The Orcish and Dwarven Bard

[Dr.Epic]

Let's say I want to make a dwarf or half orc bard. I like the concept in terms of a fun character to roleplay, but that -2 is too nasty especially for a hardcore spell caster. Are there any subrace of either that don't have this penalty? And if no, is there a good enough build to over right the penalty and still make an effective PC?

[BillyBobJoe]

Gold Dwarves have +2 Constitution and -2 Dexterity.

[Dr.Epic]

Gold Dwarves have +2 Constitution and -2 Dexterity.

Source book please?

[BillyBobJoe]

Ummm... I dunno. Desert Dwarves (From the SRD)have the same stats.

[Tyger]

Source book please?

Dungeon Masters Guide, page 171, heading "Example Subrace: Gold Dwarves."

[BillyBobJoe]

Ooh, thanks. I just knew that because of Neverwinter Nights.:smalltongue:

[Dr.Epic]

Dungeon Masters Guide, page 171, heading "Example Subrace: Gold Dwarves."

Cool, found it. Thanks.

[Yuki Akuma]

16 Charisma is quite good for a Bard. :smalltongue: You don't need an 18 to be effective.

[Talya]

16 Charisma is quite good for a Bard. :smalltongue: You don't need an 18 to be effective.

This is true. But I'd rather spend 10 point buy points than sixteen of my point buy points for that score.

[Rejakor]

Bards are terrifyingly powerful.

With a decent set of melee to buff, or even just themselves, they make extremely powerful gishes.

They also make very strong fearmongers, and thanks to sublime chord, primary spellcasters.

They're not tier 1, but they can be very solid tier 2, built right. -2 starting cha isn't that much of a handicap compared to that kind of power.

[Talya]

Another possibility: apply the magic-blooded LA +0 template to your character. +2 charisma, -2 wisdom. A few cantrips as spell like abilities. Low light vision.

[Telonius]

There's also the good old-fashioned "Age" standby. Old will get you +2 to all mental stats, at the cost of -3 to all physical.

[FMArthur]

Just don't use spells that have saves and it mostly works out fine.

Most Bardic Music doesn't even require a positive charisma modifier; just skill ranks are needed, although Dragonfire Inspiration requires 11 Cha and Words of Creation requires 15, and both are easily doable for an orc without spending much on a high charisma if you get a +Cha magic item. That's enough to be able to cast most Bard spells, too.

Middling-charisma Bard is perfectly playable, and if you restrict your options to certain aspects of Bard casting, you won't actually suffer any penalties for it at all. Inspire Courage optimization continues exactly as normal, in fact. A "Battle Bard" going primarily Warblade or Crusader is basically unchanged, and the most efficient way to spend your points even with Snowflake Wardance is a balance of Strength and Charisma, favoring Strength.

[erikun]

Forgotten Realms has the Gold Dwarf which (as others have mentioned) is +2 Con, -2 Dex. The same book has the Thunder Twin feat, for 1st level dwarves only, that gives them a +2 to any Charisma-based checks. The standard Hill Dwarf Thunder Twin Bard works well enough as long as you don't worry about spell slots, although the Gold Dwarf Thunder Twin Bard is obviously better.

[Talya]

Middling-charisma Bard is perfectly playable, and if you restrict your options to certain aspects of Bard casting, you won't actually suffer any penalties for it at all. Inspire Courage optimization continues exactly as normal, in fact. A "Battle Bard" going primarily Warblade or Crusader is basically unchanged, and the most efficient way to spend your points even with Snowflake Wardance is a balance of Strength and Charisma, favoring Strength.

If you need a charisma higher than 12, you're paying a steep point-buy tax on any race with a charisma penalty. You might only want 15-16 charisma, but you just paid 13-16 points out of a 25-40 point buy to get it on a standard half-orc or dwarf, while it would only cost 8-10 points on any character without a penalty. That's fairly significant. Even if you do not plan to max out your charisma, you're better off avoiding the penalty. If I'm playing with a point buy, and really want a 15 or higher in any given ability score, i'll try pretty hard to ensure i actually have a bonus to that score.

[FMArthur]

If you need a charisma higher than 12, you're paying a steep point-buy tax on any race with a charisma penalty. You might only want 15-16 charisma, but you just paid 13-16 points out of a 25-40 point buy to get it on a standard half-orc or dwarf, while it would only cost 8-10 points on any character without a penalty. That's fairly significant. Even if you do not plan to max out your charisma, you're better off avoiding the penalty. If I'm playing with a point buy, and really want a 15 or higher in any given ability score, i'll try pretty hard to ensure i actually have a bonus to that score.

11 and a +4 item is all you need if you want WoC. You don't need it very high for all uses of the class.

[Greenish]

Another possibility: apply the magic-blooded LA +0 template to your character. +2 charisma, -2 wisdom. A few cantrips as spell like abilities. Low light vision.Loses all original vision modes though, so no darkvision.

Desert half-orcs don't have Cha penalty.

[Zonugal]

Desert Half-Orc from UA is +2 Con & -2 Int if I remember correctly. But for generic orc you'll have some troubles.

Also, if you're trying to make some memorable bards to each of these races look at bard variants. Divine bard and savage bard (both from UA) come to mind for dwarves and orcs.

[Kantolin]

I've played several half-orc bards. The casting variety is obviously a more poor idea, but it works out a lot more than you'd think - for example, haste doesn't care what your save DCs are, nor does invisibility or a lot of useful spells, and it doesn't really hurt your music much.

A physical bard then works very well - I especially like warchanter for this, as warchanters only mildly care about their charisma.

[Zaq]

Yeah, honestly, just stick to buffing and saveless spells and you'll only really be maybe a bonus spell or two shy of a real CHA-monkey. Your social skills will be just fine (having max ranks is more important than having a high stat, really), most of your music isn't CHA-based, and you'll still have the majority of your tricks. You won't be able to (or perhaps more accurately, you won't want to) engage in the fun CHA-stacking that some Bard builds can crank out, but who cares? Bards have a hellaton of useful and viable builds out there. Who cares if you only have half a hellaton? As long as you have the minimum CHA necessary to cast your spells, you'll be just fine. I could totally see playing a Bard with a starting CHA of 12 and just using level-based stat bumps and the occasional magic item to get yourself up to what you need to keep your spells flowing.

Someday I fully intend to play a full-blooded orc Bard (what, you think orcs don't tell stories?). I do have a CHA-loving Bard build sketched out that I'll probably play before I play that one, but who knows? The point is that Bards are awesome, and a little CHA penalty doesn't reduce their awesomeness one bit.

[Talya]

Obviously if one planned to use Snowflake Wardance, you want higher charisma.

(I'm playing a bardadin with Divine Might and Snowflake Wardance...together you really want Charisma as high as possible.)

[Kantolin]

Well yes, higher charisma is obviously and fairly objectively better than low-charisma on a bard, and a bard with a -2 penalty to charisma is indeed not the most mechanically sound option.

It's just that it's really not a big deal in the grand scheme of your character. Even if you had your heart set on spamming dominate person or some other effect which focuses on charisma, you take a... -1 penalty to your save DCs thereon (Compared to a human)? Meh? You're not crippled because your bardadin's saves are 12 instead of 13 or something.

It is, however, fairly clearly subpar (unless there's some dwarf or half-orc substitution level or prestige class that syncs wel with it), but you can do it, and you won't necessarily feel tremendously crippled due to it.

I play half-orcs who are utilizing their mental stats all the time. You won't be optimal, but you'll be okay. It's also quite fun to go against type ^_^

[Zaq]

Obviously if one planned to use Snowflake Wardance, you want higher charisma.

(I'm playing a bardadin with Divine Might and Snowflake Wardance...together you really want Charisma as high as possible.)


You won't be able to (or perhaps more accurately, you won't want to) engage in the fun CHA-stacking that some Bard builds can crank out, but who cares? Bards have a hellaton of useful and viable builds out there. Who cares if you only have half a hellaton?

CHA-stacking is fun and is certainly a powerful tactic, but it's far from a Bard's only trick.

[Leon]

Let's say I want to make a dwarf or half orc bard. I like the concept in terms of a fun character to roleplay, but that -2 is too nasty especially for a hardcore spell caster. Are there any subrace of either that don't have this penalty? And if no, is there a good enough build to over right the penalty and still make an effective PC?

You apparently don't what to play a flavorful and fun character enough if a measly -2 stops you from doing so. So suck it up and realize that there is much more to a good character than its spell casting stat.

If you want to Negate the -2 (and get a few other nice things there is always Draconic template - but you'll probably cry a river over it having a +1 LA)

[Coidzor]

If you wanna go Orc, go with Gray Orc(I believe) with LA buyoff and with Battlehowler of Gruumsh (Dragon 311, IIRC).

If you wanna go Dwarf, the Memory Smith(Dragon 311 again) is interesting as well as this Dwarven Chanter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061128a).

[Zaq]

Huh. That Dwarven Chanter's pretty weird, I gotta say. I love how Trance can kill you, but it doesn't, as written, provide any specific benefit. Very, um, old-school, I guess.

[Dr.Epic]

You apparently don't what to play a flavorful and fun character enough if a measly -2 stops you from doing so. So suck it up and realize that there is much more to a good character than its spell casting stat.

Considering how important cha is for a bard (not just in terms of spellcasting) I'd rather not take the chance of having it low.

[Zaq]

Considering how important cha is for a bard (not just in terms of spellcasting) I'd rather not take the chance of having it low.

CHA's only critical for certain kinds of Bards. If you have your heart set on being a Snowflake-Wardancin', Arrow-Charmin', Netherese Battle-Cursin', Hexblade-dippin' kind of guy who adds CHA to everything, then yes, playing a half-orc may not be for you. If, on the other hand, you are OK with not having the absolute maximum number of spells per day and want to focus on, well, most of the OTHER cool stuff that Bards can do . . . like I said, you can probably get by with a starting post-racial 12 in CHA and still have a totally functional character. Seriously.

[Talya]

CHA's only critical for certain kinds of Bards. If you have your heart set on being a Snowflake-Wardancin', Arrow-Charmin', Netherese Battle-Cursin', Hexblade-dippin' kind of guy who adds CHA to everything, then yes, playing a half-orc may not be for you.

Well, see, that's the thing. We've presented several ways here that an orc or half orc can end up without a charisma penalty - or even with a charisma bonus. He really can have his cake and eat it, too.

[Ganurath]

Magic-Blooded Desert Half-Orc provides +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, and +2 Cha, for example. Desert Orc already has low-light vision instead of darkvision, too, so you aren't losing anything there. All for +0 LA. His pulse is a drumbeat, and the power in his blood calls him to music... Great potential for the Savage Bard varient from the SRD/UA.

[SuperFerret]

Considering how important cha is for a bard (not just in terms of spellcasting) I'd rather not take the chance of having it low.

Forgive me for being new here, but when did 16 become low?

[Ganurath]

Forgive me for being new here, but when did 16 become low?When you have to pay 16 BP for it.

[SuperFerret]

When you have to pay 16 BP for it.

Then put the amount needed for a 16 (I don't use point buys, so I'm not familiar with how much it costs) into Constitution and it balances out, as you still have an 18 and a 16. A +4 to your hp is never a bad thing. :smallwink:

[Dr.Epic]

Forgive me for being new here, but when did 16 become low?

That's assuming you know for a fact you will have at least one twenty by chance of rolling. As for a point by, do you want to invest all those points in an 18 when it'll only be a 16?

[Talya]

Look, there's nothing wrong with someone who doesn't want to optimize at all. Just note that by taking a charisma penalty on a bard when you can get the exact same flavor without a charisma penalty (even getting a charisma bonus) is not just unoptimized, it's intentionally gimped. There's still nothing wrong with that per se, it doesn't mean you can't be effective. You can just be much, much more effective with relative ease, so unless you are attempting to increase the challenge level, why do it? Doc Horrible Epic came here seeking optimization help, we're providing it.

[SuperFerret]

That's assuming you know for a fact you will have at least one twenty by chance of rolling.

:smallconfused:


As for a point by, do you want to invest all those points in an 18 when it'll only be a 16?

Like I said in my post above, you could easily balance it out.

[Zonugal]

I still don't think the charisma penalty is all that huge with point-buy system. If we take a water orc for example (and why not, they're better in every way than you average orc) we can get something akin to this:

28-point buy: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16
32-point buy: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16

I mean, these aren't terrible attribute arrays and actually lead to a pretty flavorful character as that rough musician who can beat your face in should you touch his mandolin.

[Talya]

I still don't think the charisma penalty is all that huge with point-buy system. If we take a water orc for example (and why not, they're better in every way than you average orc) we can get something akin to this:

28-point buy: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16
32-point buy: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16

I mean, these aren't terrible attribute arrays and actually lead to a pretty flavorful character as that rough musician who can beat your face in should you touch his mandolin.

And that LA+0 magic-blooded desert half-orc?

28 point buy: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16
32 point buy: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16.

Same strength, 2 more dex, 2 more con at both buy levels. 2 more int at pb 28, too.


So once again, yes you can make a good water orc bard. You can make a better magic-blooded half-orc bard.

Heck, apply magic-blooded to water orc if you really want a water orc, and you end up with +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -4 wis. Suddenly your stat array for both 28 and 32 only used up 26 and 30, respectively. You get 2 extra buy points, a bunch of little spell like abilities, essentially for the cost of trading darkvision for low-light vision.

[Zonugal]

And that LA+0 magic-blooded desert half-orc?

28 point buy: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16
32 point buy: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16.

Same strength, 2 more dex, 2 more con at both buy levels. 2 more int at pb 28, too.

So once again, yes you can make a good water orc bard. You can make a better magic-blooded half-orc bard.

Heck, apply magic-blooded to water orc if you really want a water orc, and you end up with +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -4 wis. Suddenly your stat array for both 28 and 32 only used up 26 and 30, respectively. You get 2 extra buy points, a bunch of little spell like abilities, essentially for the cost of trading darkvision for low-light vision.

Umm... Okay. I was just making a point regarding orcs (not your filthy half-breeds. Ugh.. Half-bloods, how disgusting...)

But yeah, a magic-blooded half-orc is a legitimate race to build from for a bard build. I can just imagine how awesome a strong bard would be in conjunction with the savage bard acf and warchanter levels. It would be very metal.

[Kantolin]

Doc Horrible Epic came here seeking optimization help, we're providing it.

Ah, I suppose this is partially true. Let me focus on answering the questions then:


Let's say I want to make a dwarf or half orc bard. I like the concept in terms of a fun character to roleplay, but that -2 is too nasty especially for a hardcore spell caster.

It is a penalty, but not a terribly relevant one unless you're absolutely maximumly optimized, and even then it's probably not as focal (If your mailman or whatever build is doing 7000 damage over 7500, you probably don't mind).


Are there any subrace of either that don't have this penalty?

Yes. The magic-blooded template helps, as does being a desert half-orc.


is there a good enough build to over right the penalty and still make an effective PC?

Yes. Whatever build you were using will likely not die nor even be terribly inconveniencedby having -2 charisma. If you focus on buffs, summons, no-save effects, or your singing, it'll be even less inconvenienced.

So if, say, there were two identical bards in the party, one with a +0 mod to cha while the other has a -2... if either of you casts haste, it's the same effect. Summons something, walls, inspires courage, whatever - it's the same, so if those are your goal then you're fine.

When you both use dominate person, however, you'll have a -1 penalty thereon. If you can handle that, then awesome - it's not a big deal. :P

[Talya]

It is a penalty, but not a terribly relevant one unless you're absolutely maximumly optimized, and even then it's probably not as focal (If your mailman or whatever build is doing 7000 damage over 7500, you probably don't mind).

Whatever build you were using will likely not die nor even be terribly inconveniencedby having -2 charisma. If you focus on buffs, summons, no-save effects, or your singing, it'll be even less inconvenienced.

Apart from the significantly greater number of spells per day focusnig on charisma gets you, there's the problem of "What other ability scores are important to you?" Choose a charisma target. What charisma do you want? Are you only shooting for 12? Fine, that still costs you 2 more point buy points with a penalty than it does without it (and 4 more with a penalty over a bonus.) 14? 4 more point buy points with a penalty with than without. (and 6 more with a penalty than with a bonus.) 16? 6 more point buy points with a penalty than without. (and 10 more than with a bonus. Charisma isn't the only thing he loses. If he's shooting for 16, a regular half orc doesn't lose 2 points of charisma. What they lose is 10 point buy points that could have been put into strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, whatever.



So if, say, there were two identical bards in the party, one with a +0 mod to cha while the other has a -2... if either of you casts haste, it's the same effect. Summons something, walls, inspires courage, whatever - it's the same, so if those are your goal then you're fine.

When you both use dominate person, however, you'll have a -1 penalty thereon. If you can handle that, then awesome - it's not a big deal. :P

This is the wrong way to look at it. To cast dominate person, the bards must both have a charisma of 14. It cost the half orc 10 point buy points to get that 14. It cost the magic-blooded desert half orc 4 points to get that 14. So the magic blooded half orc does not necessarily just have more charisma (although, he probably does.) He has 6 more buy points placed wherever he wants. That means he probably has 4 more charisma. Or 2 more charisma and 16 strength instead of 14...etc.

[Kantolin]

This is the wrong way to look at it.

I'm not completely sure why.

If I'm playing a half-orc bard and I want 16 charisma, it's the same as if I'm playing a half-elf bard and want 18 charisma. Essentially, I build him the same way I'd build anyone else and move on with my life. I suppose this may change things if you were intending on aiming for a 12, in which a 10 absolutely will not cut it, but a 16 that becomes a 14 will for most purposes.

I mean... if I'm playing a charisma-focused bard, and thus want to plug an 18 start into charisma and put all my level bumps into charisma and dive tackle a cloak of charisma, you're fine - a 16 charisma will do anything you need it to, you can just as bump it up every 5 levels, and basically it's a -1.

But... what are you arguing against? It's objectively worse if you care particularly about charisma, this is clear. You could also go use a template from somewhere as well as a desert-based variant from somewhere to play a 'half-orc' without that penalty, or possibly a human you're reflavoring as a half-orc. I stated this.

It's just that I've just done it a bunch, and it's absolutely manageable even if you don't care about the strength. If a -1 penalty is crippling to the point where you can't play it, then you're probably in such a high-op game that your build is such that that -1 penalty doesn't mean a lot.

(Semirelatedly, most people on these boards prefer battlefield control and buffing to spells that require saves, which means that penalty is less likely to come up).

So meh. It is indeed worse! Nobody is arguing that it's not worse - it is. It's just not nearly as big of a deal as most.

(Now, as a half-orc in specific you get absolutely nothing to make half-orcs even slightly worthwhile so that's clearly a poor idea, but that's a different issue :P )

[Talya]

If you have the magic-blooded template available, why would you not use it?

As an orc/half-orc, it eliminates your charisma penalty (if any) ...and gives you a wisdom (the lone bardic dump stat!) penalty instead. As a desert half-orc you actually end up with a charisma bonus. It's a win-win situation all around.

[SuperFerret]

What if you don't want to play a half-orc from the desert or who has magic in the blood?

[Greenish]

What if you don't want to play a half-orc from the desert or who has magic in the blood?Well, if you don't want to play a half-orc with magic in their blood, you probably wouldn't be going for bard. :smalltongue:

As for the area of origin, eh, don't do it then. No one is trying to tell you what you have to play, just pointing out the options (that the OP asked for). If you want to ignore that and rather play, say, a commoner with crossclass ranks in perform, go ahead.

[SuperFerret]

Well, if you don't want to play a half-orc with magic in their blood, you probably wouldn't be going for bard. :smalltongue:

As for the area of origin, eh, don't do it then. No one is trying to tell you what you have to play, just pointing out the options (that the OP asked for). If you want to ignore that and rather play, say, a commoner with crossclass ranks in perform, go ahead.

That's not what I mean, and bardic skill with magic isn't necessarily bloodborne, like that of a sorceror.

And I understand what the OP asked for and I'm not trying to speak for him/her, I just don't get why when asked "I want to play (this concept), please help", people respond with subtle ways of saying "don't play (this concept), play (this slightly to mostly different concept) instead".

But I'll just keep attributing this to the culture shock I feel whenever I decide to sign up to a D&D forum, and be ever thankful for my group of players.

[Greenish]

And I understand what the OP asked for and I'm not trying to speak for him/her, I just don't get why when asked "I want to play (this concept), please help", people respond with subtle ways of saying "don't play (this concept), play (this slightly to mostly different concept) instead".Oh, I missed where someone asked help for a half-orc bard that's not from desert and doesn't have magic in her blood, except for bard's magic.

Besides, fluff is flexible, and the same concept can be realized with many different ways.

[SuperFerret]

Oh, I missed where someone asked help for a half-orc bard that's not from desert and doesn't have magic in her blood, except for bard's magic.

Besides, fluff is flexible, and the same concept can be realized with many different ways.

Nobody asked for that specifically, but I'm just pointing out how odd it is (to me at least).

And yeah, the "fluff" is flexible, but if those are the changes you want to make, why not house rule that that's how they are?

[Coidzor]

Nobody asked for that specifically, but I'm just pointing out how odd it is (to me at least).

Why is it odd? Saying your objective is X and getting alternatives that help better meet those objectives which don't violate the parameters you've been given is what getting outside input is all about. One gets other perspectives and approaches to augment one's own natural inclinations.


And yeah, the "fluff" is flexible, but if those are the changes you want to make, why not house rule that that's how they are?

Because they're not changes that are universally desirable so much as alternatives that are better at one niche or another or simply tools as in the case of the template.

[Greenish]

Nobody asked for that specifically, but I'm just pointing out how odd it is (to me at least).What is odd? Oh, are you saying that something that hasn't happened in this thread is odd? Yeah, it might be, but why don't you make a thread for it, since it has no bearing with the current one?


And yeah, the "fluff" is flexible, but if those are the changes you want to make, why not house rule that that's how they are?No particular reason, it's down to preference. Some prefer to ask for houserules, others for refluff.

But what's being refluffed/houseruled to what? This is confusing. What are you talking about?

[Talya]

Wrong thread.

[SuperFerret]

Why is it odd? Saying your objective is X and getting alternatives that help better meet those objectives which don't violate the parameters you've been given is what getting outside input is all about. One gets other perspectives and approaches to augment one's own natural inclinations.

Which alternatives "don't violate the parameters" and which do is a matter of viewpoint.


Because they're not changes that are universally desirable so much as alternatives that are better at one niche or another or simply tools as in the case of the template.

This is a matter of my personal opinion but this way of thinking bothers the hell out of me.

I think I'm just going to not reply here anymore. I've asked two apparently stupid questions when I should've just kept browsing, and now I feel backed into a corner of my own making.

[Greenish]

For relatively common creature types, feel free to be specific, you've probably encountered them.Which ones are common?

Dinosaurs? Why, the Talenta Plains are teeming with them!

Which alternatives "don't violate the parameters" and which do is a matter of viewpoint.Maybe. Is that a problem? Should there only be one viewpoint?


This is a matter of my personal opinion but this way of thinking bothers the hell out of me.What kind of thinking? That all wizards/warforged/hellreavers aren't carbon copies of each others?



I think I'm just going to not reply here anymore. I've asked two apparently stupid questions when I should've just kept browsing, and now I feel backed into a corner of my own making.If you feel you can't make a good argument to support your views, maybe, just maybe you should rethink them? :smalltongue:

[SuperFerret]

Maybe. Is that a problem? Should there only be one viewpoint?

Never said that there shouldn't or that those outside of mine are necessarily wrong.


What kind of thinking? That all wizards/warforged/hellreavers aren't carbon copies of each others?

Wizards, no. They're an occupation, and one with a wide breadth of potential. Warforged, no. They're built (as far I know) and the individual builder could make general changes that differentiate them. Hellreavers, not exactly, but from what I understand, it's a Prestige Class, so individual Hellreavers should be very similar to one another.

But something like a half-orc, where they're a bred (sub)species shouldn't have much deviation from others of its kind in its general group.


If you feel you can't make a good argument to support your views, maybe, just maybe you should rethink them? :smalltongue:

It's less my "views" and more my gut feelings towards it.

[Zaq]

Never said that there shouldn't or that those outside of mine are necessarily wrong.



Wizards, no. They're an occupation, and one with a wide breadth of potential. Warforged, no. They're built (as far I know) and the individual builder could make general changes that differentiate them. Hellreavers, not exactly, but from what I understand, it's a Prestige Class, so individual Hellreavers should be very similar to one another.

But something like a half-orc, where they're a bred (sub)species shouldn't have much deviation from others of its kind in its general group.



It's less my "views" and more my gut feelings towards it.

Wait.

Wait.

So a constructed race, the one that's the closest to anything D&D has resembling being mass-produced . . . it's easier for you to accept that they would have variance and differentiation than it is for you to accept that a biological race with a wide and constantly changing gene pool (just like humans have, and indeed every other living species) has variance and differentiation?

How does that possibly work?

[Greenish]

Never said that there shouldn't or that those outside of mine are necessarily wrong.So why did you bother to point out the obvious, if not as a counter-argument?


Warforged, no. They're built (as far I know) and the individual builder could make general changes that differentiate them.They're created at creation forges (and nobody really understands how those work). Why should they be less similar to each others than two given representatives of a certain (hybrid) race? Wouldn't the specific half-orc be a product of her environment and the two mixed lineages, and such potentially very different from some other half-orc?


Hellreavers, not exactly, but from what I understand, it's a Prestige Class, so individual Hellreavers should be very similar to one another.Why?


But something like a half-orc, where they're a bred (sub)species shouldn't have much deviation from others of its kind in its general group.What deviation, where? Oh, right, in the houserules you're suggesting, right? So why are you suggesting those houserules?

I might just be tired, but I'm not really following.

[Edit]:
It's less my "views" and more my gut feelings towards it.That shouldn't make it immune to introspection. The opposite, actually.

[Leon]

What if you don't want to play a half-orc from the desert or who has magic in the blood?

You choose another option that suits until you get what you want your character to be.

Draconic Half-Orc is quite good if you want some combat potency - +4 STR, +2 CON, +0 CHA, Claws, natural armour, some other bonuses



Hellreavers, not exactly, but from what I understand, it's a Prestige Class, so individual Hellreavers should be very similar to one another.


No idea what a hellreaver is but..
They will only be similar in that they will share PrC class features - after that what the base class is and continues as and what feats it has maybe totally varied from example to example

[SuperFerret]

Wait.

Wait.

So a constructed race, the one that's the closest to anything D&D has resembling being mass-produced . . . it's easier for you to accept that they would have variance and differentiation than it is for you to accept that a biological race with a wide and constantly changing gene pool (just like humans have, and indeed every other living species) has variance and differentiation?

How does that possibly work?

A biological race varies within their normal parameters, so they should still have the same stats in general. Also, I'm not saying that there can't be special desert half-orcs, but they'd need to come from a tribe of desert orcs (which may or may not fit in the game world) and not just have one individual spawn from a (relatively) normal background with these different abilities.


So why did you bother to point out the obvious, if not as a counter-argument?

To display that I have a differing opinion, I guess. I wasn't really setting out with the intention of making a "counter-argument". I'm just stating my opinions and trying to explain them so I'm not misunderstood. This isn't a debate, is it?


They're created at creation forges (and nobody really understands how those work). Why should they be less similar to each others than two given representatives of a certain (hybrid) race? Wouldn't the specific half-orc be a product of her environment and the two mixed lineages, and such potentially very different from some other half-orc?

I'm not gonna get into the whole "life self-regulates and tech doesn't" crap because I'm not really feeling up to articulating it where I don't sound like I'm talking out of my backside, but a specific half-orc should be similar to other half-orcs that share her background. In the scope of the entire race, yes, there will be differences.


Why?

Aren't prestige classes something people work towards and to do so they go about gaining abilities that are prerequisites for all who want to be that prestige class? Why wouldn't they be at least somewhat similar?


What deviation, where? Oh, right, in the houserules you're suggesting, right? So why are you suggesting those houserules?

I might just be tired, but I'm not really following.

There's definitely some sort of disconnect here. I'm not sure what you're getting at here, and it's apparent you don't know exactly what I mean either.


[Edit]: That shouldn't make it immune to introspection. The opposite, actually.

It's not. I know why I have these gut feelings and in the current state of the game, those reasons and feelings are "wrong", so I don't see how stating them will remotely help me be understood.


You choose another option that suits until you get what you want your character to be.

Draconic Half-Orc is quite good if you want some combat potency - +4 STR, +2 CON, +0 CHA, Claws, natural armour, some other bonuses

What if you just want to be a Half-Orc?


No idea what a hellreaver is but..
They will only be similar in that they will share PrC class features - after that what the base class is and continues as and what feats it has maybe totally varied from example to example

PrC's aren't just mechanics though. They represent characters with similar goals and methods. The mechanics are just the bones beneath that flesh.

Anyway, I don't want to be the source of a thread derailment any more. I merely asked a few questions that stuck out at me. I apologize to the OP and everyone else for this off-topic conversation.

[Greenish]

A biological race varies within their normal parameters, so they should still have the same stats in general. Also, I'm not saying that there can't be special desert half-orcs, but they'd need to come from a tribe of desert orcs (which may or may not fit in the game world) and not just have one individual spawn from a (relatively) normal background with these different abilities.Ever heard of Azurin?


To display that I have a differing opinion, I guess. I wasn't really setting out with the intention of making a "counter-argument". I'm just stating my opinions and trying to explain them so I'm not misunderstood.But you didn't really explain anything. I'm not even sure what it is that you have a differing opinion on.


I'm not gonna get into the whole "life self-regulates and tech doesn't" crap because I'm not really feeling up to articulating it where I don't sound like I'm talking out of my backside, but a specific half-orc should be similar to other half-orcs that share her background. In the scope of the entire race, yes, there will be differences.Who shares what background? You should state your assumptions before building on them, it'd make you easier to follow.

Besides, all warforged share a pretty specific background (created in the creation forges by House Cannith to fight in the Last War, then set free by the Thronehold Accord), while half-orcs aren't even a true-breeding race in most settings.


Aren't prestige classes something people work towards and to do so they go about gaining abilities that are prerequisites for all who want to be that prestige class? Why wouldn't they be at least somewhat similar?They may have somewhat similar/overlapping goals, or use similar methods, but a shared prestige class shouldn't mean that two characters can't be radically different.


There's definitely some sort of disconnect here. I'm not sure what you're getting at here, and it's apparent you don't know exactly what I mean either.So it seems, but it's comforting to know that it goes both ways. :smallwink:


It's not. I know why I have these gut feelings and in the current state of the game, those reasons and feelings are "wrong", so I don't see how stating them will remotely help me be understood.Wait, what's wrong? What are your gut feelings objecting to, in the first place?

[Leon]

What if you just want to be a Half-Orc?



Then you play a Half Orc - and live with the fact that the race has a couple of minor penalties and make the best of it that you can



PrC's aren't just mechanics though. They represent characters with similar goals and methods. The mechanics are just the bones beneath that flesh.


Hence why two hellreavers may have nothing in common beyond what the PrC gives them - those other mechanics provide the basis for what their methods and goals may be.

And more importantly how the players have molded them with actions and story

[SuperFerret]

Ever heard of Azurin?

No.


But you didn't really explain anything. I'm not even sure what it is that you have a differing opinion on.

My opinion differs on which parameters (here, for example) would interfere with the concept laid out (as I see it here, obviously if the OP has no issue with it, then that's what counts).


Who shares what background? You should state your assumptions before building on them, it'd make you easier to follow.

Besides, all warforged share a pretty specific background (created in the creation forges by House Cannith to fight in the Last War, then set free by the Thronehold Accord), while half-orcs aren't even a true-breeding race in most settings.

I was taking generic warforged into consideration, not specifically the ones tied to Eberron.

As for the background, I'm talking that (to me) if one wanted to be a desert half-orc, one would need to be born of desert orcs or desert humans, and couldn't spawn from woodland humans or tundra orcs. Like begets like.


They may have somewhat similar/overlapping goals, or use similar methods, but a shared prestige class shouldn't mean that two characters can't be radically different.

Depends on what you're seeing as radically different. Two paladins can't be radically different from each other by the way their class is designed. They can be different, but not radically so.


So it seems, but it's comforting to know that it goes both ways. :smallwink:

Perhaps. I'm still trying to figure out if we're disagreeing or not.


Wait, what's wrong? What are your gut feelings objecting to, in the first place?

That's hard to say. On the very surface and the most relevant, it's that I personally wouldn't allow a PC with a template, or a variant of a race that wasn't explicitly incorporated into the setting.


Then you play a Half Orc - and live with the fact that the race has a couple of minor penalties and make the best of it that you can



Hence why two hellreavers may have nothing in common beyond what the PrC gives them - those other mechanics provide the basis for what their methods and goals may be.

And more importantly how the players have molded them with actions and story

I'm not disagreeing there, but the hellreavers are still going to be similar. I'm not my brother, nor am I my co-workers or friends, but we're similar in varying ways.

[Greenish]

No.Well, they do just that. (They "just have one individual spawn from a (relatively) normal background with these different abilities.") For example.

Of course, no one is claiming that being magic-blooded shouldn't be reflected in one's backstory.


My opinion differs on which parameters (here, for example) would interfere with the concept laid outHere, there's no concept beyond "half-orc/dwarf bard", with variant races excplicitly being asked for. If you think that desert half-orc falls outside those parameters, you're demonstrably wrong.


I was taking generic warforged into considerationThose are made in Creation Forges to fight in a war, accidentally gained consciousness, too, as per MMIII. They were made in same places, by same processes, for the same purposes. Mass-produced, as someone observed.


As for the background, I'm talking that (to me) if one wanted to be a desert half-orc, one would need to be born of desert orcs or desert humans, and couldn't spawn from woodland humans or tundra orcs.Yes? If you want to be a desert half-orc, yeah, you've bloodlines to the desert.

If you wanted to use the stats to represent tundra half-orcs, on the other hand…


Depends on what you're seeing as radically different. Two paladins can't be radically different from each other by the way their class is designed. They can be different, but not radically so.Well, paladin is perhaps the most restrictive of base classes, but that doesn't mean all paladins have to be "very similar".


Perhaps. I'm still trying to figure out if we're disagreeing or not.Oh, you've gotten far, I'm still trying to figure out what you're talking about.


That's hard to say. On the very surface and the most relevant, it's that I personally wouldn't allow a PC with a template, or a variant of a race that wasn't explicitly incorporated into the setting.Sure, that's DM's prerogative, to say what fits and what doesn't. If you want to exert it by blanket banning anything not explicitly mentioned, go ahead. Not the tact I'd use, but then again I'm a big fan of Eberron, which explicitly has space for anything printed. :smalltongue:

[SuperFerret]

I'm just going to drop it then. Apparently, I misread.


Sure, that's DM's prerogative, to say what fits and what doesn't. If you want to exert it by blanket banning anything not explicitly mentioned, go ahead. Not the tact I'd use, but then again I'm a big fan of Eberron, which explicitly has space for anything printed. :smalltongue:

I'm still offput by the idea of dwarven wizards, so forgive me. (And I don't ban things that aren't explicitly mentioned, but if they don't fit, they're not allowed.)

[Greenish]

I'm still offput by the idea of dwarven wizards, so forgive me.I'm not sure how that's relevant, but Runesmiths are pretty awesome, IMO. :smallcool:


(And I don't ban things that aren't explicitly mentioned, but if they don't fit, they're not allowed.)Naturally, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Still, if someone comes asking for half-orc subraces without cha penalty, mentioning desert half-orcs shouldn't offend anyone's sensibilities.

[SuperFerret]

I'm not sure how that's relevant, but Runesmiths are pretty awesome, IMO. :smallcool:

Naturally, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Just displaying that while you're on one end of the spectrum (Eberron and having room for nearly anything), I sit closer to the other (race-class restrictions).


Still, if someone comes asking for half-orc subraces without cha penalty, mentioning desert half-orcs shouldn't offend anyone's sensibilities.

Yeah, like I said, I misread. :smallredface: