An Idea to Tone Down Arcane Casters (3.5)

[wayfare]

I am running an Incarnum game in the next few weeks, but one of my players is being difficult and wants to play an arcane caster -- an innovator in a world where magic is usually represented by incarnum.

I love the idea -- this player is essentially the guy who "invents" arcane magic in the setting. But compared to the other players (who are either playing incarnum classes or melee characters), this guy is going to be a total powerhouse.

So, in order to tone his magic down, I'm applying a few guidelines that I came up with a while ago but never really put to the test. I hope some of you will give me some fresh critiques on these ideas.

Spell Slots

This is an idea that I've pitched here once before. Essentially, every time you gain a level as a caster, you gain 2 Spell Slots. A spell slot can hold a 1st level spell. Higher level spells require a number of spell slots equal to their spell level to memorize.

Thus, a 5th level wizard has 10 spell slots. He could memorize 5 1st level spells, 1 2nd level spell, and 1 3rd level spell or he could memorize 1 1st level spell and 3 3rd level spells at the beginning of his day.

Specialization

I have also developed a more extreme form of specialization. Essentially, you gain no special benefits from being a specialist wizard (all arcane spellcasters are specialists in my setting). From levels 1-6, you can learn spells from any school. At level 7+, you can only learn spells from your specialty school of magic.

New Spells

When a mage gains a level, he automatically gains 1 spell of a level that he can cast. Learning additional new spells requires a number of days of study equal to the spell level, and a Successful Spellcraft check each day for that day of study to count. The DC of this check depends on the spell level

Level 1: DC 13
Level 2: DC 16
Level 3: DC 19
Level 4: DC 22
Level 5: DC 25
Level 6: DC 28
Level 7: DC 31
Level 8: DC 34
Level 9: DC 37

Thoughts?

[dsmiles]

Personally, I'd recommend use of the BESM: Advanced d20 Magic system. Casters make checks to cast spells and maintain control of the spell, and take non-lethal damage for casting spells. That should limit his casting.

[3SecondCultist]

I am in concurrence with dsmiles' opinion of the topic. Another alternative is to force the mage in question to roll a Concentration check in order to cast a spell. The key variable would be the effective level of the spell.

Try this:
Level 1 - DC 11 - 1d4
Level 2 - DC 14 - 1d6
Level 3 - DC 17 - 2d4
Level 4 - DC 20 - 2d6
Level 5 - DC 23 - 3d4
Level 6 - DC 26 - 3d6
Level 7 - DC 29 - 4d4
Level 8 - DC 32 - 4d6
Level 9 - DC 35 - 5d4

This is only an example of a static caster system.

[wayfare]

I am in concurrence with dsmiles' opinion of the topic. Another alternative is to force the mage in question to roll a Concentration check in order to cast a spell. The key variable would be the effective level of the spell.

Try this:
Level 1 - DC 11 - 1d4
Level 2 - DC 14 - 1d6
Level 3 - DC 17 - 2d4
Level 4 - DC 20 - 2d6
Level 5 - DC 23 - 3d4
Level 6 - DC 26 - 3d6
Level 7 - DC 29 - 4d4
Level 8 - DC 32 - 4d6
Level 9 - DC 35 - 5d4

This is only an example of a static caster system.

are the dice on the side the ammount of non lethal damage the caster takes?

[dsmiles]

are the dice on the side the ammount of non lethal damage the caster takes?I know the system (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BzPw7X6JvNR-NzZlZTZiZTktMjU4Zi00N2Q0LTg1ZmYtMzg4MTk0YjQ1NjJh&hl=en_US&authkey=CJmN0LoK) pretty well from using it in BESM: The Slayers d20, but those don't look right.

[3SecondCultist]

I never said anything about using your system. While Advanced Magic looks interesting, it no longer functions within the framework of D&D. My system, while crude and unorthodox perhaps, has worked well for me in the past and is posited as an alternative.

[BluesEclipse]

If there's no present arcane magic(since he wants to be the one that "invents" it), I'd go with the following:

1.) Wizard isn't an option. There are no structured forms for spells, nothing that can be studied and recorded. His only option as an arcane caster would be Sorcerer, to represent that he has enough of a connection to this power naturally to harness and wield it.

2.) A Spellcraft check is required to learn ANY spell. This check can only be made upon level up, once per spell you wish to learn. The DC table Wayfare suggested would work quite well for that. If the check is failed for a specific spell, he can choose a new spell to learn in its place, and attempt the check for it.

3.) The soulmelds related to arcane magic(I don't remember all of them offhand, but Arcane Focus is one) are unavailable. With no arcane spellcasters prior, those souls wouldn't exist to draw from for meldshaping.

4.) Likewise, items and other effects that aid in spellcasting would be unavailable. This would range from things such as the Twilight armor property(lowers ASF) to things that increase caster level(Including Vest/Robe of the Archmagi) to things that affect spell slots(Ring of Wizardry, Pearl of Power/Memento Magica/Ring of Spell Storing). With no arcane magic, even if they have the ability to make such items(using Incarnum), they'd have no reason to create effects that aid spellcasting.

5.) Eliminate soulmelds and items that grant spell resistance, or limit them severely. Again, if there's no or limited spellcasting, such things wouldn't be nearly as common - after all, why do you need to resist spells when they aren't used? Conversely, people would have come up with more ways to defend against incarnum users - maybe replace spell resistance with incarnum resistance, applied against the abilities of soulmelds and any abilities with essentia invested.

6.) Unless it's going to be low-magic, figure out how magic items would be created. Certainly, many effects would be replicatable via soulmelds - perhaps all magic items are created via infusion of incarnum? If so, consider devising specific benefits gained from chakra binds for items you offer to the players, and perhaps other benefits that can be gained by investment of essentia - in particular, consider dropping things like a Ring of Soulbound Protection as opposed to a Ring of Protection +2. Or, perhaps, the +1 Flaming Longsword the players find will become a +1 Flaming Burst Longsword if bound to the Arms chakra, and gets an additional 1 fire damage per point of essentia invested in it. Instead of offering wands/scrolls that contain spells, have them as charged items that duplicate specific soulmeld effects, or even allow a non-meldshaper to temporarily use a specific soulmeld. A Scroll of Adamant Pauldrons, for example, would store the incarnum already formed into the soulmeld, which would retain that form for 1 round/meldshaper level of the creator. A Wand of Dissolving Spittle would replicate the acid spit of the Dissolving Spittle soulmeld, and would be set to use it at a specific level of essentia investment. Charges could be restored to the wand by sacrificing essentia: A 2d6 wand would replicate the effect of 1 invested essentia. Recharging it would cause you to sacrifice 2 essentia/charge - 1 for the initial effect, +1 due to the essentia invested in the effect. The essentia sacrificed to recharge it would be considered invested for 24 hours.

7.) Given the nature of the world, you could probably offer some basic meldshaping to the caster - either as an ACF requiring the loss of the familiar, or in exchange for a couple of spells known or per day. Perhaps say that they can sacrifice one spell per day of the highest level they can currently cast(they gain the spell slot for that level when they would normally gain their first spell slot of the next level), and in exchange will receive an essentia pool equal to the level of spell sacrificed, and the ability to shape 1 soulmeld per 6 HD - and allow them access to the least chakras at level 10, and the lesser chakras at level 20 - but never more than 1 chakra bind at a time. It represents that they have lived their entire life around incarnum, and would know something about it, but aren't by any means focused on it. It also ensures that they can make use of items that benefit from chakra binds or essentia investment. Naturally, this is an option to them, not a requirement.

8.) Consider the ramifications on the world. You have someone that instead of using the power known is developing an entirely new power. This is going to draw the attention of several groups, for good or ill - theoretically, you could, in fact, drive an entire campaign solely off of this character's research and the invention of arcane magic. At the very least, he should expect to have people coming after him - some trying to keep him from developing magic, some demanding he teach them, and some even trying to aid him, offering their knowledge or even protecting him(if he wants to take the Leadership feat, here's a way to justify it).

Overall, I'd think that this is a significant change to the campaign - and honestly, you'd be completely justified in saying, "No, there is no such thing as arcane magic in this setting, so you can't play a wizard, sorcerer, warmage, warlock, dragonfire adept, wu jen, beguiler, binder, shadowcraft mage, dread necromancer, truenamer, or anyone else that uses any form of arcane magic." On the other hand, he's literally handing you the driving hook behind an entire campaign, if you want to take it. You just have to consider that all the things that magic users take for granted, because they've been studied and developed, don't exist.

[Akal Saris]

What about asking the PC if a warlock would work? It's kind of an interesting mix between incarnum-level power and limited spellcaster.

[Tvtyrant]

BluesEclipse has just inspired me to write up a stone age campaign based around inventing new objects to progress.

Curse you!

[erikun]

Spell Slots
How much do you want to weaken the character? Because too much will leave you with the Shadowcaster problem - where the class has some good effects, but runs out after an encounter or two. The way you have things set up, your Wizard is limited to two spells a day unless they give up their best effects and rely on a handful of weaker (and less likely to succeed) spells.

I'll avoid the low level save-or-suck discussion, although we could get into it if you'd like.

On the other hand, what about making the character more like a Sorcerer? That is, they can only memorize a specific number of spells each day - your given method seems to be a good limiter - but can cast them more often, using the Wizard's (or Sorcerer's) number of spells per day. That way, your Wizard can limit themselves to only two known spells in one day (and only using their highest level spell slots) or can choose to memorize a larger variety of spells, with the danger being that their single, high-level spell may not be useful in a given situation.

If you want to limit them further, grant no bonus spell slots for high intelligence. To be honest, the base Wizard gets more than enough slots for a "low magic" setting.

Specialization
Any particular reason for specialization? I mean, if there aren't arcane casters normally, and if the character is designing the spells themself, then forcing specialization doesn't make too much sense. If I can design a high-level, accurate teleportation spell, why not a powerful ward or barrier as well?

In either case, make the player aware of the specialization and don't force the choice on them until 13th level. Their specialization won't matter until then, anyways.

New Spells
How much downtime does your setting have? If you tend to limit downtime, then simple gold/time resources would limit just how many spells the player has. I'd recommend a gold expense per day, much like crafting, with the gold lost if the check is not successful (much like crafting, if you keep the checks).

I also note that the spellcraft check goes up by 3 each level. Given that I assume the character won't have access to a masterwork spellcraft skill item, nor a magical item to buff their spellcraft check, this seems like it would outpace their normal skill ranks. How common are magical items in the campaign setting? Because we don't want to end up with another Truenamer, who becomes dependent on a skill check and skill-boosting items to perform.

[BluesEclipse]

BluesEclipse has just inspired me to write up a stone age campaign based around inventing new objects to progress.

Curse you!

If it's going to be run here, please let me know - I'd love to play it.

I'm guessing, then, you liked the ideas I proposed for this?

EDIT: Also - sig'd.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm guessing, then, you liked the ideas I proposed for this?

Oh yes, I love the idea of going "if you want it, your going to have to invent it :smallamused:" Especially with casters, since they get 10 times the support of anyone else.


If it's going to be run here, please let me know - I'd love to play it.

Let me see if I can make a mechanic worthy of a campaign and I will get back to you. Thinking about making an "inspiration" or "invention" skill, with DCs for invention.

[BluesEclipse]

Oh yes, I love the idea of going "if you want it, your going to have to invent it :smallamused:" Especially with casters, since they get 10 times the support of anyone else.

Let me see if I can make a mechanic worthy of a campaign and I will get back to you. Thinking about making an "inspiration" or "invention" skill, with DCs for invention.

Why a new skill? Just use the Craft skill for it, and set up specific categories. Craft(Alchemy) would cover any type of alchemical items, of course, Craft(Weapons), Craft(Armor), Craft(Tools), and the like. Spellcraft would be used for magic development. Basically, they'd have to expend resources developing the idea in order to first "invent" something, after which it can be created normally, and some things won't be available until other things are created(you'll need to develop stone/wood weapons before metal ones, full plate will require you to develop lighter armor first, etc).

[Glimbur]

Personally, I'd recommend use of the BESM: Advanced d20 Magic system. Casters make checks to cast spells and maintain control of the spell, and take non-lethal damage for casting spells. That should limit his casting.

My experience with that system is that it results in fewer but more powerful spells. I was in an e6 game and our wizard was casting multiple meteor swarms in one fight. He drew from a number of sources to get his casting check much higher than expected, but as far as I could tell what he was doing was legal. So, there's that.

[dsmiles]

My experience with that system is that it results in fewer but more powerful spells. I was in an e6 game and our wizard was casting multiple meteor swarms in one fight. He drew from a number of sources to get his casting check much higher than expected, but as far as I could tell what he was doing was legal. So, there's that.
Yeeeeaaaahhhh...about that...

I LOVE IT! That system is so much fun, and it puts a pretty harsh limitation on casters (if you're using the Slayers d20 spell DCs and damage). I'm not all the way into the actual Advanced d20 magic book yet, but I'm working on it.

[Vulaas]

I personally like the idea of either making it so higher level spells have increased casting times [assuming the base of a single standard action to cast; can be adjusted up or down based on reality] (IE: 0 level might be a swift action, 1st level standard, 2nd full round, and so on), and allowing them to spend feats to decrease the requirement OR making it so that you can cast the higher level spells much less frequently in some manner (like the spell slots have to take more than the standard 8 hours to recharge). That way they'd have to decide between metamagic and making it so they can cast their spells in a timely manner.

In short: Keeps them either creatively using lower level spells, or dropping a single high level bomb for most fights, unless they use most of their feats making it so they can drop multiple, or they have to conserve their higher level slots in case they'll need them later before they'd recharge.