So what do you guys think of the Warlock?

[raxies94]

I've always been interested in the warlock, but have never played it in a game yet. I understand that it's not considered one of the more powerful classes, but what do you guys think? Is it fun to play? Can it be competitive at higher levels?

[Boci]

Its a very nice class with a suprisingly large amount of builds available, although neither will be particularly versatile. As for being useful at higher levels, that depends on the power level of the rest of the group. Its tier 4, so most likely yes.

Glaive lock is pretty famous. Highest damage since it can full attack with its eldritch blast.

Pixie warlock is good if you are starting at mid levels. Fun, and certainly annoying for your enemies, although you may need to invest in the invisible fogcloud trick.

What kind of a warlock were you thinking of playing?

[raxies94]

What kind of a warlock were you thinking of playing?

I wasn't thinking of playing one right now. But I'm interested in possibly playing one in the future. I don't know...I've seen a "Master Blaster" build using the Hellfire Warlock, I think. That might be interesting.

[gallagher]

you know, warlock is one of my favorite classes. they are incredibly versatile, arent gear-dependent, and can fill almost any party role with minimum effort.

[Boci]

you know, warlock is one of my favorite classes. they are incredibly versatile, arent gear-dependent, and can fill almost any party role with minimum effort.

Incredably versatile? They have a great replay value, but once you've rolled your character you've pretty much decided what it does no?


I wasn't thinking of playing one right now. But I'm interested in possibly playing one in the future. I don't know...I've seen a "Master Blaster" build using the Hellfire Warlock, I think. That might be interesting.

That build is pretty simple. Take a level of binder for fast healing con, and run by your Dm first, some cannot stand this combo. In such a case there are other options available to heal the lost con, such as rod of bodily restoration.

[theForce017]

I think the Warlock is an awesome class! Though it is not anywhere close to optimized, it is still fun. You have unlimited blasting power and a set number of invocations that you can use an unlimited amount of times. Some people say it sucks but I enjoy it.

[Boci]

Also, if you like the warlock you should try and get your hands on a copy of dragon magic. It has the Dragonfire Adept, which is a similar concept, so you may like it as well.

[Lateral]

It's a pretty good class, although I personally prefer the Dragonfire Adept. Hellfire Warlocks can be devastating, and they get some nice invocations (like Chilling Tentacles, for instance).

[gallagher]

Incredably versatile? They have a great replay value, but once you've rolled your character you've pretty much decided what it does no?


its all about what you invest in. i was more pointing at how they can fill several roles in a party without investing too much of their resources. they have an automatic ranged weapon that scales with level, your first invocation could get you the Glaive, you can get different blast shapes for crowd control, you have utility invocations that make you a good scout, UMD. you have a form a free flight and flee the scene gives you a get out of jail free card.

i would go on, but i think the list is extensive enough as is :smallbiggrin:

[Rejakor]

Warlocks are alright. I personally houserule them to get more invocations and faster, but i'm kind of like that.

They get a handful of truly good invocations, and there's a few other goodies they have/can pick up (shadowpouncing glaivelock, auto-UMD, crafting)... they're certainly not useless or boring.

[raxies94]

Glaive lock is pretty famous. Highest damage since it can full attack with its eldritch blast.


Also, what is this sorcery?

[Boci]

Also, what is this sorcery?

Glaive lock is in dragon magic. It allows you to turn your eldritch blast into a glaive and attack with it as a weapon. True_Shinken has a guide, lemme get it for you.

Here it is: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-159708.html
Ni idea why its archieved though, I thouyght he posted more recently on it.

[Lateral]

Shinken's guide can help. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8898052) Note that, while Eldritch Blade grants iteratives, it is not a weapon. That's a big deal. Eldritch Claws is a weapon, applies your unarmed damage to the attack in addition to the glaive, and gets two attacks at full BAB, but doesn't grant iteratives, isn't a touch attack, and doesn't have reach. Ideally, you want both.

[Zaq]

I like the Warlock a lot better once Greater invocations hit the table (since that's where most of the nifty BfC effects come into play), but they're not bad before then if you know what you're doing.

I also think it's cool that you can play one with straight 3s in every stat and be better off than you would be in basically any other class (aside from MAYBE a Bard who just sits in the back and sings). You can choose to need CHA, and DEX doesn't suck if you plan on blasting at all, but you don't strictly need anything. Hell, you don't even need CON that badly, since you can choose a pretty good number of built-in defenses. (Hell, with a permissive party, even just being 250 feet away with Eldritch Spear is a pretty good defense, though it doesn't work in every game.) Sure, you WANT CON, but you don't need it.

Anyway, you have to be aware of their limitations (it's very, very easy for a Warlock to fall into a pattern, and if you're not cool with that, you'll have to take steps to net yourself extra tricks . . . UMD is a good start), but they're pretty cool.

[Heatwizard]

I always liked them, but mainly because Fell Flight lets you fly all the time, any time.

[Luckmann]

I wouldn't presume to impose or derail a thread, but instead of starting a new thread, I thought I'd ask the collected warlockeers in this one in case someone knows;

Is there any specific reason the Warlock class hasn't been ported to Pathfinder? I've just thought it odd, because I sorta consider it one of the base classes.

[Velaryon]

Incredably versatile? They have a great replay value, but once you've rolled your character you've pretty much decided what it does no?



That build is pretty simple. Take a level of binder for fast healing con, and run by your Dm first, some cannot stand this combo. In such a case there are other options available to heal the lost con, such as rod of bodily restoration.

I second asking your DM first before trying to apply the Binder cheese. A lot of DMs wouldn't let that fly, since as I remember there's some grey area there as to whether it actually works. Aside from that, it takes away the one balancing factor of the Hellfire Warlock's rapid increase in blast damage, and some people just aren't cool with that.

Anyway, Warlock is a fun class. One thing that was pointed out to me the first time I asked about them is that Warlocks have a high level of visible power; that is, they can toss off their abilities all day without worrying about conserving their powers for tougher encounters or indeed, encounters at all.

A Warlock with Fell Animate can stroll through the bazaar and animate all the chickens being sold, just for the lulz, since he has all his powers at will and doesn't need components if he only wants temporary undead chickens.

This sort of thing makes them look more powerful than they actually are, and what Warlocks usually come down to is a pretty reliable magical archer with a few nifty tricks. Since they have medium BAB and their primary offense is a touch attack, they almost never miss, though spell resistance ruins their day unless they pick up Vitriolic Blast. I know melee Warlocks can be done, but I've never seen one in action so I can't comment there.

All in all, they're pretty cool and you can make them do a lot of different things depending on how you build them. Party face, support caster (with UMD), ranged specialist, secondary melee, battlefield controller, maybe even a few more.

[Veyr]

Is there any specific reason the Warlock class hasn't been ported to Pathfinder? I've just thought it odd, because I sorta consider it one of the base classes.
It's not Open Game Content, and therefore it would be illegal for Paizo to do so.

[Lateral]

I second asking your DM first before trying to apply the Binder cheese. A lot of DMs wouldn't let that fly, since as I remember there's some grey area there as to whether it actually works. Aside from that, it takes away the one balancing factor of the Hellfire Warlock's rapid increase in blast damage, and some people just aren't cool with that.
That's the Strongheart Vest trick; the Naberius trick heals the damage next round. It's not negating the damage at all; you just heal it next round. It makes sense thematically (Binders and Warlocks mesh well), it's not really that huge a deal (it's just damage, after all), and it burns a class level.

[Eldariel]

I second asking your DM first before trying to apply the Binder cheese. A lot of DMs wouldn't let that fly, since as I remember there's some grey area there as to whether it actually works. Aside from that, it takes away the one balancing factor of the Hellfire Warlock's rapid increase in blast damage, and some people just aren't cool with that.

No, if you actually take a level in Binder, you're set. Some people try gaining it through feats and that does not work since you only gain one ability (not the ability healing you want) through featz, and Strongheart Vest from Magic of Incarnum is likewise questionable. But Binder is 100% reliable.

This leads to the classic Warlock 4/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3, which is principally a tier 1 version of Warlock (gets Deceive Item, almost full invocations, full++ Eldritch Blast and full divine casting to boot, along with some particularly convenient class features; only important thing it misses out on is Imbue Item and that's quite unfortunate but nothing but straight Warlock really can acquire it making them somewhat sought after as NPC crafters or cohorts). Eldritch Disciple 10 isn't necessary as ED 9 gets you full Ur-Priest casting (you need UP 2 for Rebuke Undead), but it's cleaner than e.g. Mindbender 1 which would be the plausible alternative and you do get Gift of the Patron and Timeless Body (aka. +3 to all mentals with some time). Fluff-wise you pretty much gotta worship a dead god or some such to make this work. But that's fine; worshipping dead gods is what all the cool people do anyways.

[Luckmann]

It's not Open Game Content, and therefore it would be illegal for Paizo to do so.

Wha.. bu.. It's "Warlock".
Surely it can't be illegal to call something a Warlock and then make it have similar, but not identical, rules...? That sounds so freakishly backward.

[Veyr]

OK, I'm not a lawyer and I really don't understand how all this works, but here's how I think this maybe works?

Paizo publishes under the Open Game License. Among other things, this allows them to use/reference Open Game Content that it would normally be a copyright-violation for them to use. In return, they agree to not use certain material (non-Open Game Content) that would otherwise not be a violation.

So they get to use the whole D20 System thing, on the condition that they don't write their own Warlock. Or something like that.

[Shpadoinkle]

Wha.. bu.. It's "Warlock".
Surely it can't be illegal to call something a Warlock and then make it have similar, but not identical, rules...? That sounds so freakishly backward.

"Similar but not identical" is really iffy territory from a legal standpoint.

[CodeRed]

Wha.. bu.. It's "Warlock".
Surely it can't be illegal to call something a Warlock and then make it have similar, but not identical, rules...? That sounds so freakishly backward.

The Warlock as presented in Complete Arcane is copyrighted material. Even a close rip-off is illegal to do as Hasbro owns the right to that intellectual property. Could Paizo make a class for Pathfinder similar to the Warlock but different enough to get around all this stuff? Yes, but they'd probably prefer to avoid anything that could even come close to getting them sued and spend their creative energy on things that are distinctly their own.

[Mr. Zolrane]

I haven't attempted to do it myself, but I can't imagine porting the Warlock to 3.PF yourself would be all that difficult.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Incredably versatile? They have a great replay value, but once you've rolled your character you've pretty much decided what it does no?

Depends on the build.

One of my favorite warlock builds is Warlock6/Mindbender1/Chameleon2/HFW3/Binder1/Warlock7.

You pretty much get a wide variety of abilities:

Charm Person as an unlimited use SLA. If you can't figure out how to exploit this, you need to roll up something that doesn't require a lot of thought... Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, perhaps.

Mindsight and Telepathy 100'. No, really... you're the party's Radar as well as Log&Comm.

Chameleon2... floating feat. So very versatile. Need something made? Fine, bust out the appropriate item creation feat. Got a situation that a specific invocation to trivialize? Fine, it can do that too. It's got huge ability to make your character very adaptable.

As for why I didn't go into Legacy Champion? I wanted Warlock12 to be my very own magic-mart. I can make just about any damn thing. I can make my own wands, for example, which I can then UMD. This negates every argument of "Well, you can't always be expected to pick up x in any random town", because you can MAKE about 90% of the MIC yourself.

Then, after you are done cranking out cracksticks for the ClericZilla, the custom +30 to Spellcraft item for the Incantatrix, and the Vest of Legends, Badge of Valor, and Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade for the Bard... you switch it back to a bonus invocation to go adventuring with. After you make a Wand of Nerveskitter for yourself, of course.

Also, even a straight Warlock20 can be fairly flexible if he chooses his invocations wisely.

[bansidhe]

Any body got a ported too Pathfinder warlock thing,I was gutted when I found out there isint one!

And as were all here,Pathfinder classes only,whats a few good builds?
Id like too keep the crafting stuff as the above post,but also able too blast away/drop chilling tentacles/walls of flame etc fairly effectively! :D

Damm I love Warlocks!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Any body got a ported too Pathfinder warlock thing,I was gutted when I found out there isint one!

And as were all here,Pathfinder classes only,whats a few good builds?
Id like too keep the crafting stuff as the above post,but also able too blast away/drop chilling tentacles/walls of flame etc fairly effectively! :D

Damm I love Warlocks!

My build only loses three caster levels: the two from Chameleon and the one from Binder. Everything else advances invocations normally.

You have two invocations set in stone: Charm Person for Mindbender, and Hellrime Blast (or Brimstone blast) for HFW. The other 9 you get normally, plus the bonus floating feat which can be used on a different one each day, if you like.

[Luckmann]

My build only loses three caster levels: the two from Chameleon and the one from Binder. Everything else advances invocations normally.

You have two invocations set in stone: Charm Person for Mindbender, and Hellrime Blast (or Brimstone blast) for HFW. The other 9 you get normally, plus the bonus floating feat which can be used on a different one each day, if you like.Except that you've got Warlock classes and Pathfinder doesn't sport the Warlock (:smallfrown:). I appreciate what you did, but he explicitly said "Pathfinder classes only". :smalltongue:

I actually had to read both of your posts multiple times to see where the disconnect were, because for a second there I felt like you and I were reading different posts. For a second I wasn't even sure you had quoted the right post. :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

Incredably versatile? They have a great replay value, but once you've rolled your character you've pretty much decided what it does no?

The old 339 Warlock Build Guide and Compendium indicates that Warlock is a good entry into Chameleon, which is pretty much the poster child for 'versatile character'.

[bartman]

Person_Man did a quick conversion of the warlock for me a little while back, you can find it here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9790188&postcount=8) He made it a little more powerful, changed the invocations around a bit, and gave him a few nice goodies. I really liked it when I used it, and it was not OP, unlike a lot of homebrew classes.

[Yora]

I never knew how to fluff a warlock character. The ability seems okay, but I never find a place for them in my games.

[Noneoyabizzness]

locks can be fun. done the tibbit with themed power choices. craft wand+craft staff=not quite cleric wizard but can pass on some level after 13.

depending on the game, the tiering really isn't a concern. it can fit many concepts.

[Lateral]

Depends on the build.

One of my favorite warlock builds is Warlock6/Mindbender1/Chameleon2/HFW3/Binder1/Warlock7.

You pretty much get a wide variety of abilities:

Charm Person as an unlimited use SLA. If you can't figure out how to exploit this, you need to roll up something that doesn't require a lot of thought... Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, perhaps.

Mindsight and Telepathy 100'. No, really... you're the party's Radar as well as Log&Comm.

Chameleon2... floating feat. So very versatile. Need something made? Fine, bust out the appropriate item creation feat. Got a situation that a specific invocation to trivialize? Fine, it can do that too. It's got huge ability to make your character very adaptable.
If this build were to actually see play, wouldn't it make more sense to take the Binder level before the Hellfire Warlock levels, so you can use Hellfire Blast with Naberius earlier?

[Mr. Zolrane]

I never knew how to fluff a warlock character. The ability seems okay, but I never find a place for them in my games.

Never actually played with one, but I believe the default fluff is "angsty outcast who people hate because he can shoot not-magic from his hands." I like the warlock class, but if someone in your game wants to play a Chaotic Neutral Tiefling (drow base of course) Warlock whose only tiefling features are yellow eyes and tiny little horns RUN THE OTHER DIRECTION...

...

What I'm saying is that if played badly I can see how locks might open the door to more emo than one should ever be able to fit into one character.

[Veyr]

Never actually played with one, but I believe the default fluff is "angsty outcast who people hate because he can shoot not-magic from his hands."
Not... quite. Though kinda. The fluff is that they, or some ancestor of theirs, made a pact with a demon or devil or some such, and that's where their power comes from. It's something imbued into their very blood, so to speak. So multiclassing into Warlock isn't so much gaining new powers so much as discovering powers you already had, I suppose.

You don't really have to be angsty about it. People's reactions depend heavily on whether or not they understand the source of the powers. I'd imagine the majority of people who just think you're another Sorcerer.

There's also some sadly-underdeveloped alternate fluff about something with the Fey as a source of power, instead of Fiends. There's not really a lot of detail there, but it's presumably for CG Warlocks since WotC does seem to think that anyone who's using fiendish powers could ever be Good.

[Mr. Zolrane]

Not... quite. Though kinda. The fluff is that they, or some ancestor of theirs, made a pact with a demon or devil or some such, and that's where their power comes from. It's something imbued into their very blood, so to speak. So multiclassing into Warlock isn't so much gaining new powers so much as discovering powers you already had, I suppose.

You don't really have to be angsty about it. People's reactions depend heavily on whether or not they understand the source of the powers. I'd imagine the majority of people who just think you're another Sorcerer.

There's also some sadly-underdeveloped alternate fluff about something with the Fey as a source of power, instead of Fiends. There's not really a lot of detail there, but it's presumably for CG Warlocks since WotC does seem to think that anyone who's using fiendish powers could ever be Good.

I know. I was just oversimplifying for humor's sake. And no, you don't have to be angsty about it, but I feel like that would be the go-to response for the bad roleplayer.

As for the fey fluff... yeah, I saw that mentioned in passing in CAr. I might have to develop that some more. Fey in the setting I'm working on are... different that the default fluff to say the least, and are just as big of a threat to the Material Plane as fiends, albeit for different reasons.

But yeah, you're probably right about the "Fey are for CG locks" business. Wizards has been doing a good job of unsticking themselves from the "Always [Blankety Blank]" alignment descriptions, but old habits die hard. Unfortunately, Golarion (the Pathfinder setting for those who are unaware) seems to have taken a running leap in the opposite direction if their goblinoid descriptions are anything to go by. That is why as much as I love the Pathfinder system, I will never play in the Pathfinder setting. *rabbit trail*

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If this build were to actually see play, wouldn't it make more sense to take the Binder level before the Hellfire Warlock levels, so you can use Hellfire Blast with Naberius earlier?

Eh, there's gonna be a couple levels either way which is sub-optimal. Binder is pointless without HFW, after all.

[Divide by Zero]

Eh, there's gonna be a couple levels either way which is sub-optimal. Binder is pointless without HFW, after all.

Hardly pointless. It's not as good as another warlock level, but the abilities, especially the passive ones, are always nice to have.

[Lateral]

Eh, there's gonna be a couple levels either way which is sub-optimal. Binder is pointless without HFW, after all.

A single Binder level can be useful, and this way you only have one slightly sub-par level instead of three where you're gaining an ability you don't want to use.

[IthroZada]

Never actually played with one, but I believe the default fluff is "angsty outcast who people hate because he can shoot not-magic from his hands." I like the warlock class, but if someone in your game wants to play a Chaotic Neutral Tiefling (drow base of course) Warlock whose only tiefling features are yellow eyes and tiny little horns RUN THE OTHER DIRECTION...

...

What I'm saying is that if played badly I can see how locks might open the door to more emo than one should ever be able to fit into one character.

I've been wanting to play a Chaotic Good Hellbred Warlock//Unarmed Swordsage, with Eldritch Claws. The Warlock powers obviously come from his close brush with being damned, and he's a tad crazy and eager to do something particularly heroic. And not a trace of emo.

[NNescio]

I never knew how to fluff a warlock character. The ability seems okay, but I never find a place for them in my games.

http://ompldr.org/vOHR5ZQ/0f26ec5b2f4814a3a34961f66e234ca9.png

Binder/Hellfire Warlock. Comes with an a warlock sceptre in an oversized locked gauntlet.

[Zaq]

If I were ever to play a HFW, I'd probably make the obvious leap and say that your 'lock powers come from a really special and deep pact with one or more vestiges (depending on how over-the-top you want to get, you can say that the pact seal is carved on your soooooooooouuuuullll). 4e has a version of the 'lock that makes this explicit, I believe.

[MeeposFire]

Which the binder warlock or the vestige warlock?

[Kaje]

Warlocks are alright. I personally houserule them to get more invocations and faster, but i'm kind of like that.

They get a handful of truly good invocations, and there's a few other goodies they have/can pick up (shadowpouncing glaivelock, auto-UMD, crafting)... they're certainly not useless or boring.

Far as I can tell, a glaivelock can't shadowpounce unless you've got some way to teleport as a swift action or to get extra standard actions. And even that's assuming shadowpounce even works with dimension door...

So I suppose warlock 5/escalation mage 5 or 6/crinti shadow marauder 5 could work. Even then you've lost so much just to get a few extra full attacks per day. In gestalt, you can put those shadow marauder levels on the other side and fill in gaps with factotum or ardent.

[MeeposFire]

I am not certain eldritch glaive works with it at all. Eldritch glaive is a full round action (not a full attack action) that is not a weapon and it also only gives you the amount of attacks that you would get from your BAB (so no haste and the like). Shadow pounce says you can make a full attack but eldritch glaive does not actually make a full attack they just do something very similar and the invocation only makes qualifications about using it as the direct attacks it grants (which is not a full attack action) and for making attacks of opportunity and it makes no mention that it can be used when something grants you a full attack action.

[Rejakor]

Far as I can tell, a glaivelock can't shadowpounce unless you've got some way to teleport as a swift action or to get extra standard actions. And even that's assuming shadowpounce even works with dimension door...

So I suppose warlock 5/escalation mage 5 or 6/crinti shadow marauder 5 could work. Even then you've lost so much just to get a few extra full attacks per day. In gestalt, you can put those shadow marauder levels on the other side and fill in gaps with factotum or ardent.

Quicken SLA + Flee The Scene is usually the vehicle, that's the simplest method, but it has a /day limitation. The best builds for that sort of thing use psywar/ardent for dimension hop, + sources of PP to full attack twice per round. There's also a few gestalt builds that make use of swordsage teleportation, factotum standard action granting, etc. You can also have a template instead of DDoor to get into Shadowlord, which is generally again the route taken as DDoor is bleurgh to get.

Ofc it works better with Eldritch Claws, but then most meleelock builds do.

[MeeposFire]

I don't think that works as eldritch glaive does not give you an ability to use a full attack action.

[Tvtyrant]

Couldn't you just take Necropolitan and then Hellfire Warlock (or vice versa). No con means no con damage.

[Veyr]

Hellfire Warlock says you cannot use Hellfire Blast if you're immune to Con damage.

[Rejakor]

I don't think that works as eldritch glaive does not give you an ability to use a full attack action.

Doesn't have to. Anything, even a Mindless creature, can take a full attack action. Eldritch Glaive doesn't disappear after you use it, it just takes a full round action to summon, and incorporates a full attack into it's summoning. It lasts til end of turn. So if you have a belt of battle or something you can use it to full attack. Shadowglaivepouncing works on that principle.

[MeeposFire]

Doesn't have to. Anything, even a Mindless creature, can take a full attack action. Eldritch Glaive doesn't disappear after you use it, it just takes a full round action to summon, and incorporates a full attack into it's summoning. It lasts til end of turn. So if you have a belt of battle or something you can use it to full attack. Shadowglaivepouncing works on that principle.

You can take a full attack action but eldritch galive does no tever give you a full attack action to use and does not say anywhere that you can use it with a full attack action.

All it does tell you is that you can activate the eldritch blast as a full round action and you can make melee touch attacks at a number based on your BAB. It does not give you a full attack (as an example eldritch glaive does not work with haste and the like since you do not make a full attack). It then says you can use the glaive for AoO but still does not specify anything abut getting to use the glaive for anything else.

You are basing your reading on an assumption that since you make something similar to a full attack and get to make AoO that you can do everything that a weapon can do, but that is unsupported in the text.

[Divide by Zero]

Doesn't have to. Anything, even a Mindless creature, can take a full attack action. Eldritch Glaive doesn't disappear after you use it, it just takes a full round action to summon, and incorporates a full attack into it's summoning. It lasts til end of turn. So if you have a belt of battle or something you can use it to full attack. Shadowglaivepouncing works on that principle.

Not true. Eldritch Glaive is not a weapon, so you can't use it for purposes that require a weapon outside of what it specifically says.