+14 Initiative at level 1. Worth it?

[Forbiddenwar]

Okay, picking out feats for halfling rogue. With a flaw and a trait (aggressive) I think I can get a +14 to initiative checks. Is it worth it? How much improved init is too much?

Init: +14 (+5Dex, +4 Improved Init, +3 Yondalla's Sense (Wisdom 17), +2 Aggressive)

[Greenish]

I probably wouldn't burn several feats on it.

[Jaraak]

Only if you crank up your Spot/Listen also. No point going first in initiative if you don't get to act in the surprise round.

[Ravens_cry]

Boosting initiative is only good if you can DO something good with it. So I probably wouldn't put that much effort into it at first level, but that's me.

[Forbiddenwar]

I probably wouldn't burn several feats on it.

just 2 and really, since the flaw is required I'm struggling to find a good 1st level feat for the flaw.


Only if you crank up your Spot/Listen also. No point going first in initiative if you don't get to act in the surprise round.

given. hide is +12, listen is +10, spot is +8


Boosting initiative is only good if you can DO something good with it. So I probably wouldn't put that much effort into it at first level, but that's me.
2 2d6 sneak attack is something right?

wasn't there a rule variant that you roll initiative each round or was that 3.0 or a homebrew? It might be good if that was in play.

[Greenish]

No point going first in initiative if you don't get to act in the surprise round.Well, denying the enemy two turns in a row seems plenty useful for me. :smallamused:

[Rei_Jin]

With that kind of thing in mind, you'll want to pick up Quick Reconoitter so that you can get Spot and Listen checks every round for free, as well as +2 Initiative.

[Forbiddenwar]

With that kind of thing in mind, you'll want to pick up Quick Reconoitter so that you can get Spot and Listen checks every round for free, as well as +2 Initiative.

You mean after first level (since you can't take it until 3rd)?
But at third I can finally get weapon finesse. (frickin BAB1 requirement)

[Dr.Epic]

Okay, picking out feats for halfling rogue. With a flaw and a trait (aggressive) I think I can get a +14 to initiative checks. Is it worth it? How much improved init is too much?

Init: +14 (+4Dex, +4 Improved Init, +4 Yondalla's Sense, +2 Aggressive)

As a halfling, you could have a 20 (+5) dex. It could be +15 to initiative.

[Forbiddenwar]

As a halfling, you could have a 20 (+5) dex. It could be +15 to initiative.

Right, but the question is is there ever a time when you have too much initiative?

[Flickerdart]

Right, but the question is is there ever a time when you have too much initiative?
If you have to delay for a buff, or for the enemy to come to you, then your initiative does nothing. If you cannot hit or hurt the enemy, your initiative does nothing. It's better to get one less turn at chopping the enemy to pieces rather than get the extra turn but not be able to make a scratch.
However, if you literally have nothing else to do with your feats, then it's as good an investment as any, especially for a Rogue.

[veven]

You should invest in a wand of nerveskitter and a weapon with a wand chamber for another +5.

Also, if you can convince your DM to let you go strongheart halfling you can get another feat (but you loose the +1 to all saves).

What kind of rogue are you going for? You said you have 2d6 sneak attack at level one so it sounds like you took the Halfling substitution level for more ranged sneak attack. If this is the case, and you are focusing on ranged sneak attacks, what is the point in taking weapon finesse? (Correct me if I'm wrong, I may have misinterpreted something).

[holywhippet]

I've never been sold on the usefulness of high initiative. I can understand why it might be useful - like disabling a powerful opponent using an item before they can act at the start of the combat. Otherwise I just assume that my turn is going to come up eventually so I might as well wait. Acting last during a round can be as useful as acting first since you can react to anything unexpected that might have turned up.

[veven]

I've never been sold on the usefulness of high initiative. I can understand why it might be useful - like disabling a powerful opponent using an item before they can act at the start of the combat. Otherwise I just assume that my turn is going to come up eventually so I might as well wait. Acting last during a round can be as useful as acting first since you can react to anything unexpected that might have turned up.

I agree that there is a point where improving it seems sort of pointless, but for a Rogue it is useful for getting off some sneak attacks before everyone is no longer flat footed.

[NNescio]

I've never been sold on the usefulness of high initiative. I can understand why it might be useful - like disabling a powerful opponent using an item before they can act at the start of the combat. Otherwise I just assume that my turn is going to come up eventually so I might as well wait. Acting last during a round can be as useful as acting first since you can react to anything unexpected that might have turned up.

High-level 3.5e combat tend to involve liberal amounts of rocket tag. Being able to tag first is a significant advantage, moreso if your opponents are rendered flatfooted (which shuts off Immediate Action defensive options).

Not that useful for low-OP games though, especially for noncasters.

[Rei_Jin]

It's also useful if your DM likes to use hordes of badguys, as ours does. One of his favourites is to swarm the battlefield with rogues, so then it becomes a tactical thing to not get yourself flanked, to not end up flat footed, and to smack as many rogues as you can.

Low op group, but if you took 4 or more sneak attacks in the surprise round of combat when you're low level, you would soon begin to think that Initiative was important.

[Dr.Epic]

Right, but the question is is there ever a time when you have too much initiative?

As for my 20 dex comment, I was just wondering why you didn't include that in the first post for a +15 initiative?

Really, depends on what you want to do. I once had like +20-something to bluff at level 5, so I'm not inclined to say you can't have something too high.

[Draz74]

First character quest: find a +1 Shuriken of Warning!

Second character quest: find a Ring of Anticipation!

:smallamused:

On a slightly more serious note, this character should pick up White Raven Tactics ASAP. Winning initiative by a LOT rather than a little becomes more of a benefit when you can bring an ally up to a similarly high initiative count.

[Divide by Zero]

On a slightly more serious note, this character should pick up White Raven Tactics ASAP. Winning initiative by a LOT rather than a little becomes more of a benefit when you can bring an ally up to a similarly high initiative count.

Note that this is a substantially less cheesy use of the move than if you go after the ally in question. Faster isn't always better :smallbiggrin:

[Godskook]

As for my 20 dex comment, I was just wondering why you didn't include that in the first post for a +15 initiative?

Really, depends on what you want to do. I once had like +20-something to bluff at level 5, so I'm not inclined to say you can't have something too high.

Bluff is a skill, Initiative is basically a dex-check. Skill ranks are among the many reasons that bluff is easier to buff.

[Figgin of Chaos]

Lucky Start from Complete Scoundrel lets you reroll initiative checks. And you'd be able to use the luck rerolls for more things with additional Luck feats.

[Feytalist]

An extra sneak attack is always useful.

As an aside, a weapon of warning also grants +5 to initiative, if you really want to take it to 11 (metaphorically speaking, since you're way past +11 already).

[ericgrau]

A rogue could want to win initiative for sneak attacks, though you don't necessarily need so much. What might be more important would be something like rapid shot+quick draw and/or TWF throwing weapons, depending on which kind of rogue you want to be later, for double the sneak attack. I'd use Javelins with rapid shot or a javelin plus a pre-loaded hand crossbow if using TWF.

[Gnaeus]

I've never been sold on the usefulness of high initiative. I can understand why it might be useful - like disabling a powerful opponent using an item before they can act at the start of the combat. Otherwise I just assume that my turn is going to come up eventually so I might as well wait. Acting last during a round can be as useful as acting first since you can react to anything unexpected that might have turned up.

Since initiative is circular, acting first in a round is exactly the same as acting last in the round, except that you get an additional round to buff yourself (as a rogue, drink a potion or umd a wand) at the beginning of combat, with the added benefit of not being flat footed. Going first is never worse than going last, and almost always better.

That said, unless you can retrain feats in your game, 2 feats at level 1 is almost certainly too much. You aren't going to find many enemies with more than a +3 or so, and a 7 point initiative advantage is statistically huge. You will almost certainly be raising dex in play, so your advantage will only get bigger over time, and using feats for things you can buy cheaply with money is not a good idea (unless feat retraining is easy in your game).

[Eldariel]

Probably better to pick something alternative instead of Yondalla's Sense/II (either-or). Combat style feat (TWF, PBS, some such), Rogue feat (Darkstalker, Craven, Tactile Trapsmith, some such) or some general feat.

[Boci]

Your rogue has 18 wisdom? Rolling or poiny buy?

[Forbiddenwar]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I've updated the OP. (I do have 20 dex and 17 wisdom from rolling) I was given the shaken flaw (-2 to range), so I am planning to go unarmed swordsage/rogue (shadow emphasis). It's always been my dream to play a sneak attack with bare hands character, and I may finally have the rolls to do it (I also rolled a 16 and a 15 and a 13)

I'll take a look at strongheart halfing.

[Curmudgeon]

I was given the shaken flaw (-2 to range), so I am planning to go unarmed swordsage/rogue (shadow emphasis). It's always been my dream to play a sneak attack with bare hands character
Gee, this strikes me as a pretty odd way of attaining your goal. With Shaky to make your ranged attacks poor you'll be sacrificing the chance for a ranged attack in the surprise round, every single encounter. That's a waste of opportunity to hit a flat-footed opponent for sneak attack. And Halfling with 20' movement may not let you close to melee range in the surprise round, so you'll often be wasting opportunities for full attacks against flat-footed opponents for sneak attack in the first regular combat rounds.

If you want to attack unarmed, Small size can actually work to your advantage, since Superior Unarmed Strike's damage isn't dependent on size, but is effectively that of a Small Monk up to level 19. But that feat removes the need to take the unarmed Swordsage variant; your damage progression will be the same if you take that feat and some other class which will give you more features. Straight Rogue would at least make your sneak attack formidable, which Swordsage would not. Or Cloistered Cleric with +2d6 sneak attack and Sacred Outlaw would give you full sneak attack progression from your Rogue + Cleric levels, and all the benefits that domains and spellcasting provide.

[Forbiddenwar]

2 things swordsage gets me that cleric cannot.
At level 1, take island of blades so that every attack is a sneak attack (against gooey bit creatures of course)
At level 1, take desert wind boost so I can sprint across the field.

And I rolled the flaw, I didn't choose it :smallfrown:

At least my ability rolls were better. I may be able to take aesthetic rogue so my UASS levels count as rogue levels for sneak attack, but that might be OP.

[veven]

2 things swordsage gets me that cleric cannot.
At level 1, take island of blades so that every attack is a sneak attack (against gooey bit creatures of course)
At level 1, take desert wind boost so I can sprint across the field.

And I rolled the flaw, I didn't choose it :smallfrown:

At least my ability rolls were better. I may be able to take aesthetic rogue so my UASS levels count as rogue levels for sneak attack, but that might be OP.

If you don't mind loosing Yondalla's sense, you should check out the Whisper Gnome as well as strong heart halfling. They make amazing rogues and they take out the goofiness of your typical gnome. They get +2 dex and con and -2 cha. Silence as a spell like ability (only works on self) 1/day and a feat you can take to get it another couple of times. They also get a +4 racial bonus to hide and move silently, and are small size, so with the dex boost that comes out to a total of +9 to your hide checks right off the bat. The coolest thing (if you are focusing on melee combat) is that they have a 30 ft land speed even though they are small.

Also, check out the travel devotion feat. Much more efficient then that desert wind boost because it allows you to move your speed AND full attack. Even a 1 level dip in cloistered cleric would be useful since you could trade the travel domain for that feat. That would also give you all knowledge skills as class skills and you could trade the inquisition domain for knowledge devotion to help make up for your less than full BAB. You could still do all the sword sage stuff too but like someone else said, superior unarmed strike takes care of the damage aspect so you might as well keep your light armor and weapon proficiencies.

[Forbiddenwar]

*SNIP*

:smalleek:
Books please. I hope whisper gnome is allowed.

[Eldariel]

:smalleek:
Books please. I hope whisper gnome is allowed.

Whisper Gnome is from Races of Stone. Travel Devotion is Complete Champion.

[Gahrer]

{Scrubbed}

[Curmudgeon]

2 things swordsage gets me that cleric cannot.
At level 1, take island of blades so that every attack is a sneak attack (against gooey bit creatures of course) That's only if your party members have cooperated to already be adjacent to the enemies you're attacking. That means they can't make ranged attacks (including magical ranged attacks), can't use reach weapons, and can't move or take 5' steps away after attacking. It's pretty situational.

At level 1, take desert wind boost so I can sprint across the field.
Not sure exactly which boost you mean by that, but I'm guessing Wind Stride, which provides +10' speed just until the end of your turn. The Celerity Clerical domain boosts your speed by +10' always, and you can cast Expeditious Retreat for another +30'. That's way better.

[Forbiddenwar]

That's only if your party members have cooperated to already be adjacent to the enemies you're attacking. That means they can't make ranged attacks (including magical ranged attacks), can't use reach weapons, and can't move or take 5' steps away after attacking. It's pretty situational.

Not sure exactly which boost you mean by that, but I'm guessing Wind Stride, which provides +10' speed just until the end of your turn. The Celerity Clerical domain boosts your speed by +10' always, and you can cast Expeditious Retreat for another +30'. That's way better.

Thank-you for your input. I appreciate your build advice and agree that cloistered cleric/rogue is probably a better, more optimized build.
I have decided to not take your advice for this game, and will file it for later.

Do you have an opinion on what initiative is too much initiative? is +10 good or bad? +15? +5?

[BluesEclipse]

On a rogue, I'd stack as much init as is feasible without hindering your combat ability. On anything else, +6 or +8 should be quite fine.

[Boci]

Do you have an opinion on what initiative is too much initiative? is +10 good or bad? +15? +5?

It is more to do with how many resources you are spending. The agressive trait is fine, and a high dexterity is a given, so thats a base of +7. If there really are no more feats then you may as well leave it at that, but I would take craven over Yondalla's Sense.

[Gnaeus]

Do you have an opinion on what initiative is too much initiative? is +10 good or bad? +15? +5?

There isn't actually a point where you have too much initiative. What there is is a point where the opportunity cost of raising your initiative again is higher than the cost of other methods of improving your character the same amount.

Looking at a PF rogue:
Dex 20: This helps your skills, AC, reflex saves, eventually your to hit. You would take this anyway.

Aggressive (is this a trait? like Reactionary?): Not strictly the BEST trait (Finding Haleen is awesome, and there are a few other very good traits), but still a very good expense.

So +7 is basically free.

Improved initiative is usually regarded as a good feat, but not an awesome one. That would be +11. Very high, but not really a waste.

Another important factor is what level you are, and what you are likely to be fighting. If you have lots of enemies who are also fast (say, you are fighting a rival rogue's guild) a higher initiative will help you more than if you are fighting slow, lumbering Ogres or Zombies.

[King Atticus]

I agree with previous posters that the +10 init ballpark is probably plenty and Craven, if you can get it (it's supposed to be FR specific but it really shouldn't be IMO) is beautiful for a sneak attack build (You take a -2 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. However, when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level.). You might still look into swordsage though so you could take the Island of Blades stance (which I still think is worth it) and the Shadow Blade Feat which would let you add your Dex to damage whenever you're in Island of Blades stance as long as you're using a weapon from the Shadow Hand list which includes Unarmed Strikes. Plus if you take it at 1st level you get a crazy amount of skill points (6 + Int modifier per level, ×6 at 1st level): it's the only x6 I've been able to find and considering it's list of class skills are perfect for a sneaky Rogue type I think it's an amazing 1 level dip.

[dextercorvia]

Plus if you take it at 1st level you get a crazy amount of skill points (6 + Int modifier per level, ×6 at 1st level): it's the only x6 I've been able to find and considering it's list of class skills are perfect for a sneaky Rogue type I think it's an amazing 1 level dip.

Unless you are playing in a 100% RAW game, I assure you that it will be ruled a typo. Unfortunately, the errata isn't the most helpful here.

[Veyr]

Unless you are playing in a 100% RAW game, I assure you that it will be ruled a typo. Unfortunately, the errata isn't the most helpful here.
I've had at least one DM who thought the typo was funny, and the result not imbalanced, such that she allowed it. But only like "Oh, that's hilarious; sure, go ahead. Not a big difference anyway."

[King Atticus]

I'm just saying give it a shot. In my opinion if it's down in print it's the players job to try and get your hands on it. It's the DM's job to draw the line in the sand and say no. Why would you willingly give up 12 skill points (min) just because you think it's a typo? Asking is free and should be encouraged just don't be surprised or offended if it does come back as a no. :smallbiggrin:

[Akal Saris]

I'd say spending 2 feats on initiative is too much before you've finished your core feat build, so for this character +7 is the optimal amount. Quick Draw, Two Weapon Fighting, and even WF (Dagger) would all be good or better 1st level feats on a low level halfling rogue, since you can throw daggers at flat-footed foes when you win initiative, and flank with them in the following rounds. Later on, weapon enchantments and UMD+Nerveskitter can increase initiative further if necessary.

[King Atticus]

Quick Draw, Two Weapon Fighting, and even WF (Dagger) would all be good or better 1st level feats on a low level halfling rogue, since you can throw daggers at flat-footed foes when you win initiative, and flank with them in the following rounds. Later on, weapon enchantments and UMD+Nerveskitter can increase initiative further if necessary.

While this is good advice it looks like he's pretty set on going unarmed making those feats not so useful.


It's always been my dream to play a sneak attack with bare hands character

[dextercorvia]

While this is good advice it looks like he's pretty set on going unarmed making those feats not so useful.

Then he's going to want Improved Unarmed Strike at the least.

[Curmudgeon]

Do you have an opinion on what initiative is too much initiative? is +10 good or bad? +15? +5?
Basically anything that costs you something that will work out better for the character is too much. You're already getting +5 from your DEX and +2 from the trait, so you'll be doing well against most enemies. Beyond that you'd need to use feats to boost initiative instead of giving you some other benefit. Since you want to fight unarmed you'll want Improved Unarmed Strike immediately, followed by Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike); and if you want to actually do decent sneak attack damage you'll also need Craven.

[Forbiddenwar]

Since you want to fight unarmed you'll want Improved Unarmed Strike immediately, followed by Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike); and if you want to actually do decent sneak attack damage you'll also need Craven.

Craven looks good. I'll get that instead of improved init. at level 1. I'll get improved unarmed (UASS) and Shadow blade (delayed flaw) at level 2, and weapon finesse at 3 and superior unarmed at level 6. And improved Nat at 9 (when I have the BAB)
My sword sage may be just a 2 level dip (oh fyi, this is for an almost zero treasure campaign, another reason to fight unarmed and without the need for armor)

[theForce017]

Do you have an opinion on what initiative is too much initiative? is +10 good or bad? +15? +5?

I would say at first level, +10 is great and if you have spare feats, raise it! I played a Halfing Thrower that was Dex based and by level 12 I only had a +8 to my initiative because of my Dex. You are trying to optimize init so you will more than likely be going first every encounter. (Which will really help with your sneak attack damage)

[Eldariel]

I would say at first level, +10 is great and if you have spare feats, raise it! I played a Halfing Thrower that was Dex based and by level 12 I only had a +8 to my initiative because of my Dex. You are trying to optimize init so you will more than likely be going first every encounter. (Which will really help with your sneak attack damage)

In optimization, everything is always a matter of the opportunity cost. The question isn't what you can get, the question is what price you can pay for what and which investment (choice) is the best for each you can make (each class level, feat, skill point, etc.). Basically, you draw upon all your resources and invest them in the most efficient manner possible (definition of "efficient" varies, of course).

[theForce017]

In optimization, everything is always a matter of the opportunity cost. The question isn't what you can get, the question is what price you can pay for what and which investment (choice) is the best for each you can make (each class level, feat, skill point, etc.). Basically, you draw upon all your resources and invest them in the most efficient manner possible (definition of "efficient" varies, of course).

Though this is true, it depends on what you want. If he wants a high initiative and wants to go unarmed strike, then do it! Of course you are going to loose one ability or another but no build can do everything well. Optimization is the art of being the best at one task. An optimized Jack of All Trades is unobtainable.
Please correct me if I am wrong, it has been known to happen.

[Boci]

Though this is true, it depends on what you want. If he wants a high initiative and wants to go unarmed strike, then do it! Of course you are going to loose one ability or another but no build can do everything well. Optimization is the art of being the best at one task.

That's more minmaxing.



An optimized Jack of All Trades is unobtainable.
Please correct me if I am wrong, it has been known to happen.

Whilst its certainly true that a degree of focus is required for most optimization, a back up strategy is also very important. Plus there are quite a few builds that emphasize versatility. Changling is a very good race with no stat penalties and a racial ability that makes you instantly decent at disguise. Factotum is the Jack-of-all trades, and various rogue builds can also suffice.

[Eldariel]

Though this is true, it depends on what you want. If he wants a high initiative and wants to go unarmed strike, then do it! Of course you are going to loose one ability or another but no build can do everything well. Optimization is the art of being the best at one task. An optimized Jack of All Trades is unobtainable.
Please correct me if I am wrong, it has been known to happen.

Every character for a real game tends to be "Jack of All Trades" in that, they cannot direct all their resources at any given thing because doing one thing alone isn't going to get you very far in the game. That is to say, optimizing Initiative with all your resources is going to leave you with a character that goes first but going first doesn't accomplish anything since you left no resources for being able to do anything.

The question you need to be asking is if your character's overall contributions benefit more of going first than of X where X is what the alternative feat would offer (be it more damage, more versatile stealth or any such).


Basically, optimizing one aspect (often number) bar none is generally Theoretical Optimization which doesn't care for anything but Rules As Written, nor of the practicality of said build. Practical Optimization takes your constraints, your resources and tries to construct the most X character out of it where X is your goal (enjoyable, powerful, versatile, etc.).

Since in this game versatility tends to be power (because the more versatile you are, the more different encounters you can conquer with just your abilities), optimizing towards versatility is actually not only feasible, but commonly the best way to go. This is also why casters tend to rule supreme; they have a ton of spells they can change daily that, when optimized, give them strong answers (not as strong as a TO focused build, but strong enough to make do) to an unparalleled number of problems.

And this is why a PO build of a caster can afford to actually focus on doing a single thing extremely well, because the spells have them covered on doing everything quite well so they don't really need to spend other resources towards those abilities. Rogue, by contrast, can cheat quite a bit with Use Magic Device (to gain access to various magicks) but still needs to devote a significant number of feats and skills to accomplishing the various things you might need over the course of a campaign leaving gimmicky stuff like superstacking your initiative outside the optimal course for practical optimization since those resources could be better served to improve your skills, your combat prowess (combat is a rather common type of an encounter, after all, and it pays to have some capability there; Initiative, while important, isn't the be-all end-all roll and having good combat prowess even if you lose initiative and having good capabilities to utilize winning initiative are probably more important than just single-minded initiative optimization).

[Rejakor]

Unarmed Swordsage/Rogue is a perfectly reasonable t3 combination.

A cleric/rogue will be more powerful, but has less synergy, the power is there because clerics are tier 1 powerhouses.

Being an unarmed swordsage negates the need to take IUS, freeing up a feat.

A nice little trick on a dex/int based melee character is to use Martial Rogue from Unearthed Arcana, which gets feats instead of sneak attack, in combination with Swashbuckler and the Daring Outlaw feat. You get sneak attack equal to a rogue of your swashbuckler + rogue level, fighter feats from your rogue levels, and if you go to swashbuckler 3, int to damage.

As a swordsage, there are better 1st level maneuvers than the desert wind speed boost... at early levels, the strikes are good, later on, retrain them to things like Sudden Leap (make a jump check and move that far as a jump as a swift action), Moment Of Perfect Mind, Distracting Ember (free flanking buddy - cost, one swift action) and Counter Charge. The strikes that are good at early levels are Burning Blade (1d6+1/IL fire damage to all attacks you make this round, as a swift), Sapphire Nightmare Blade (good way to flatfoot someone if you can't see another way, +1d6 dmg makes up for only one attack), and Shadow Blade Technique (good if you're having trouble hitting, or only have a standard action, or both).

And don't forget Cloak Of Deception for swift action invisibility, Shadow Jaunt for (Ex) teleportation, and Assassin's Stance for +2d6 SA.

[Combat Reflexes]

Do you have an opinion on what initiative is too much initiative? is +10 good or bad? +15? +5?

The best way of increasing Initiative is IMO to take a level of Wizard. You can trade away the Scribe Scroll for Imp. Init (don't remember what rulebook that is from) AND you'll get access to Nerveskitter, AND you can get yourself a hummingbird familiar, which grants a +4 bonus to initiative checks.

That's a +13 on top of what you already have*. A bit minmax-ish, but really worth it in a not-too-serious gaming group.

*Initiative +27;
+5 Dex, +2 aggressive, +3 yondalla's sense, +4 improved init, +4 improved init, +4 hummingbird, +5 nerveskitter

[Curmudgeon]

Unarmed Swordsage/Rogue is a perfectly reasonable t3 combination.

A cleric/rogue will be more powerful, but has less synergy, the power is there because clerics are tier 1 powerhouses.
I beg to differ. Rogue/Cleric has a multiclassing feat available in Sacred Outlaw; that gives considerable synergy, since it stacks levels for sneak attack dice and undead turning. There's no such multiclassing option for Rogue/Swordsage. What synergy you can get from maneuvers and stances is pretty meager.

[Elric VIII]

The best way of increasing Initiative is IMO to take a level of Wizard. You can trade away the Scribe Scroll for Imp. Init (don't remember what rulebook that is from) AND you'll get access to Nerveskitter, AND you can get yourself a hummingbird familiar, which grants a +4 bonus to initiative checks.

That's a +13 on top of what you already have*. A bit minmax-ish, but really worth it in a not-too-serious gaming group.

*Initiative +27;
+5 Dex, +2 aggressive, +3 yondalla's sense, +4 improved init, +4 improved init, +4 hummingbird, +5 nerveskitter

The Wizard variant is from UA and SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) at the bottom of the page.

Just wondering about this, how are you getting Improved Initiative x2?

Although, you could still achieve this with Elf Wizard 3 from RotW, trading the ability to deliver touch spells from a doubled familiar bonus (assuming hummingbird).

[Curmudgeon]

Just wondering about this, how are you getting Improved Initiative x2?
Probably an error. Improved Initiative taken twice provides no more benefit than the feat taken once, so that's redundant.

[Boci]

Just wondering about this, how are you getting Improved Initiative x2?

I'm guessing its the elven generalist substitution level which doubles the numberical bonus granted to you by your familiar.

[Combat Reflexes]

The Wizard variant is from UA and SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) at the bottom of the page.

Just wondering about this, how are you getting Improved Initiative x2?

Although, you could still achieve this with Elf Wizard 3 from RotW, trading the ability to deliver touch spells from a doubled familiar bonus (assuming hummingbird).

Oh, wait! Improved Initiative can't be taken multiple times! D'oh.
take Quick Reconnoiter then (make Spot/Listen check as free action 1/round, +2 to initiative) - for a total of +25

I know about the elf wizard substitution level/hummingbird trick, but the OP is a halfling, not a pointy-ears :smallannoyed:

[Boci]

I know about the elf wizard substitution level/hummingbird trick, but the OP is a halfling, not a pointy-ears :smallannoyed:

He's also a rogue/swordsage, so I figured your build was just to show how high you can boost initiative.

[Eldariel]

I'm guessing its the elven generalist substitution level which doubles the numberical bonus granted to you by your familiar.

Requires level 3 though, so it's not applicable to the question at hands.

[veven]

Thank-you for your input. I appreciate your build advice and agree that cloistered cleric/rogue is probably a better, more optimized build.
I have decided to not take your advice for this game, and will file it for later.

Do you have an opinion on what initiative is too much initiative? is +10 good or bad? +15? +5?

I admire a man/woman with principles. Honestly, most rogue builds are pretty feat hungry so I would agree with most in the thread that spending two feats on it may be an over-investment. If you really want your character to make sure to go first then go for the Improved Initiative.+7 is already great but another +4 can't hurt.

I would still highly recommend taking the travel devotion feat. Since you aren't going cleric you will only be able to use it 1/day (unless you take the feat again) but for 1 minute per day you get 2 move actions and a standard (or 1 move action and 1 full attack to be precise) which will be a huge boon to your ability to get to your enemies and full attack.

If you don't wanna spend the feat you should still try to find a way to move and get full attacks. The slightly cheesy (but still great) 1 level dip into barbarian for the Lion Spirit Totem ACF from complete champion. This lets you full attack on a charge. I know barbarian may not seem to fit your theme but wait! there's more. The ferocity rage variant is actually a great fit for this sort of build and can be found here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

Instead of boosting Str and Con Ferocity boosts Str and Dex. So you get a bonus to your fists' damage and you to hit and AC (ferocity has no AC penalty, just a ranged attack penalty). Another great thing about it (since you are focusing on Initiative) is that you can use it as an immediate action even while flat footed to get that extra +2 from your boosted dex on your initiative check.

If your group is ok with separating fluff from crunch you can pass it off as some sort of crazy combat adrenaline rush or whatever works for ya.

Edit: You could also take the Staggering Strike feat from complete adventurer. If you deal damage with a melee sneak attack your enemy has to roll a fort save = to the damage or be staggered for 1 round. This'll prevent big tough guys from getting full attacks on you after you run up and pummel them.