Swordsage/Warblade - good or bad idea?

[Kurai]

So, my GM has the grand plan to start a new, higher-leveled group and I got roped into it. Now I'm wondering what to play and stopped at the ToBs Swordsage.
(I'm already playing a Warblade in a PbP, so I don't want a repeat character).

We are most likely starting at level 12. The swordsage looked really nice, but then I thought it maybe would be nice to take two levels of warblade on top, ending with Swordsage 10/Warblade 2.

My reason: I really like the Uncanny Dodge, crazy hit die and extra Fort saves I get from the Warblade, but I love skill points and the idea of loads of maneuvers, so I wanted Swordsage to be the bigger class level.

Good, bad or mediocre eh-nothing-special idea? I'm always open for tips, especially if my ideas are poo-poo.

[Kansaschaser]

If you are going to be one of the main classes from the Tome of Battle, then it's typically best to just stay in that class all the way to level 20. The capstone for the Warblade is best since they can stay in two stances at once.

The only reason I would dip two levels of the Warblade is if you wanted to get into the Master of Nine prestige class. It has a lot of feat requirements, but the large number of maneuvers readied and learned is well worth it in my opinion.

[Big Fau]

You can get Uncanny Dodge with a feat these days (Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots, from Magic of Incarnum).

[Bakkan]

While Swordsage 10/Warblade 2 is not a bad build (it's tough to make a bad ToB build), I think you have some superior options.

I think your best bet is going straight Swordsage. To explain why, let me examine what you gain and lose from 2 levels of Warblade.

Gain:
d8 -> d12 hit die for 2 levels
+0.5 BAB (Assuming fractional BAB)
+2.3 Fort (Assuming fractional saves)
Uncanny Dodge
Battle Clarity (Reflex)
Weapon Aptitude
4 Warblade maneuvers known, one of which can be level 4, the others must be level 3 or lower
1 Warblade stance of 3rd level or lower

Lose:
+0.3 Ref and Will (assuming fractional saves)
Discipline focus(insightful strike) in a second school
2 Swordsage maneuvers of 6th level or lower and the ability to switch out another low-level maneuver for a higher-level one


The hit die increase amount to only 4 more hit points, which is fairly insignificant at 12th level.

The BAB increase only helps you a little (an extra +1 at half your levels form now on), and since you didn't mention it I gather you don't consider it a particularly important benefit, a sentiment with which I agree.

The Fortitude save boost is nice, but you can duplicate most of the bonus with a feat (Great Fortitude) or simply purchase a better resistance item. In addition, there are lots of ways to become immune to things that generally require Fortitude saves (necklace of adaptation is one of my favorites). In addition, you lose out on Reflex and Will saves. Will saves in particular are good to keep high.

Uncanny dodge is a nice ability, and since you will likely have a high Dex, is quite valuable. However, it is obtainable as a feat: Shape Soulmeld(Impulse Boots) from Magic of Incarnum grants you the uncanny dodge ability with no level investment needed.

Battle Clarity requires you to have a high Int to be very useful, which could be a problem if you are using a low to middling point buy or do not roll amazingly.

Weapon aptitude is of very narrow use, and is therefore not very valuable for most builds.

Depending on your Wisdom score, discipline focus(insightful strike) with another school could be quite useful or only OK.

For me, most of the benefits I've mentioned thus far come out about equal, so it's a matter of comparing the maneuver and stance possibilities.

If the Warblade levels are the last levels, you will have no 6th-level Swordsage maneuvers. On the other hand, if the Warblade levels are not the last levels, your Warblade maneuvers are all 3rd level or lower and you will have one 6th-level Swordsage maneuver. I would only consider this if there were some very specific Iron Heart or White Raven maneuvers I wanted to pick up, though that would be better served by simply taking Martial Study for those maneuvers. In fact, it would be better to do this as you would use your Swordsage initiator level for those maneuvers. The same goes for the Warblade stance, but even more so since you can only be in one stance at a time.

Note that if you go Swordsage 12, you wind up with 3 6th-level maneuvers (one at 11th, one at 12th, and one lower-level maneuver switched out for a 6th-level maneuver at 12th) as opposed to the one or none you would have with a Warblade dip.

In summary, most of the benefits of Warblade can be obtained using feats, and going straight Swordsage allows you to take advantage of more higher-level maneuvers more often.

[navar100]

If you're certain the campaign will reach level 16+, then you need the two levels to get your 8th level stance without spending a feat. A swordsage gets a stance at 14th level, not high enough for an 8th level stance. At 15th level, when you can first have 8th level maneuvers, you don't get a stance. To get the 8th level stance, 2 levels of warblade bumps your initiator level in swordsage by 1. Therefore, at 16th character level when you're swordsage 14/warblade 2 and get your stance, you can then pick an 8th level stance. This is the problem with all the martial adepts. The stance progression does not mesh well with when stances are available.

Warblade and swordsage share Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, and Stone Dragon. In swordsage you may want a good amount of Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and/or Desert Wind. You'll have a few of the first three. If there's a high level maneuver or two in those schools you want, warblade access can help you meet the prerequisites of known maneuvers in the discipline.

[Talbot]

Warblade also has a far superior recovery mechanic, so if you grab boosts or counters you plan to be using a lot (*cough*mind over body* cough) those two Warblade levels are pretty handy.

[Big Fau]

Warblade also has a far superior recovery mechanic, so if you grab boosts or counters you plan to be using a lot (*cough*mind over body* cough) those two Warblade levels are pretty handy.

Except you can't use it to recover Swordsage maneuvers, and you can't initiate a maneuver in the same turn you use the Warblade's recovery mechanic.

[Elric VIII]

A 1-level dip into Warblade at level 9 (Warblade IL will be 5) might be worth it since it delays your new stances learned to an odd level so that you can get a higher level than straight SS.

You can also learn 2 of the most powerful low-mid level maneuvers with that 1 level, White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge.

Stance:

Something from White Raven for WRT pre-req.

Maneuvers:

Iron Heart Surge - open-ended wording that removes harmful conditions.

Wall of Blades - good pre-req for IHS and can be used to increas your touch AC vs ray spells and other touch attacks, AFAIK.

White Raven Tactics - Give an ally an extra turn right after yours or allow him to go before an enemy whose initiative you've beat.


EDIT: my typing is horrible, fixed some errors.

[Jude_H]

Neutral idea.

ToB classes are very friendly for multiclassing into one another. As navar says, there's a certain amount of dipping that can be useful, and a 1-level initiator level delay is hardly something to get worked up about.

It can also be useful to have double layers of maneuvers. The dip may, for example, allow you to use Swordsage maneuvers specifically for offense and maneuverability, while the low-level Warblade counters cover for your saves, AC and any unfortunate conditions you might pick up.

[NNescio]

If you are going to be one of the main classes from the Tome of Battle, then it's typically best to just stay in that class all the way to level 20. The capstone for the Warblade is best since they can stay in two stances at once.

The only reason I would dip two levels of the Warblade is if you wanted to get into the Master of Nine prestige class. It has a lot of feat requirements, but the large number of maneuvers readied and learned is well worth it in my opinion.

Crusaders can afford to dip though, since their 'capstone' is rather lacklustre.

[Elric VIII]

Crusaders can afford to dip though, since their 'capstone' is rather lacklustre.

I thought the Crusader capstone is whatever they get at Crusader 9, since the have obviously taken at least 1 level of Cleric and 10 of RKV starting at 6.

[Godskook]

Crusaders can afford to dip though, since their 'capstone' is rather lacklustre.

Crusaders don't get a 'capstone'. They get a final progression value for a previous ability. Its like calling the rogue's last d6 of SA a 'capstone'.

[NNescio]

Crusaders don't get a 'capstone'. They get a final progression value for a previous ability. Its like calling the rogue's last d6 of SA a 'capstone'.

Hence the quotes. :smallbiggrin:

[Runestar]

A multiclassed martial adept is not a bad idea. You are essentially trading higher lv maneuvers for the opportunity to ready more of them. How much of each is up to you to tinker. A warblade18/swordsage2 is just as viable as say, a warblade10/swordsage10. :smallsmile:

[Kurai]

Thank you all for the quick and detailed replies! I will go over your reasons with a fine-toothed comb and mull over it for a while. But now I have a clearer look at the whole topic. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[navar100]

A 1-level dip into Warblade at level 9 (Warblade IL will be 5) might be worth it since it delays your new stances learned to an odd level so that you can get a higher level than straight SS.

You can also learn 2 of the most powerful low-mid level maneuvers with that 1 level, White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge.

Stance:

Something from White Raven for WRT pre-req.

Maneuvers:

Iron Heart Surge - open-ended wording that removes harmful conditions.

Wall of Blades - good pre-req for IHS and can be used to increas your touch AC vs ray spells and other touch attacks, AFAIK.

White Raven Tactics - Give an ally an extra turn right after yours or allow him to go before an enemy whose initiative you've beat.


EDIT: my typing is horrible, fixed some errors.

You need the two level dip because of the rounding down fractions rule.

[Irreverent Fool]

1 Warblade stance of 3rd level or lower


Doesn't the text of stances indicate that martial adepts only have access to first-level stances for the initial stance(s) they gain for any given class?



Stances: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level, you can choose additional stances.

[Veyr]

I would likely not play under any DM who felt that "begin play" referred to anything other than ECL 1st. That line is, I believe, descriptive rather than proscriptive. There is absolutely no reason why there should be a random exception for a single stance; that's just unnecessary and makes no sense in the context of the design of the rest of the system. Every other maneuver — including other maneuvers at class level 1st, including other stances at other levels, including stances taken with Martial Stance — do not have that limitation, and it makes no sense to apply it to that single stance.

[Greenish]

You need the two level dip because of the rounding down fractions rule.Swordsage 8/Warblade 1 has warblade IL 5, enough for 3rd level maneuvers. With three maneuvers and a stance, you can grab IHS and WRT, as well as prerequisites for them with just that one level.

Why would you need two?

[Hazzardevil]

A multiclassed martial adept is not a bad idea. You are essentially trading higher lv maneuvers for the opportunity to ready more of them. How much of each is up to you to tinker. A warblade18/swordsage2 is just as viable as say, a warblade10/swordsage10. :smallsmile:

Actually, If I had 19 warblade levels and then took a level in swordsage, I would then be able to have 9th level maneuvers in Warblade, I think.
The Initiater levels all stack, probably.


Crusaders don't get a 'capstone'. They get a final progression value for a previous ability. Its like calling the rogue's last d6 of SA a 'capstone'.

The Crusader has the worst class features, Full Stop...

[Veyr]

Actually, If I had 19 warblade levels and then took a level in swordsage, I would then be able to have 9th level maneuvers in Warblade, I think.
Yes, because you would have gotten one at each of 17th and 19th and then could have swapped a maneuver for another at 18th.


The Initiater levels all stack, probably.
No, they don't; a Warblade 19 who took his 20th level as a Swordsage would have a Swordsage Initiator Level of 10, and would qualify only for 5th level maneuvers as a Swordsage.


The Crusader has the worst class features, Full Stop...
Zealous Surge and Indomitable Soul are both quite nice. Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike are cool, but too small to be meaningful. Also, Crusaders have the best recovery mechanic.

[navar100]

Swordsage 8/Warblade 1 has warblade IL 5, enough for 3rd level maneuvers. With three maneuvers and a stance, you can grab IHS and WRT, as well as prerequisites for them with just that one level.

Why would you need two?

Misunderstood. I was focusing on the swordsage.

[Godskook]

The Crusader has the worst class features, Full Stop...

Steely Resolve is nothing to be scoffed at. The ability to delay damage can keep a PC up long enough to be healed, by self or ally, before death's door has a chance to open. Assuming, of 'course, that your DM isn't playing rocket tag with you.

Furious Counterstrike is the equivalent of Knowledge Devotion, but completely untyped and potentially 1 point higher(so better and stacks).

Mettle is much harder to get than Evasion, and Evasion > Feat.

Smite is mostly garbage, but that extra omph can be useful.

Die Hard is handy, and if your DM rules that it works like Ranger feats do, more the better.

Honestly, the truly best reason not to go Crusader 20 is that the maneuver progression cuts you out of 1-2 decent stances.