Looking forward to Belkar's death?

[The Anarresti]

I've been seeing so many people on the forums saying how they love Belkar, how he shouldn't die, or even trying to rationalize how he wouldn't actually die.
Is anyone else looking forward to him dying? From a comedic standpoint, he's starting to run a little stale. From a character standpoint, he needs his comeuppance! He's a cocky psychopath, and I'd love to see that silly smirk wiped off his face. He does horrible things, and yet he still gets away with it. He is CE to the core... only his ADHD and fear of Roy stop him from doing more damage than he already does, and he does a lot of damage already.
So is anyone else looking forward to Belkar dying?

[TroubleBrewing]

Not particularly. I rather enjoy watching the half-pint murder machine do his thing. :smalltongue:

[Lither]

Short answer?

Yes.

I've wanted this to happen for a long time.

[Tanngrisnir]

I'm looking forward to him dying. It is true that I am sick of him as a character, but really I want him to die, and soon, so that we can see the rest of the OOTS reactions to a party member death. Even if it is only the party member no one really likes.

[Chobarth]

Absolutely not! The cocky little bastard never gets old to me - he remains 'comedy gold' as he mentioned in #610. He isn't transforming, but he is evolving and the pseudo-character growth is interesting. How does his play-acting turn out? How many good acts for the sake of greater evil is he capable of doing without actually sliding towards CN? (which he would self-correct, but with what kind of atrocity?) What happens when he is faced with tough choices within his new algorithm?

Everyone is welcome to their own opinions - my vote for OotS member I'd be happy to see die would be Elan. His death would effect the group and story much more than Belkar's ever could. But outside the Snarl its unreasonable - Haley (or even Roy if he felt responsible) would have him raised. Hell, Tarquin would probably raise him as well.

So I'm not looking forward to Belkar's death. But if happens I have absolute faith in the Giant to make it a good arc and for the strip to continue with its high quality. Plus I'm biased - I started this strip in 2004 and read 41 episodes that day... my first 'wait for it' strip? #42, which was a Belkar solo adventure. (Bonus coincidence, V froze Elan solid in #41 for being a cretin.)

[Scrynor]

I love Belkar. I doubt I'd even still be reading the strip without him.

That said, yeah, I'm looking forward to his death because I think it'll be awesome. As long as it is something with ramifications (be it with the snarl, him unveiling his true evilness, something involving V and his potentially shifting alignments, whatever).

If he just randomly dies to YukYuk trying to save his cat or some crap and there are no greater tie-ins to character development I'll be upset. Actually, I'll be a little upset if he ends up dying a good guy in general. I never took his development arc to mean he's becoming good but rather that he needs to do a better job of pretending to be good and fitting in.

[Talya]

Anything that blatantly prophesied is always misleading.

Anyway, Belkar is by far the biggest reason I even read this comic, so no. The rest of the party is fairly boring, except maybe Elan.

[Dienekes]

Yes and no.

I love Belkar, he's a hilarious sociopathic murderer. He is consistently hilarious in my opinion, even more so than Elan.

However it's been built up so much, I really want to see what the Giant has in mind. I hope we get to see a few more gems from the sexy shoeless god of war before he snuffs it. But I want to see how he snuffs it.

[Rasputin]

I love the strip in general, but NO I don't want Belkar to be gone forever (oddly I'm okay with him dying, I'm sure the Giant has something up his sleeve).

I enjoy Belkar more than anyone else in the entire strip.

[Stormwolf]

I'm fairly ambivalent towards Belkar and I don't mind when or how he dies, so long as it advances the plot... however I will be glad that it will bring an end to threads on how long it has been since the oracle predicted his death ;)

[Mystic Muse]

Yes, I am looking forward to his death.

[TriForce]

absolutly not. aside from the fact that i like belkar as a character, i also consider it a dumb idea to announce the death of a main character so blatantly and so far before it happens. if rich changed his mind in the past 2 years or so hes stuck with his own damn prophecy.

also, i consider people who "want belkars comeuppance" to take it a bit too serieusly, oots is still a comic with a lot of humor in it, and a evil character like belkar makes for some of the best jokes in the entire webcomic, same story as xykon, except from a protagonist point of vieuw

[dps]

I'm fairly ambivalent towards Belkar and I don't mind when or how he dies, so long as it advances the plot... however I will be glad that it will bring an end to threads on how long it has been since the oracle predicted his death ;)

Amen to that!

[Alagaesian]

Yes, I am looking forward to his death. It's just like I'm looking forward to all the other prophecies coming true.

I want to see Xykon attacking Girard's Gate. Knowing the Giant, there will probably be another big battle scene, and I love the action and drama that the battle scenes with Xykon tend to create.

I'm not connected to the characters, but I am connected to what they do. Belkar stabs things, and Durkon will always be that straight-laced dwarf, but neither of them are really doing much with regards to the story right now. The other four members are doing something to advance the plot - Elan is saving Haley, V is buying him some time, and Roy is duking it out with Thog. Belkar and Durkon are essentially in the background right now.

But, these two characters have potential. Belkar has something going on with his cat and alignment, and Durkon is studying that mysterious spell and getting closer to Malak. Playing around with either of these can add drama, action, and comedy to the comic. Belkar can save Mr. Scruffy from Yuk Yuk, or crush that kobold's skull for killing his pet. Durkon can use that spell to save/end someone's life, or accomplish another plot objective.

Yes, watching these two die would bring more drama, and also some action because something has to come along to kill them. But, killing Belkar right now would ruin all his potential if he can't get raised. All the threads Belkar has going with his (not so?) pseudo alignment shift, his cat, and his role within the party have more room to develop. It's going to take more than a handful of strips for Belkar to achieve his full potential as a living character before he dies.

So, yes, I am looking forward to his death, but I don't want to see it nearly so soon as some people claim it is going to be. However, Durkon still has the ability to get raised. He can go ahead and die.

[Trazoi]

I'm not sure I'm "looking forward" to it, but it has to happen. I disliked Belkar back when his main shtick was he's evil and he kills things, but I don't mind the new "team-player" Belkar so much. But weaseling out of killing Belkar now will be a massive cop-out. He's got to go.

[EpilepticWombat]

Well. I don't dislike him. And I sure as hell am entertained by him. But I tend to root for characters like him to get some kind of comeuppance, even if they're entertaining, and even if I like them. Death might be a bit much, but I'm okay with it. Honestly I was never very invested in his newly found character arc and the whole Mr. Scruffy thing does little for me, most of the time.

Mostly I'm looking forward to the ripple effect the death of a main character would cause.

[The Pilgrim]

Yes

Since Book 1

[Warren Dew]

I've been looking forward to Belkar dying ever since it was prophesied. I've been disappointed for a long time, so I'm not getting my hopes up.

[IronWilliam]

Before I would have been looking foreword to his death, but since his character development began I've kind of liked him.

[Chobarth]

Before I would have been looking foreword to his death, but since his character development began I've kind of liked him.

He isn't HAVING any character growth!! He is pretending to have it... His new shtick is even working on living people outside the strip. Thats pretty amazing, considering you were all privy to the behind the scenes bits of his vision-quest. He is up to no-good dressed up in faux-good.

[Trazoi]

He isn't HAVING any character growth!! He is pretending to have it... His new shtick is even working on living people outside the strip. Thats pretty amazing, considering you were all privy to the behind the scenes bits of his vision-quest. He is up to no-good dressed up in faux-good.
I disagree. For Belkar, pretending to have character growth was a moment of actual character growth. :smalltongue:

[Chobarth]

I disagree. For Belkar, pretending to have character growth was a moment of actual character growth. :smalltongue:

Okay, I admit thats a fair point. Thanks Trazoi. Even probably more than just that moment.

I continue to deny that he is undergoing the type of positive growth and advancement that so many on these boards assume. THAT he is faking - the faking itself, and how convincingly he can pull it off, that is the more fundamental character growth Belkar is experiencing.

If Iron William was referencing Belkar's evil growth than I stand corrected. I took it to be his 'good' growth.

[ArcaneSaint]

Did the oracle actually prophetize (if that's a word) Belkar's death? the only thing I know he said while in "oracle trance" was he'd draw his last breath ever before the end of the year. He never explicitly used the word "death". Why, he did say that word while out of trance, but we already saw that he doesn't always speak the truth while not trancing. Like those excuses he gave Belkar about which deaths he caused, afterwards he said he didn't believe them himself. And it makes perfect sense for Belkar not to fund the Irish Republican army (IRA), I don't see why they'd need an oracle to tell them that.

Though, he might die, he might live. We'll never know until the next new year celebration. Or if someone gains the ability to travel through time* and tell us how it ended. But I trust the Giant to make it something Epic, whether Belkar lives or dies. I'm looking forward to the reveal, not the dead or survival, but to the way the Giant will reveal it to us.

*To time-traveller(s): please send me a PM with a link to screenshots of all future comics!:smallbiggrin:

[martianmister]

And it makes perfect sense for Belkar not to fund the Irish Republican army (IRA), I don't see why they'd need an oracle to tell them that.[/SIZE]

That was my first assumption as well. :smallbiggrin: But Rich means that. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Retirement_Account)

[ArcaneSaint]

Are you sure? He could also refer to Ira, the Polynesian goddess of the sky and mother of the stars! Or the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, or the Indian Rights Association, or the....[the list goes on]. Though, I don't think Belkar is the kind of person with a retirement plan.

[martianmister]

Are you sure?

It makes more sense in the context. And "his Irish Republican Army" doesn't make any sense in the context.


Though, I don't think Belkar is the kind of person with a retirement plan.

It's figure of speech and means he will die, so he doesn't need "his IRA" after all...

[Pheehelm]

Of course I am! Regardless of how much I like or dislike the character, I know it'll be a great moment when he does go down. Remember Miko? Roy? Therkla?

[Origomar]

not sure why anyone doesnt assume that the prophet is lieing in some way shape or form.

remember when he predicted that belkar would cause the death of certain people? that was technically correct, but its not what anyone thought.

for example, belkar as we know him could be dead(character growth leads into a new personality, effectively making him a different person). im not saying thats the answer, but still.

[Delcor]

not sure why anyone doesnt assume that the prophet is lieing in some way shape or form.

remember when he predicted that belkar would cause the death of certain people? that was technically correct, but its not what anyone thought.

for example, belkar as we know him could be dead(character growth leads into a new personality, effectively making him a different person). im not saying thats the answer, but still.

I like the way you think and agree ^

I hate arrogant people that cause pain/suffering to others as a result of stupid choices. But Belkar's chracter is done so well that it makes him hilarious and add comedy that keeps me reading.

I don't think the argument of if he has or has not had chracter development is a good one because I think its more important that he has potential to have chracter development.

If he does end up dead I hope its epic, and not permanent.

[Francis Davey]

In a very complex way - and related to what others say - yes.

I like Belkar's role in the comic (to me all the OOTS are an important part of the mix) and I would miss his unique voice if he weren't there. His dying may or may not mean we don't hear from him any more. I am slightly nervous about that, but have to trust that Rich knows exactly what he's doing and will make whatever happens work well. I have liked all the comic so far, so that's likely on past experience.

However, not everyone likes Belkar - fair enough, tastes vary, though it must be a shame not to like one of the main characters. What does grate are the people who don't like Belkar because he's bad/nasty etc and seem to be expressing an opinion not about his role in the comic but about his moral status as an individual. In other words: we hope he dies because he's a bad person who ought to.

Now, whenever discussion of what will happen to Belkar comes up (and I agree that that is way too much), a chorus of "I hope the little <nasty person> bites it" starts to appear, which really adds nothing to the forums and wears my patience thin after a while.

So, if he dies then, whatever else might happen, at least I won't have to keep putting up with that. I'll be sorry if the death is pointless in plot terms and eliminates Belkar from then on, but I doubt that Rich would throw away a main character quite like that. Either way, the forums will improve.

[Niknokitueu]

I, personally, cannot wait to see Belkar die.

Not because I don't like him - I find the evil little git to be a refreshing change of pace from what would otherwise risk becoming a plodding story line.

Not because he deserves to die - there are many other 'beings' in the OotS-iverse that deserve death as much, of not more so.

I want to see him die just to see how much Rich is going to mess with us. Our hopes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitle9rtxkf3o), our fears (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilerThanThou), our misconceptions (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeadAllAlong). I just wanna see it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigYes)!

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Delcor]

I would like to say to all the people that think "hes evil/rude/CE to the core" you need to realize that if he was truly the heartless bastard everyone says, he would have joined team evil, there is something deep inside him keeping him from going completely insane and i think there is more good in him than people give him credit, and therefore, hope he stays alive

[FujinAkari]

I would like to say to all the people that think "hes evil/rude/CE to the core" you need to realize that if he was truly the heartless bastard everyone says, he would have joined team evil, there is something deep inside him keeping him from going completely insane and i think there is more good in him than people give him credit, and therefore, hope he stays alive

... you do remember his evil is measured in KILONAZI's, right? Thats pretty well the definition of 'evil to the core' :P

[Niknokitueu]

... you do remember his evil is measured in KILONAZI's, right? Thats pretty well the definition of 'evil to the core' :P
I know Rich set us all up for this, but you do know you just invoked Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law), don't you?

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. It also means you have just lost the argument (http://vjarmy.com/archives/2005/11/yahoo_invokes_godwins_law_lose.php). Shame, really, 'cos you are right... :smallfrown:

[Kish]

You should read your own (first) link.

Belkar is not a participant in this debate and FujinAkari did not compare anyone posting here to the Nazis. Godwin's Law is not "anyone who ever mentions the Nazis loses," and that's a hideous, if all-too-common, perversion of it. ("Ooh, we have to pretend this huge, central section of history is affected by Cloister, because this guy named Godwin said something which lots of people on the Internet have gradually perverted into saying so!")

[Zale]

Why is it people find violent comedic sociopaths to be hilarious? Belkar, Richard..


I don't really care one way or another. On one hand, Belkar is easily one of the most entertaining characters. On the other, he probably deserves some karmic retribution.

[Francis Davey]

... you do remember his evil is measured in KILONAZI's, right? Thats pretty well the definition of 'evil to the core' :P

Absolutely. We have this on very reliable authority.

Belkar's motivation for staying in the OOTS is a little obscure. I suspect its at least partly because he likes being given direction which he lacks himself. The fact that working with the OOTS does involve lots of killing must help.

His own rationalisation (from DCF - I can't remember the reference) is that he keeps them around in order to be able to boast to them about what he has been doing - when he kills a ninja there's no-one to see, and where's the point in that?

[true_shinken]

I don't think Belkar will die.
I want to know how that prophecy is going to be twisted.

[Burner28]

Why is it people find violent comedic sociopaths to be hilarious? Belkar, Richard..




I don't think Belkar or Richard would have been well-liked if their actions were not done in a comedic manner (for example one liners, killing in a ridiculous fashion)

[Lord Bingo]

By far Belkar is the most memorable character out of the OOTS, and apart from three ungainly barbarians and an unlucky gnome I cannot off the top of my head think of an (in comic) instance where Belkar has actually killed anyone who did not in some way have it coming, regardless of his intentions to do otherwise. (Before you object, I count the Azurite prison guards as "somehow having it coming" because they would have opposed his escape.)

What Shojo started in Belkar by suggesting that he "play the game" is a process of positive reinforcement. As Belkar plays along his actions will slowly but surely affect his dispositions. I am not sure he himself realize that, so basically dead Shojo has tricked Belkar into becoming a better person.

Regarding the death of his character my thought go back to how Obi Wan Kenobi told Luke Skywalker that his father was dead and then later defended it with "... what I told you was true, from a certain point of wiew". When the evil sociopath that is Belkar is destroyed he will seize to be the Belkar we know.
Given the Giants fondness of Star Wars references I do not think this is too far fetched.

When Belkar eventually realize this change it might be time for him to die nevertheless. A lot of his comedic potential stems from his murderous nature and once/if that has been quelled I fear that he will no longer be comedy gold.

I still love him in the comic!

[Kish]

By far Belkar is the most memorable character out of the OOTS, and apart from three ungainly barbarians and an unlucky gnome I cannot off the top of my head think of an (in comic) instance where Belkar has actually killed anyone who did not in some way have it coming, regardless of his intentions to do otherwise. (Before you object, I count the Azurite prison guards as "somehow having it coming" because they would have opposed his escape.)
At which point you have redefined "having it coming" well beyond the level you can realistically expect to receive general agreement.

I suggest you try something less controversial, like, "Belkar's never killed anyone he didn't want to kill."

Also? To what extent he's the most memorable, it's solely because he's an evil character in a good party. If the rest of the characters didn't spend so much time being outraged by him, Elan would blow him away for memorability.

[Lord Bingo]

At which point you have redefined "having it coming" well beyond the level you can realistically expect to receive general agreement.
Apparently:smallwink:

Then let us (me) say "who presented an obstacle". I was merely pointing out that any character in the party would -and most often did- fight the goblins, the bugpeople, the evil soldiers, people who keep or try to keep them captive, and the other assorted monsters the OOTS have killed so far. Belkar just makes sport of it.
In that sense, if the character Belkar was played in a D&D game, he would be played by someone who is there to roll dice, kill monsters and get loot and who could care less about the underlying narrative. In that case only now would he or she be starting to see that there is more to the game (probably after a long talk with his or her slightly annoyed DM).


Also? To what extent he's the most memorable ...
Let me make it clear that I actually like all the party members, and that the following is purely my opinion on the matter:
Each of the party members have their own little thing that pops up in the comic ever so often, but none of them are so consistently entertaining as Belkar. He is controversial and fun. Comedy Gold. His politically incorrect behavior makes a big impression on people, whether it be negative or not. That is why I think he is the most memorable character in the party. He has brought so much joy and bile to people that if we remember anything of the OOTS in 50 years when we are all senile (or worse) it will be that little runt!

[Pheehelm]

Then let us (me) say "who presented an obstacle".Including this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html)?

[Lord Bingo]

Including this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html)?
That would be the afore mentioned gnome.

[Pheehelm]

Ah, I missed you'd said that before.

[MelTorefas]

I am totally looking forward to it, because I look forward to everything that is going to happen in OotS. I love this comic! Belkar's death, like everything else so far, is going to be awesome.

[veti]

We have a saying (http://www.answers.com/topic/give-a-dog-a-bad-name-and-hang-him) where I come from: "Give a dog a bad name and hang him."

What it means is that, once we decide someone is Bad, that taints our perception of everything they do. To people who have made up their minds that Belkar is a bad dog, he can't die soon enough, because no matter what he does they'll see it as evil.

The crimes Belkar is most often taxed with are those that we're happy to condone from others. Killing guards who are trying to prevent you escaping unjust imprisonment? Yeah, we're fine with that when Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) does it. Taunting your teammates? No problem for Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0236.html), but from Belkar it becomes evidence of EEEvil. Reckless endangerment? From Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html), that's a Crowning Moment of Awesome.

Yes, there are cases where Belkar clearly shows evil behaviour - there's That Gnome, That Bet, Those Kidneys. But offhand, I can't think of more than a dozen such instances in almost 800 strips. That's hardly "evil to the core". The whole "kilonazis" tag is an informed attribute, not borne out by any evidence we've seen.

[Miketheweird]

Looking forward to Belkar's death?

An odd answer for an odd question I say =P

Death can mean many things from a literary standpoint. It could mean the end of his life, or his life as a chaotic evil character, or any other of the multitudes of possibilities.

Also keep in mind that the oracle never said he would stay dead. Roy also died, but he didn't really stay dead did he. That opens up the possibility that Belkar could have a near death experience, while technically dieing, it would still only be temporary.

As for whether or not I am looking forward to it.

It all depends on how it happens and how well it is written into the story, though really I haven't been disappointed yet, so I'll just have to wait and see how I feel about it when it happens.

[Kish]

Also keep in mind that the oracle never said he would stay dead.
What's my standard reply whenever someone claims this? Oh, here it is.

"You did read the word ever, didn't you?"

[Miketheweird]

What's my standard reply whenever someone claims this? Oh, here it is.

"You did read the word ever, didn't you?"

So what your implying here is that he may come back as an undead character =P

[Niknokitueu]

...But offhand, I can't think of more than a dozen such instances in almost 800 strips... The whole "kilonazis" tag is an informed attribute, not borne out by any evidence we've seen.
Quoted FTW!
/sarcasm
Informed Attribute? How's about the dozen instances you thought of offhand?

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Lord Bingo]

Quoted FTW!
/sarcasm
Informed Attribute? How's about the dozen instances you thought of offhand?
If you measure the weight of a man in tons you automatically imply that he is fat. After all, why else would you need to use that scale? If you measure the time in millennia rather than years you insinuate that what ever you are investigating takes a long time. Etc.
I invite you to reread the strip in question paying particular attention to the penultimate frame: You might want to take note of the fact that Belkar's evil measured in Kilonazis is approaching zero (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)!

-edit-

I am sure you can find a dozen instances where member of the OOTS acted in a morally dubious manner. V comes to mind, casually killing what and whomever he finds convenient to snuff. Haley is little better and Roy is often just rearing for an excuse to swing his sword. Which ever way you look at it while they do not take the same glee in killing as Belkar they kill just the same.

-and again-

One of the wonderful things about Belkar is that he invites roleplayers like myself to question the moral efficacy of the acts of the average party of adventurers, such as OOTS.

Upon the killing of the gnome (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) Celia brings this to the forefront when she grudgingly suggests that Haley paint the gnome orange and sharpen his teeth to help rationalize (justify) the act, thus drawing attention to the base immoral sentiment of killing or subjugating other peoples/races/species because they are different from oneself and/or utility.

[Niknokitueu]

To be an Informed Ability (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAbility), the person so depicted cannot actually be shown to have the skill. Go read the entry.

...So if Belkar shows even one example of said behaviour, it is no longer an informed ability. Hence my amazement when you stated 'about a dozen' examples spring to mind, and then claim it to be an Informed Ability.

On other matters, if you measure someone's weight in Tons, and showed me a graph, it would be flat (close to zero). Unless the units used were like 0.001 tons, 0.002 tons, etc. Ditto time, and any other thing you wish to mention.

Now look at the graph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) you are using to support your view.

It is measured in units of a thousand nazis. Since his association with Roy, Belkar's graph has tended to a value between about 500 nazis and 1500 nazis. Go on, tell me he still isn't evil.

Futher, his degree of evilness is shown against a 'hypothetical offspring' of two inherently evil people. He is currently about 1/10th as evil, but still 'evil'. As opposed to 'neutral' or 'good'. Without Roy's restraining influence, he would be closer to twice as evil as that hypothetically incredibly evil person.

Anyway, I don't think I can say much more on the subject - in one post you prove yourself wrong, then in another post you refer to a graph that in itself disproves your point. I don't think I can make my point any better than you can make it for me.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Lord Bingo]

@Niknokitueu: You do realize that the one who brought up the issue of an "informed ability" and the one who directed you to the graph are not the same person, right?

Now, I am from mainland Europe where we use the metric system, so I know that 'Kilo' denotes multiplication of the unit by one thousand:smallwink: Whether you measure it in thousands of a unit or simply in units that does not really change that Belkars score historically from the time he hooked up with Roy and up until strip #489 has declined and is implying a trend of approaching zero.

Is he still evil? More or less I guess, though we certainly cannot use a graph presented in strip #489 as evidence that Belkar is or is not still evil when his entire character development have taken place after strip #605 and we are now nearing strip #800!

It is, however, not entirely unjustified of make a forecast regarding his future character development based on evidence gathered from the time when he joined Roy up until strip #489 where the graph is presented as being indicative of a general trend towards betterment, and recent observations seem to support the hypothesis that Belkar is becoming a better man.

As for the question of whether or not Belkar's evil measured in Kilonazis is an informed ability I will say this: Anyone who has ever been involved in quantifying qualitative data will know that the values ascribed to a specific observation is more or less arbitrary and highly subjective to the researcher doing the quantification. Having no access to the dataset which informs the graph and without similar graphs depicting the evil of other characters for comparison the graphs in question really is little more than a dramatic means to support the work of the Deva who is evaluating whether or not Roy belongs in the Lawful Good afterlife. Besides showing a general trend towards betterment it tells us nothing about how evil Belkar really is compared to the general populace, besides that he could have been worse.

[JackRackham]

We have a saying (http://www.answers.com/topic/give-a-dog-a-bad-name-and-hang-him) where I come from: "Give a dog a bad name and hang him."

What it means is that, once we decide someone is Bad, that taints our perception of everything they do. To people who have made up their minds that Belkar is a bad dog, he can't die soon enough, because no matter what he does they'll see it as evil.

The crimes Belkar is most often taxed with are those that we're happy to condone from others. Killing guards who are trying to prevent you escaping unjust imprisonment? Yeah, we're fine with that when Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) does it. Taunting your teammates? No problem for Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0236.html), but from Belkar it becomes evidence of EEEvil. Reckless endangerment? From Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html), that's a Crowning Moment of Awesome.

Yes, there are cases where Belkar clearly shows evil behaviour - there's That Gnome, That Bet, Those Kidneys. But offhand, I can't think of more than a dozen such instances in almost 800 strips. That's hardly "evil to the core". The whole "kilonazis" tag is an informed attribute, not borne out by any evidence we've seen.

Yeah, this. Is he evil? Yep, but not nearly as evil as he's made out to be. Haley killing Tarquin's guards was no worse than Belkar killing the guard in Azure City (Someone working for an evil government may or may not be evil. Someone working for a good government may or may not be good. He was being detained on bogus charges.).

Even with the Gnome, the point of that strip, to my mind, was to point out the moral gray area they've all been operating in all the time. He took things a half-step further than the rest of the party does routinely and he indicated that HE didn't see the difference - and Celia didn't see such a big difference herself.

[Dalek-K]

I'm looking forward to Roy pissing off the Oracle by raising Belkar :smallyuk:

[ref]

It's already overdue. Like, 794 strips overdue as of now. Grr


also, i consider people who "want belkars comeuppance" to take it a bit too serieusly, oots is still a comic with a lot of humor in it, and a evil character like belkar makes for some of the best jokes in the entire webcomic, same story as xykon, except from a protagonist point of vieuw

But people who wanted Miko dead was right? That's some big heap of double morale we found in this forum...

[Dakaran]

I'm looking forward to Belkar's death, but only because I think it will be an epic point in the story. Belkar's battle outside of Azure City resulting in him standing upon a pile of dead goblins, screaming "I am a sexy, shoeless god of war!" was an epic moment. I have to imagine his death will be even more so.

On top of that I actually kind of hope Mr. Scruffy goes down fighting beside Belkar. I think it would add so much more to his death. Belkar has truly bonded with Scruffy and I think them going down together would be very emotionally sucky, but ultimately a GREAT way to go with the story.

[Swordpriest]

Yeah, this. Is he evil? Yep, but not nearly as evil as he's made out to be. Haley killing Tarquin's guards was no worse than Belkar killing the guard in Azure City (Someone working for an evil government may or may not be evil. Someone working for a good government may or may not be good. He was being detained on bogus charges.).


Yes, right. There's absolutely no moral difference between --

-- Ambushing and knocking unconscious a non-threatening, good-aligned guard who is bringing you your dinner, then murdering them while they are already unconscious and could not prevent your escape in any case.

-- Being thrown out a window by a hostile general, then defending yourself when a group of the general's guards rush towards you, weapons drawn, with the explicit intent to kill you, and managing to kill them before they butcher you. Note Tarquin's instructions, "don't kill the woman", meaning they were going to until he instructed otherwise.

Absolutely no difference at all. Killing an unconscious guy who was calmly and peacefully bringing you dinner is precisely the same on the moral scale as killing the heavily armed soldier of a military dictatorship who is charging violently towards you with the evident intent to kill you. Uh-huh. :smallsigh:

[Ancalagon]

Even with the Gnome, the point of that strip, to my mind, was to point out the moral gray area they've all been operating in all the time. He took things a half-step further than the rest of the party does routinely and he indicated that HE didn't see the difference - and Celia didn't see such a big difference herself.

Half-step? It was a leap with 7-mile-boots. It was unwarrented murder, just for the sake of it (and xp, but Belkar probably did not even get XP for the gnome).
On a scale of "evil" from zero (not evil) to ten (horribly and irredeemably Evil), where Xykon is at ten, Belkar hits a clear ten.
Roy? Is still at 0. He's clearly good and the "Powers of Celestia" confirmed it.
Elan? 0.
Durkon? 0.
Vaarsuvius? Hard to determine, but I'd put him around 4 or 5 (not really evil and clearly neutral at the moment... BUT!)
Haley? 2. Neutral, but she DID murder Crystal (who had it coming, but still...)

For reference, I'd put Redcloak at 8, Bozzok in the same region (maybe 7), Kubota at 7 or 8.

[Lord Bingo]

Killing an unconscious guy who was calmly and peacefully bringing you dinner is precisely the same on the moral scale as killing the heavily armed soldier of a military dictatorship who is charging violently towards you with the evident intent to kill you. Uh-huh. :smallsigh:

I guess now is the time to point out that Azure City is just as much a military dictatorship as is the Empire of Blood, albeit a benevolent one. Both Belkar and Haley acted against the interests of the ruling body and both fought for their lives.
You rate Belkar's actions to be more "evil" because 1) You have preconceived knowledge of each of the characters moral disposition, and 2) you have a preconceived idea of the moral worth of the nation against whom they fought. In short you rate Evil character fights Good authority as worse than Good character fights Evil authority. This is only natural given the context we are in, but you must realize that if we remove the question of preconceived moral agency from the equation then basically both Belkar and Haley did the same thing, they fought their perceived oppressors, in the most straight forward manner they knew.

I know that this is a discussion about moral worth, and I am sure that on a scale from 1-10 Belkar's actions were more morally questionable than Haley's but that does not make him the devil.

[Swordpriest]

I guess now is the time to point out that Azure City is just as much a military dictatorship as is the Empire of Blood, albeit a benevolent one. Both Belkar and Haley acted against the interests of the ruling body and both fought for their lives.
You rate Belkar's actions to be more "evil" because 1) You have preconceived knowledge of each of the characters moral disposition, and 2) you have a preconceived idea of the moral worth of the nation against whom they fought. In short you rate Evil character fights Good authority as worse than Good character fights Evil authority. This is only natural given the context we are in, but you must realize that if we remove the question of preconceived moral agency from the equation then basically both Belkar and Haley did the same thing, they fought their perceived oppressors, in the most straight forward manner they knew.

I know that this is a discussion about moral worth, and I am sure that on a scale from 1-10 Belkar's actions were more morally questionable than Haley's but that does not make him the devil.

No. Just no.

I wouldn't blame Belkar for killing someone trying to kill him, even if that person was good-aligned. I wouldn't consider it to improve his virtue, but it's a purely neutral act undertaken for survival.

The guard was not threatening Belkar's life when Belkar attacked him. Furthermore, Belkar knocked him unconscious, then killed him while he was helpless, for no reason other than that he wanted to kill him. He could have easily left without murdering the guard first. His action was not neutral, it was evil. He was perfectly safe leaving the guard alive.

Haley was under attack with lethal force in a combat situation and responded with lethal force. Her action was not good -- it was neutral, undertaken for survival. The alignment of her attackers is moot, as is the alignment of the system they were serving. It was kill or be killed.

For Haley to not kill her attackers would be suicide. For Belkar to not kill a helpless person who was no threat to him whatsoever would have been the right thing to do. Instead, he chose to deliberately do an evil act for no other reason than it gave him pleasure.

There is, IMO, literally no comparison between the two. Haley's action was a neutral action of survival. Belkar's was a pointless, vile, evil murder.

[Kish]

I know that this is a discussion about moral worth, and I am sure that on a scale from 1-10 Belkar's actions were more morally questionable than Haley's but that does not make him the devil.
Of course not--devils are Lawful!

[Funkyn]

Gasp* How can you look forward to the sexy shoeless god of war dying? Belkar is one of the best characters, even if he is evil. I never get tired of him.

[137beth]

The only thing I am looking forward to is an end the the 92389570 threads about Belkar's death:smallsigh:
Honestly, I doubt he will be out of the strip entirely (really, people can be raised from the dead, turn undead, ect. Belkar can NOT become a lich, but he CAN become a ghost.) I'm just tired of seeing people propose absurd theories about how he will be replaced by nameless NPC #3289047, or arguing over whether his death is a "good" thing.

[Misery Esquire]

Haley was under attack with lethal force in a combat situation and responded with lethal force. Her action was not good -- it was neutral, undertaken for survival. The alignment of her attackers is moot, as is the alignment of the system they were serving. It was kill or be killed.

We don't actually see the guards around Haley until they're all dead. Thier intended actions will forever remain a mystery.

[factotum]

We don't actually see the guards around Haley until they're all dead. Thier intended actions will forever remain a mystery.

I think it's reasonable to assume they weren't there to give her chocolates and flowers, though, wouldn't you? :smallsigh:

[hamishspence]

-- Ambushing and knocking unconscious a non-threatening, good-aligned guard who is bringing you your dinner, then murdering them while they are already unconscious and could not prevent your escape in any case.

It's not actually clear that the blow to the guard's head in the second-to-last panel knocked him out- it's possible that he was still conscious when Belkar killed him:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html

still, it's a reasonable surmise.

The fact that Belkar is in jail awaiting charges for which, as far as he knows "the only possible sentence is death" may play a part in his ruthlessness. It's quite common for adventurers to take a "Never leave a live enemy behind you" attitude. Still somewhat evil though.

And Hinjo did, after discussing it with Roy, knock the charge down to Voluntary Manslaughter rather than Murder.

[Burner28]

I think it's reasonable to assume they weren't there to give her chocolates and flowers, though, wouldn't you? :smallsigh:

I agree with you and from what Tarquin said in strip 722 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html), it seems the guards were about to kill her

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: GUARDS! Don't kill the red-haired woman.

[tcrudisi]

The only thing I am looking forward to is an end the the 92389570 threads about Belkar's death:smallsigh:
Honestly, I doubt he will be out of the strip entirely (really, people can be raised from the dead, turn undead, ect. Belkar can NOT become a lich, but he CAN become a ghost.) I'm just tired of seeing people propose absurd theories about how he will be replaced by nameless NPC #3289047, or arguing over whether his death is a "good" thing.

And then we can begin the "When and how will Belkar come back to life?" threads.

[Lurkmoar]

And then we can begin the "When and how will Belkar come back to life?" threads.

If we're lucky that will die down shortly before the end of the comic.

On that note, I am looking forward to seeing how Belkar buys it. I know I'm tired of him. Probably from all the people saying he's not evil...

[Burner28]

If we're lucky that will die down shortly before the end of the comic.

On that note, I am looking forward to seeing how Belkar buys it. I know I'm tired of him. Probably from all the people saying he's not evil...

Hm.. When will they ever end?

[137beth]

And then we can begin the "When and how will Belkar come back to life?" threads.

Darn...
I guess the point I'm looking forward to is when he dies AND is raised/formed into an undead/outsider. THEN...
well, I guess then the absurd theories will continue anyways.

[Antacid]

ITT: people who are assuming Belkar's death will in any way reduce the amount he appears in the comic.

[silvadel]

The biggest problem with Belkar dying is that it makes the party too optimized.

I mean Elan is now semi-competent. V is thinking of others first and casting not blasting. Get rid of Belkar freeing up Roy to be leader and not babysitter and the party isnt that incompetent anymore.

[factotum]

The biggest problem with Belkar dying is that it makes the party too optimized.

I mean Elan is now semi-competent. V is thinking of others first and casting not blasting. Get rid of Belkar freeing up Roy to be leader and not babysitter and the party isnt that incompetent anymore.

Are you reading the same comic as everyone else? Belkar is one of the most effective characters in the strip! Yes, his Wisdom is too low for him to use his spellcasting class feature, and he doesn't realise he has most of the others, but in any situation which just involves the stabby stabby Belkar has proven himself extremely adept. You'll notice that he killed dozens of hobgoblins when trapped outside the walls during the siege of Azure City, and he was easily able to hold off two high-level Rogues during the fight in Old Blind Pete's house. He was able to single-handedly fight Miko using stealth tactics, thus showing a degree of tactical thinking--in point of fact, if he hadn't been stupidly trying to get her to kill him (and thus Fall) he could have Coup de Grace'd her in #281, thus defeating a character who successfully defeated the entire Order in a straight fight earlier on.

In fact, apart from a couple of occasions where he's done something stupid (usually due to being bored and wanting a fight to break out) Belkar is arguably the most competent member of the Order!

[Warren Dew]

Gasp* How can you look forward to the sexy shoeless god of war dying? Belkar is one of the best characters, even if he is evil. I never get tired of him.
Ever since the hallucination of Shojo he's been getting less interesting. He needs to die sooner rather than later to avoid being remembered as a completely boring character.

[Funkyn]

Ever since the hallucination of Shojo he's been getting less interesting. He needs to die sooner rather than later to avoid being remembered as a completely boring character.

If I remember right, he was faking "turning over a less bitter leaf." I still think he's great - stealing the bread, murdering the bug-things when they threatened Mr. Scruffy, using the bug's neck as a bathroom, letting the dinosaur out during gladiator fight, the list goes on. He's still my second favorite character right after V :). I think most of the characters got somewhat boring at one point or another - Durkon not doing anything when Miko captured the OOTS, Haley during the resistance.

[Jay R]

So is anyone else looking forward to Belkar dying?

No, but I'm certainly looking forward to the death of the threads about Belkar's impending death.

[Kish]

No, but I'm certainly looking forward to the death of the threads about Belkar's impending death.
They will be replaced with threads about Belkar's "inevitable" resurrection, and how Elan getting a happy ending will actually mean something far more horrible for him than Belkar's and Vaarsuvius' prophecies meant for them.

[Kharavex]

No, I am not. I have finally resolved myself to the crushing dilemma of the oracles' prediction of Belkar's death and like others here on the boards, hope for an epically glorious end.

Besides, Belkar represents the repressed extension of my id towards my fellow Mikos (co-workers).:smallmad:

[squidbreath]

No and yes.

I find his character entertaining and tend not to care about the impact of fictional evil actions, as long as they're hilarious. Used to play game characters semi-like him before I found Oots, so he's easy to relate to as well.

Oh the other hand, I was hoping that his death would be sufficiently climactic, so I definitely wanna see it, just not soon.

[martianmister]

I really hope he's death will be soon and anticlimactic. :smallwink:

[Flawless]

I really hope he's death will be soon and anticlimactic. :smallwink:

Why? Because you don't like people who like the Belkster?

[martianmister]

Why? Because you don't like people who like the Belkster?

It's more funny, and less respectful to him. :smallbiggrin: