Dungeoncrasher Optimization

[Tvtyrant]

The Dungeoncrasher ACF allows a Fighter to make good use of the bullrush ability. However said fighter is fighting an uphill battle against size modifiers to bullrushing and a strength score lower then really big monsters usually have. So how would one optimize a dungeoncrasher?

So far the obvious ones have been taking Improved Bullrush, the Dungeoncrasher ACF (including 8 levels of Fighter), and a Brutal Surge weapon (netting you an extra +2 to Bullrush with a twohander).

What else can be used to increase the effectiveness of a dungeoncrasher?

[BillyBobJoe]

Flying. No seriously. By RAW, you can bull rush someone INTO THE GROUND ITSELF by bull rushing from straight above them.

[Hirax]

Half-minotaur or half-ogre psywar 3 (with practiced manifester for ML 7) could become gargantuan as a swift action with expansion.

edit: stick on dragonborn if you want to fly, and primordial giant if you want to be a half-ogre that isn't Thog-like.

[Tvtyrant]

Flying. No seriously. By RAW, you can bull rush someone INTO THE GROUND ITSELF by bull rushing from straight above them.

O_o Raptoran it is o_O

This solves a lot of the pushing people through corridors trying to get to a wall problems.

[JaronK]

Google search for a thread called "Optimized Shield Use." The second build, the bulldozer, makes good use of Dungeoncrasher with War Hulk and Knockback to devastate nearly everything.

JaronK

[Zaq]

Bull rushing is a STR check, right? The Mauling Gauntlets soulmeld is one of the best ways of boosting raw STR checks. It's best on an Incarnate (who used the feat Shape Soulmeld to get it, of course), but even just taking SS: Mauling Gauntlets on a Fighter will give you a +2, or (at least) +4 if you have essentia—say, from being a duskling or azurin.

Let me put it this way. A level 3 Incarnate with 10 STR who spends two feats (SS: Mauling Gauntlets, which is the key to the trick, and Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, which is a fantastic feat anyway, so it's not really a cost) can get a +8 to STR checks. For contrast, a level 3 Barbarian with a starting STR of 18 has a +6 to STR checks while raging. The Incarnate's mods continue to scale with level, and of course, there's nothing stopping them from starting with more than 10 STR. (Hint: This same trick also makes EWP: Harpoon a beautiful choice.)

So yeah. Once you hit level 2/6 in Fighter, go into Incarnate for a few levels until you're happy with the bonus Mauling Gauntlets is giving you. 3 levels is a nice breakpoint since level 3 gives you a class feature that increases your essentia cap, but 4 levels is nice because you get the Feet and Hands binds, which have some great utility. You'll also get a few other melds, of course, which are fantastic for providing defenses, immunities, or utility.


Half-minotaur or half-ogre psywar 3 (with practiced manifester for ML 7) could become gargantuan as a swift action with expansion.

1) Getting two size increases costs +6 PP, and getting a swift action manifesting time costs another +6 PP. You'll need ML 13 for that.
2) Practiced Manifester increases your bonus PP from having a high key ability score, but not from class levels. A level 3 PsyWar has 3 PP from class levels. With ML 7, you'll need at least 14 WIS to have enough PP to do your trick even once. To do it twice per day, you'll need 18 WIS (or 16 WIS and +1 PP from somewhere else). Not exactly optimal.

[Halae]

I actually have a really good one.

BBJ is right, flying above someone to get the bull rush into the ground is absolutely priceless. However, It's better if you can play it as a Half-Ogre - here's why

Knockback, a feat from Races of stone, is a wonderful little thing (one of the requirements is being large though). It lets you make a bull-rush on a power attacked strike - so that greatsword you'd be powerattacking with anyways? it now does a bull rush as well, using the bonus to damage you got on your damage roll as a bonus on your bull rush as well, so trading 5 points of attack bonus to get 10 damage? alkso a +10 on a free bull rush. plus, you don't need to follow the enemy, meaning you can send them soaring distances like 20 feat without even much optimization.

But you have a different strategy in mind. You fly above the enemy using magic or items, and start bull rushing from above. and the best part? You can do this with every iterative you have. At level 20, with a speed weapon, that can be five dungeoncrashings into the the dirt, easy. This is even better if you dip barbarian to get pounce and rage.

[WinWin]

Powerful blows (?) from races of stone. Trigger bull rushes from attacks.

Awesome Smite from Champions of Valour allows Smite modifiers to apply to bull rush attempts.

Tactical feats such as combat brute and shock trooper also add to the utility of bull rushing.

I have seen some dubious TO involving Chameleon and bonus spell slots in order to gain the high level slots required for Giant Size among other things. Requires generous interpretations of some of the touchstone feats. Makes colossal size fairly easy to attain and the strength bonus is fairly hard to reproduce via other methods.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any Large-size race, such as Half-Ogre (RoD, +2 LA), or for extreme cheese go Half-Minotuar Water Orc. Max out Str, have Dex at least 15.

Go Fighter 6/ War Hulk 10/ probably Warblade 4. Get Power Attack, Cleave (prerequisite), Improved Bull Rush, Knock-Back, Combat Reflexes, TWF, and EWP: Kusari-Gama (DMG), a light reach weapon. Get Gloves of the Balanced Hand and Armbands of Might. Always Power Attack for -2, it won't add to your damage because your weapons are light, but it will allow you to use Knock-Back on every attack. War Hulk gives you +2 Str per level, plus your racial Str bonus, and your Bull Rush attempts get +4 for Improved Bull Rush, +4 for size, +2 for the Armbands of Might, and +2 for Power Attacking combined with Knock-Back, for a considerably high bonus. War Hulk has the added benefit of making your swings hit multiple creatures. At War Hulk 10, every swing you make will hit every opponent within reach, so sweep everyone into a corner and Dungeoncrash them against the wall. If anyone tries to escape they'll provoke an AoO, which will also hit everyone within reach.

[FMArthur]

Why no mention of Goliaths? It's the race from Races of Stone that Knockback (your absolutely mandatory Dungeon Crashing feat) was designed for. Their Powerful Build makes them count as Large for the Bull Rush, and are only LA+1 with no RHD, which is an advantage versus fully-Large races.

Shock Trooper is another obvious good one, its Directed Bull Rush benefit allowing you to choose your bull rush direction in a 90° arc in front of you, the Domino Rush benefit's free-trip-on-collision letting you collapse enemy formations by knocking them all into each other, and the Heedless Charge benefit allowing you to Power Attack out of AC on a charge.

And for knocking someone into the ground, I think there's a Tiger Claw maneuver that lets you jump up above someone to attack them, which requires less set-up than doing it with flight. Goliaths also make standing jumps as if they were running jumps, so this and Sudden Leap make Warblade levels more than worthwhile on a Dungeon Crasher for the extra power, mobility and versatility without necessitating the Leaping Dragon stance.

[Eldariel]

The standard issue suite is having some levels in Barbarian (1-2; Rage is convenient and you can use Stoneblessed: Goliath in conjunction with Barbarian to get Mountain Rage from the Goliath Barbarian Sub to become Large as any race), Fighter 6, Knockback (plus Large size from magic, race or some such; Jotunbrud [PGtF] should qualify you just as well) & Shock Trooper.

Knockback improves your Bull Rush with every point of PA you invest in it, which combined with Shock Trooper and the Charge-bonus is a lot. This can then be combined with the directional abilities of Shock Trooper for all sorts of hilarity. Flight is also convenient; Dragonborn, Raptoran or just plain magic works.

Finally, you'll finish it off with Warblade to gain some Charge-maneuvers for easy, reliable charging with various bonuses (can also pick up Charging Minotaur for some extra Bull Rush options). As long as you are dealing with something you can Bull Rush, you'll succeed. Rampaging Bull Rush allows you to leave people prone and the Improved Trip from Barbarian 2 goes nicely with the Shock Trooper Domino Bull Rush leaving you with a pretty tight (but brutal) packet overall.


You could end up at Fighter 9/Barbarian 1/Warblade 10 or Fighter 10/Barbarian 2/Warblade 8. Fighter 6 also suffices but when you already take Fighter 6, it's kinda waste not to pick up Zhentarim Fighter-subs while at it especially since you have Rage too and thus can also pick up Intimidating Rage and Ferocity ACF or Instantaneous Rage for further expansion on that front.

[Curmudgeon]

By RAW, you can bull rush someone INTO THE GROUND ITSELF by bull rushing from straight above them.
When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. D&D doesn't have facing, so directions that imply facing get pretty weird. But that doesn't look like it allows vertical movement. From Dictionary.com:
to cause to move backward (often followed by up ): to back a car.
with the back foremost. Only if they're in the air and heading toward you will "straight back" be in the groundward direction. "Straight back" couldn't be derived from your (the attacker's) direction of movement, so it's got to be relative to the opponent. If they're moving on the ground you can bull rush them into a wall, but not into the ground.

