How to deal with CR 1 leeches.

[isotunknown]

The DM beat the crap out of us last night, without even trying. We're in a low-level aquatic adventure that is requiring a lot of in and out of the water. We lost most of the party to a school of oceanic leech-like creatures (the DM swears they are a CR 1 and there were six of us, all second level), which according to the local bar keep are quite common in these parts (we actually feigned fear in an obvious manner when he told us about them).

Anyway, what the hell are we supposed to do about them, when we'll have to keep getting in and out of the water to accomplish this adventure?

First, we didn't even know we were being attacked by them until it was too late. Before we knew it we were covered in them. They seem to suck constitution, cause damage, cause nausea (which is not good when you're trying to swim or defend yourself), disrupt spell casting, and affect the ability to swim. The only surviving party member (who was rescued, near death) is in considerable pain, has swollen up, turned crimson, and is feeling like crap. The rescuers are call the condition, "crimson death", and are trying to get some help for the remaining character, who only wishes he were dead.

Any advice?

[theForce017]

I don't know what else to say besides, "That really sucks and good luck" but I found a Giant Leech monster in Stormwrack that seems to do everything you mentioned and officially, a single one of these creatures is a CR 1/3. If he had a lot of them which is sounds like, this could have gone up very rapidly. They can only do 6 points of Con per leech but that would added up very quickly as well.

Stormwrack p. 154

[Big Fau]

Pump your Spot check. They have a +9 bonus, and are easier to detect each round they are on you.

As for protecting yourself from the Con damage, the most efficient methods require a feat or a level dip (Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest, or Binder 1 respectively). A Rod of Bodily Restoration (MiC) will provide a means of healing the damage.

[isotunknown]

I'll check out Stormwrack. The DM did say they were WoTC published creatures.

The things were very small--I'm not sure the word "Giant" applies in any sense of the word. No weapons could really hit them because the school seemed to be swarming around us and attached to us, but we didn't even notice they were there until it was too late. It was horrible. Massacred by leeches?

I mean, there has to be a way for 6 level-2 characters to deal with CR 1 or CR 1/3 creatures, right?

If there is, we're not seeing it.

[theForce017]

It does look like there is a swarm of leeches on page 162 of Stormwrack that I didn't see the first time but they do very similar things in regards of disease and Con damage.

These ones are a CR 1 and Immune to Weapon Damage.

[isotunknown]

That sounds more like it. Is there nothing that can be done?

[The Glyphstone]

Aoe damage?

[isotunknown]

Aoe damage?

What would you suggest for 2nd level characters? (Preferably something that won't kill us while the things are attached to us.)

[jmelesky]

The things were very small--I'm not sure the word "Giant" applies in any sense of the word. No weapons could really hit them because the school seemed to be swarming around us and attached to us, but we didn't even notice they were there until it was too late. It was horrible. Massacred by leeches?

If you're having trouble spotting them in the first place, a Purify Food and Drink spell should make the water you're in clear enough to deny them any situational advantages to Hide.

If you're having trouble hurting them, that's a different story. I remember in earlier editions that the spell Shocking Grasp had a specific exception for when it was cast underwater -- it would turn into a small AoE burst (centered around you). That wording didn't make it into 3ed or later, to my knowledge, but check with your GM to see if he'd allow it.

Any other AoE spell or effect (Burning Hands, flask of acid, etc.) should do damage, too.

[Fineous Orlon]

I'll check out Stormwrack. The DM did say they were WoTC published creatures.

The things were very small--I'm not sure the word "Giant" applies in any sense of the word. No weapons could really hit them because the school seemed to be swarming around us and attached to us, but we didn't even notice they were there until it was too late. It was horrible. Massacred by leeches?

I mean, there has to be a way for 6 level-2 characters to deal with CR 1 or CR 1/3 creatures, right?

If there is, we're not seeing it.

Gather Info to find out how the locals avoid them when they HAVE to go into the water, if they have repellant, are there any folklore signs of an impending attack, and how they cure those afflicted.

Applying 'swarm' to leeches could be really nasty.

For 4 characters... [I realize you had 6]

5 to 6 CR 1/3 creatures are an EL of 2, it looks like to me, 7-9 of CR 1/3 are an EL 3, and more would be worse.

Maybe the encounter was too tough by numbers alone.

[Odin the Ignoble]

Large amounts of salt. Cigarette butts?

[isotunknown]

If you're having trouble spotting them in the first place, a Purify Food and Drink spell should make the water you're in clear enough to deny them any situational advantages to Hide.
The bodies of water here are huge. It's true we're by the shore, but the amount of water is well beyond measuring in gallons.


If you're having trouble hurting them, that's a different story. I remember in earlier editions that the spell Shocking Grasp had a specific exception for when it was cast underwater -- it would turn into a small AoE burst (centered around you). That wording didn't make it into 3ed or later, to my knowledge, but check with your GM to see if he'd allow it. That might work, but I'd worry about casting that spell in water I was in.


Any other AoE spell or effect (Burning Hands, flask of acid, etc.) should do damage, too. I'm not sure how fire spells work underwater, even if we could detect the creatures. Do you know? I think the acid would likely be overwhelmed by the surrounding water. But maybe magical fire would work.



Gather Info to find out how the locals avoid them when they HAVE to go into the water, if they have repellant, are there any folklore signs of an impending attack, and how they cure those afflicted.

That's a great idea. I wonder if the DM will have to make something up.


Applying 'swarm' to leeches could be really nasty.

For 4 characters... [I realize you had 6]

5 to 6 CR 1/3 creatures are an EL of 2, it looks like to me, 7-9 of CR 1/3 are an EL 3, and more would be worse.

Maybe the encounter was too tough by numbers alone.

I would say it was more likely a swarm that some kind of giant leaches. They were really small.


Has anyone successfully dealt with these little buggers?

[Tokiko Mima]

If you're rolling new characters, consider Dragonfire Adept w/ the Entangling Exhalation feat (RoD) and the Aquatic invocation option. You will be your groups tank effectively (high AC would be ideal, if you can), as your breath will initiate a lockdown on nearby monsters and your teammates get to beat down your enemies safely. You'll be fantastically effective on swarms, and still great for most everything else.

[Glimbur]

This is a bit more unconventional, but there has to be something that eats the leeches. If you could acquire a school of fish and drop them in the water near the leeches that might help you out.

[Laendri]

Buy a big bloody pig or sumthing they will want to eat. Fill it with poison. Done.



(Or pay sum1 to cast stoneskin, barkskin or some DR spell on the group)

[NNescio]

Leeches are vermin right?

Vermin Ointment, Secrets of Xendrik, Page 139. Costs 20 gp and prevents vermin of diminutive size or smaller from coming within 5 feet of your character.

(Ointments don't get washed away that easily in water. Some divers in real life do put on sunscreen, after all.)

[El Dorado]

If have a summoner type, try conjuring porpoises or octopi. Might help take some of the heat off the party.

[Big Fau]

Leeches are vermin right?

Vermin Ointment, Secrets of Xendrik, Page 139. Costs 20 gp and prevents vermin of diminutive size or smaller from coming within 5 feet of your character.

(Ointments don't get washed away that easily in water. Some divers in real life do put on sunscreen, after all.)

This is pretty much the best bet if you don't want to build a specific character to combat a swarm. But it's strange for a party to not have an AoE spell or item, even at ECL 2.


Checking the Leech Swarm's stats, I can understand how you weren't able to beat it. +16 to Hide checks, AC 18 (across the board)... How the hell does a swarm have a higher Hide check than the base creature anyway?

[isotunknown]

If you're rolling new characters, consider Dragonfire Adept w/ the Entangling Exhalation feat (RoD) and the Aquatic invocation option. You will be your groups tank effectively (high AC would be ideal, if you can), as your breath will initiate a lockdown on nearby monsters and your teammates get to beat down your enemies safely. You'll be fantastically effective on swarms, and still great for most everything else.

