Truenamers in my campaign...

[Wyntonian]

Ok, so it's universally accepted that truenamers are about the most poorly-designed class of all time, and are generally about tier 5-6. However....

I have a character in a RL campaign that seriously wants to take the class. How can I let him do it without being dead weight on the party and completely reworking the entire class? Here's some options....

* Letting him free-gestalt with another totally gimped class (Like what?)

* Working a bunch of truename-helping items ((Greater) Amulet of truespeak, etc.) into the campaign specifically for him.

* Letting him gain about 110% experience.

Other thoughts?

[Boci]

There are some truenamer fixes in the homebrew forum which you could look into.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Let him gestalt with a tier 3 or lower class.

[JaronK]

Let him have an Item Familiar to boost his True Naming skill, and let the repair utterance work on spell tiles (Complete Adventurer). That ought to work reasonably well if the rest of the party isn't too strong.

JaronK

[TroubleBrewing]

Encourage him to play a psionic character of some kind which you can re-flavor as Truenaming?

Seriously, has he looked at the manifold guides, "this has been my experience with truenaming" journals, and other handbooks for Truenaming available to him online?

Just take a cursory look at Zaq's guide. It'll change his mind.

[Zaq]

How . . . far are you willing to go, good sir? Running the LoS over with a very large truck that is on fire Removing the Law of Sequence will be a decent start, but not really a finish. Does this player of yours particularly enjoy the skill-based casting mechanic? If so, definitely at least give them access to the Paragnostic Assembly (Complete Champion), and ideally a custom item as well. Between those two, it's easy enough to get a sufficiently high bonus to your Truespeak checks that you don't really have to start rolling for quite a while. The biggest problem (aside from the LoS), of course, remains the fact that the Truenamer's abilities just aren't that good, no matter how reliable they are (though, admittedly, a Reversed Word of Nurturing is nearly impossible to defend against . . . but it's not terribly threatening, either).

How creative is your player? That . . . helps.

I cannot, in good faith, recommend playing a Truenamer. It is an immensely frustrating experience. If the GM is cooperative, as you most certainly seem to be, it is not impossible, but your player must be very patient and, ideally, rather rules-savvy.

If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to try to answer them.

[Veyr]

Ok, so it's universally accepted that truenamers are about the most poorly-designed class of all time, and are generally about tier 5-6.
Actually, no. Truenamers are explicitly excluded from the Tiers, on the basis that it "just doesn't work". The Truenamer does not have a Tier.

[BluesEclipse]

Give him this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961) truenamer fix. It's not only playable, but actually works rather well.

[Telonius]

I'd recommend that both you and the player read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269)thread, also posted in Zaq's signature. The most important takeaway paragraph:


There's no easy fix for the Truenamer. Contrary to what some people believe, fixing the Truespeak DC mechanic wouldn't make the class good (better, perhaps, but not good). All else being equal, even giving them their Utterances at-will wouldn't really make them very powerful (the no-save effects are nice, but not gamebreaking by any stretch). The Law of Sequence needs to be shot repeatedly in the face, and the Utterances need to be heavily rebalanced to actually be level-appropriate. By the time you'd be done, the class wouldn't be recognizable anymore. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the point is, this isn't just a bad implementation of a good core. It's a bad idea through and through. Truly shameful that they wasted such brilliant fluff on such a terrible class.

Even shorter version: Even if it worked, it's terrible at what it's supposed to do. I can't speak to the fix BluesEclipse posted, but I'd recommend against using the class as-written, even as the only Gestalt character in a party full of non-gestalts.

[Psyren]

I recommend Kyeudo's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9803366), and not just because I helped refine it. It's great at all levels and stays closer to the ToM version than Kellus' does.

Not to say that there's anything wrong with Kellus', I just personally think it more elegant to fix a class with minimal additions.

[Noneoyabizzness]

have the character rewrite his own truename eventually when he decides he wants to become a better class and just put in a better character then. already has a built in origin story and can kinda dr. who regen himself into something cooler :smalltongue:

[Luckmann]

Actually, no. Truenamers are explicitly excluded from the Tiers, on the basis that it "just doesn't work". The Truenamer does not have a Tier.Oh dear god, I laughed so hard at this.

:smallbiggrin:

[Ason]

I have not tried it myself, but I know that Paizo is currently playtesting Word (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-4-words/words-of-power) Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/paizo-products/pathfinder-rpg-line/ultimate-magic/chapter-4-words) for its upcoming release "Ultimate Magic." It seems like they're trying to take the idea behind the Truenamer but make it an alternate class feature for all spellcasters. Perhaps it will offer a way to let your player get his desired features without forcing him to play the infamous Truenamer class. Again, I've not tried this out myself, but it looks like it might help.

[Veyr]

From what I've heard, Word Magic is basically Epic Spellcasting.... before Epic levels. I'm reasonably certain that the system cannot be balanced as a result.

If it can, though, my respect for Paizo will increase immensely. But even if it can be done, Paizo really doesn't strike me as the people to accomplish it.

[Big Fau]

But even if it can be done, Paizo really doesn't strike me as the people to accomplish it.

Right. Paizo isn't known for being able to balance things out.

[Wyntonian]

I truly do appreciate all these responses I've been getting, but my question remains: What do I tell this player? No, stfu? Choose something else? Gestalt freely with another joke class? Or totally relearn how to use a truenamer with a fix?

[Veyr]

A fix is necessary. If he thinks that Truenamer is playable, there won't be anything to relearn because he hasn't learned anything about the Truenamer yet.

[Zaq]

I truly do appreciate all these responses I've been getting, but my question remains: What do I tell this player? No, stfu? Choose something else? Gestalt freely with another joke class? Or totally relearn how to use a truenamer with a fix?

If I may be so vain as to suggest it, you could have him read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269). Ideally all of it, since I did add a lot in the discussion that didn't get directly added to the three main posts.

[Wyntonian]

So.....throw him a bunch of bones (amulets, truespeak organizations in the world (not too hard,) and random skill bonuses/ allowing weird skill feats), and get rid of the laws of sequence/that other horrible one? I guess that could work. And Zaq, I'll make sure he has that guide tattooed on his hand so he always has it. Or maybe I'll just keep a printout for him. Either way.

[Zaq]

If I can prevent anyone else from having as frustrated a time as I did, then I have succeeded. I usually use my thread as sort of a warning (the best advice I can give you about playing a Truenamer is, well, not to), but if I can use it to convince the GM (i.e., you) to remove some of the more odious parts of the class and let the player have fun . . . well, on some level, it was worth it.

Liberal access to skill boosts and the extremely prejudiced and bloody assassination removal of the Law of Sequence will probably put him on par with a (no more than moderately optimized) Warlock. Removing the LoS is probably the biggest favor you can do for him, since I found myself swearing at it far more often than I found myself swearing at anything else. As I've proven, it is possible to play a useful party member even with the LoS standing in your way at every turn, but it tends to be harder.

Also, if he plays anything like I did, he'll end up with some really crazy high knowledge checks. Between the INT focus, the illumian Naen sigil, the urging of the Paragnostic Assembly to get as many knowledge skills as high as possible, Universal Aptitude, Hidden Truth, and the occasional Knowledge Focus class feature? Yeah, I knew some things. Being crazy knowledgeable is one of the few tricks a Truenamer can naturally do terrifyingly well, and if he's anything like me, he'll notice this strength and latch onto it wholeheartedly. Try not to be surprised or frustrated when he says "I got a 61 on my K:Architecture and Engineering check. What do I know about the golem?" ("Don't you only have a couple ranks in K:A&E?" "Yeah, but I rolled a 15.") Make sure that you have something to tell him when he rolls high enough to know the entire history of the thing's species and then some. I don't think it's a good idea to just hand him the relevant page of the Monster Manual, but you should still have a fair bit to tell him.

You might consider allowing him to get into prestige classes and having them advance Truenaming. I dunno if he's into that sort of thing, but there are no prestige classes that advance Utterances (well, ok, Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster technically do, but they don't count and you know it). If he's interested in class features beyond what the Truenamer gets, you might consider working with him to treat Truenaming like spells for the purposes of being advanced by PrCs. If he actively likes the knowledge focus (instead of just doing it because it works), Urban Savant (Cityscape 100) is a pretty cool class (and it offers a much better array of class skills) for the first 9 levels. You'll have to work with him to find a class that's both interesting and appropriate (just saying "eh, you count as a spellcaster now" doesn't always work). He might want something that lets him fill a different niche besides Party Know-It-All, though, so something that just lets him be a better know-it-all may or may not appeal to him. Of course, he might be happy to just stay a 'namer. More power to him, I suppose.

Oh, one more note for you . . . unless he gets his Truespeak check up to "don't bother rolling—no, not even if you're Quickening it" range, you have to be aware of the CR of anything he's facing. If you use any monsters that aren't 100% straight out of the book, make sure you have the numbers ahead of time. If you're homebrewing stuff, this is especially difficult (since a lot of the GMs I've played with tend to assign CRs to homebrew creatures only after they've seen how they hold up in actual play), but just do what you can. If he's really cranking his check, of course, he can just say "OK, that'll affect anything up to CR 19," ("Aren't you guys level 10?" "Yeah, what's your point?") and then you can dodge that particular bullet.