[Siosilvar]

D&D doesn't have facing, so directions that imply facing get pretty weird. But that doesn't look like it allows vertical movement. From Dictionary.com: Only if they're in the air and heading toward you will "straight back" be in the groundward direction. "Straight back" couldn't be derived from your (the attacker's) direction of movement, so it's got to be relative to the opponent. If they're moving on the ground you can bull rush them into a wall, but not into the ground.

D&D doesn't have facing, so let's look at Bull Rush a different way.

You move into the opponent's square and push them away in the same direction along that same line.

EDIT: And since there's no facing, how are you intending to determine where "back" is relative to the rushee? There's no "front".

EDIT2: Why can't you derive "back" from the attacker? In the vernacular, at least, you can use "toward" and "back" relative to some other thing (though it's usually "toward" and "away"). Back would then be away from the bull-rusher, which still makes sense.

[Curmudgeon]

EDIT2: Why can't you derive "back" from the attacker? In the vernacular, at least, you can use "toward" and "back" relative to some other thing (though it's usually "toward" and "away"). Back would then be away from the bull-rusher, which still makes sense.
Assuming that did make sense with the D&D rules, let's step through this.

Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Assuming they're of Medium size or smaller, that means you're both in the 5' cube immediately above the ground.
Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet.
If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. So the opponent can't move out of this cube that you're sharing.
Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. Assuming that you don't drop the opponent below 1 HP, you're not allowed to be there.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. So that would require moving 5' back in the air.
Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. You may avoid the AoO for the bull rush itself with the Improved Bull Rush feat, but you're not going to avoid the AoO for moving back out of the shared cube. And then you're going to be in position for a full attack by that opponent.

[Siosilvar]

Assuming that did make sense with the D&D rules, let's step through this.
Assuming they're of Medium size or smaller, that means you're both in the 5' cube immediately above the ground. So the opponent can't move out of this cube that you're sharing. Assuming that you don't drop the opponent below 1 HP, you're not allowed to be there. So that would require moving 5' back in the air. You may avoid the AoO for the bull rush itself with the Improved Bull Rush feat, but you're not going to avoid the AoO for moving back out of the shared cube. And then you're going to be in position for a full attack by that opponent.

So, you push the opponent into the ground, they take the damage, you are placed back (you do NOT move back; "put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied" does not imply movement of any sort, just that you are actually there instead of your opponent's square - plus the "character end[ed] its movement" already).

You are on the receiving end of a full attack if you've already used your move action, yes, unless you have some other way to move away (swift-action teleport or an already-active Travel Devotion are among my top choices, though Travel Devotion will still provoke an AoO).

[Halae]

Not that moving away really has to matter all the time. With Knockback you still get the bull-rush but you don't have to occupy a square with an enemy in it, and with the iteratives you get in addition to Dungeon-crasher you probably just kill the enemy outright, further destroying the possibility of retaliation - after all, a knockbacking dungeoncrasher warhulk is dealing absolutely ludicrous amounts of damage to anything that it does this to - often well over a hundred with a single strike, or more if you've used leap attack. And if you can pull off a pounce, maybe using a barbarian dip, that number of attacks can go up to about 5, if not more

if all else fails, though, Siosilvar is right about how the movement after bull-rushing works

[Seerow]

Any Large-size race, such as Half-Ogre (RoD, +2 LA), or for extreme cheese go Half-Minotuar Water Orc. Max out Str, have Dex at least 15.

Go Fighter 6/ War Hulk 10/ probably Warblade 4. Get Power Attack, Cleave (prerequisite), Improved Bull Rush, Knock-Back, Combat Reflexes, TWF, and EWP: Kusari-Gama (DMG), a light reach weapon. Get Gloves of the Balanced Hand and Armbands of Might. Always Power Attack for -2, it won't add to your damage because your weapons are light, but it will allow you to use Knock-Back on every attack. War Hulk gives you +2 Str per level, plus your racial Str bonus, and your Bull Rush attempts get +4 for Improved Bull Rush, +4 for size, +2 for the Armbands of Might, and +2 for Power Attacking combined with Knock-Back, for a considerably high bonus. War Hulk has the added benefit of making your swings hit multiple creatures. At War Hulk 10, every swing you make will hit every opponent within reach, so sweep everyone into a corner and Dungeoncrash them against the wall. If anyone tries to escape they'll provoke an AoO, which will also hit everyone within reach.

I'm thinking this is the way to go, but rather than the Warblade 4, I'd say go with the Incarnate 3 mentioned above, and Barbarian 1 (with extra rage if you have the feats to spare). That way you get another +8 on your bullrush check from incarnate, and another +4 strength while raging. I just don't see the benefits from a couple warblade maneuvers beating the consistently higher bull rush check in this situation. So total you're ending up with something like:

18 (base) + 4 (Half-Minotaur)+ 8 (size increased from Half Minotaur)+4 (Water Orc)+5 (level)+5(tome)+20 (war hulk)+6 (enhancement) = 70 strength, large size, and a miscellaneous +14 bonus to Bull Rushing (8 Incarnate, 2 Armband of Might, 4 Imp Bull Rush, for a +48 bull rush check that deals 6d8+90 damage.

For comparison, a Tarrasque has only a +37 check (+17 str, +16 size, +4 imp bull rush), and doesn't have that awesome option to attack and bull rush everything within reach.

[Eldariel]

I'm thinking this is the way to go, but rather than the Warblade 4, I'd say go with the Incarnate 3 mentioned above, and Barbarian 1 (with extra rage if you have the feats to spare). That way you get another +8 on your bullrush check from incarnate, and another +4 strength while raging. I just don't see the benefits from a couple warblade maneuvers beating the consistently higher bull rush check in this situation. So total you're ending up with something like:

18 (base) + 4 (Half-Minotaur)+ 8 (size increased from Half Minotaur)+4 (Water Orc)+5 (level)+5(tome)+20 (war hulk)+6 (enhancement) = 70 strength, large size, and a miscellaneous +14 bonus to Bull Rushing (8 Incarnate, 2 Armband of Might, 4 Imp Bull Rush, for a +48 bull rush check that deals 6d8+90 damage.

For comparison, a Tarrasque has only a +37 check (+17 str, +16 size, +4 imp bull rush), and doesn't have that awesome option to attack and bull rush everything within reach.

Without Warblade, you lose out on a lot of mobility options though (most importantly Bounding Assault, but also Sudden Leap, Quicksilver Motion and all that). But I personally wouldn't bother with War Hulk; Shock Trooper + Knockback gets you your BAB to Bull Rush too making life obscenely easy for you and allowing you to take levels with class features instead (it is of course true that you can get the +10 from War Hulk and use Skillful Weapon to salvage some of the BAB; don't think the +10 Str modifier is really worth much in the grand scheme of things; quite expensive to invest 10 class levels for solely +15 damage and +10 Bull Rush). Warblade guarantees you can charge from various positions practically always regardless of the terrain, which in turn means you have reliable access to massive Bull Rush and damage bonuses.

And Warblade/Barbarian/Fighter still gets like 20 BAB+4 Size+15 Str+4 Improved Bull Rush = +43 Bull Rush without items (your math is off by 10 btw; War Hulk increases your Str modifier by only +1 per level) while also getting full charge modifiers including Power Attack plus multipliers on all the attacks.

EDIT: Fair point regarding two-handed Knockback. +63 then.

[Seerow]

Without Warblade, you lose out on a lot of mobility options though (most importantly Bounding Assault, but also Sudden Leap, Quicksilver Motion and all that). But I personally wouldn't bother with War Hulk; Shock Trooper + Knockback gets you your BAB to Bull Rush too making life obscenely easy for you and allowing you to take levels with class features instead (it is of course true that you can get the +10 from War Hulk and use Skillful Weapon to salvage some of the BAB; don't think the +10 Str modifier is really worth much in the grand scheme of things; quite expensive to invest 10 class levels for solely +15 damage and +10 Bull Rush). Warblade guarantees you can charge from various positions practically always regardless of the terrain, which in turn means you have reliable access to massive Bull Rush and damage bonuses.

Well War Hulk does get more than just plus strength. It also gets the amazing Massive Swing ability, which is basically a standard action whirlwind attack with unlimited uses. Sure, you only get two attacks per round due to no BAB progression, but both of those attacks are going to hit pretty hard, and will hit just as often as if you were in a full BAB class without the strength boost. And you can be hitting all enemies within 15 feet, combined with Knockback bull rushing them all for free on top of it.


And Warblade/Barbarian/Fighter still gets like 20 BAB+4 Size+15 Str+4 Improved Bull Rush = +43 Bull Rush without items (your math is off by 10 btw; War Hulk increases your Str modifier by only +1 per level) while also getting full charge modifiers including Power Attack plus multipliers on all the attacks.

I'm looking at the Miniature's Handbook right now, and it gives +2 strength per level, which is what my math included (+20 strength). That is a +1 modifier per level, sure. But it is still a +20 strength. Or are you saying it only increases strength checks? Because if so I have to wonder if War Hulk got reprinted somewhere and I wasn't aware. I'm looking in the miniature's handbook.


edit: That said, you are right that my math is off, but that's because I didn't account for the bonus from power attacking to bull rush from knockback. That's another +4, if you take the minimum -2 power attack penalty. If you charge for shock trooper and take the full -20, that's a +40 bonus on your bull rush check.

[Eldariel]

Well War Hulk does get more than just plus strength. It also gets the amazing Massive Swing ability, which is basically a standard action whirlwind attack with unlimited uses. Sure, you only get two attacks per round due to no BAB progression, but both of those attacks are going to hit pretty hard, and will hit just as often as if you were in a full BAB class without the strength boost. And you can be hitting all enemies within 15 feet, combined with Knockback bull rushing them all for free on top of it.

Certainly, but I don't see that being more useful than a Charge vast majority of the time (only when faced with hordes of tough mooks and lacking Cleave) since it deprives us of various Charge-related multipliers to the whole mess. Warblade makes it easy to acquire said multipliers instead, making it appear preferable to me.


I'm looking at the Miniature's Handbook right now, and it gives +2 strength per level, which is what my math included (+20 strength). That is a +1 modifier per level, sure. But it is still a +20 strength. Or are you saying it only increases strength checks? Because if so I have to wonder if War Hulk got reprinted somewhere and I wasn't aware. I'm looking in the miniature's handbook.

Pardon, I misread your strength math as counting the Bull Rush bonus. In other words, I thought you accidentally counted +20 from Warhulk to the Bull Rush rather than +10. My bad.

EDIT: Since PA is capped by BAB, War Hulk only gets +20 from there (unless you use e.g. Skillful weapon). That's one of the big reasons for my preference of Warblade; you can get Charges way more easily and get full BAB to Bull Rush straight as a consequence.

[FMArthur]

Knockback actually increases its bull rush bonus by 2 per point of Power Attack penalty if you wield a two-handed weapon, rendering +1 BAB more valuable than +2 Strength for that particular check as well as the damage if you have Shock Trooper.

With Iron Heart strikes you can replicate Massive Swing to reasonable effect anyway, on top of all of your mobiliy options. War Mind levels are another option to replicate this, grant full BAB and manifest Psychic Warrior powers. Also, remember that size is not a benefit of War Hulk, and so isn't a feature it can lord over Warblades and Warminds as if they couldn't get it through exactly the same means the Warhulk did. Warminds will probably end up larger than a Warhulk can expect to be because of Expansion.

[Curmudgeon]

So, you push the opponent into the ground, they take the damage, you are placed back (you do NOT move back; "put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied" does not imply movement of any sort, just that you are actually there instead of your opponent's square - plus the "character end[ed] its movement" already).
Of course it's movement. The fact that it's involuntary doesn't change that. You should have gathered that from the bull rush rules themselves.
If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.) Either you entered the opponent's square (required for the bull rush) and then were forced back, or you didn't ─ and the bull rush never happened.

[Seerow]

Certainly, but I don't see that being more useful than a Charge vast majority of the time (only when faced with hordes of tough mooks and lacking Cleave) since it deprives us of various Charge-related multipliers to the whole mess. Warblade makes it easy to acquire said multipliers instead, making it appear preferable to me.


The thing is, you don't need those charge multipliers. You're seriously doing an average 100 damage per hit from the dungeoncrash, plus the base damage from your attack (which with a +30 str mod is probably a minimum of around 70 damage without trying too hard). You do this to everything within reach as a standard action, or with a full round action you can do it to everything within reach 3 times (2 from BAB 1 from speed), without power attacking.



EDIT: Since PA is capped by BAB, War Hulk only gets +10 from there (unless you use e.g. Skillful weapon). That's one of the big reasons for my preference of Warblade; you can get Charges way more easily and get full BAB to Bull Rush straight as a consequence.


Good point. I guess that does give Warblade the advantage in that case, though the skillful weapon is a nice gem I had forgotten about, which means our War Hulk effectively is ahead of the Warblade's attack bonus, so can afford to power attack more without charging, say on a non-charge he power attacks for 7, bringing his bull rush bonus up to +62, more than enough to knock back anything near his CR, and deals something like 2d6+45(str)+5(magic weapon)+14 (power attack) = 71 average damage, not counting any other modifiers that you probably could have, then 8d6+90 = 118 damage on the crash, for an average damage of 179 damage per hit, 3 times in a round is 537 damage per round, again without getting too fancy on any of the damage mods. Being able to deal that kind of damage in a 15ft radius is devastating. There are very few monsters that can take that kind of punishment as a single target, even fewer that you're going to be running into with friends.

[Eldariel]

Good point. I guess that does give Warblade the advantage in that case, though the skillful weapon is a nice gem I had forgotten about, which means our War Hulk effectively is ahead of the Warblade's attack bonus, so can afford to power attack more without charging, say on a non-charge he power attacks for 7, bringing his bull rush bonus up to +62, more than enough to knock back anything near his CR, and deals something like 2d6+45(str)+5(magic weapon)+14 (power attack) = 71 average damage, not counting any other modifiers that you probably could have, then 8d6+90 = 118 damage on the crash, for an average damage of 179 damage per hit, 3 times in a round is 537 damage per round, again without getting too fancy on any of the damage mods. Being able to deal that kind of damage in a 15ft radius is devastating. There are very few monsters that can take that kind of punishment as a single target, even fewer that you're going to be running into with friends.

Warblade...should have no trouble doing greater damage consistently to anything too though. We can basically Charge at will (Bounding Assault offers us a charge not restricted by any of the normal Charge restrictions, for one, and we have various no-AoO charges available too), we have Mithral Tornado if we want a makeshift Whirlwind Attack, Cleave Charge if so desired, all with the free Dungeoncrashes on top of every attack.

I mean, yeah, the damage is going to be enough either way except against truly ludicrous targets but Warblade just offers more tactical versatility, and the fact that Warblades have freedom to basically charge wherever (or treat any attack as a charge, rather), they have no trouble bringing the massive damage to bear against the truly ludicrous targets against which you need the +40 to Bull Rush and the thousands of points of damage from Shock Trooper & Knockback.

[Draz74]

How has this not been linked yet?

Flaming Homer, the Bowling Ball of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22).

[Glimbur]

Of course it's movement. The fact that it's involuntary doesn't change that. You should have gathered that from the bull rush rules themselves. Either you entered the opponent's square (required for the bull rush) and then were forced back, or you didn't ─ and the bull rush never happened.

There's nothing in your logic exclusive to bull rushing into the ground. With an opponent with his back to a wall, you still have to move in to his square, try to move him, do your Dungeoncrasher damage, and then get pushed out because you can't be in the same square as him. You might get away with it if you push him more than five feet, depending on how the mechanics of long-distance bull rushes works.

[Siosilvar]

Of course it's movement. The fact that it's involuntary doesn't change that. You should have gathered that from the bull rush rules themselves. Either you entered the opponent's square (required for the bull rush) and then were forced back, or you didn't ─ and the bull rush never happened.

You enter the opponent's square. Then, since you've
end[ed your] movement while moving through a space where [you're] not allowed to stop, you
put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

Tell me where it says that "put your miniature" is equivalent to "move".

EDIT: Yes, involuntary movement provokes AoOs. "Put" is not "move" anywhere that I can find, so although involuntary, it's not movement.

[MeeposFire]

I like deep stone sentinel for my dungeon crashers. The second level ability crashing mountain juggernaut allows you to charge adjacent targets which is really nice (with a damage boost to boot) and you can create your own walls to ram people into using their dragon tooth ability. Very thematic and easy to get into (power attack is the only feat requirement).

[Tvtyrant]

Wow, people have put a lot more thought into this than I have. I was thinking a Brutal Surge Spiked Chain for knocking them back 10 ft. as being impressive :smallfrown:

Okay, so the questions up in the air are:
Half-Ogre/Goliath/Half-Minotaur
Warblade/Incarnate/Psywar/Stone Sentinel


Warhulk and Fighter seem pretty obvious :smallwink:

[BillyBobJoe]

Now combine with the Infinite Attacks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11111.0) Battle Jump build.:smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

Wow, people have put a lot more thought into this than I have. I was thinking a Brutal Surge Spiked Chain for knocking them back 10 ft. as being impressive :smallfrown:

Okay, so the questions up in the air are:
Half-Ogre/Goliath/Half-Minotaur
Warblade/Incarnate/Psywar/Stone Sentinel


Warhulk and Fighter seem pretty obvious :smallwink:

No, War Hulk is one of the contested options. Its Strength bonuses don't work out to being equal to BAB on either damage or bull rush attempts because of how Knockback, Power Attack and Shock Trooper work together, and all are mandatory feats on a Dungeon Crasher anyway. The two options presented as alternatives, Warblade and War Mind, are capable of delivering charges every turn via maneuvers and powers, have full BAB, and both are able to replicate the Great/Mighty/Massive Swing ability as well, making levels in either almost strictly superior to War Hulk for Dungeon Crashing.

Neat thing I just looked into: if you can bull rush a person into the ground, there are five Tiger Claw maneuvers to attack someone from above via jumping. Maybe they should have just made one that scales with level and used the extra space for more interesting Tiger Claw options. :smallconfused:

[Rejakor]

Battle Jump is pretty good for Dungeoncrashing, as you can bull rush them into the floor from your (pouncing) vertical charge which does double damage. That's the basis of the Hood build.

Best build so far using Knockback. Add Dungeon Crashing if you want. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12015.0)

[Tvtyrant]

If you used Bloodstorm Blader and Brutal Surge weapons, could you bullrush people from a distance?

[Curmudgeon]

Tell me where it says that "put your miniature" is equivalent to "move".
From the Movement entry in Rules Compendium, page 90:
ON THE GRID
During combat, movement occurs on the battle grid. A square on the battle grid is 1 inch across, representing a 5-foot-by-5-foot area. Miniatures or other tokens are used to represent and track creatures as they move. When you put your miniature one square away from its previous position, that represents the creature has moved 5'.

[WinWin]

Whirling Blade is better IMHO. Had an IC vigilante entry that made use of ranged dungeoncrashing.

Main disadvantage is losing PA benefits to knockback...That is assuming bloodstorm treats their thrown attacks as melee for attack benefits.

[FMArthur]

Isn't the resolution of the bullrush in an illegal square a source of confusion as to where you are, which the rules clarify? Where you place the miniature is where you actually are after you've bull rushed, and haven't engaged in any additional movement to be there.

[Geigan]

How has this not been linked yet?

Flaming Homer, the Bowling Ball of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22).

Also with that same question, King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5897646). Though both examples use psionics which may or may not mesh with the OP.

[Curmudgeon]

Isn't the resolution of the bullrush in an illegal square a source of confusion as to where you are, which the rules clarify? Where you place the miniature is where you actually are after you've bull rushed, and haven't engaged in any additional movement to be there. No, that can't be the case because bull rush explicitly requires entering the opponent's square. Relocating to the last legal space afterward represents real movement.

[Siosilvar]

From the Movement entry in Rules Compendium, page 90: When you put your miniature one square away from its previous position, that represents the creature has moved 5'.

I'd state the opposite: When the creature moves 5 feet, you move the miniature one square. "Miniatures or other tokens are used to represent and track creatures as they move." doesn't mean that every time you put the miniature somewhere it provokes attacks of opportunity along the whole path; what about teleportation?

Besides, what's to say the attacker is forced out of the square at all? Attacker moves into rushee's square. Rushee is pushed back 5 feet by attacker into wall/floor space. Rushee tries to go back to last legal square; attacker is there, so rushee gets put into another legal square nearby.

[hr]Bull Rush already provokes an attack of opportunity to initiate, why should it provoke two in a specific circumstance caused by somebody who's specialized in bull-rushing in this manner?

[Curmudgeon]

I'd state the opposite: When the creature moves 5 feet, you move the miniature one square. "Miniatures or other tokens are used to represent and track creatures as they move." doesn't mean that every time you put the miniature somewhere it provokes attacks of opportunity along the whole path; what about teleportation?
Movement provoking AoOs is a general rule, so it applies generally; you need explicit exceptions (such as for 5' steps) to not provoke. As for teleportation:
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. I guess you could provoke AoOs, but only creatures on the Astral Plane would be able to take advantage of them.

[Siosilvar]

Movement provoking AoOs is a general rule, so it applies generally; you need explicit exceptions (such as for 5' steps) to not provoke.

True. But nothing says that "put your miniature" means that the character actually moved at all during that time. I believe the typical fallacy goes along the lines of "the miniature represents the character; the character can't end turn in an illegal space; obviously, they were never in that illegal space to begin with!"

And again, Bull Rush already provokes an attack of opportunity to initiate, why should it provoke two in a specific circumstance caused by somebody who's specialized in bull-rushing in this manner?

[Zonugal]

I'm a big fan of utilizing Tome of Battle in such ways. Using Deepstone Sentinel and Bladestorm Blade can be fun. While you do lose out on picking up Knockback (and any other bonuses from being traditional large, although a half-minotaur, earth dwarf is still a legitimate option) you gain the ability to form walls for the purposes of Dungeoncrashing and flinging people into them with super-propelled spears of doom.

[Curmudgeon]

True. But nothing says that "put your miniature" means that the character actually moved at all during that time. I believe the typical fallacy goes along the lines of "the miniature represents the character; the character can't end turn in an illegal space; obviously, they were never in that illegal space to begin with!"
I've already refuted that argument. If the bull rush occurs when the enemy's adjacent to an obstacle, it's a requirement for the attacking character to enter the square that's illegal for them to end in. Relocating to the last legal space afterward necessarily represents real movement.

[Xaragos]

Knockback, a feat from Races of stone, is a wonderful little thing (one of the requirements is being large though). It lets you make a bull-rush on a power attacked strike - so that greatsword you'd be powerattacking with anyways? it now does a bull rush as well, using the bonus to damage you got on your damage roll as a bonus on your bull rush as well, so trading 5 points of attack bonus to get 10 damage? alkso a +10 on a free bull rush. plus, you don't need to follow the enemy, meaning you can send them soaring distances like 20 feat without even much optimization.



I have been told that since the Knockback feat initiates a bull rush via a power attack, that as per bull rush, you need to occupy their square and actually bull rush the opponent. I interpreted it the way you did as this negates the use of this feat with a reach weapon outright. Does anyone else have any further insight into this?

[Gwendol]

That's completely wrong. With knockback you use your large size to essentially knock people off their feet with your weapon swings. No moving into other peoples spaces at all. In fact, contrary to ordinary bull-rushing, you stay put while the opponent you just hit is pushed back X feet.

[Keld Denar]

D&D doesn't have facing, so directions that imply facing get pretty weird. But that doesn't look like it allows vertical movement. From Dictionary.com: Only if they're in the air and heading toward you will "straight back" be in the groundward direction. "Straight back" couldn't be derived from your (the attacker's) direction of movement, so it's got to be relative to the opponent. If they're moving on the ground you can bull rush them into a wall, but not into the ground.

Direction in this case is easy. Draw a line of action from the bullrusher through the bullrushee extended to infinity. Any square that that line of action passes through is "back", with regards to the rushee in the frame of reference of the rusher. You are trying to apply 2d rules to 3d motion. Even without facing, back is easy when you have two points.

And the rules for Knockback supersede the normal bullrush rules through explicit exception with regards to its use. Regardless of your personal interpretation of the bullrush rules and how they apply to movement, the rules for Knockback would work in the case of a person bullrushing a person into a wall or floor.

[Urpriest]

As for teleportation: I guess you could provoke AoOs, but only creatures on the Astral Plane would be able to take advantage of them.

Your quote only indicates that teleportation is travel through the Astral plane, but merely leaving a square is sufficient to provoke an AOO, you don't need to travel through it to do so.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Aside from flying to BR people into the ground, you could always just Use Magic Device a wand of Blockade, and keep said wand in a wand chamber in your weapon.

Blockade is a 1st level swift action spell (which, per Rules Compendium, is a swift action to use a wand of) from C.Scoundrel that creates a solid 5 ft cube of wood. Instant wall, and you still have your action for charging!

Wand Chamber is in Dungeonscape. Basically, any weapon or shield can have one, it lets you have the wand inside the chamber in your weapon/shield, and activate it from inside by pointing your weapon/shield like you would the wand. They're dirt cheap, only a few hundred gp, I think.