I'll have to check into that. I've never played a DA before, but I'm game. I also hadn't heard of that feat.


This is pretty much the best bet if you don't want to build a specific character to combat a swarm. But it's strange for a party to not have an AoE spell or item, even at ECL 2.

Which spell or item were you thinking we should have had. I imagine that there is some item, like the vermin ointment mentioned above, that had we known we'd need we might have purchased, if possible. Which AoE spell do you think would be most helpful to us? Which item did you have in mind?


Checking the Leech Swarm's stats, I can understand how you weren't able to beat it. +16 to Hide checks, AC 18 (across the board)... How the hell does a swarm have a higher Hide check than the base creature anyway? I still haven't gotten my hands on a copy of Stormwrack, but I shall. I'm sure we have the right critters, given what people have said. I just think if these swarms are not a rarity, we're not going to be able to finish this adventure in 1 piece.

[veven]

Buy a big bloody pig or sumthing they will want to eat. Fill it with poison. Done.



(Or pay sum1 to cast stoneskin, barkskin or some DR spell on the group)

This is brilliant. Even if it is not cost effective, please do it just for the story.

[Tvtyrant]

Or cast Glitterdust and blind them all; the party is much more likely to make the saves then the leeches are. Or cast Summon Swarm and let the swarm deal with them :P

[Flickerdart]

Or cast Glitterdust and blind them all; the party is much more likely to make the saves then the leeches are. Or cast Summon Swarm and let the swarm deal with them :P
2nd level characters don't have access to 2nd level spells - though I guess they could get a Warlock for the appropriate invocation. Battle of the swarms! Quite exciting.

[NNescio]

2nd level characters don't have access to 2nd level spells - though I guess they could get a Warlock for the appropriate invocation. Battle of the swarms! Quite exciting.

Uh... none of the summonable swarms are aquatic.

[Tvtyrant]

Uh... none of the summonable swarms are aquatic.

By the time the spiders use up their breathe they would be unsummoned anyways; so the point doesn't alter it :P

[Absol197]

Or cast Glitterdust and blind them all; the party is much more likely to make the saves then the leeches are. Or cast Summon Swarm and let the swarm deal with them :P

While an interesting idea, please note: leeches are naturally blind. Glitterdust won't have much of an effect on them...

[NNescio]

While an interesting idea, please note: leeches are naturally blind. Glitterdust won't have much of an effect on them...

Well, it'll nuke their Hide checks. Which wouldn't help...much... unless there's only a small pool of water.

[Absol197]

Well, it'll nuke their Hide checks. Which wouldn't help...much... unless there's only a small pool of water.

Ah, right. Forgot about that aspect of glitterdust. It's never actually been used in any game I've been in...

[NNescio]

IIRC, Masters of the Wild has some low-level anti-vermin feats and spells for druids and rangers. It's a 3.0 supplement though.

There's one called Vermin Defiance or some-such which allows a druid to turn vermin like a cleric turning undead.

[Absol197]

On a more helpful note from me, a scroll of repel vermin only costs 700 gp. That might be a bit expensive for a 2nd-level character, but since the entire party would benefit, if you pool funds, you could probably get a couple for when you have no choice but to go in the water.

At the standard caster level, they last for an hour and 10 minutes; more than enough time to do whatever you're attempting, I should think.

[Rei_Jin]

That Leech Swarm does look nasty, but it also looks to be the zombie of the water... ie, swim away from it at any decent speed, and you're fine. They only have 10ft swim speed, meaning that they could at most sprint 40ft in the water in one round. If you have a land speed of 30ft, you should be able to stay away from them without issue.

[Canarr]

If you can see them in time to flee them... but with Hide +16 at 2nd lvl, that's doubtful.

I'd suggest going with the "do some background research on them". Maybe there's leech repellant for sale in every fishing village for 1sp a pop; I mean, sea villages make their living from, well, the sea, so they should have *some* ideas for dealing with a threat that generally eats anything going into the water.

Have your GM work a bit for his kills. Do they only live in shallow water? Or in deep water? Do they come out during high tide, low tide, or both? What do they normally eat? What does normally eat them? If these creatures are part of the sea's regular eco system, then they have a natural place in that system, and the local people should know that place.

[Big Fau]

That Leech Swarm does look nasty, but it also looks to be the zombie of the water... ie, swim away from it at any decent speed, and you're fine. They only have 10ft swim speed, meaning that they could at most sprint 40ft in the water in one round. If you have a land speed of 30ft, you should be able to stay away from them without issue.

The water is considered difficult terrain to creatures that don't have a swim speed, and using the Swim skill means you are slow as hell. That swarm is more dangerous than it looks.

The really bad news? Stormwrack and Sandstorm were never Errata'd. This swarm looks like a CR4 or higher, even with 7HP.

[Tokiko Mima]

I'll have to check into that. I've never played a DA before, but I'm game. I also hadn't heard of that feat.

It's a very evil feat at low levels, and it remains solid for many levels. Though you do halve your initial damage, the 1d4 extra rounds of 1d6 damage more than make up for it until levels eight to ten or so. Entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) is also a fairly nasty condition that both lowers attack bonus and lowers Dex (and therefore AC) and movement speed rather dramatically. And it's not a metabreath feat, and you qualify for dragonblood subtype regardless of race via the Dragontouched feat you got for free at DFA level 1.

Not to mention the Aquatic Adaption invocation allowing you to (a) breathe water, (b) Use your breathe weapon normally underwater and (c) gain a Swim speed equal to your land speed. You can now run circles (without bothering with constant Swim checks, I might add) around the leeches, who burn to death is two rounds or less (on average) and have their speed dropped down to 5ft, enough that your friends making Swim checks can outswim them in a pinch.

Not to mention that Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon mechanic is based on saving throws, so the only way to avoid entanglement from you is via Evasion or Mettle type effects combined with a successful saving throw. Anything else will do the bare minimum damage to begin the tangled web of a slow burn to death.

A bit of extra advice; if you play this character, you might want to bring along a bunch of extra d4's to use as markers so you can keep track of who is burning and for how many more rounds. It can get confusing.

[Darrin]

Uh... none of the summonable swarms are aquatic.

The rats should have a swim speed (the rat swarm technically doesn't, but the base creature does). You can summon non-aquatic creatures into an aquatic environment as long as you have an open 10' square and a stable platform for them to stand on. Given the wonky drowning rules, the rats are unlikely to run out of air before the summon spell duration expires. By RAW, the rats attack the nearest creature rather than go up for air.

I'd consider stocking up on some potions of babau slime. If you don't notice the leech and it touches you, it takes 1d8 acid damage for its trouble. Two rounds of acid damage should kill the leech swarm. The duration is only 1 minute/level, but you could cast it into a Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC p. 161) and trigger it to any vermin-type within 5'.

The leeches get a +16 hide bonus entirely by virtue of their size (+4 per size category smaller than medium). It sounds like the leeches are already considered to be hidden, but from a rules standpoint they can't technically hide unless they have cover or concealment with respect to the observer. I'm not sure you'll have much luck arguing with the DM over what kind of concealment the leaches are using... a faerie fire effect, such as the spell or via Torch Bug Paste (25 GP, Complete Scoundrel p. 120) negates all concealment and would thus prevent a Hide check, but I'm not sure how the rules would handle something that has already successfully hidden. While glitterdust might not blind the leeches (the stat block doesn't mention anything about vision or lack of eyes), it does confer a -40 penalty on Hide checks, so that would make them very easy to spot. Glitter stones (450 GP, MIC p. 161) don't blind but do have the -40 Hide penalty.

To detect the leeches, I'd probably try something with magic mouth triggered to say something if it spots any leeches. Technically, the magic mouth doesn't make any Spot checks, so unless the leeches are using magical darkness, illusions, invisibility, or disguise, it should auto-detect anything in visual range.

[ShriekingDrake]

How about the druid and Wiz/Sorc Babau Slime spell? It would do 1d8 to any leech that attaches. It's a first level spell. Not a typical choice, but worth it in this context. A lot of those leeches should die upon touch you.

[isotunknown]

That might work pretty well. At least it might kill them before we take too much damage.

[El Dorado]

Do have to combat them or is it enough to be able to get by them? A druid with a porpoise animal companion would be an effective guard. Porpoises have blindsight out to 120 feet so the leeches hide bonuses would be useless.

[isotunknown]

Do have to combat them or is it enough to be able to get by them? A druid with a porpoise animal companion would be an effective guard. Porpoises have blindsight out to 120 feet so the leeches hide bonuses would be useless.

That's another great idea.

It's amazing how much work is having to go into protecting against leeches with such a low CR. They have to be underrated.

[overture2112]

It's amazing how much work is having to go into protecting against leeches with such a low CR. They have to be underrated.

To be fair, CR doesn't really factor in the home advantage and that underwater combat is rough for most player characters.

[isotunknown]

Really? I hadn't thought of it that way. I agree that these creatures would be much easier to deal with on land, but the aquatic nature doesn't do everything here. I think they're definitely underrated.

Moreover, I'm not sure why we shouldn't include the aquatic aspects in our assessment of CR, especially when the spells that would deal with these creatures on land are useless in the water.

I'm not sold on your "fairness" posture, especially when CR is supposed to be a guide for GMs to establish the encounter level. My GM probably thought they'd be an interesting diversion before considering that it was an encounter significantly beyond our capabilities. He just looked at the CR and thought, they look tough, but how bad could they be at a 1 CR.

The idea that you have to play specific characters and take uncommon spells or use uncommon items to deal with a 1 CR creature seems a bit out of balance, "to be fair."

[Dr.Epic]

Same way you deal with 'taters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihMMw0rnKz4).

[Tvtyrant]

Really? I hadn't thought of it that way. I agree that these creatures would be much easier to deal with on land, but the aquatic nature doesn't do everything here. I think they're definitely underrated.

Moreover, I'm not sure why we shouldn't include the aquatic aspects in our assessment of CR, especially when the spells that would deal with these creatures on land are useless in the water.

I'm not sold on your "fairness" posture, especially when CR is supposed to be a guide for GMs to establish the encounter level. My GM probably thought they'd be an interesting diversion before considering that it was an encounter significantly beyond our capabilities. He just looked at the CR and thought, they look tough, but how bad could they be at a 1 CR.

The idea that you have to play specific characters and take uncommon spells or use uncommon items to deal with a 1 CR creature seems a bit out of balance, "to be fair."
Out of combat they would be easily visible and you could literally walk away from them due to their move rate. You could also spam spells that debuff like Color Spray, which would knock a 15 ft. cone of them unconscious. Or Grease the ground and walk away, since they are never going to make their balance checks. Or Hypnotize them, or Entangle them, or Bane them to make them really weak.

The water thing is important because it makes ambush much more likely, and they can come from below instead of having to work in a 2D environment like you are.

[ShriekingDrake]

They'd be a LOT easier to deal with on land. On land, a torch would solve a lot of your problems. The water environment here clearly makes a solid difference.

That said, even on land, myself, I'd still bump up the CR. As they are now, I don't think I'd sick them on a party of less than 4 or 5.

[NNescio]

Out of combat they would be easily visible and you could literally walk away from them due to their move rate. You could also spam spells that debuff like Color Spray, which would knock a 15 ft. cone of them unconscious. Or Grease the ground and walk away, since they are never going to make their balance checks. Or Hypnotize them, or Entangle them, or Bane them to make them really weak.

The water thing is important because it makes ambush much more likely, and they can come from below instead of having to work in a 2D environment like you are.

Color Spray is Mind-affecting. Leeches are mindless.

Color Spray also does not affect sightless creatures.

[Tvtyrant]

Color Spray is Mind-affecting. Leeches are mindless.

Color Spray also does not affect sightless creatures.

doesn't change the fact that most AoE spells would trounce them; especially a Druid with Entangle.

[NNescio]

doesn't change the fact that most AoE spells would trounce them; especially a Druid with Entangle.

I'm just objecting to that particular example. You seem to be forgetting the leeches' immunities quite often, as seen by the Glitterdust example you provided earlier.

Hypnotize and Bane also do not work, incidentally.

But yeah, most swarms are particularly vulnerable to AoEs, even the ones that don't deal damage.

[Mauther]

I'd try and see if the shocking grasp to water would work. There's not many other damage AoE's available to casters with access only to 1st level spells. Burning hands, usually a nice fall back is gonna be pretty difficult since it will require a Spellcraft DC 21.

Not to be too snippy, but have you considered getting a boat? Even a small raft, something small enough to portage overland but big enough to keep you out of water. When you do go into the water, make constant checks for the leeches. Their hide skill is based on their hiding in nature, and their anesthetic ability once attached. But I think the rules make it pretty easy to locate them by 3rd party inspection.

[overture2112]

Moreover, I'm not sure why we shouldn't include the aquatic aspects in our assessment of CR, especially when the spells that would deal with these creatures on land are useless in the water.

I'm not sold on your "fairness" posture, especially when CR is supposed to be a guide for GMs to establish the encounter level....He just looked at the CR and thought, they look tough, but how bad could they be at a 1 CR.

The idea that you have to play specific characters and take uncommon spells or use uncommon items to deal with a 1 CR creature seems a bit out of balance, "to be fair."

I agree.

There's not nearly enough content for countering the disadvantages of water combat and most players build for land encounters so the CR seems low, but really it's just a more objective rather than relative measure of difficulty.

Relative difficulty is what you want, but it's too situational to just stamp on the monster and call it a day. For example:

1) A gang of 3x CR1/4 Kobolds. Trivial in a straight up fight and the CR agrees. In fact, the CR overrates them.

2) What if they attack in the middle of the night while most of the party is sleeping and only 1-2 are keeping watch? They stand a fair chance of killing a party member and then running away (and stand to repeat such hit and run tactics in the future). The CR underrates this encounter.

3) What they're hired assassins and one is a Lv1 spellcaster or they were fronted money for a single use item to cast Silent Image, Silence, or a number of other low level spells? The CR is marginally higher but it will almost certainly result in a TPK, thus massively underrates the encounter's difficulty.

[Mauther]

Well the DMG does advise to adjust both the CR and EL for situational and terrain advantages that disproportationally effect one side or the other.

[isotunknown]

I agree, as well.

There really just isn't much in the way of AoE spells that work in the aquatic environment at this level that will work against these creatures. Our problem is that we're required, it seems, to get in and out of the water, and to engage in some tasks in the water that cannot be done from our boat.

For the moment, we're going to try the porpoise and Babau Slime route. The barkeep indicated that these leeches were not uncommon.

I must admit, I'd now like to draft a spell to address this situation. Something like "Scatter Swarm" a spell that scatters a swarm for a 1-4 rounds to give you a chance to get away. That strikes me as a first (or even zero level) spell. But that's another thread in another forum.

[overture2112]

Well the DMG does advise to adjust both the CR and EL for situational and terrain advantages that disproportationally effect one side or the other.

Exactly, thus the need for the DM to have a somewhat-objective and situation agnostic CR to reference when determining the situational CR.

This not being clearly stated nor, I assume, always followed in source books is the cause for many claims of under/over rating mobs.

[NNescio]

Exactly, thus the need for the DM to have a somewhat-objective and situation agnostic CR to reference when determining the situational CR.

This not being clearly stated nor, I assume, always followed in source books is the cause for many claims of under/over rating mobs.

MM II is a notable offender.

[ShriekingDrake]

I have another thought. Produce Flame might work. You'd have to make a spellcraft check to make it operate underwater, but it might harm the swarm pursuant to the rules. I suppose,if that would work, the ability to produce a flame with Prestidigitation might also work. I don't know.

Produce Flame explicitly does not work underwater.