I guess a lot depends on whether he really enjoys the whole "let's see how many obscure bonuses to this one skill I can find" aspect, or whether he enjoys the tensions of the "will I succeed or will I fail? Let's find out!" aspect, or whether he just wants to use his powers like every other class in the game, or what. I don't know what actually drew him to the Truenamer class. It may have been the fluff. It may have been the challenge of taking one of the most despised classes in the game and seeing if he's good enough to make it work. (I know it was a combination of those two for me.) It may be that he just genuinely thinks the Utterances are cool. It may be that he actually likes skill-based casting and doesn't always want to succeed. I find those last two a little hard to identify with, but I don't want to assume that everyone plays the game the way I do. He might like the risky nature of Utterances. (Of course, whether the party likes having a caster who has, at best, a 70% chance [or whatever] of succeeding at anything is another matter.) I just kinda realized that I've been assuming that he views the challenges a Truenamer faces as bad, instead of as fun obstacles to overcome. If he actually wants to be challenged, then by God, give him what he wants. Just . . . make sure that he knows that you're willing to work with him if he changes his mind about any of it.

Out of curiosity, what level are you starting at? Also, do you know the rest of the party's makeup?

[Draz74]

I truly do appreciate all these responses I've been getting, but my question remains: What do I tell this player? No, stfu? Choose something else? Gestalt freely with another joke class? Or totally relearn how to use a truenamer with a fix?

I'm under the impression that Kyeudo's Fix is close enough to the original Truenamer, it won't really require relearning anything.

[Tvtyrant]

If you took the Factotum's SLAs/SA away then you could probably gestalt it and use font of inspiration to make good Truenaming checks.

[Zaq]

If you took the Factotum's SLAs/SA away then you could probably gestalt it and use font of inspiration to make good Truenaming checks.

1) The Factotum's "+yes to any skill" only works once per skill per day. (That said, I am a fan of Factotums taking Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind to learn Universal Aptitude.)
2) Making your Truespeak rolls isn't as hard as it seems (it's an investment, but there ARE enough ways to do it that you should be able to find one or two that your GM allows). Factotum's a great class, but it doesn't mesh with the Truenamer. (What does? Very little, actually. A Truenamer would be pretty terrible in gestalt, since it has almost no passive benefits and demands at least three or four of your feats. The exception is if you can buff your check high enough to consistently Quicken, in which case you can always find a use for your swift action . . . but it's still resource-heavy. If you had your heart set on playing a Truenamer in a gestalt game, I'd recommend a class that offers a lot of out-of-combat utility, since the 'namer is lacking there. In that sense, I suppose that Factotum isn't a bad choice . . . what was I talking about?)

[Divide by Zero]

and get rid of the laws of sequence/that other horrible one?

Actually, I don't think the Law of Resistance is that bad. Assuming the character can make the checks in the first place, it's the only limiting factor on their abilities. Getting rid of it basically makes their options binary - either you can make the check, and spam whatever you want all day, or you can't make the check, and never do anything. So unless you can replace it with something better (or rework the system entirely), I'd keep it.

[Veyr]

Actually, I don't think the Law of Resistance is that bad. Assuming the character can make the checks in the first place, it's the only limiting factor on their abilities. Getting rid of it basically makes their options binary - either you can make the check, and spam whatever you want all day, or you can't make the check, and never do anything. So unless you can replace it with something better (or rework the system entirely), I'd keep it.
The Truenamer doesn't really have any abilities that would be that potent even if they were at-will. At least, not until 20th. That is actually the biggest problem with the class — for all the problems getting it to work, even when you do, it's not all that impressive.

[Divide by Zero]

The Truenamer doesn't really have any abilities that would be that potent even if they were at-will. At least, not until 20th. That is actually the biggest problem with the class — for all the problems getting it to work, even when you do, it's not all that impressive.

It's more of a fluff issue for me, though. Get a bonus to your skill check, and suddenly you can do it all day long when you couldn't at all before.

[Rei_Jin]

I played a Truenamer in a PbP game, gestalted with a bard. It worked fabulously, because I was able to use the Bardic Knowledge ability to research Truenames. Combine that with the flexibility of the Bard, and you could be onto a winner.

If you're worried about how he'll go with his Truename checks, push him towards taking levels in Exemplar after level 10. The ability to take 10, add +4 to the skill check, gain a free Skill Focus, etc... those things will help.

[Godskook]

@Zaq, why did you not use Marshal in your Truenamer adventure. It would've significantly increased your check results.

[navar100]

Get rid of the x2 multiplier in the DC formula.

[Psyren]

Get rid of the x2 multiplier in the DC formula.

Making it totally linear would actually be a bit OP. Remember that you can ignore SR with Utterances simply by raising the DC by 5, and skill checks are very easy to boost.

Kyeudo's fix instead moves the x2 to the Utterance level rather than the target's CR - making it still raise quickly enough to matter for your top utterances while keeping your powers usable in high-level encounters.

[Veyr]

Making it totally linear would actually be a bit OP.
There are two things wrong with this statement:
It's still "totally linear" if the 2 is in there; the multiplier is just changing the slope of the line.
Even if Utterances were at-will and ignored SR always, they're just not that dangerous; it still wouldn't be nearly as OP as anything a Tier 1 or 2 class can do. If the Law of Sequence is still in play, the Truenamer would still be a weak Tier 4/5, IMO. Without the Law of Sequence, they can do a bit more, but I doubt they'd be much trouble for your average Tier 3. I don't have Zaq's experience, obviously, but between what he's written about them and from what I've read about the Utterances themselves, I'm reasonably confident in that statement.

[MeeposFire]

Assuming you could use them at will and access to quicken (and that was at will) they would be better than tier 5 I think. It would be like a warlock with less maneuverability but with more tricks focused on buffing but weaker blasting but then it can be a competent secondary healer.

[Veyr]

Law of Sequence means you cannot use the same trick on two different targets at once, and the Truenamer gets infuriatingly few tricks. That massively reduces the thing's ability to contribute.

Note, though, that I said Tier 4/5: that's still quite a bit better than a lot of classes. I didn't say Tier 6.

[Zaq]

@Zaq, why did you not use Marshal in your Truenamer adventure. It would've significantly increased your check results.

1) It also would have cost me another level, and I'd already sacrificed one level of progression for Human Paragon.
2) My CHA was only +2, if memory serves. Not really worth a level.
3) Checks were never an issue. I think I failed once, and that was when I was Quickening an Utterance that I had been using all day against a boss-type. Getting a high check isn't a problem. Doing something with that high check is the problem.

[MeeposFire]

Law of Sequence means you cannot use the same trick on two different targets at once, and the Truenamer gets infuriatingly few tricks. That massively reduces the thing's ability to contribute.

Note, though, that I said Tier 4/5: that's still quite a bit better than a lot of classes. I didn't say Tier 6.

I have looked at the list you will have several options to use every round especially at high levels when you have many to use at once. At higher levels you should be able to find two utterances to use very round especially since the lower versions of the same thing count as distinct utterances (so a lesser word of nurturing can be used in the same round as a greater word of nurturing).

EDIT: By the way I am just saying tier 5 would be a little low in my opinion tier 4 is a good possibility though an at will truenamer is a bit more versatile than most tier 4s I think.

[Zaq]

I have looked at the list you will have several options to use every round especially at high levels when you have many to use at once. At higher levels you should be able to find two utterances to use very round especially since the lower versions of the same thing count as distinct utterances (so a lesser word of nurturing can be used in the same round as a greater word of nurturing).

EDIT: By the way I am just saying tier 5 would be a little low in my opinion tier 4 is a good possibility though an at will truenamer is a bit more versatile than most tier 4s I think.

While this is not, strictly speaking, false, neither is it nearly so true as you'd like to think.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

My 2c as minimal errata:

Page 195's Speaking a Truename should read: "you must succeed on a Truespeak check with a DC equal to 15 + the creature's Challenge Rate If you're saying the truname of a PC, the DC is 15 + the PC's Hit Dice" and "To speak a magic object's truename aloud, the Truespeak DC is 15 + the item's caster level."

Page 231's Recitation's should read: "All recitations are immediate actions that do not provoke attacks of opportunity." "The DC for the Truenaming check is 15 + your HD + 2, once you increase the DC by 2 for speaking a personal truename."

Page 231's Recitation of the Meditative State should remove the text starting with: "If you are frightened or panicked,"

Page 232's Speaking an utterance should read: "the DC for the check is 15 + target creature's CR or HD for a PC" instead of "the DC for the check is 15 + (2 X target creature's CR)"

Page 233's The Law of Resistance should instead read: "so each time you successfully speak an utterance in a day, the DC of your Truespeak check each subsequent utterance that day is increased by 1."

Remove Page 233 and 234's The Law of Sequence.Removing the Law of sequence puts the Truenamer in T5 territory.

Removing the 2 multipliers put the Truenamer barely into T4. Consolidating the law of resistance is icing. Its the same reason why pp are easier to keep track of than spell slots. Its actually a nerf, but one your players will gadly embrace.

As is well known, the reason the Truenamer can't escape T4 is that the utterances simply doesn't have good things. Here goes enough buffs to make hoarding a bunch of utterances feel like a good thing rather than a waste of ECL.

Accelerated Attack's duration should read 1 hour.

Archer's Eye's duration should read 10 minutes.

Breath of Cleansing's duration should read 5 rounds.

Breath of Recovery's duration should read 5 rounds.

Caster Lens's duration should read 1 minute.

Confounding Resistance's duration should read 1 hour. Add to the end: "This ability similarly reduces mettle or similar abilities."

Defensive Edge's duration should read 1 hour.

Eldritch's Attraction should read "Saving throw: None"

Energy Negation should read "Level: 2"

Essence of the Lifespark should read "Level: 4"

Ether Reforged should have added "You may likewise shift a target to the material plane."

Hidden Truth's duration should read 5 minutes.

Incarnation of Angles' duration should read 1 hour.

Inertia Surge's duration should read 5 rounds.

Knight's Puissance's duration should read 1 hour.

Knight's Puissance, Greater's duration should read 1 hour.

Morale Boost's duration should read 1 hour. The normal effect should instead read "The target ally gains immunity to fear. You may not target yourself."

Mystic Rampart's duration should read 1 hour.

Percieve the Unseen's duration should read 1 hour.

Preternatural Clarity's duration should read 1 hour.

Seek the Sky's duration should read 1 hour.

Seek the Sky, Greater's duration should read 1 hour and its level should be 4.

Silent Caster's duration should read 5 minutes.

Singular Mind's duration reverse should read concentration + 5 rounds. Add "or equal" at the end of the normal effect.

Speed of the Zephyr's duration should read 1 hour. The reverse should read "reduced to 10 feet" instead of "reduced by 10 feet." Add "This penalty does not stack with any others."

Speed of the Zephyr, Greater's duration should read 1 hour.

Strike of Might's duration should read 1 hour.

Temporal Spiral's duration should read 5 rounds.

Temporal Twist should read "this utterance stacks." instead of "this utterance has no effect."

Visino Sharpened's duration should read 1 hour.

Word's of Peace should add after "This utterance does not prevent the warded creature from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells" the text "that were already in affect, but do not allow those abilities to be attempted if they would have the target creature."

Word of Bolstering should be level 2

Word of Nurturing, Minor, Lesser, Moderate, Potent, Critical, and Greater should have their durations read 1 minute


Agitate Metal should have the range entry read 30 ft./level while the target entry should read "Metal equipment of one creature per level; or one metal object weighing no more than 50lb./level.

Analyze Item should read "you learn all effects," instead of "you learn one spell with each use of this utterance,"

Fortify Armor's duration should read 1 hour.

Keep Weapon's duration should read 1 hour.

Metamagic Catalyst's duration should read 1 hour.

Rebuild Item should have the entry sentence "This utterance has no effect on any item that has been destroyed for more than 1 round" deleted.

Sieze Item should read 300ft. for its duration and "One object weighing no more than 500 lb." for its target

Suppress Item's duration should read 5 rounds + concentration.

Suppress Weapon's duration should read 5 rounds + concentration.

Transmute Weapon's duration should read instantaneous.

Anger the Sleeping Earth's duration should read 1 hour.

Conjunctive Gate's duration should read 1 hour.

Deny Passage's duration should read 1 hour and should have added "This ability effectively blocks teleportation and planar travel during its duration as well."

Energy Vortex's duration should read 1 hour.

Fog from the Void's duration should read 1 hour.

Lore of the World's duration should read "within your current plane" instead of "within one mile."

Master the Four Winds' duration should read 1 hour.

Shield of the Landscape's duration should read 1 hour and its area should read 100ft. radius spread, centered on you.

Shockwave's Saving Throw entry should read "None."

Speak to the Mud's duration should read 1 hour.

Thwart the Traveler should remove its duration entry and change "dimensional lock" to "forbiddance"

Transform the Landscape's duration should read 1 hour.

Random aesthetics buff: I hate wonky progressions, and getting a few utterances earlier won't hurt anything. For both utterances known and level of them: Make the - a 1 for crafter tool and bump up the perfected map 3 so there are 4 4's at the end. Now it looks like a nice pretty, normal progression.

As you can see the simplest way to make these flavorful but fleeting effects useful is to simply crank up the duration. Combined with the fact a Truenamer doesn't have to overoptimize the checks, means that they are useful to the party like a craft-o-matic warlock or a suboptimal heal-bot cleric. Don't expect it to be a DMM(Persist) cleric or a hoardificer. Obligator