Shadowrun Edition questions

[Gnoman]

Just got a box full of RPG manuals from work (nobody was buying them, and we were out of shelves), and there were a number of Shadowrun books. Having always been interested in the game, I'd like to know if anyone could break down the differences between the editions for me?

[comicshorse]

This are all based on my poor memory and are my opinion so YMMV

First: Clearly the worst. Mages ruled the world by having no restrictions on spell-locks, silly numbers of initiative passes were possible, combat was clunky.
Character creation was done by preference system

Second: Fixed most of the problems from first. Guns were standized, Initiative passes happened less often and mages were reigned in. Also gave Paranatural critters a chance in combat by giving them enhanced intiative.
Did kinda screw Physical Adepts over by overpricing their powers.

Third: the best IMHO, fixed some of the problems from second Ed but mainly the same.

Fourth: Big changes. Preference system is abandoned for a points buy system ( I hate points buy systems btw). Mage and Shaman are made more similair which solves the problem of Shamans being more powerful but loses what makes them unique and fun.

[LibraryOgre]

I'll disagree with Comicshorse, but only to a degree.

1st edition was, indeed, probably the worst mechanically. Overly complex and not easy to break down, with some large power disparities that they likely did not intend. However, it also had some of the best books written for it; Shadowtech, Shadowbeat, Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life, Paranormal Animals of North America. All very good and flavorful books, well worth getting just to read the source material.

2nd edition cleaned up the mechanics a lot, with fairly simple conversions from 1st. They also continued the example of good, flavorful sourcebooks. I sold several hundred dollars worth of Shadowrun stuff years ago... I've gone back to purchase 1st and 2nd edition books because of their readability. Stand-outs in this are Awakenings, Cybertechnology and Fields of Fire. Not coincidentally, all of them are almost half in-world essays about being a Shadowrunner. I would say this era also saw them moving away from the pure-punk neo-anarchist conception of shadowrunners and into the professional criminal, Oceans Eleven-style criminals, with the earlier conception somewhat mocked by the books I mentioned above.

3rd edition was, IMO, a bit of a let-down. While it had some nice ideas (I liked the separation of knowledge skills from regular skills), I felt that a lot of the flavor was sucked out of the sourcebooks; they became crunch-fests instead of great hunks of meat to sink your teeth into.

4e was, IMO, the best. While I agree with comicshorse about points systems (I really don't like them, and I wouldn't make a 4e character without a spreadsheet that auto-calced everything), I think the changes to the system at large made it much better, and I find it much easier to "wing" things in this system... declare a dice pool, make them roll hits. If it should be opposed, roll the opposing dice pool. Even if you, as a GM, are wrong on what the system would declare to be the proper rules, so long as you're consistent, the system works pretty well on that basis. Also, the introduction of the wireless matrix and the blending (though not complete merger) of hackers and riggers made those types of characters a LOT more attractive, both to a player and to a DM.

[Gnoman]

Thanks. My main concern was studying one edition, then having too much to unlearn when I studied a new edition that I liked better. After Star Fleet Battles, I don't want to have to go through that again.

[LibraryOgre]

Mechanics-wise, 1st edition was a meat-grinder, but 2nd and 3rd cleared a lot of that up, and conversion is pretty easy. From what I recall, 2nd and 3rd edition were about as compatible as 1e and 2e AD&D (i.e. so long as you picked which set of rules you were using, the sourcebooks between the two were more or less interchangeable).

4th edition is a big departure, to the point where you will HAVE to do significant work to make the crunch of earlier editions work with it... but it has a much better system, and one in which it's a bit easier to "wing" from a technological standpoint.

I did just think of something, however. The wireless matrix was actually presaged by riggers with their drones. Huh.

[fazzamar]

I agree what Mark said regarding the source books for the first and second editions ranked as the best source books in all the editions.
IMHO, the core books in Fourth edition (BBB, Street Magic, Unwired, Arsenal, and Augmentation), mechanically, are what make SR4 the best out of all of the editions. However, the quality of the writing/editing/balance in SR4 seems to sub par, especially lately, to the point that I have banned complete books, WAR! specifically, from my group.

[Escheton]

What precisely about WAR! made you ban it?
As far as I know it's one of the few sources with high rating gear.
Weapons specifically.

[Grommen]

I agree with everyone else here, oddly enough. I got into it at 2nd edition when they came out with the original 2nd edition hard cover collectors edition. Beautiful book by the way. I have nearly every 2nd and 3rd edition book and read them cover to cover several times. The books not only give you the technical data but they are the world. I loved that many of the "peanut gallery" went from book to book commenting. In a way it was the for runner for modern day message boards like this one.

The writing went down hill after FASA closed up and sold to FanPro and they decided to shut down 3rd edition and move to 4th. It's getting better, but I think some of their writers have moved on and the new ones just don't quite get it.

Now I have not read enough of 4th edition to have a complete opinion. What I did read though was good. In fact it is probably smother than the first three editions. However. FanPro and Catalyst have not found the sweet spot with the books. The 20th adversary and Seattle book for 4th edition are freekin works of art. But the flavor of the game is mechanical. And it's all about the tweeking. Now Shadowrun has always been about the crunch, but their was flavor behind it all. If you read the books, life in 2060 sucks! I just don't feel that with the new books.

[Swordguy]

What precisely about WAR! made you ban it?
As far as I know it's one of the few sources with high rating gear.
Weapons specifically.

The high rating gear is the problem. The system is explicitly designed around gear with Ratings of 1-6 (and 7 for incredibly rare, absolute bleeding edge gear that drops back down to Rating 6 after a month or so as the SOTA standard marches on). An attribute (generally between 1-6), a skill (between 1-6) and a bit of equipment (between 1-6) all are equally "weighted" the same in importance in how much they can contribute to your dice pool. Giving people unfettered access to Rating 10 gear as a matter of course weights the entire system toward the "gear" end of the power spectrum. You are what you buy, as it were.

Banning WAR! is, along with banning emotitoys and fixing StickN'Shock ammo, among the most common houserules in the game. We've (the Catalyst Demo Team) even been talking about banning WAR! in the official Shadowrun Missions play at conventions. Talking, I emphasize, not "doing"...yet.

[Nachtritter]

Just got a box full of RPG manuals from work (nobody was buying them, and we were out of shelves), and there were a number of Shadowrun books. Having always been interested in the game, I'd like to know if anyone could break down the differences between the editions for me?

Oh, man, you lucky sonnuvva... I would do many, many terrible things for a number of old Shadowrun books. I used to love that game in High School, and I still carry a candle for it now.

Anyways, everybody's been talking about the rules differences, but I feel the most important difference between the four editions is the tone each one carries, as so:

First Edition: Classic cyberpunk feel, you feel like you're crawling into a Willam Gibson novel. By this, I mean it it is fundamentally flawed and filled with futuristic angst and grit.

Second Edition: Much more polished. You've got a sense of grit and terrible angst, yes, but you also get the sense that that's just par for the course and that people are dealing with it rather than being generic punk rebels fighting THE MAN. Running's about the job more than anything else.

Third Edition: This is where the weird magic crap seeps in (which I am a fan of), making it less of a typical cyberpunk game and more of what Shadowrun is supposed to be - a world of the future where technology has advanced exceedingly far, only to be met on the opposite side by the sheer insanity of what magic can do. It felt easier to wander into a conspiracy around every corner, and while cyberpunk elements were still a heavy part of the storyline, so was the fact that the planet seemed hellbent on taking itself back.

Fourth Edition: It tries to capture the feeling of third edition, but it feels old and clunky somehow now - like maybe it's been too polished and streamlined. While the old elements are still there, it still feels like a game that's trying too hard.

[jjpickar]

As someone who discovered Shadowrun from the other end (my first book was the 20th Anniversary book) I can say that the fluff isn't that bad. My first reaction was that they totally ripped off the sprawl trilogy and added elves to hide the fact. Not that I think thats a bad thing but I've talked to a lot of people who think Gibsonian elements and feel have been burned out of the 4th edition. While the computers don't have wires (or tape decks:smalltongue:) the world is a crazy mishmash of cultures playing virtual sardines while Monstrous Corporations (and anyone else with enough money and magical juju) play at being Gods. More than anything else, the characters feel small. Just as in Neuromancer where Case, the protagonist Hacker for those who haven't read it, feels almost replaceable in the shadow of the other giants commanding cyber ninjas and building orbital asylums. This is what always fascinated me about Shadowrun, in a world dominated by impossibly powerful dragons, AIs, and AAAs there are enough shadows for a dishonest, slightly crazy anarchist to make a few NuYens and shoot some corporate stooges. I think that, while there may have been considerable system changes from 1st to 4th, this essential fact has not been lost.

[Talakeal]

Anyone else notice that Paranormal Creatures of North America predicted Schwarzenegger's political career?

[TheOOB]

I personally think 4e is the best, though to be fair I only played a little 3e, and only read the 1e book(never touched 2e). I agree character creation can be a bit of a beast. 4e's priority system is pretty bad, the BP system takes awhile and encourages twinkery, and the karma system needs house rules to be workable, but with the right houserules it's pretty good, albeit long. This works as shadowrun characters are more detailed and personalized than characters in other systems, and I made my own custom character sheets and spread sheets to help me make a character(If anyone wants em I'll post em).

The 4e system(or 4A i think we're on) is a good system that allows a lot of flexibility, but doesn't have a great deal of rules weirdness. While there is a lot of detail, it's mostly easy to understand, and most characters only need to know a few of the subsystems(GMs don't have it so easy natch). If you do play 4e, make sure your GM knows the rules well, because not knowing the rules well can cause problems, as has been said on dumpshock "GM's who don't understand the magic system make it more powerful, GM's who don't understand the matrix system make it less"

[comicshorse]

Anyone else notice that Paranormal Creatures of North America predicted Schwarzenegger's political career?

And the first Universal Brotherhood adventure predicted it would end in scandal

[Dimers]

Banning WAR! is, along with banning emotitoys and fixing StickN'Shock ammo, among the most common houserules in the game.

If you'll pardon the thread derailment -- tell me more about fixing Stick'n'Shock. I feel a little shame about how bad I've been abusing that ammunition.

[Anderlith]

I've played 2nd & 4th.

Second was really fun but seemed a little broken.
Fourth is really the best in my opinion. Everything works well together, & they explain every rule & don't leave you wondering how to implement rules & abilities

Shadowrun is great if you watch Johnny Mnemonic, & Bladerunner, in fact, if Johnny Mnemonic could easily be Shadowrun if it had Trolls & fireballs,

[Occasional Sage]

Ohgodi'dforgottenthesr1emechanicsohgod!

[LibraryOgre]

Ohgodi'dforgottenthesr1emechanicsohgod!

You mean the ridiculously specialized assassins with Streetline specials who relied on getting so many staging bonuses that no human could ever survive?

[Occasional Sage]

Staging was a particularly egregious problem for 1e, yeah.

[Swordguy]

If you'll pardon the thread derailment -- tell me more about fixing Stick'n'Shock. I feel a little shame about how bad I've been abusing that ammunition.

Sorry for the response delay - Origins happened.

As mentioned, SNS is pants-on-head-retardedly good. The usual response is to ban it entirely, or equip EVERY NPC (even totally naked ones) with Rating 400 electrical dampening. This happens occasionally even in official Shadowrun:Missions play.

A slightly more rational response is to not allow the electrical damage that SNS does to stage up at all. The fluff says that the SNS ammo uses a capacitor in the ammo itself. It only stands to reason that the capacitor can only put out the amount of current it puts out an no more - thus it's only going to do 6(e) no matter HOW many successes you get on the roll. The Drop N Twitch secondary effect is also mitigated by this, since IIRC the roll to avoid it is based on the damage dealt. If you stage the damage all the way to zero with SNS, there's no further penalty to the target character. Done. Still useful (but since a taser can stage with this, there's a reason to carry the taser now), but not totally broken.

[Seb Wiers]

That still leaves open (or even magnifies) questions about burst / full auto guns firing SNS rounds. If each round does base damage, rather than staging up...

Unrelated, restricting SNS to shotgun rounds, and reducing the range (its got to be a low velocity round to work the way its written) are also popular options.
A SNS modded netgun round would be realistic and potentially very effective (if short ranged). (Do they still have netguns in SR4? I loved using the SR2 version.) Just an idea...