Wu Jen/Shugenja - no love?

[Heliomance]

It's strange, I've never seen these classes mentioned on the boards, I've not seen any handbooks for them, it's like they don't even exist. They're both full casters, they can't be that bad. How come no-one ever talks about them?

[LibraryOgre]

Generally, because they're a bit more niche; most of what you want to do with a wu jen or shugenja can be done with a wizard or cleric, so why bother with another book?

[Forged Fury]

Wu Jen: Wu Jen have some okay class features beyond their spells. Generally speaking though, iconic Wu Jen spells are not very good. For instance, look at the scarf series of spells and realize that almost all of them require a normal ranged attack roll, not a ranged touch attack. You have poor BAB. It sucks to waste spells. Wizards generally do whatever the Wu Jen can do, but better.

Shugenja: Just look at the Shugenja's Class Table. Look at it again. Take note of the vast wasteland under "Special" where interesting class features normally fall. Ignoring the misaligned spells/day chart, would you play that?

[FMArthur]

One thing I never see described is the particular role as spellcasters they play, and as a consequence I don't even know what the classes are for. Do they blast, buff, debuff, heal, summon, inform, etc? In what ways are they different from other spellcasters? What makes them special, and why should a player want to play them?

Like the Binder, their class descriptions don't give you the information you would need before you could even know if you want to play one or not. You just have to root through all their spells yourself and build a character just to know what they do at any given level, and that's not an appealing prospect when their class features seem basically the same as classes which you would already be familiar with.

They apparently have a handful of unique spells, but only Giant Size is ever paid any attention.

[Heliomance]

Giant Size is utterly hilarious, as is Transcend Mortality from Complete Mage.




Shugenja: Just look at the Shugenja's Class Table. Look at it again. Take note of the vast wasteland under "Special" where interesting class features normally fall. Ignoring the misaligned spells/day chart, would you play that?
You mean... the Special column that has exactly as much in it as a Cleric or Sorcerer, and only slightly less than a Wizard?

[Forged Fury]

They apparently have a handful of unique spells, but only Giant Size is ever paid any attention.
Because it's awesome (in a fun way). Incidentally, I think Cleric can pick this up as a Domain spell.

[HappyBlanket]

I was just thinking that very thing about Wu Jens when I picked up the book. I mean, even before I started getting books I knew of a few dozen base/prestige classes outside core from the forums, but Wu Jen was the one thing I'd never heard of before. And when someone first showed me a tier ranking, the Wu Jen wasn't even listed on it.

"Like they don't even exist" is a perfect way to describe it. But the fact that their roles are so easily replicated with core classes seems like a good reason for it; with classes like wizard and cleric so readily available, why bother with a whole new class?

[Jude_H]

Shugenja is kind of neat for being a PC class that can get into Hexer, and for matching its key attribute. Other entry options involve a lot more DM-sweet talking.

Wu Jen should have been packaged as a Wizard variant. It's basically identical, but with less explicit splatbook support.

[Amphetryon]

Shugenja (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4367.0) gets a little love (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8441636&postcount=109).

[HappyBlanket]

Shugenja (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4367.0) gets a little love (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8441636&postcount=109).

I'm not sure if that 2nd link is really necessary.

[ILM]

My main beef with these classes is the lack of cross-book support. Wu-jens are supposed to be focused on the elements; you'd think they'd be good elemental-damage blasters. Yet all they have in exchange for a restricted spell list is some free metamagic to one spell, and that's pretty much it. No damage increase, no DC boost, nothing. Worse, there's about a gazillion elemental spells in all the splatbooks that aren't on their list. Spell Compendium tried, and IMO failed, to correct that satisfactorily.

[Forged Fury]

Spell Compendium tried, and IMO failed, to correct that satisfactorily.
I wouldn't even say it really tried. It specifically re-printed spells that were on the Wu Jen spell list but didn't identify any of them as Wu Jen spells. It did give pointers on how to add spells to a Wu jen's spell list, but that's pretty weak, IMO. Other than Complete Arcane, I think Complete Mage was the only other splat that really focused on adding spells to the Wu jen.

[JaronK]

At the end of the day those classes have the Sorcerer problem: they're solid classes, but why not just play a Wizard? They basically do the same thing as a Wizard only worse, and that makes them much less attractive.

JaronK

[the clumsy bard]

Wujen get a little love.

It takes a prestige class, but hey I think it's fun, although it can be done with a wizard too... minus the spell secret stuff.

Here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870578/X-mens_Jean_Grey,_or_how_to_be_silly_with_MotUH)

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I really don't see any reason at all why the Wu Jen shouldn't have been a Wizard in the first place. The Shugenja and Shaman were arguably at least different enough from the Cleric and Druid to warrant their inclusion.

Pretty much all of the non-core casters suffered from a lack of spell support.

If you 3.P, Ultimate Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic) has the rules for 5 Elemental Wizard specialists; just add whatever Wu Jen spells you fancy to the Wizard list and you're off to the races.

[Kaeso]

I agree with the OP, especially about Wu Jen. They don't even have a handbook, and pretty much every class (from the allmighty wizard to the lowly healer) has at least a half-decent handbook.

[Forged Fury]

I agree with the OP, especially about Wu Jen. They don't even have a handbook, and pretty much every class (from the allmighty wizard to the lowly healer) has at least a half-decent handbook.It's odd too, because Wu Jen actually have a few class features and a few published feats that could help from a handbook, not to mention their unique spells.

P.S. Decapitating Scarf has to be one of the best, worst spells ever.

[Tvtyrant]

Everytime I look at Wu Jens I think the word "Persist" in the back of my head.

[Amphetryon]

I agree with the OP, especially about Wu Jen. They don't even have a handbook, and pretty much every class (from the allmighty wizard to the lowly healer) has at least a half-decent handbook.

And I said unto the forums: why hast thou sent nobody to compose a Wu Jen Handbook in all this time?

And the forums answered: We did. We sent you.

:smallwink:

[Rejakor]

I <3 the Wu Jen. The spells are fantastic for iterating a very eastern magic user, which is the idea, but so rarely do they actually manage to succeed at that kind of thing. Kiss of the Toad, Storm of Needles, Spirit Needles, Decapitating Scarf... it's definitely a tier 3 caster, but it has a very unique feel compared to a sorcerer or wizard.

[true_shinken]

I <3 the Wu Jen. The spells are fantastic for iterating a very eastern magic user, which is the idea, but so rarely do they actually manage to succeed at that kind of thing. Kiss of the Toad, Storm of Needles, Spirit Needles, Decapitating Scarf... it's definitely a tier 3 caster, but it has a very unique feel compared to a sorcerer or wizard.

I dunno, I'd rate them at tier 2.

[Amphetryon]

I dunno, I'd rate them at tier 2.

Wu Jen seems to sit in the middle of Tier 2 for most folks, provided they don't consider loredrake shadowcraft mages as the baseline for Tier 1, whereas Shugenja is either the bottom of Tier 2 or the pinnacle of Tier 3.

[Psyren]

1) Wu Jen are definitely T2. Not as versatile as the Wizard, but they are still SAD and get big offenders like Polymorph, Rope Trick and both Wishes. Spell Compendium's recommendations push them even higher.

2) They make fantastic gishes. The BAB boost helps their array of "attack roll" spells, and their signature spells like Body Outside Body and Giant Size benefit greatly from having strong melee abilities.

3) I can't think of any better way to have a true "Jade Phoenix Mage" than starting with such an eastern base. The flavor synergy is a huge draw, at least for me.

[Zaq]

Wu Jen seems to sit in the middle of Tier 2 for most folks, provided they don't consider loredrake shadowcraft mages as the baseline for Tier 1, whereas Shugenja is either the bottom of Tier 2 or the pinnacle of Tier 3.

Going strictly from theorycraft (having never seen either in play), I'd put Wu Jen at a low T2, probably above the Wilder but definitely below the Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, and Psion. They do get plenty of good tricks (hence T2), but their limited spell lists work against them.

Shugenja are really hard to place. I'd almost put them around high T4 (perhaps on Warmage level), since they're really limited in what they can do (their spell list is insultingly tiny, and the fact that they have to ban an element means that they pretty much always have to shut themselves off from at least one important part of a good caster's repertoire). They don't seem to have the "eh, I can always find something to do to contribute" that is the hallmark of T3. I'd equate them to the Warmage . . . 9th level spells with even a few gems among them, but much too narrow to be a proper T3. I repeat that this is strictly looking at them on paper, and if anyone with actual game experience were to contradict me, I'd offer no argument.

Anyway, if I were into book-casters, I could see myself playing a Wu Jen, just because they're less crazy powerful than the Wizard and the Archivist. I do love the flavor of the Metal element, even if its spells don't tend to be awesomely useful in practice (Decapitating Scarf being the poster child for this, but all the needle-based spells are like it as well. Magnetism, on the other hand, seems genuinely useful and awesome).

Shugenja . . . I feel like the Shugenja is just one not-too-major tweak away from being perfectly useful (if still not as good as a Sorcerer), but I don't know what that tweak would be. I really do feel like they're very close, though. An expanded spell list would be a good start, of course, but I don't think it's necessarily the only option.

[Shade Kerrin]

Wu Jen's problem is, as stated, that it lives in the shadow of the Wizard. It can do things as well as a wizard, but doesn't have as many tricks. As I remember, it is the weakest of all the prepared full caster classes, but it is still a prepared full caster class. It does stand on much firmer ground than the Shugenja, since it does have a few unique tricks that no class can replicate(at least, no class except those that explicitly steal things from other classes - artificer and so forth), and some of them do indeed have more than just style to their name(Giant size: Best. Size increaser. Ever.), but as long as the wizard continues to exist, the Wu Jen is doomed to being second choice.

I'm personally quite a fan of it, though.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Shugenja get a lot of love......In D20 Rokugan. Seriously, though. In D20 Rokugan the Shugenja is provided many more options, including a whole "spell compendium" of a large size devoted to simply giving them new spells. They also get better "orders" and even variants like the soultwister shugenja that uses "orders" based on the various planes of the Rokugan afterlife as appose to specific elements.

The main issue with the shugenja, however, is poor design. The shugenja, you see, was not made to be played alongside the standard casters. If you read OA you will find the shugenja was made with the Rokugan setting in mind, a setting where they are the ONLY fullcaster class. Thus, the class was built to be able to fill all the traditional caster rolls, but not all at once because that would be too powerful. So, they basically designed each element to be a traditional "caster" roll. A fire Shugenja is the "blaster," a water is a shugenja is the "healer," the earth shugenja is the "buffer" and the air shugenja is your typical "controller" caster. The issue is while it can fill these rolls, it fills them poorly and thus you get a limited spell selection and no class features, as their spell selection was purposely limited to make sure that they could not fill multiple "archtypes" at once.

I am starting to make a class that is meant to do what the shugenja was built to do but unlike the shugenja actually can fill those rolls well. It dose so via spheres that have a collection of spells and class features. It's primary sphere determines it's class features and "roll" and eventually I plan on sorting every spell in the game into a sphere. The class is a MAJOR WIP though, and ultimately I want it to lose Vacian casting, run on a mana system and make it a class that will function as a replacement for all fullcasters, rather then a class to be played beside them. It needs a LOT of help so if anybody is interested in lending me a hand please, check the last link in my sig.

[Urpriest]

I see Wu Jen bandied about a lot by people looking for creative options. It comes up every once in a while in Iron Chef for example. They can do a lot of what Wizards can do, just less well, so a lot of builds get a little more interesting and not much weaker with a dash of Wu Jen.

Shugenja comes up less often, but since it's generally considered Tier 3 it will occasionally be proposed as a Cleric substitute in a T3-verse. It's not ideal for this however, for reasons that have already been pointed out.

[Curmudgeon]

Because it's awesome (in a fun way). Incidentally, I think Cleric can pick this up as a Domain spell.
Not that I know. Maybe you're confusing two separate domain systems. Clerics have no access to those Oriental Adventures Shaman domains, and Shamans have no access to Clerical domains.

Of course Clerics can always duplicate Giant Size with Miracle.

[Big Fau]

Of course Clerics can always duplicate Giant Size with Miracle.

That seems like such a waste of a Miracle though. Even Rita Repulsa could think of better things to do with a Miracle than make CoDzilla grow.

[Coidzor]

It's strange, I've never seen these classes mentioned on the boards, I've not seen any handbooks for them, it's like they don't even exist. They're both full casters, they can't be that bad. How come no-one ever talks about them?

No WOTC support. Their parents didn't even love 'em.

[Heliomance]

That seems like such a waste of a Miracle though. Even Rita Repulsa could think of better things to do with a Miracle than make CoDzilla grow.

Oh, I don't know. As long as you have enough space, Giant Size is one of the best buffs around for a beat-it-in-the-face cleric. +32 size bonus to strength? That's amazing. DMM Persist a Miracle for it, absolutely worth it.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

No WOTC support. Their parents didn't even love 'em.

Shugenja did get an entire book, though, if you're willing to accept AEG. Book and a half if you count the d20 portion of Way of the Shugenja.

[Psyren]

No WOTC support. Their parents didn't even love 'em.

Not precisely true; Spell Compendium boosts both of these classes considerably. The primary benefits are subject to DM approval, but at least the suggestion comes from WotC and should thus carry weight at the gaming table.

Besides, they're only weak compared to high-tier casting classes. A Shugenja can still mop the floor with any number of Monks and Barbarians, never mind what a Wu Jen can do.

[Munchkin-Masher]

The thing about Wu Jen and Shugenja is that they're basically just the Wizard and the Cleric, only a little bit worse.

So there's not much of a reason to use them, not even for fluff reason as you can just fluff your wizard or cleric however you want.

[Tokuhara]

Wu Jen: I prefer them to Wizards, since they have what Wizard lacks: creative play. Remember: Wu Jen have Taboos they must follow. Granted, some of these can cause problems, but some can have some interesting rp effects, such as since you always sit facing West, you notice the assassin sneaking up behind the Quest-Giver.

[OverdrivePrime]

Wu Jen: I prefer them to Wizards, since they have what Wizard lacks: creative play. Remember: Wu Jen have Taboos they must follow. Granted, some of these can cause problems, but some can have some interesting rp effects, such as since you always sit facing West, you notice the assassin sneaking up behind the Quest-Giver.

Well, to that point, it's always just as easy to RP that sort of thing with your wizard, bard or whatever.

I still love Wu Jens (Wu Djinn? :smallconfused:), mainly for the fun spell list and spell secrets, but if you're going for pure power, you'll pale next to a wizard. I tend to play them like Mako's character from Conan the Barbarian.

[NNescio]

Well, to that point, it's always just as easy to RP that sort of thing with your wizard, bard or whatever.

I still love Wu Jens (Wu Djinn? :smallconfused:), mainly for the fun spell list and spell secrets, but if you're going for pure power, you'll pale next to a wizard. I tend to play them like Mako's character from Conan the Barbarian.

It's Chinese （巫人） for "Sorcerer" or "Shaman Person". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_%28shaman%29) The romanization is in Wade-Giles instead of the more familiar Pinyin though. The latter would write it as "Wū Rén". The j/r in Jen/Ren has a pronunciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_retroflex_fricative) similar to 'z' and 'r' slurred together.

[OverdrivePrime]

Clearly, I need to put more ranks in Perform (Lame Puns). :smallsigh:

[Thurbane]

Like the Binder, their class descriptions don't give you the information you would need before you could even know if you want to play one or not.
I've never heard that complaint about the Binder before...I would imagine because it's such an adaptable class, depending on what vestige(s) you bind you could fill almost any party role...

The Binder also has more fluff and background text than just about any other class in the game.

[Veyr]

Regarding Wu Jen's tier: isn't it a prepared caster with a spellbook a la Wizard? I mean, unless they literally only have one decent spell load-out possible, that should be enough to make them a (weak) Tier 1, since they do get access to some game-breaking effects (like Polymorph).

I mean, Tier 1's are pretty much defined by the ability to change their class features every day to meet whatever comes up. The Wu Jen seems like it can do that, even if it doesn't have the option to prepare some of the most powerful of Arcane spells...

[OverdrivePrime]

Yeah, but the Wu Jen's spell list is considerably more limited than the Wizard's. Sure, a wu jen can research wizard spells, but that costs time & money. Additionally, you're a lot less likely to just happen across a wu jen spell scroll during regular play, so you need a DM who's looking out for you.

[Big Fau]

The Binder also has more fluff and background text than just about any other class in the game.

That's why. Wu-Jen ann Shugenja have less than 4 pages of fluff text, and one of those two is little more than a Wizard reflavored to have an Oriental theme.


There's just nothing else there...

[FMArthur]

I've never heard that complaint about the Binder before...I would imagine because it's such an adaptable class, depending on what vestige(s) you bind you could fill almost any party role...

The Binder also has more fluff and background text than just about any other class in the game.

Them having tons and tons of fluff and background text is almost a problem when you're first learning about pact magic, because it all tells you what their powers come from, but not what they might do. My first assumption was that the class was a Spirit Shaman-esque spellcasting class, not a pick-a-role-to-fill-every-day class. The organization of the vestiges and lack of a brief, explanatory list (like the short spell lists casters get before spell descriptions) made it hard to know what a Binder's purpose was until I built one.

The Truenamer was worse, its casting mechanics being distributed sparsely between flavour text and was still vague enough that you have to read through all the utterances to know what they do.

The Wu Jen and Shugenja are part of that same pattern: the class description explains how they do stuff, but not what they do.

[Tokuhara]

Them having tons and tons of fluff and background text is almost a problem when you're first learning about pact magic, because it all tells you what their powers come from, but not what they might do. My first assumption was that the class was a Spirit Shaman-esque spellcasting class, not a pick-a-role-to-fill-every-day class. The organization of the vestiges and lack of a brief, explanatory list (like the short spell lists casters get before spell descriptions) made it hard to know what a Binder's purpose was until I built one.

The Truenamer was worse, its casting mechanics being distributed sparsely between flavour text and was still vague enough that you have to read through all the utterances to know what they do.

The Wu Jen and Shugenja are part of that same pattern: the class description explains how they do stuff, but not what they do.

That's why for them I read OA first, then CAr/CD

[Psyren]

I've never heard that complaint about the Binder before...I would imagine because it's such an adaptable class, depending on what vestige(s) you bind you could fill almost any party role...

The Binder also has more fluff and background text than just about any other class in the game.

In a way he's right. Binder has a massive learning-curve, and you basically have to read the entire vestige section to know what your options even are at a given level, never mind which options are optimal.

For us it's not so bad because there are handbooks and such out for it - but that is due to a good gaming community rather than good splat design, and many players and DMs don't read message boards at all.

[Tvtyrant]

They are still easier to read then the Incarnum stuff. I just found out yesterday that you can only put 4 (8 with Totemist) essentia in any one meld. Ugh.

[Veyr]

The Incarnate class feature, the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat, and the Totem Chakra class feature all up that, though. That is primarily to make Incarnum useful to people who take the feats, while still giving a (very sizeable) edge to those who take actual Incarnum classes).

[Kantolin]

while still giving a (very sizeable) edge to those who take actual Incarnum classes).

Poor Soulborns ^_^

[Darth Stabber]

Poor Soulborns ^_^

Soulborn are not an actual incarnum class, so that doesn't really affect them.

[Big Fau]

Soulborn are not an actual incarnum class, so that doesn't really affect them.

The proper term is Meldshaper. And Soulborns are NPC Meldshapers, similar to the Adept.

[Zale]

Then.. why is the class called Soulborn and not Meldshaper?

[Veyr]

Meldshaper is the generic term for a class that uses Incarnum, same way "spellcaster" is a generic term for a class that uses Spells.

[Psyren]

Then.. why is the class called Soulborn and not Meldshaper?

Soulborns are a weak PC Incarnum class. Darth and Fau's comments seem to me to be a sarcastic/facetious reference to the Soulborn's very poor use of Incarnum compared to its two counterparts. (For instance, Soulborns don't get a single meld until level 4 and no chakra binds until 8.)

[Zale]

So before then, they're restricted to whacking things? Ouch.

[Big Fau]

So before then, they're restricted to whacking things? Ouch.

Until then, they play like a weaker Paladin (the Soulborn's Divine Grace replacement is nigh useless, as it doesn't actually boost your saves).

And the only reason it's like that is because it has Full BAB with Meldshaping abilities. WotC places far too much value on BAB and HD.

[Coidzor]

Soulborns are a weak PC Incarnum class. Darth and Fau's comments seem to me to be a sarcastic/facetious reference to the Soulborn's very poor use of Incarnum compared to its two counterparts. (For instance, Soulborns don't get a single meld until level 4 and no chakra binds until 8.)

Aren't they also known for having less meldshaping than a character without any levels in a meldshaping class who just spent all of their feats on meldshaping? Like a commoner.

[Darth Stabber]

Until then, they play like a weaker Paladin (the Soulborn's Divine Grace replacement is nigh useless, as it doesn't actually boost your saves).

And the only reason it's like that is because it has Full BAB with Meldshaping abilities. WotC places far too much value on BAB and HD.

If you play with JaronK's tier based gestalt system, they are a class to remember, as Full BAB, d10 hit die, and smattering of special abilities are decent on the right build. And they are a ton of fun when combined with soulknife.

[Big Fau]

If you play with JaronK's tier based gestalt system, they are a class to remember, as Full BAB, d10 hit die, and smattering of special abilities are decent on the right build. And they are a ton of fun when combined with soulknife.

Being a very pragmatic person, I find that particular combo underwhelming. And the Soulborn suffers from 1/2 Meldshaper level, which means they can't overcome SR with their soulmelds (and most of their offense-oriented soulmelds allow SR).


Really, you are better off with Totemist or Incarnate in Gestalt. You lose out on the BAB, but you make up for it in the soulmelds.

[Darth Stabber]

Just read over the soulborn's meld list, and you are right, dang.

I allow players in my normal games to gestalt together 5th and 6th tier classes as one character class (except for fighter and pally given their decent pcr options and other splat support) provided they don't go into dual progression classes or similar shenanigans (dipping also not allowed, you must take atleast 4 lvls if you are going to do it). No one has taken me up on it yet, I guess the samurmonk is no one's cup of tea.

Honestly all of the OA exports from the first 4 completes are just terrible, name one that isn't a joke. Its a wonder that there still was a rokugan for the roll and keep system to return to.

[stainboy]

Shukenja have an interesting niche. They have some druid spells, some mind effects, and a "domain list" (can't remember what their domains are called). Outside of OE they'd be a decent choice for a fey-powered sorcerer or a hedge witch. I don't know why the hedge witch has a masterwork short sword, but hey, I'll take it.


Aren't they also known for having less meldshaping than a character without any levels in a meldshaping class who just spent all of their feats on meldshaping? Like a commoner.

The commoner opens chakras faster than the soulborn but has fewer melds known and a smaller essentia pool. If you want to be bad at incarnum, both Soulborn and Commoner are valid choices. Yay balance!

[Darth Stabber]

Being a very pragmatic person, I find that particular combo underwhelming. And the Soulborn suffers from 1/2 Meldshaper level, which means they can't overcome SR with their soulmelds (and most of their offense-oriented soulmelds allow SR).


Really, you are better off with Totemist or Incarnate in Gestalt. You lose out on the BAB, but you make up for it in the soulmelds.

The gestalt. systen I was referring to allows you to gestalt based on the tier of your primary class. The higher the tier of your primary class the lower the tier of the other class. Tier 1 I do not believe is allowed to gestalt at all.

[Psyren]

Shukenja have an interesting niche. They have some druid spells, some mind effects, and a "domain list" (can't remember what their domains are called).

Shugenja "domains" are called Orders, e.g. Order of the Gentle Rain.

Typically you want to pick one perpendicular to your chosen element (e.g. you would only pick Gentle Rain, which is full of Water-based healing magic, if you were neither Water nor Fire - it is redundant for the former and useless for the latter.)


Outside of OE they'd be a decent choice for a fey-powered sorcerer or a hedge witch. I don't know why the hedge witch has a masterwork short sword, but hey, I'll take it.

They combo nicely with dragons too, specifically some of the options in RotD e.g. (Dragonborn) Spellscales and Singer of Concordance.

[cfalcon]

Shugenja are meant as stand-alone Rokugan casters, that is why. In Rokugan, I think they might be the only damned casters. Certainly, your Shegenja can be more clericy or more sorcerery.


The net effect is that they are relatively versatile, have a wide variety of magic in theory available, and you must pare this down. I consider them a very well done caster, but remember, they were really meant to fulfill a niche, not actually compete with clerics (who weren't present in their setting), or even really wizards, wu-jun, and maybe not even sorcerers.

I suspect that most people have this idea that most games are a grab-bag of stuff, and that anything will be (or should be) legal, so that's why there's no how-to shugenja guide: if you have all these other classes, especially core classes, available, you aren't going to be going for these dudes, because you can build your concept better mechanically a different way.

Anyway, shugenja are really cool.

[Amphetryon]

Shugenja are meant as stand-alone Rokugan casters, that is why. In Rokugan, I think they might be the only damned casters. Certainly, your Shegenja can be more clericy or more sorcerery.


The net effect is that they are relatively versatile, have a wide variety of magic in theory available, and you must pare this down. I consider them a very well done caster, but remember, they were really meant to fulfill a niche, not actually compete with clerics (who weren't present in their setting), or even really wizards, wu-jun, and maybe not even sorcerers.

I suspect that most people have this idea that most games are a grab-bag of stuff, and that anything will be (or should be) legal, so that's why there's no how-to shugenja guide: if you have all these other classes, especially core classes, available, you aren't going to be going for these dudes, because you can build your concept better mechanically a different way.

Anyway, shugenja are really cool.

Point of order: the Shugenja Handbook was already linked.

[Forged Fury]

Point of order: the Shugenja Handbook was already linked.Correct, it's Wu Jen that sadly lacks a guide.

[Psyren]

Correct, it's Wu Jen that sadly lacks a guide.

Pick any wizard guide, and simply skip the spells Wu Jen don't get. Sprinkle with Wu Jen-only shenanigans (e.g. Trascend Mortality threads) and season to taste.

[Amphetryon]

Pick any wizard guide, and simply skip the spells Wu Jen don't get. Sprinkle with Wu Jen-only shenanigans (e.g. Trascend Mortality threads) and season to taste.

Wu Jen's built-in reroll mechanic can also lead to amusing luck build shenanigans.

[Pechvarry]

I can't think of any better way to have a true "Jade Phoenix Mage" than starting with such an eastern base. The flavor synergy is a huge draw, at least for me.

Thanks for the reminder. I had intended to run a Warblade/Wu Jen/JPM at some point as a sort of magical samurai. I got sidetracked when I started thinking through the amazing ramifications of Body Outside Body and my build quickly turned into a monstrosity wrought for campaign-breaking.

I think sufficient time has passed for me to settle on a more thematic and less ridiculous build: casting in medium armor and grabbing a bunch of the Watchful Spirit feats. Still sufficient to rock any tier 3 game.

And in that I guess I have an answer to Wu Jen's strength: like wizards, you can make poor level advancement choices and still be good if your spell selection is tight.

EDIT: Wu Jen can get into Mage of the Arcane Order. That always seemed significant to me, as it should technically give them access to any wizard spells they can't normally cast.

[Cog]

EDIT: Wu Jen can get into Mage of the Arcane Order. That always seemed significant to me, as it should technically give them access to any wizard spells they can't normally cast.
Only the PHB ones, actually, not even anything in the same book as MotAO without specific DM permission.

Edit: Granted, that's still apparently nearly 200 spells...

[MeeposFire]

Only the PHB ones, actually, not even anything in the same book as MotAO without specific DM permission.

Edit: Granted, that's still apparently nearly 200 spells...

And some of the more powerful spells.