - which wouldn't need to be stated again if they were all humanoids anyway.

The web version doesn't include the sidebar, but it does include the non-restrictive prereqs.


If not, dragon dragonborn anyone? :smallwink:
That seems to actually be possible. For a wyrmling who's taken a lot of class levels, it might even work out well, but most dragons would lose far more than they gain.

[Veyr]

In a non-high-op game, Dragon Shamans actually can make surprisingly good meatshields/healers. And anyone who doesn't believe me needs to read the SilverClawShift Archives again. So if you want to be a Dragon Shaman, don't listen to people saying that they inevitably suck.
SilverClawShift's campaigns are awesome, but they are not particularly optimized.

[Greenish]

So I'm designing a back up character who will be a dragonwrought kobold who insists he is a true dragon.Hah, I've had the exact same idea. :smallcool:

Old grumpy kobold who demands respect from everyone. "I'm a great wyrm!". Then sleep curled on top of your Handy Haversack.

[FMArthur]

Dragonborn keeps all movement modes of the parent race. I can't imagine anyone ruling that by RAW, raptoran dragonborns don't keep their raptoran flight.

By RAW they only lose the flight if they transform prior to attaining 5HD. If they have > 5HD and < 11HD, they keep the flight and lose its limitations, which is as utterly bewildering as you might imagine. After 11HD they can transform without changing their flight ability.

So most DMs will probably just let them keep their special flight to avoid rules stupidity.

[Thurbane]

IIRC, you also have to be humanoid.

If not, dragon dragonborn anyone? :smallwink:
Some of the text in RotD is a little misleading, almost implying that no matter what your original type is, the Dragonborn "template" turns you into a Humanoid (dragonblood). The Official FAQ (yes, I know how was all love it) has this to say:


Can a warforged become a dragonborn of Bahamut, and if so what are the racial traits it keeps from the warforged list?
Despite the misleading entry in the dragonborn racial traits that suggests that all dragonborn are humanoids, the only prerequisites for being reborn in this manner are a non-evil alignment and an Intelligence of 3 or better. Thus, there’s nothing stopping a warforged from undergoing this ritual and dedicating himself to the service of Bahamut

...as to the OP, I played a Dragon Shaman through the EttRoG with my group last year, and I found it a lot of fun. Having said that, I've currently just started playing a DFA in a PbP game, and it's a better class in most ways. It more flexible, and has more to do with it's abilities.

As someone pointed out above, about the only thing the DS does better is melee. I've seen some "fixes" for the DS that included upping it's skill points to 4/level, giving it full BAB, and/or speeding up the progression of it's Draconic Auras.

[Greenish]

So, you have natural weapons, breath weapon, spells (or SLAs, anyhow) and wings. There's only one thing missing.

Is there a way to get Frightful Presence? (Aside from Dreadful Wrath, which has race limitations and doesn't really work with the breath weapon.)

Also, is there a compendium somewhere of the fancy things a dragon-type PC can get? (I don't mean just the cheesy ones like epic feats, but cool stuff in general.)

[The Cat Goddess]

So, you have natural weapons, breath weapon, spells (or SLAs, anyhow) and wings. There's only one thing missing.

Is there a way to get Frightful Presence? (Aside from Dreadful Wrath, which has race limitations and doesn't really work with the breath weapon.)

Also, is there a compendium somewhere of the fancy things a dragon-type PC can get? (I don't mean just the cheesy ones like epic feats, but cool stuff in general.)

There are a large number of fear\intimidation-based feats you can get.

[Greenish]

There are a large number of fear\intimidation-based feats you can get.I know. I asked whether there's (another) one that gives you Frightful Presence. :smallamused:

[subject42]

Is there a way to get Frightful Presence? (Aside from Dreadful Wrath, which has race limitations and doesn't really work with the breath weapon.)

The Frightful presence invocation might cover it.

[Greenish]

The Frightful presence invocation might cover it.http://i.bnet.com/blogs/homer_doh.png

Well, that's nifty when preceded by a move action intimidation and Imperious Command. :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

Hey, just a side question here: is it worth a DFA taking a 2 level dip into Chameleon to get the "floating feat", and then use it for Extra Invocation - in effect, getting a floating daily invocation that can be up to one grade less than you're highest? It would involve getting Disguise as a class skill somehow...

[Amnestic]

Hey, just a side question here: is it worth a DFA taking a 2 level dip into Chameleon to get the "floating feat", and then use it for Extra Invocation - in effect, getting a floating daily invocation that can be up to one grade less than you're highest? It would involve getting Disguise as a class skill somehow...

Dropping two DFA levels loses you your immunities to Sleep/Paralysis, +1d6 on your breath and a breath effect.

Trading that for an extra Greater Invocation...could be worth it depending on what you choose and how many Extras you already have. Draconic Toughness and Chilling Fogs are almost must-have greaters (the former for Fivefold Breath, the latter for MOAR CONTROL!). Baleful Geas is another one you'd want - but only if your DM rules it's a standard action instead of 10 minutes.

Aura of Flame is meh. Devour Magic may be useful, but wouldn't be my first choice. Terrifying Roar is good on fear-based builds of course, and I'd only choose Wingstorm if I was abusing Humanoid Shape shenanigans.

I probably wouldn't bother with the Chameleon dip, but I can understand why people might choose to as the floating feat could be nice if you're particularly starved for Invocations you want.

[NineThePuma]

*snip*

Also, there isn't even a "RAI wasn't meant this way!" argument, as the author of the section uses a Dargonborn Warforged in her home campaign. Nevermind the fluff being aimed toward humanoids.

Best thing ever? Dragonborn Red Dragon. ;D

[Draz74]

SilverClawShift's campaigns are awesome, but they are not particularly optimized.

Neither are most other campaigns. :smalltongue:

[Veyr]

I'm sorry, brain-fart: I read "non-high-op" as "high-op" in your original post, completely inverting your meaning.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why choose between one or the other when you can have both?

Dragontouched lets auras continue to progress based on character level. One level dip, and you get three auras, that automatically progress as you level up. Pick up Double Aura at 12th level. Done.

So you would be looking at Dragon Shaman 1/DFA 19

[Thurbane]

As people have suggested above, you can actually do a pretty decent imitation of a Dragon Shaman using almost any class as the base - breath weapon through the Dragonborn template, Draconic Auras through the feat of the same name (which increase with level if you are a dragonblood). These are two of the DS signature abilities. The 19th level Wings "capstone" can be via the Draconic Wings feat chain (or being a Raptoran). Touch of Vitality is a little harder - a Paladin can do it with lay on Hands and Caduceus Bracers, or most divine casters can approximate (and better) it's effects with spells and/or the Healing Touch reserve feat. Energy Resistance and Draconic Adaptation are handled easily enough with items. Commune with the Dragon Spirit is hardly worth writing home about at 14th level.

Yeah, it's a little sad that a whole base class can basically be emulated so easily with feat, items and a +0 LA template. :smallfrown:

[BluesEclipse]

So, you have natural weapons, breath weapon, spells (or SLAs, anyhow) and wings. There's only one thing missing.

Is there a way to get Frightful Presence? (Aside from Dreadful Wrath, which has race limitations and doesn't really work with the breath weapon.)

Also, is there a compendium somewhere of the fancy things a dragon-type PC can get? (I don't mean just the cheesy ones like epic feats, but cool stuff in general.)

You want the Draconomicon. It has feats that dragons can take(Metabreath feats, in particular) as well as dragon-related feats for humans(such as Frightful Presence).

[Draz74]

I'm sorry, brain-fart: I read "non-high-op" as "high-op" in your original post, completely inverting your meaning.

Ah. Yeah, I would have posted an objection to my post too. :smallsmile:

[Set]

I enjoyed a a Dragonfire Channeling (Dragon Magic p. 17) Cleric with the Earth and Fire Domains, giving him three different sources of Turn / Rebuke to turn into fiery blasts (one from Earth Domains ability to Turn Air or Rebuke / Command Earth creatures, a second from the Fire Domains ability to Turn Water or Rebuke / Command Fire creatures, and a third from his innate Turn/Command Undead abilities).

Combined with items (phylactery of turning, eberron's special flameforged holy symbols, etc.), feats (improved turning), etc. you can pump your effective turning level significantly higher than your class level, to make the fire attacks more powerful. The Char Ops forums were full of such ideas in their Cleric Guides and Turning Guides, but I'm not sure how easy they are to find these days.

Extra Turning applies to every source of T/R attempts, so a single purchase of the feat, at 3rd level, could give the Earth/Fire Cleric *twelve* additional uses of Dragonfire Channeling a day.

It's not technically a breath weapon, since it comes from the holy symbol, but a character could hold the holy symbol up and blow on it to trigger the effect, and cause it to manifest much like a breath weapon.

The big flaw with the build was a crappy 15 ft. cone of effect. Some sort of 'Enlarge Breath' feat applicable to the attack would have been *wonderful,* but would have to be custom and GM approved.

[Feytalist]

Why choose between one or the other when you can have both?

Dragontouched lets auras continue to progress based on character level. One level dip, and you get three auras, that automatically progress as you level up. Pick up Double Aura at 12th level. Done.

So you would be looking at Dragon Shaman 1/DFA 19

Huh, I never knew about that. Must have just skipped that when I was skimming the book.

And three auras are really all you need.

[Darth_Versity]

My Dm has said ok to dragonborn even though bahumut doesnt exist in his setting so now I have another question for this.

When a dragonborn is made, their age goes to adult regardless of their previous age category. Now I want to know, if a Dragonwrought Kobold was venerable before he transformed does he keep his age modifiers? If he does, does he get more modifiers when he reaches middle age again for dragonborn?

Also, are their any other LA 0 templates which grant CON bonuses?

[Darrin]

Also, are their any other LA 0 templates which grant CON bonuses?

Arctic racial template (Dragon #306). Con +2, Cha -2.

[Darth Stabber]

It's not technically a breath weapon, since it comes from the holy symbol, but a character could hold the holy symbol up and blow on it to trigger the effect, and cause it to manifest much like a breath weapon.

Swallow the holy symbol? I would recommend the wooden ones, you don't want to try to pass a giant lump of silver.

On a more serious note, depending on the deity and what the required size of holy symbols is, you could try for a holy symbol tongue ring.

[Karsh]

Six words:

Slow Breath
Entangling Exhalation
Chilling Fog

DFAs are masters of battlefield control, and having played one, I will also guarantee you that your party will love you for the free instant Identifies which you can produce with the Detect Magic invocation.

Plus, the DFA breath weapon can ignore your allies if you take the obligatory Endure Exposure invocation.

It's significantly better than the Dragon Shaman, and much more fun to play, in my experience. Plus since you get Dragontouched as a bonus feat, you can always take the Draconic Aura feat and get a scaling aura anyways.

[Darth Stabber]

I am huge fan of Dragon Shaman, and would happily play one in a low op game.

Given my anti-dragon fanboy predelictions I have a homebrew version that strips any reference to dragons from the class entry, turns immunity to dragon's frightful presence and give them immunity to fear, fix the class skills to a single class list, allow any alignment, make the bonus skill focus able to affect any class skill, and let them choose breath weapon and special abilities, and they are illiterate (as per barbarian), and give them a d12hd. They are limited to the 4 standard damage types (though I am considering allowing sonic, but only rolling d4s). They become a generic barbaric shaman class, but it works for me.

I really don't like DFA. Flavorfully they overlap too much with Dragonshaman, or worse the justification is "I like dwagons, so i has fire bweff". Mechanically, they are refluffed warlocks with a few minor tweaks. I respect the power of the class, but if i was going to use it, i would refluff it as a warlock with eldritch breath.

[HugeC]

Dragontouched lets auras continue to progress based on character level.
I looked at the feat description for Dragontouched and the section in Dragon Magic about draconic auras, but I can't find where it says that. Where is this rule?

[Draz74]

I am huge fan of Dragon Shaman, and would happily play one in a low op game.

Given my anti-dragon fanboy predelictions I have a homebrew version that strips any reference to dragons from the class entry, turns immunity to dragon's frightful presence and give them immunity to fear, fix the class skills to a single class list, allow any alignment, make the bonus skill focus able to affect any class skill, and let them choose breath weapon and special abilities, and they are illiterate (as per barbarian), and give them a d12hd. They are limited to the 4 standard damage types (though I am considering allowing sonic, but only rolling d4s). They become a generic barbaric shaman class, but it works for me.

I really don't like DFA. Flavorfully they overlap too much with Dragonshaman, or worse the justification is "I like dwagons, so i has fire bweff". Mechanically, they are refluffed warlocks with a few minor tweaks. I respect the power of the class, but if i was going to use it, i would refluff it as a warlock with eldritch breath.

I think re-fluffing to remove the dragon-specific stuff works just fine for both classes. Dragon Shaman, as you said, becomes simply a "shaman" class (the best one in the game if you don't want to deal with Vancian casting). DFA, on the other hand, becomes a generic "Elementalist" caster (with a few other tricks ... Weakening Breath actually works great as a general "curse spell").

[Tvtyrant]

I think re-fluffing to remove the dragon-specific stuff works just fine for both classes. Dragon Shaman, as you said, becomes simply a "shaman" class (the best one in the game if you don't want to deal with Vancian casting). DFA, on the other hand, becomes a generic "Elementalist" caster (with a few other tricks ... Weakening Breath actually works great as a general "curse spell").

Or if Ice a Frost Worm class.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I looked at the feat description for Dragontouched and the section in Dragon Magic about draconic auras, but I can't find where it says that. Where is this rule?

It's in the feat description of the Draconic Aura feat, after the page break. Easy to miss.

[HugeC]

Ah. Well, perhaps I'm being a curmudgeon, but I'd say that text applies only to the aura(s) you get from the Draconic Aura feat(s), and not to auras gained from the Dragon Shaman class. Plus it also says the bonus improves with your class level, not character level... Wait, that doesn't make any sense. :smallconfused:

[Veyr]

Dragon Shaman, as you said, becomes simply a "shaman" class (the best one in the game if you don't want to deal with Vancian casting).
I disagree with the concept of the Dragon Shaman being best in the game at anything. IMO, it's one of the worst-designed classes in 3.5; only things like Fighter, Monk, CW Samurai, and Truenamer stand out as worse.

By worst-designed, I don't necessarily mean least powerful. I mean that it meshes with the game very poorly. It doesn't have (meaningful) actions, relying entirely on passive abilities that are not very effective. An entirely passive class is bad. Fighter is bad because it has no class features; CW Samurai is actually a little better here because it does, but it's still a Fighter with pre-chosen feats and only a few of them are things that the Fighter wouldn't have had access to in any case. The Truenamer is... well, it's the Truenamer.

[Lateral]

I disagree with the concept of the Dragon Shaman being best in the game at anything. IMO, it's one of the worst-designed classes in 3.5; only things like Fighter, Monk, CW Samurai, and Truenamer stand out as worse.

By worst-designed, I don't necessarily mean least powerful. I mean that it meshes with the game very poorly. It doesn't have (meaningful) actions, relying entirely on passive abilities that are not very effective. An entirely passive class is bad. Fighter is bad because it has no class features; CW Samurai is actually a little better here because it does, but it's still a Fighter with pre-chosen feats and only a few of them are things that the Fighter wouldn't have had access to in any case. The Truenamer is... well, it's the Truenamer.
I think he meant "best" as in "best at being shaman-themed," not "most powerful class that is shaman-like."

[Darth Stabber]

I disagree with the concept of the Dragon Shaman being best in the game at anything. IMO, it's one of the worst-designed classes in 3.5; only things like Fighter, Monk, CW Samurai, and Truenamer stand out as worse.

By worst-designed, I don't necessarily mean least powerful. I mean that it meshes with the game very poorly. It doesn't have (meaningful) actions, relying entirely on passive abilities that are not very effective. An entirely passive class is bad. Fighter is bad because it has no class features; CW Samurai is actually a little better here because it does, but it's still a Fighter with pre-chosen feats and only a few of them are things that the Fighter wouldn't have had access to in any case. The Truenamer is... well, it's the Truenamer.

They are actually decent in gestalt for that very reason (primarily passive features). They mesh decently with Barbarian, Fighter, Crusader, Bard, and Warlock. But gestalt is weird in that you want a primarily passive, or atleast competently passive class, due to the action economy issues that variant has.

Also, Dragon Shaman tend to be better than marshals (not a high bar, but it's something).

[Veyr]

I think he meant "best" as in "best at being shaman-themed," not "most powerful class that is shaman-like."
And I explicitly was not talking about power.

Mechanically, the class doesn't really do anything. It's just poorly designed. It doesn't really have any niche or role due to its lack of class features that are relevant.

A Dragonfire Adept makes a far better shaman, as does an appropriately-fluffed Cleric or Druid. Spirit Shaman has shaman in its name, and is again much better-designed. If you want a less casterly version, a Totemist works extremely well, and an Eternal Blade could easily be refluffed in that direction given the nature of the Blade Guide. The Adaptation section for the Binder also mentions a particularly shamanistic concept, though it's not fleshed out and would require some work to introduce into the game. The large number of Natural Weapons that a Psychic Warrior can get also could manage the concept, with some (fairly heavy) refluffing. Any of these represents a massively superior take on the concept, in terms of the overall quality-of-design of the class. Each has useful and unique abilities that can make a sizeable difference in combat. The Dragon Shaman lacks such abilities.

[Draz74]

A Dragonfire Adept makes a far better shaman, as does an appropriately-fluffed Cleric or Druid. Spirit Shaman has shaman in its name, and is again much better-designed. If you want a less casterly version, a Totemist works extremely well, and an Eternal Blade could easily be refluffed in that direction given the nature of the Blade Guide. The Adaptation section for the Binder also mentions a particularly shamanistic concept, though it's not fleshed out and would require some work to introduce into the game. The large number of Natural Weapons that a Psychic Warrior can get also could manage the concept, with some (fairly heavy) refluffing. Any of these represents a massively superior take on the concept, in terms of the overall quality-of-design of the class. Each has useful and unique abilities that can make a sizeable difference in combat. The Dragon Shaman lacks such abilities.

We might just have to agree to disagree about the DS's design. I understand your complaints with its design principles, but on the whole I still don't see it as such a poor class.

I don't particularly like Vancian casting. If I ever DM 3.5e again, chances are good that I will ban it entirely. So I do a lot of thinking about what classes are good for different things under that mindset. And Dragon Shaman is the best non-Vancian class for the traditional healer/support party role, except for the Egoist and maybe the Ardent.

Most of the classes you list don't have any of the healing ability that I'd expect a "shaman" character to have. Most of them also don't have the nature-related skill abilities to make them feel shaman-y to me anyway. (I'll grant you that Totemist makes a pretty fantastic "shaman" other than the healing thing.)

DS optimization tips: I recommend taking Entangling Exhalation, and no other breath weapon-related feats. This way your 2/encounter (ish), low-damage attack becomes a meaningful debuff ability, but you aren't saddled with a bunch of feats that you only get to use 1-2 times per combat. Also, you should definitely increase your offensive options by taking Imperious Command; DS is a good class for fear-stacking tactics. Finally, since you will have some combat rounds where you use neither your breath nor your Intimidate skill, and your default weapon proficiencies suck, I recommend taking EWP with a useful weapon, possibly ranged. Harpoon or Orc Shotput seem like cute options.

My favorite DS build goes like so:
Race: Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar
L1: Brutal Throw
L3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (harpoon)
L6: Imperious Command
L9: Quick Draw
L12: Entangling Exhalation
L15: Double Draconic Aura
L18: Flyby Attack

[FMArthur]

They are actually decent in gestalt for that very reason (primarily passive features). They mesh decently with Barbarian, Fighter, Crusader, Bard, and Warlock. But gestalt is weird in that you want a primarily passive, or atleast competently passive class, due to the action economy issues that variant has.

Also, Dragon Shaman tend to be better than marshals (not a high bar, but it's something).

I disagree! If you're making a charisma-heavy character and have a massive charisma bonus, Marshal is a class that one can take 1-3 levels in to apply that bonus to a variety of things to all allies in a 30ft radius, like initiative, attack damage, strength checks, other ability checks, saves, and CL checks versus SR. It's the "Minor" Aura that makes the class, not the "Major" Aura. For example, on the extreme end of the charisma spectrum, a succubus Marshal character pumping Charisma with everything she's got could be adding as much as +18 to the whole party's initiative, then switch to the '+damage on a charge' aura for the first turn in battle, then gauge the remaining opponents next turn to decide on which type of save she should make the party all but immune to.

It's more likely that the bonus would be around +8 for a high-charisma PC, but even that has its purpose. By contrast I can't even think of a similarly contrived build to take advantage of Dragon Shaman features, because a) none of them can be made significant, and b) other classes do the exact same things better.

[Amnestic]

L18: Flyby Attack

How are you getting Flyby Attack at 18 when you get your wings at 19? :smallconfused:

[Darth Stabber]

I disagree! If you're making a charisma-heavy character and have a massive charisma bonus, Marshal is a class that one can take 1-3 levels in to apply that bonus to a variety of things to all allies in a 30ft radius, like initiative, attack damage, strength checks, other ability checks, saves, and CL checks versus SR. It's the "Minor" Aura that makes the class, not the "Major" Aura. For example, on the extreme end of the charisma spectrum, a succubus Marshal character pumping Charisma with everything she's got could be adding as much as +18 to the whole party's initiative, then switch to the '+damage on a charge' aura for the first turn in battle, then gauge the remaining opponents next turn to decide on which type of save she should make the party all but immune to.

It's more likely that the bonus would be around +8 for a high-charisma PC, but even that has its purpose. By contrast I can't even think of a similarly contrived build to take advantage of Dragon Shaman features, because a) none of them can be made significant, and b) other classes do the exact same things better.

Without heavy optimization, and disregarding dips, I would rather play DS20 than marshall20.

[Veyr]

Most of the classes you list don't have any of the healing ability that I'd expect a "shaman" character to have.
OK, that's a connection I would never make. The Fast Healing til you're at 50% HP thing, though? It's really not that impressive. Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Wand of Vigor do a better job. A Telepath with Empathic Transfer, Vigor, etc. could do well, as could a Psy War who got those through Expanded Knowledge; the Psy War can also do the naturalistic thing well. The Sangehirn or whatever would help along those lines.

With some refluffing, the Crusader could easily be a Shaman/healer: lots of White Raven and Devoted Spirit, speak of him channeling the ancestors, lots of things like "The spirits are with us tonight!"


Most of them also don't have the nature-related skill abilities to make them feel shaman-y to me anyway. (I'll grant you that Totemist makes a pretty fantastic "shaman" other than the healing thing.)
Fluff is mutable.


DS optimization tips: I recommend taking Entangling Exhalation, and no other breath weapon-related feats. This way your 2/encounter (ish),
You're being very generous in assuming you'll get that off twice per encounter. I would assume the majority of the time you will get to use it once.


Also, you should definitely increase your offensive options by taking Imperious Command; DS is a good class for fear-stacking tactics.
What makes the DS any better at this than anything else? More-over, how does it compare to, say, Zhentarim Soldier?


Finally, since you will have some combat rounds where you use neither your breath nor your Intimidate skill, and your default weapon proficiencies suck, I recommend taking EWP with a useful weapon, possibly ranged. Harpoon or Orc Shotput seem like cute options.
Any time any class is reduced to using absolutely no class features and simply attacking with a weapon is very bad. Any class that does so on a regular basis is terribly designed.

Yes, this is a broad indictment of a lot of classes, but I stand by the statement.

[Greenish]

Without heavy optimization, and disregarding dips, I would rather play DS20 than marshall20.And I wouldn't play either.

Seriously, DS has almost no real combat or non-combat options. (Marshal isn't that good, either.)

[NineThePuma]

Guys, this particular dispute is a taste thing. Some people dislike passive classes, others don't.

Personally, I alter the dragon Shaman to have a bit more charisma focus; the Energy Shield aura deals 2 damage per point of aura bonus, plus one half their charisma modifier. Vigor gives them fast healing up to one half their hit points, plus the Dragon Shaman's charisma modifier times their DS class level.

The breath weapon is changed to be the Dragon Born's, and they gain a limited invocation-like system that allows them to use spell likes that their totem picks up.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I will say one thing about Dragon Shaman: unlike the Marshall, the auras are actually viable. They are all untyped bonuses, which means they explicitly stack with everything else. And you get Senses, which adds an untyped bonus to Initiative, which is pretty nifty. Some free out of combat healing with the Vigor aura. And Power aura stacks with DFI, IC, and GMW to cap off the damage output chain.

Is it "ZOMG TEH AWESOME!"? No. Can it be made to be viable? Yes.

[Lans]

Um, no.

The 'healing' that the Shaman has is a single feat, and can be mostly ignored later on since a DFA generally doesn't dip below half health thanks to the Draconic Toughness invocation.


The Shaman also has a lay on hands ability that can remove status effects.

It also gets Divination, which can be plot ruining.

[Veyr]

Guys, this particular dispute is a taste thing. Some people dislike passive classes, others don't.
Ehh... I'd say that I'm less making an argument that "I don't like passive classes", and more "passive classes are bad for the game". Gestalt notwithstanding, passive classes rely on the core mechanic, which only works as a foundation, not an entirely class. These classes don't have the versatility to face varied encounters that having additional class features provide.

[Draz74]

How are you getting Flyby Attack at 18 when you get your wings at 19? :smallconfused:
Dragonborn. The L19 ability still provides a welcome maneuverability/speed boost.


OK, that's a connection I would never make.
Really? Interesting.


The Fast Healing til you're at 50% HP thing, though? It's really not that impressive. Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Wand of Vigor do a better job.
Funny, that aura isn't primarily what I'm even talking about when I mention the DS's healing abilities. It's nice -- particularly at very low levels, especially for stabilizing dropped allies -- but mostly I'm referring to the DS's Touch of Vitality. Twice as good as a Paladin's Lay On Hands, and more importantly, can also fix status conditions (without needing Caduceus Bracers).

And again, I'm not claiming that DS is a strong option in high-op games. Just that it's quite viable in other games.


A Telepath with Empathic Transfer, Vigor, etc. could do well, as could a Psy War who got those through Expanded Knowledge; the Psy War can also do the naturalistic thing well. The Sangehirn or whatever would help along those lines.
Non-Egoist Psioncs really have trouble getting all the necessary powers to be a decent healer. Sangehirn helps a lot, but not until Level 10+, and anyway you have to use Human Paragon or some other way to add Heal to class skills before Sangehirn is even an option. PsyWars don't really have enough PP to be a good healer regardless.


With some refluffing, the Crusader could easily be a Shaman/healer: lots of White Raven and Devoted Spirit, speak of him channeling the ancestors, lots of things like "The spirits are with us tonight!"
Interesting idea. I'll have to muse on that one. Like several of your other suggestions, it's missing the Knowledge (nature) and Survival that I think are key to a Shaman concept.


You're being very generous in assuming you'll get that off twice per encounter. I would assume the majority of the time you will get to use it once.
This is ... one of the more stark contrasts I've ever seen between high-op and other-op experiences. I tend to build characters that are at least high Tier 4, and yet I've rarely seen D&D combat end within 4 rounds. Could be the groups I play with, but in any case ... normal D&D is a lot less "rocket tag" than optimizers tend to get in the habit of thinking (even at Level 1!).


What makes the DS any better at this than anything else?

First of all, the fact that it needs more combat options. :smalltongue: Yes, I'm admitting that the class can be somewhat lackluster round-to-round.
Intimidate as a class skill, natch.
A tendency to be flexible in its feat use. My Warblades don't tend to bother with Imperious Command ... partially because they just don't need more combat options, but also because they tend to be rather feat-starved. The DS is low-maintenance feat-wise.
Charisma synergy (with Touch of Vitality, again). Another reason most of my Fighters/Rogues/Crusaders/Swordsages/Warblades/Barbarians will never take Imperious Command is because they simply don't have the 15 Charisma required.



More-over, how does it compare to, say, Zhentarim Soldier?
At least it uses its Charisma for something other than Intimidate. :smalltongue: More seriously, of course it isn't going to compare well to a build that dedicates all of its focus to intimidation. But it doesn't have to, since it's got other options going on.


Any time any class is reduced to using absolutely no class features and simply attacking with a weapon is very bad. Any class that does so on a regular basis is terribly designed.

Yes, this is a broad indictment of a lot of classes, but I stand by the statement.

That's a valid opinion, but not one I happen to share, since it's based on your prior condemnation of passive abilities in general. I think the DS is doing ok when it's just plunking away with no class features, since its class features are providing passive bonuses to all its allies all the while.

Perhaps I just have a higher opinion of DMs' ability to take passive features into account than you.

[Veyr]

The issue with DMs sort of "editing out" passive abilities is one issue, but not the entire picture. I do expect that most DMs are competent enough to avoid that trap, but it is a trap one needs to be aware of and avoid, which does make it a design issue.

It's more that the core mechanic does not give a character "tricks". The core mechanic handles basic attack forms, but no more. The system works well when you have additional options — spells, maneuvers, etc. — that interact with and add to this system. Classes that do not have such options, but instead only use the basic system, lack those kinds of "tricks", which really are an integral part of the game.

Here's why: by default, everyone can attack. That is the action that everyone can take, combat-wise. Every time you use a unique class feature that other directly modifies an attack, or does something instead of an attack, you are doing something beyond the usual rules. In effect, it's a form of specified, legalized cheating: you are doing something others cannot do.

Thus, the Wizard gets to cheat everytime he casts a spell, as do other spellcasters. The Martial Adept get to cheat everytime they use a maneuver, and Meldshapers when they use their melds.

In other words, classes like Dragon Shaman, Fighter, Monk, are all playing by the rules while everyone else is cheating. This is a major problem in game-design. The additional exploits of each class are a form of controlled cheating to allow you to be awesome and effective. Thus, they are forms of "cheating" that are expected and anticipated for within the rules.

But then if you cannot "cheat", then you are at a serious disadvantage. This is what I mean when I say it's poor design: it puts restrictions on those classes' flexibility because they are limited to the basic rules that other classes are not limited to.

[Darth Stabber]

If your gm is giving bonuses to monsters to counter your bonuses (especially from such a low tiered class) he is an *******. If you are a gm and you do this you are an *******. How about we make assumptions about classes based on how reasonable, non-***hats run a game. The everything gets bonuses because you do GM will pull some **** move to invalidate you. Oh, your a beguiler? Have fun fighting undead and constructs. Paladin? Jerkface on the other side of the table can cause you to fall because you saluted your superior officer wrong, and you are there for not lawful enough. Wizard? Better invest heavily in overcoming SR, because your going to need it every fight. "My GM is a jerk" is not a valid critisism of anything but your gm, and you for not quitting.

Is Dragon shaman a good class in a purely objective mechanical sense when compared to the rest of 3.5? No, it is a weak class with a niche in a few variant rulesets (namely gestalt and to a lesser extent e6). The class is very passive, except for one feature that is only usable approximately 1/encounter. It has 2 major dependencies (though I'm not sure if con really counts), and auras do not scale well. Does that make me leary of playing it if the right game came along? No. Is it a riot in gestalt? Absolutely. Is DFA just warlock and DS thrown into a blender and mixed with no finesse? Yeah.

If you use JaronK's teir based gesalt system, DS can be great, especially since it is really low feat maintenence, you can save your feats for improving your other classes hopefully more active shtick.

[Veyr]

If your gm is giving bonuses to monsters to counter your bonuses (especially from such a low tiered class) he is an *******. If you are a gm and you do this you are an *******. How about we make assumptions about classes based on how reasonable, non-***hats run a game.
I am explicitly talking about a subconscious and unintentional phenomenon, here, actually.

That said....

The everything gets bonuses because you do GM will pull some **** move to invalidate you. Oh, your a beguiler? Have fun fighting undead and constructs.
Lots of fun! Watch them stare in befuddlement as they cannot comprehend your illusions, and automatically fail all their saves! Whee!


Paladin? Jerkface on the other side of the table can cause you to fall because you saluted your superior officer wrong, and you are there for not lawful enough.
Can't argue with you there; the Paladin's another terribly designed class, for a number of reasons, but the Code and the Falling mechanic are probably chief among them.


Wizard? Better invest heavily in overcoming SR, because your going to need it every fight.
If you know it's coming, that's a completely non-issue. A Wizard can overcome SR, or even Spell Immunity, rather easily as long as he knows it's coming.


"My GM is a jerk" is not a valid critisism of anything but your gm, and you for not quitting.
I agree, but that's not what I was talking about.


Is Dragon shaman a good class in a purely objective mechanical sense when compared to the rest of 3.5? No, it is a weak class with a niche in a few variant rulesets (namely gestalt and to a lesser extent e6). The class is very passive, except for one feature that is only usable approximately 1/encounter. It has 2 major dependencies (though I'm not sure if con really counts), and auras do not scale well.
These are all true, but none of them is what I was talking about.


Does that make me leary of playing it if the right game came along? No.
OK, that's a personal preference...


Is it a riot in gestalt? Absolutely.
Gestalt's not really relevant for most games, I believe. That's kind of like calling the Factotum op because a Factotum 8//Wizard is even more broken than a Wizard is usually; that's true but it's only because of the peculiarity of gestalt.


Is DFA just warlock and DS thrown into a blender and mixed with no finesse? Yeah.
No, I'd argue it's not; the Dragon Shaman isn't really a part of the DfA in any appreciable way. Unless you mean "they both have a breath weapon", which is absurd since they're both getting that from the dragons who predate both. Much like the Swordsage didn't obsolete the Monk, the Dragonfire Adept did not obsolete the Dragon Shaman, because it was already obsolete.


If you use JaronK's teir based gesalt system, DS can be great, especially since it is really low feat maintenence, you can save your feats for improving your other classes hopefully more active shtick.
This is an argument I will accept, but see what I said about gestalt and then magnify it about eight-fold.

[Grendus]

Ah. Well, perhaps I'm being a curmudgeon, but I'd say that text applies only to the aura(s) you get from the Draconic Aura feat(s), and not to auras gained from the Dragon Shaman class. Plus it also says the bonus improves with your class level, not character level... Wait, that doesn't make any sense. :smallconfused:

The fluff text on Draconic Auras suggests that the feat auras and the class auras are the same thing. It is a little iffy though, basically Dragon Magic is adding in new rules for the auras. While I'm not sure what their intention is, convincing a DM to let you gain scaling auras for a one level dip and a feat (or a template, or a draconic race) might be tough, convincing him to let you pick up one as an invocation could be easier, especially since auras are fairly lackluster to begin with (maybe as a lesser invocation, or scaling based on the level of invocation slot you spend). You could also try to homebrew up a feat that lets you stack your dragon shaman and dragonfire adept levels for aura strength and fire breath damage, similar to the dual progression feats in Complete Scoundrel.

[Greenish]

Really? Interesting.Shamans are about licking toads and sampling questionable mushrooms, then communicating with the spirits. :smalltongue:

If you've got an malicious spirit haunting you and causing you problems (such as illness), yeah, the shaman can give a hand.

If you've been stabbed, well, you're out of luck.


And again, I'm not claiming that DS is a strong option in high-op games. Just that it's quite viable in other games.And, I believe, Veyr isn't arguing that DS is weak (which we all agree on), but that it's poorly designed. I agree with him, having no relevant class features for pretty much anything is pretty bad. I'd rather play an expert, at least I'd have skills.


Interesting idea. I'll have to muse on that one. Like several of your other suggestions, it's missing the Knowledge (nature) and Survival that I think are key to a Shaman concept.DS doesn't have Survival, except for few specific dragons. In fact, Know (Nature) is just about the only shaman-y skill DS have.


Is DFA just warlock and DS thrown into a blender and mixed with no finesse?Nah. DS is just a poorly re-skinned Marshal with some dragon-fluff thrown in. :smalltongue: