CONTROVERSIAL QUESTION: You've been warned.

[visigani]

SPOILER


..sorta. This question pertains to violent acts of an intimate nature. If that sort of thing offends you, I apologize but it may be wise for you to not read the following question.

I ask because it is a moral question I am having difficulty grappling with in relation to the D&D universe. Again, the subject matter is distasteful but there are few resources available to have this discussion.




The question: In the event that a male Orc violently impregnated a female Dwarf against her will do you believe that dwarf would be more likely to terminate the pregnancy, and if not do you feel that the Orf child would be accepted as a member of an average clan by the clans leadership? in other words, would the majority or the minority view this offspring as an abomination and seek to terminate, exile, or otherwise destroy the child?

[Moriato]

That's a question of setting. Different societies have different views on such things, every different clan of dwarves may have very different ideas about it. There's really no "average" view. You'll need to ask your DM or whomever it was that came up with this particular clan of dwarves.

[visigani]

The dwarven people have an average. Yes, there's variation based on campaign but the dwearven people have basic tendencies.

If I took the dwarves straight out of the PHB... how would they react?

[Lateral]

Yeah, it really depends on the setting, although barring some sort of general abortion taboo, the dwarf is probably more likely to abort than normal.

The dwarf culture as given doesn't really speak about this, so it's really a question of setting. No more, no less.

[MarkusWolfe]

{Scrubbed}

[Rejakor]

You need to signpost this sort of thing a bit better than 'controversial question' in caps. You want to clearly state the kind of controversial thing you are discussing, so that people who have problems with that sort of thing/triggers can stay away from it.

Secondly, that question is campaign-dependant. Especially since under basic DnD3.5 rules, there's absolutely no such thing as a 'Orf'. Dwarves and Orcs can't interbreed.

Also, there's no such thing as 'standard DnD dwarven clans', unless you're talking something like FR. So again, you're the one who has created these 'clans', you're the one that needs to work out what the reaction would be to this circumstance.

[Jude_H]

This title is really unhelpful. Even the mouseover didn't give me any idea what was going on.

And for your question:

What's most interesting?
That's how it works.

[erikun]

I think that the ending the pregnancy/killing the newborn situation is best handled by how well your table will take such a thing. If the players are strictly against such a thing or likely to argue about pregnancy rights, then it's probably best to avoid that option regardless of 'realism'. I'd think a psudo-medieval setting would likely wait for the infant to be born rather than attempting to terminate a pregnancy.

As for what about the child? I'd say that largely depends on if an orc/dwarf union results in a dwarf or a mul. If the result is a full-blooded dwarf, then it would probably be a family shame but one that the entire community keeps quiet about. The child would likely be accepted, although any feats of strength would probably be talked about as "you-know-why" rather than something to cheer the dwarf on.

If the result is a mul (half-dwarf), then they probably wouldn't be accepted at all. If they kill the child or not depends a lot on the specific group of dwarves, although they'll likely put them in the lower caverns or undesirable jobs if kept alive - well out of sight of any non-clanmates.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Prohibitions on abortion are a relatively recent legal conceit, dating to the 19th century at earliest. Before then, inducing a miscarriage was considered an offense against the child's father, who in this case wouldn't have any legal standing.

That, and I am typically inclined to view Dwarves as being jealous of their bloodlines which is why there are no standard rules for half-Human Dwarves; otherwise, I treat the ability to produce viable offspring with other humanoid races as a Human trait no different than the same ability possessed by Dragons and Outsiders.

This one's really up to you, chief. What are your players comfortable with, and what do you think will make a better game?

If I were going to gut-check it, Dwarves would be against it but only if the child were a pure Dwarf. Possibly even a pure Dwarf within a given subrace.

And now I'm going to sit down and figure out exactly how every humanoid in the Monster Manual would respond. Eww.

[chainer1216]

you went with orf, rather than dorc? i totally would of went with dorc.

OT: theres a reason dwarves get bonus' to fighting orcs. theyre racial hate of them runs THAT deep.

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, I suppose you could delve into every book about dwarves and every bit of fluff and try to figure out a typical reaction.

But honestly, the decision is going to be affected by everything from the local economy to the mother's personality. Maybe this tribe really *hates* orcs, but this woman is desperate to bring new life into the world, but the local economy is so terrible she just can't afford a child, so she'll exterminate him and avoid the stigma.

The possibilities are endless, and you have to choose what works best for the narrative and what will hit the players in the right way.

[Tiki Snakes]

My instinct says that it's carried to term but strongly frowned upon and marginalised in society.

[KillianHawkeye]

Feed it to wolves.

Or, y'know, subterranean wolves.

[Telonius]

First point - if this is supposed to be happening to any of the PCs, the over-deity himself steps in to stop it. Period, the end, no further questions. You're more likely to have an albino squirrel throw an acorn at you, than to have anything good come out of that sort of situation. All attempts at versimilitude take second place to the players enjoying themselves, and it would be a rare party indeed where everyone would honestly be okay with that happening to a PC.

Now, in-universe and not relating to a PC, as others have stated, it depends on the setting. First of all, I assume interbreeding is a possibility, since the question's being asked. If she consumes a typical dwarven diet, it would probably give alcohol poisoning to any non-fullblooded child she might be carrying. If that's not the case, again, it would depend on the setting. How important is "clan purity" to your dwarves? Would she be seen as disgraced for not fighting to the death? Or are your dwarves more merciful, and consider any drop of dwarvish blood to be respected? Remember too, there is individual variation within each culture. The mother might decide to disregard local custom, whether it says to keep or kill.

[Darth Stabber]

If my current batch of PCs were involved it would be used in some sort of dark ritual to create some kind of new and horrible undead monster.

Honestly, I doubt dwarves would do an abortion perse, they would just drink more and take up pipe smoking. Besides, giving birth to a dwarf, that beard has to really itch on the way out. Did you know that Dwarves disolve in Nair?

[Coidzor]

The question: In the event that a male Orc violently impregnated a female Dwarf against her will do you believe that dwarf would be more likely to terminate the pregnancy, and if not do you feel that the Orf child would be accepted as a member of an average clan by the clans leadership? in other words, would the majority or the minority view this offspring as an abomination and seek to terminate, exile, or otherwise destroy the child?

If you pulled this on a player I feel the most likely event is you getting a fist through your jawbone than anything happening in game. If this is backstory for the setting, on the other hand...

From what I know of the default fluff, I do not believe a half-orc child would be accepted at all, though as to what they would do about it, I haven't the foggiest.

Taking the babby and finding a place to foist it off on someone seems like a decent enough hook for the party... And it'd offer some non-standard challenges and encounters. Especially if they're mark of justice'd to not just toss it in some bushes or are goody-goody types.

[Serpentine]

Again, depends a lot on just how you think your dwarves would work.

For your stock-standard, cliched as can be dwarf... Not sure. They might have abortion methods - I'd imagine it'd be fairly useful for a culture where both men and women are expected to fight - but how safe would they be?
I think I could see dwarves using the exposure method. Stick it outside the front door of the cave, to be eaten or adopted according to fate. That could make a pretty good story (back- or otherwise), actually... A half-orc half-dwarf picked up and raised by half-elf parents as a foundling or something like that.

[Zaydos]

In the back of the 2e Monster Manual there were half-orc dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and humans. They used normal stats for those species but were evil, because randomly generated evil NPCs couldn't be normal demihumans :smallsigh:

Excluding the height of "playing D&D will make you evil" half-orc dwarves do not exist. My theory has always been that's because they expose them on rocks at birth, somehow this seems more likely to me with dwarves than abortion.

[Luckmann]

In the back of the 2e Monster Manual there were half-orc dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and humans. They used normal stats for those species but were evil, because randomly generated evil NPCs couldn't be normal demihumans :smallsigh:

Excluding the height of "playing D&D will make you evil" half-orc dwarves do not exist. My theory has always been that's because they expose them on rocks at birth, somehow this seems more likely to me with dwarves than abortion.I prefer to think of it as rocks being exposed upon them.

*twirls beard*

[Rarodil]

The running understanding amongst my group of friends relies on the cliche of dwarves drinking (a lot). The first test of the viability of a child is whether it can tolerate all of the drinking its mother will do. We figured dwarves have probably evolved to have more alcohol-tolerating babies and this also provides a nice circular explanation as to why dwarves drink so much, they're addicted from pre-birth.

[visigani]

Orcmul

Orcmuls are the result of the union of a pureblood orc and a dwarf. As the dwarven hatred of orcs is legendary only dwarf females have been known carriers of Orcmul as the notion of coupling with an orc female is anathema to all but the most depraved of dwarf males.

Nevertheless, such a child brings out the worst in the Dwarven people. The first victim is usually the mother as they are unable to reconcile their loyalty to their people and their intense hatred of the orcish race. Many would-be mothers of Orcmul take their own lives within days or weeks of conception, often encouraged by family and friends who rationalize the honor of slaying the thing inside the mother's belly as a self sacrificing path to redemption for the mother. Others end their lives simply because they cannot handle the knowledge of the horror growing within their bellies.

Despite the propensity for suicide among Orcmul mothers, outright abortion is culturally frowned upon. This is interesting in light of the fact that many dwarfs are open about their disdain, if not outright hatred for the child and not even the child's mother is immune to this, as she is often the worst offender. Child abuse among dwarven households is unheard of, save in the homes of Orcmul children. This is all the more traumatic for Orcmul as they are born with the dwarven love of clan and kin.

Growing up, even learning the language is difficult for the majority of Orcmuls as they are simply not acknowledged. It's difficult to learn to talk when nobody talks to you in anything other than screaming tearfilled rage. Because of this the overwhelming majority of Orcmuls are functionally illiterate. Orcmuls that speak anything other than rudimentry Common and Dwarven are rare.

One would hope that the Orcmul would be blessed with the finer traits of their Dwarven and Orcish heritage, that they would be immensely strong and virtually unkillable. Unfortunately this just isn't so. Orcmuls possess neither the Orcish strength nor the Dwarven constitution that help define both of those cultures. Instead Orcmuls tend to be clumsy, slow of mind, and incredibly ugly by either Orcish or Dwarven standards. As a final humiliation, Orcmuls, like their half-human Mul counterparts, are born hairless. They cannot grow beards. Coupled with the fact that they are often hideously disfigured as a result of the combination of orcish and dwarven traits, many Orcmuls choose to wear masks or full faced helms to hide their deeply felt ugliness and shame.

In light of all of this the Orcmul could have a heart of hate and not be faulted for it. They could be blackhearted and vicious, cruel and unkind and if one could not excuse their actions they could at least understand them. Yet, and perhaps this is why they are so reviled amongst the Dwarven people. Despite the pain and the torment, the abuse and the cruelty Orcmuls seem to be virtually unbreakable. Few, if any, are outright evil and almost none are chaotic. Strangely enough the overwhelming majority of Orcmuls lean towards Lawful Good and a disproprtionate number seem to adopt the calling of the Paladin. Moraddin Soul-Forger does not share his peoples disdain. He has made it painfully clear to his clergy that the Dwarf Father counts Orcmuls as among the most cherished of his children, and it is among the clergy that Orcmuls find even a passing semblence of acceptance.

Despite all the sorrows of their birth, Orcmuls are granted a single blessing. There is no race known that has the kind of intuitive grasp of combat that Orcmuls do. Orcmuls take to combat as other races take to poetry, song, and dance. Orcmul Generals would be legendary if anyone ever acknowledged they were at the forefront of their army. Among all the creatures of the earth few are as naturally adept at combat as these, the cast away children of the All Father.

Orcmul Traits (Ex)

Orcmuls possess the following racial traits.

-2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma.

Medium size.

An Orcmul’s base land speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision out to to 60 feet.

Warcunning: An Orcmul may use their wisdom modifier to qualify for any feat on the Fighter bonus feats list. Orcmuls have access to the Fighter bonus feat list regardless of their class.

Weapon and Armor Intuition: Orcmuls increase the benefits of feats (such as Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, Improved Trip, Shield Specialization, or Spell Focus and Spell Penetration feats) that numerically improve their combat prowess by an additional +1. This does not apply to feats that increase range, grant extra ttacks, or caster level. Nor does this apply to metamagic feats.

+2 Insight bonus on saving throws against Fear and Pain effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls.
+2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
+2 racial bonus on Sense Motive, Bluff, Spot or Listen checks that are related to Combat.
+2 racial bonus to Will Saves.

Illiteracy: Regardless of class orcmuls are illiterate unless the spend the requisite skill points necessary to become literate. For any class that requires spellbooks or otherwise heavily relies on reading to function, an illiterate Orcmul must spend the necessary skillpoints to become literate or they may not adopt the class. Illiterate orcmuls may not read from scrolls.

Language Barrier: -3 to all charisma based social skills, such as diplomacy, intimidate and bluff. Requires two points of intelligence modifier for every bonus language rather than one.

Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, Undercommon.
Favored Class: Paladin.

[Malificus]

Without more information, my stance on this is a matter of effect>cause.

Does the orc child grow up to be a troublemaking young man, ready to go out into the world? Either for adventure, or to find out what is race is like? The he wasn't treated well growing up.

Does the orc child grow up a kind child, protected by his mother? Then he wasn't treated well by society growing up, and they move away together, or she gets killed and he gets kicked out, having lost the one connection he had to the dwarves.

Does the orc child grow up to be a strong member of the community, adapting dwarven mannerisms, and sensibilities? Then he's a proper dwarf and was treated as such.

Does the orc child grow up, longing to be a part of dwarven society? The he was not accepted into their society, but will be when he saves them from a threat, or proves himself through his dwarven ingenuity and orcish strength.




If the story is about his mother, than it depends on how she handles it. if she cuts of ties with the baby, it will be disposed of, or at best, raised in a church to the dwarven god as a priest/cleric.

If she pleads with the other dwarves to let her keep it, they begrudgingly accept, and the story, concerning the half-orc, is mostly defined by him now as shown above.

If she flees with the half-orc baby to stop any sort of anti-half-orc-baby killings, then she is an outcaste from society, and the half orc grows up only knowing it's dwarven heritage from her. If she was close to her family like a proper dwarf, they should try to reconcile, and accept her. If she wasn't, they begrudgingly accept her choice to leave.

[visigani]

Really what I tried to do was take the best inner qualities of the orcs and the dwarves and give the worst external qualities of each with a bit of vigorish thrown in. Note, they primarily gain the finest of these qualities from their dwarven mother.

[KillianHawkeye]

Orcmul stuff

While the fluff you've provided is a very interesting read, the racial features are wonky and terribly unbalanced.

[visigani]

While the fluff you've provided is a very interesting read, the racial features are wonky and terribly unbalanced.

How so? /10char

[Yahzi]

You want a realistic medieval society?

They kill the dwarf.

[Serpentine]

Kill which dwarf? :smallconfused: If you mean the mother, that's highly unlikely. Considering raped women to be adulterers was religion-specific and went out of fashion in ancient times.
If you mean the offspring, that's... also highly unlikely - killing babies went out of fashion (at least in Europe) in ancient times.
Basically, by the time "medieval Europe" came along, killing mothers for rape and unwanted children was no longer condoned, at the very least not publically.

[Spiryt]

You want a realistic medieval society?

They kill the dwarf.

I find that an interesting stereotype...

"Realistic medieval" must suck. Do everything to make it suck. If any member of society is content, do something about it. :smalltongue:

I wonder where it comes from.

[Serpentine]

I find that an interesting stereotype...

"Realistic medieval" must suck. Do everything to make it suck. If any member of society is content, do something about it. :smalltongue:

I wonder where it comes from.More than that, though, in this particular case it's just plain wrong :smallconfused:

[Spiryt]

More than that, though, in this particular case it's just plain wrong :smallconfused:

That's my point, as most of stereotypes are plainly wrong, especially if they're about history...

[KillianHawkeye]

How so?

First, a net -10 to ability scores?? :smalleek:

Second, the Warcunning ability is worded a little strangely. Does their Wisdom replace Strength for the purposes of feat prerequisites? Or Dexterity? Or Constitution? Or Intelligence? And just what does it mean that they have access to a Fighter's bonus feat list? Many classes don't even grant bonus feats, so I'm not sure what benefit that is.

Third, a flat racial bonus to attack rolls, armor class, or saving throws is highly unusual. These types of bonuses are typically limited to certain situations or types of enemies.

Fourth, the Weapon/Armor Intuition and Language Barrier features just seem kinda off to me (in addition to being highly unusual). I guess Intuition's usefulness depends on how Warcunning actually works, but it seems like it could either be really powerful or kinda useless. I also don't understand the point of nerfing social skills or bonus languages.

So basically, the race is a bit far "outside the box" compared to any of the official races. It uses a lot of nonstandard rules, which is where my reservations about the game balance are coming from. Not to mention that it seems to only be good at one thing (being a Fighter). Is it supposed to compete evenly with the core races?

[Viktyr Gehrig]

How so? /10char

-10 total penalty to ability scores, including two of the scores that their Favored Class relies on.
Neither parent race has a penalty to Dexterity.
The Charisma penalty for both races is only -2.
Orcs have a +4 bonus to Strength and standard Half Orcs have +2.
They have a racial ability that reduces the prerequisites of all combat feats and increases their benefits, linked to an ability score that does not make sense and that the race itself gets a penalty to.
They have an attack bonus that applies to all attacks instead of attacks with a specific weapon or against a specific type of enemy.
Likewise, they get a dodge bonus to AC that applies to all attacks.
They get a -3 penalty to Charisma based skills in addition to their -4 Charisma.

This is all over the map and almost none of it makes any sense.

[Coidzor]

You want a realistic medieval society?

Don't have dorfs or dwarves. Medieval society doesn't really mesh well with their fluff, they seem more like the last remnants of antiquity, really.

[visigani]

-10 total penalty to ability scores, including two of the scores that their Favored Class relies on.
Neither parent race has a penalty to Dexterity.
The Charisma penalty for both races is only -2.
Orcs have a +4 bonus to Strength and standard Half Orcs have +2.
They have a racial ability that reduces the prerequisites of all combat feats and increases their benefits, linked to an ability score that does not make sense and that the race itself gets a penalty to.
They have an attack bonus that applies to all attacks instead of attacks with a specific weapon or against a specific type of enemy.
Likewise, they get a dodge bonus to AC that applies to all attacks.
They get a -3 penalty to Charisma based skills in addition to their -4 Charisma.

This is all over the map and almost none of it makes any sense.


It makes sense in the context of the race... which is a race that must overcome a disability of sorts from the word go. They're the world's losers. They're stupid, clumsy and incredibly ugly.

Seriously, do you think a cross between an orc and a human would be terribly attractive? Further, a lifetime of abuse at the hands of their dwarven clan would only serve to further reduce their sense of self wort (and therefore their charisma).

They're uglier than dwarves or orcs... and they have less self worth as well.



Externally and physically, even mentally they are the cast off children. They're an impediment.

But, almost like an idiot savant they possess a definite good streak and they are past masters at combat not because they're the biggest, the strongest, or the most unkillable... but because they have an intuitive grasp of it that few other races can achieve.


When i say access to the fighter bonus feat list I mean they can be paladins that can use weapon specialization at level 4, AND get a +1 bonus to it. Same with Improved Trip, which would grant a +5 instead of a +4 bonus.

However, to even qualify for this feat would require they invest in wisdom... typically a dump stat for fighters.... and one they themselves take a penalty to.


They're a race that starts off grossly weak by comparison, foolish and fumbling and without value.

By the time they make high levels they're a force to be reckoned with and far and away superior than either dwarves or orcs when it comes to combat.

This couldn't be something i made them right out of the starting gate else the fluff would have to have the dwarves and orcs grudgingly acknowledge their combat superiority.

In this case, it's only the Orcmul who are cast away, or driven from their homes... the exiles.. who have a chance to shine. And shine they do.

[Tvtyrant]

Kill which dwarf? :smallconfused: If you mean the mother, that's highly unlikely. Considering raped women to be adulterers was religion-specific and went out of fashion in ancient times.
If you mean the offspring, that's... also highly unlikely - killing babies went out of fashion (at least in Europe) in ancient times.
Basically, by the time "medieval Europe" came along, killing mothers for rape and unwanted children was no longer condoned, at the very least not publically.

I disagree with the second statement; infanticide was a major issue in Spain into the 1500s. It was also fairly common across Europe until the Black Death, when population decline set in.

[Coidzor]

It makes sense in the context of the race... which is a race that must overcome a disability of sorts from the word go. They're the world's losers. They're stupid, clumsy and incredibly ugly.

Gully dwarves, eh? Those are just a joke in Dragonlance. Do you want this race to be nothing more than a joke? :smallconfused: Because that's going to strike many people as kinda tasteless to make a rape-based joke race.

[visigani]

Gully dwarves, eh? Those are just a joke in Dragonlance. Do you want this race to be nothing more than a joke? :smallconfused: Because that's going to strike many people as kinda tasteless to make a rape-based joke race.



You know full well that's not what I'm going for. I'm going for a person born out of a terrible situation, faced with incredible obstacles, and overcoming them to become not simply a valued member of society but a powerful force for good in the world.

{Scrubbed}

There's NOTHING in the fluff text that indicates they're a joke race... unless you find maternal suicide, child abuse, societal rejection, deep feelings of shame and ugliness to be indicative of "humor".

{Scrubbed}

[Coidzor]

-10 total penalty to ability scores, including two of the scores that their Favored Class relies on.
Neither parent race has a penalty to Dexterity.
The Charisma penalty for both races is only -2.
Orcs have a +4 bonus to Strength and standard Half Orcs have +2.
They have a racial ability that reduces the prerequisites of all combat feats and increases their benefits, linked to an ability score that does not make sense and that the race itself gets a penalty to.
They have an attack bonus that applies to all attacks instead of attacks with a specific weapon or against a specific type of enemy.
Likewise, they get a dodge bonus to AC that applies to all attacks.
They get a -3 penalty to Charisma based skills in addition to their -4 Charisma.

This is all over the map and almost none of it makes any sense.

This is what is being reacted to. And it very strongly reminds me of the way that people reacted to reading the gullydwarves' stats.

So, my suggestion to you is to modify how you're expressing your concept so that what you want to communicate is more clear.

[visigani]

This is what is being reacted to. And it very strongly reminds me of the way that people reacted to reading the gullydwarves' stats.

So, my suggestion to you is to modify how you're expressing your concept so that what you want to communicate is more clear.



You want me to modify a post I didn't write, to clarify a position I didn't take, so that you aren't reminded of a creature I didn't make, in order to not create a reaction I didn't intend?

{Scrubbed}

[Coidzor]

You want me to modify a post I didn't write, to clarify a position I didn't take, so that you aren't reminded of a creature I didn't make, in order to not create a reaction I didn't intend?

Your race write-up provoked that response and your defense of it combined with the initial responses you received sparked the connection to be made and the warning to be given.

[visigani]

Your race write-up provoked that response and your defense of it combined with the initial responses you received sparked the connection to be made and the warning to be given.

My race write up didn't provoke a "gully dwarf" response.

Your justification for comparing them to the gully dwarves was based on a post I didn't even write.

You're saying *I* need to be more clear so that the information you get SECOND HAND (while entirely ignoring my original post) is less likely to remind you of something I didn't write.

{Scrubbed}

[Ozymandias]

My race write up didn't provoke a "gully dwarf" response.

Yes, it kind of does, and that post you're asserting wasn't yours is essentially a précis of what you did write.

Races aren't supposed to represent the way characters who are members of them are treated. Rather, they're inherent qualities of the race. For example, it's usually assumed that elves are demographically wiser or more intelligent than humans, but the standard elf race doesn't give any bonuses to that effect. Humans in Neverwinter are demographically much smarter than harbormen, or whatever, but it's not because of the Human race.

Think about it - say an orcmul child is abandoned (or whatever) and spirited away to a far-off city where he or she is treated more or less as a normal child, or a curiosity at worst. They still can't read without spending skillpoints, even though an - orc - would be able to in that circumstance. Or say a free-spirited dwarf and orc fall in love, elope, and live in the forest as druids or something. Sorry, your kid is still inexplicably illiterate.

Of course, maybe this is not or cannot be the case in your campaign - even if you want to have all the orcmul characters the players meet, or even all the ones that the exist in the campaign have these penalties, do so - but do it because it describes each of the characters, not the race itself. If you put it in the race block it means that it's not because of the character, it's because of the race - which, considering that they're generally the product of rape, has some unfortunate implications, intended or not.

[visigani]

Yes, it kind of does, and that post you're asserting wasn't yours is essentially a précis of what you did write.

Races aren't supposed to represent the way characters who are members of them are treated. Rather, they're inherent qualities of the race. For example, it's usually assumed that elves are demographically wiser or more intelligent than humans, but the standard elf race doesn't give any bonuses to that effect. Humans in Neverwinter are demographically much smarter than harbormen, or whatever, but it's not because of the Human race.

Think about it - say an orcmul child is abandoned (or whatever) and spirited away to a far-off city where he or she is treated more or less as a normal child, or a curiosity at worst. They still can't read without spending skillpoints, even though an - orc - would be able to in that circumstance. Or say a free-spirited dwarf and orc fall in love, elope, and live in the forest as druids or something. Sorry, your kid is still inexplicably illiterate.

Of course, maybe this is not or cannot be the case in your campaign - even if you want to have all the orcmul characters the players meet, or even all the ones that the exist in the campaign have these penalties, do so - but do it because it describes each of the characters, not the race itself. If you put it in the race block it means that it's not because of the character, it's because of the race - which, considering that they're generally the product of rape, has some unfortunate implications, intended or not.


Yet all dwarves inexplicably get dodge bonuses against giants, all elves are proficient with the long sword and all Gnomes seem to be uncanny in their knowing of kobolds.

Sorry, your argument doesn't even make it past the phb.