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View Full Version : An idea for a new caster class/wizard fix



Eldan
2011-05-27, 05:15 AM
I was reading about Vancian Magic in the "What do you like about D&D" thread. Some, like me, like the flavour of Vancian Magic, but many seem to think it's not perfectly implemented in the rules. That's fine.

So, I thought a little more about the fluff of Vancian magic as I see it. The short version is this:

A spell, in Vancian magic, is an incredibly complex construct of arcane energies. Casting it takes a long time; quiet, careful preparation and complex rituals. Wizards who expect that they will have to use magic on the fly, in battle, instead go about it a different way. Long before they have to cast their spell, often days in advance, they prepare and cast their spell, almost to the end. They then bind the spells in question in their heads, as a kind of potential energy, a pattern that wants to be released, but can't, thanks to the mental control of the wizard.

How does this work in mechanics?
First of all, many spells that are long-term buffs, mostly have out-of-combat applications or create permanent changes in something become rituals (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177176), so they will mostly be cast out of combat. I have already started to rewrite some of the core spells as rituals. (I've also changed the ritual mechanics quite a bit from what's been proposed in that thread).

Second, wizard casting would work like this: a wizard would, in his spell book, have any number of spells (or a limited amount, that's more of a balance question). However, they would only have a very limited amount of spells prepared at any one time, probably something like 2 spells at first level, and another one every two levels. (So, 3 at level 2, and so on).
Spells have two effects: they have, basically, a safe release, or minor form. Wizards can draw a bit of the magic energy of the spell in their head and unleash that for a small effect. These are your everyday combat applications. Using these does not release the spell from the wizard's memory, it is still prepared. Second, the wizard can choose to release the spell. This has a devastating effect, but removes the spell from the wizard's mind, so from then on, he can cast neither it's major nor minor effect until he has time to prepare a new spell, which takes a lot of time and can usually only be done in the wizard's off-time. This means that, essentially, the wizard gets only a handful of spells and has to carefully hoard them, but also gets, more or less, reserve feats included with every spell he learns.

Example: the wizard Barragor knows that he and his party will be facing a small warband of orcs, so he prepares the fireball spell. As they first meet a small group of orcs, the combat goes well for them. Barragor draws only a little on the spell's energy, blasting individual orcs with jets of flame.
However, as they encounter the warband's camp, the group's fighter accidentally alerts their sentries, meaning that now a full thirty orcs attack them, more than they can normally handle. Barragor unleashes the fireball bound in his head, incinerating nearly two thirds of the orcs in the flash. However, he now has no fire left until he has a few free hours to meditate and replenish his power.

There could be any number of complications added to this system. Binding a spell in your head is difficult. Maybe failing a concentration check means that a randomly chosen spell escapes from a wizard's head. Maybe casting a spell's minor form means that there is a chance for a spell escaping without the wizard wanting it. Perhaps releasing a spell fully fatigues a wizard.

Thoughts? It would require quite some work, essentially rewriting tons of spells. However, I think it would be worth it. The resource management of the wizard is unique, and I like it very much, for all it's flaws, and I think it should, in it's basics, be preserved in the game.

Rei_Jin
2011-05-27, 05:25 AM
I like the idea. It sounds like you'd tap the ideas that created the "Reserve" feats for the minor effects, or the alternate class features where appropriate. You would also severely reduce the number of spells in the system, because you don't need so many "Spells" when a bunch have become rituals, and the rest have been broken down into their components and reorganised into a system that isn't so easily broken.

Freylorn
2011-05-27, 05:45 AM
I honestly really like it. It would take a good amount of effort to balance properly, but I greatly enjoy the base concept behind it.

If you get the full system worked out, be sure to post it up. I'd love to give it a spin!

Eldan
2011-05-27, 06:23 AM
Well, I can probably write up the base mechanics pretty quickly. A decent selection of spells will take longer.

visigani
2011-05-27, 07:14 AM
Vancian Magic is dumb and should be purged.

Eldan
2011-05-27, 07:20 AM
Vancian Magic is dumb and should be purged.

What a supremely helpful answer.
As I said, I happen to like it and of all the many magic systems I know, I still think it's up there as one of the most flavourful rule systems. Certainly better than psionics boring points.
It's the only system I know that seems to make more than a token attempt to look "wizardly". This is not just a guy who bends space and time. This is a guy who does it methodically, with careful preparation.

Edit: I originally didn't want to post it until it was a bit farther along, but here's my current attempt at ritual magic
on google docs. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XbHakmf4Nk2SyBHQgdW5TuTpoFunhujIvwrofVgOXJ0/edit?hl=en_US)

Irreverent Fool
2011-05-27, 07:40 AM
I like the idea in theory. In practice though, won't it require a re-write of every spell that doesn't fall under the 'ritual' category?

This is where a lot of proposed magic fixes run into problems. It's not that there are problems with the ideas, but many players don't take to them simply because they end up limited to whichever spells have so far been converted.

visigani
2011-05-27, 07:46 AM
Fine, a helpful answer.


Caster level is used as a DC to cast a spell, with a bonus from your relevent ability score. Save DCs remain unchanged from the current rules.

The differences in the casters stem from their sources of power in that


Clerics and Domains: Clerics cast in a manner similar to "epic" spells. They have a host of spell seeds to accomplish a variety of effects. Spell Seeds that fall into the purview of their deities portfolio are easier to cast than spell seeds that are neutral or outright banned by the deity or philosophy.

For example, a "Cure Wounds" spell would invoke a simple seed, healing... a cure greater wounds spell would employ healing and another seed, such as "strengthen" i.e. "Strengthened Healing". Each would increase the DC necessary to cast the spell by a set amount. Each time you cast a spell your "Caster Level" decreases. In essence the personal power you use to manifest spells decreases. However, the potency of the spells themselves remain fairly constant. i.e. a "Greater Healing" spell would largely heal the same amount regardless of if you'd been reduced to a caster level of 2 or had a caster level of 20.... it would just be MUCH more difficult to cast that spell.


Further, if the "base" DC seed modifier of "Healing" was +3, a Cleric with a Healing Deity would increase the DC by +1 instead of +3.

A healing deity would have such seeds as Healing, Restore, Life, and so forth.

If that same Cleric of a healing deity wanted to make use of a seed that the deity opposed it would increase the DC... Harm would increase the DC by +6 rather than Healings +1.




Wizards: Wizards would have a set number of spell levels they could call upon from memory. Like X x Intelligence Modifier. These spells could be cast by making a successful roll against the Spells Caster DC. However, because they are memorized and not written down the Caster DC is increased, making it harder for the Wizard to cast the spell successfully.

Wizards would also be able to read and cast directly from spellbooks. These spellbooks would each have X number of pages and casting from them would not have the increased DC memorized spells would. However, they are preset and unmutable. They lack the kind of "on the Fly with every effect under the sun possible" with Clerics.



Sorcerers: Sorcerers have a complement of Pre-Fab spells similar to Wizards, but they may also make use of the same Spell Seeds Divine casters may, but pay a significant price in terms of how difficult it is to cast from those seeds.



Eh, tinker with it as you like... but this would provide a vastly more entertaining and creative system than the one currently provided.



tl;dr

Spellcasters must overcome a caster level DC to cast a spell. Each time the Spellcaster successfully casts a spell it reduces their Caster Level bonus modifier, thus decreasing their chances of successfully casting another spell.

Some Spellcasters have a great deal of versatility in that they may create, out of thin air, various spell effects similar to a "less than epic" spell seed system.



Divine Casters: Have reduced chance of failure when casting spell seeds from domains/portfolios of their chosen deity, and increased chance of failure when casting spell seeds that fall under the purview of an opposing deity or philosophy.



Wizards: May memorize a set number of spells to cast at will, but with a significant penalty. May make use of spellbooks and read from them without incurring the penalty to success that making use of spells you memorized would. You still reduce caster level whenever you cast a spell.


Sorcerers: Memorizes a set number of spells without the penalty wizards have, but may also make use of the Clerics "less than epic" spell seeds to produce a variety of effects. Casting in this fashion comes with significant penalties to success, however.


Hmm, even my tl;dr is kinda long.


Either way, it's a superior system and very easily integrated into what already exists. you'd need to tweak it to make the numbers jive jsut the way you like... but the most important parts have already been laid out.

Eldan
2011-05-27, 07:54 AM
That's probably a doable system, but, as I said, I like Vancian fluff. It works for me, and is very interesting. Your system loses most of that. There's no longer a chance of spells escaping from a Wizard's memory, which I always thought was a vast source of potential fluff.

visigani
2011-05-27, 08:06 AM
That's probably a doable system, but, as I said, I like Vancian fluff. It works for me, and is very interesting. Your system loses most of that. There's no longer a chance of spells escaping from a Wizard's memory, which I always thought was a vast source of potential fluff.



Actually, there's a SPECIFIC chance for a spell to escape a wizards memory.



Another thing that needs to be adjusted with magic is its reliance on hitpoint damage.


I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with hitpoint damage. Rather I would like to see magic deal damage almost exclusively to ability scores and physical weapons would do hitpoint damage.


For example, a fireball, rather than doing 5d6 points of hitpoint damage would do 1d6 Con Damage +1 per 5 Caster Levels, with a potential for 1d2 con damage per round if the creature catches fire.


Hold Person would Temporaliy Supress the Charisma Scores of targets by an amount equal to Caster level +10. This means a Third Level Cleric that cast Hold Person on a target would reduce their Charisma by 13... potentially binding them tight if they failed their Will Save.

visigani
2011-05-27, 08:26 AM
Fire: 1d6 Con + Chance of Con Damage
Cold: 1d6 Con + Chance of Dex Damage
Acid: 1d6 Con + Chance of Charisma Damage
Elec: 1d6 Con + Chance of Str Damage
Sonic: 1d4 Con + 1d6 Coherency Damage
Negative: 1d8 Con (vs. Living)
Positive: 1d8 Coherency (vs. Undead)
Force: Force alone still deals hit point damage


Fortitude of creatures without Fortitude: Objects, Constructs, Undead, and other creatures that formerly lacked a proper Fortitude Score now have a Fortitude Score. In relation to these creatures Fortitude measures how difficult something is to destroy before it becomes unable to function. However, these creatures each and all are immune to the secondary effects of energy damage, and have varying degrees of "Resilience"... DR vs. Energy Con Damage.


Reist Energy Spell: Resist Energy Spells bolsters a creatures Resilience against the Con damage and Secondary effect of a specific energy type.


For example Resist Energy cast by a low level caster would reduce the Con Damage taken from a Lightning Bolt by 2. A high level caster would reduce the Con damage taken from a lightning bolt by six.