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theonesin
2011-05-27, 10:16 PM
By virtue of mechanics(race and deity stuff), my character in a game HAS to be evil. I don't have a real problem with this, but it's how my character interacts with the party that I'm unsure of.

This campaign is actually being rebooted because the party derped too bad, so I know the basic premise: Some person was more or less turned into an omnipresent and extra powerful entity, and we have to stop him (either by killing or returning him to his previous state). The party is in no condition to do this yet though(the reboot happened because the BBEG kind of nuked the world in a way).

So, regardless of alignment, my character has an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality, but past that I don't know what do to. How can I best mesh with the party?

Also, I'm looking for any suggestions on potential backstories. The character is basically a "fairy magic user", but obviously worships a evil, if sealed, entity. I don't need anything elaborate, but just a small base would be nice.

Thanks.

dsmiles
2011-05-27, 10:21 PM
Well, the easiest way (in DnD) would be to be Lawful Evil. The Lawful Evil archetypes have a better sense of "enemy of my enemy," and all that. It's a more pragmatic evil, and will use the party towards their own ends, while acting like they're his/her bestest friends. (Obviously, I'm gravitating towards the Face role in this thinking.) It's all about manipulation.

Randel
2011-05-28, 12:30 AM
play chaotic evil, then whenever there is a moral dilemma just flip a coin. Don't do what the coin says (that would be pretty stupid) just flip a coin and do what you want to do and if anyone asks just say that the coin told you to do it.

Example: Some evil guy is tied up and you have the choice to kill him or spare him.

1. Decide on the two possible choices ("kill" or "spare") and which heads or tails your coin would land on for you to do that thing.
2. Flip the coin.
3. Look at the result and if you don't like it then lie and do what you want to do anyway.
4. This way you can totally do what you want while making people think you're a dangerous chaotic sociopath who makes ethical decisions based on a coin toss!


with chaotic evil you can also argue that you're trying to kill that guy just because you feel like doing so. Or you don't like the idea of someone stronger than you.

Oh, and if there is a paladin in the party or anyone even else who's alignment depends on them being good then be a team player and steal their kills. If a good aligned character tries to kill anyone there is the slight chance that it will be interpreted as an evil act and they will fall as a result. If you make it a habit of stealing all their kills then you can soak up any negative karma they would have gotten.

Doorhandle
2011-05-28, 03:57 AM
Well, with all the killing and looting most parties do, and not to mention any excrement and shenanigans, a lot of them might qualify for evil themselves, depending on the beholder.

Having a character who tires to use that logic on the P.Cs would be fun.

Also, just because you're evil, doesn't mean your disloyal. You could be like Richard from Looking For Group; hilariously evil and otherwise selfish, but devoted to the group none the less.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-05-28, 04:09 AM
Contrary to popular belief, evil characters and good characters needn't always be apposed to each other. Consider where your loyalties may lie, not just to your enemies but to your friends as well... This really works better with neutral but I suppose it could work for evil as well. You could, for instance, be a paragon of virtue but be on a first name basis with a corrupt world leader, simply because these things happen in the real world. Talk with your fellow party members about it. Maybe you and another party member know each other from before-times. Your ally doesn't realize right away that you are evil. Maybe he thinks he can help you "see the light" or whatever. But I always liked the friendship beyond alignment to allow people of different world-views to work together.

Serpentine
2011-05-28, 04:49 AM
First of all, common goals can go a long way. You might disagree on the methods, you might have completely different world views, but you all agree on the goal. Just gotta work out why.

Also a good thing to remember: Evil can have friends. I suggest talking to the other players and seeing if you can work out a way you can have a strong connection to another character.
For example (though not Good/Evil), in my game for a long time there was a slightly elfcentric Chaotic Good Rogue elf with a fondness for thievery and fashion, and a terrible fear of undead. There was also a human-raised Lawful Good Cleric (of an LG human god) elf with a stick firmly installed. They had pretty extremely different worldviews and philosophies, and despite being the same race had very different backgrounds. And yet, they had been very firm, fast friends ever since the latter rescued the former from wandering zombies (in their backstory).

Yora
2011-05-28, 07:17 AM
The most important thing is to not play an evil character to annoy the other players. That done, almost all problems are avoided. :smallamused:

At the most basic level, Evil in D&D seems to be a lack of compassion for people you don't regard as friends. If it does not harm your goals or ruins your day, the suffering of others is of no concern to you. Neutral characters generally have at least some degree of decency and don't want others to suffer unless they have a personal reason to wish that person harm. But evil people are mostly unmoved by the plight of others and don't think much about sacrificing them if it serves their goal.

But since your character is traveling and working together with good characters, he needs their support and has to stay on their good side. Not because he likes it, but because not doing so would be a problem for his goals.
As long as his personal interests are not challenged, the good characters can be as charitable and nice as they want. But when it comes to obstacles that put the success of their endavours at risk, an evil character could be the "voice of reason" and explain to them that they don't have time for charity work and demand that they leave the people in need be and continue with their quest. In extreme cases, one could even ignore the wishes of the good characters and murder people who are slowing the group down without asking his companions, but usually that would get him on their bad side so he'd not just cut the ropes of the bridge while there are still refuges on it and such.
But simply by stating that the group should sacrifice people and ignore pleas for help or mercy would be a good way to play out the evil part without causing the other characters to kick him out or kill him. And once everyone has become accustomed to the party dynamics, one might also start to push the boundries more than usual by doing things the others don't approve of, but given the situation have to be acceted after the fact. But go slowly to get an idea how far you can go before the other characters consider him more of a burden and a threat than a valuable addition to the group.

Have you decided on a specific race and class and do you know more details what the capaign will be like?

Kiero
2011-05-28, 07:25 AM
By virtue of mechanics(race and deity stuff), my character in a game HAS to be evil.

Cop-out. You chose those mechanics, they weren't forced upon you.

Tengu_temp
2011-05-28, 07:43 AM
Don't be
Belkar from OotS, Black Mage from 8 Bit Theater or Richard from Looking For Group. They're characters from mostly comedic settings. In a more realistic game, good party members stuck with a guy like this would kill him the moment he murders his first innocent for lulz.

Be
Jayne from Firefly. You're selfish, you're willing to get your hands dirty and you have little respect for those who are not your friends, but you are loyal to your friends and will stick with the group and its goals. And you don't kick puppies for fun.

Serpentine
2011-05-28, 07:53 AM
I would quite like to know what sort of Evil this character is. What is it about his personality, world-view, actions, beliefs, goals, and/or philosophy that makes him Evil? Psychopathic killer, sadistic bastard, cunning manipulator, ruthless exploiter, petty prick, bitter cynic who expects nothing from the world and offers it nothing in return, or what?

Frozen_Feet
2011-05-28, 07:56 AM
First of all, don't be evil towards your party members. They're your friends, remember?

Second, when demanded to stop by them, stop. They are your friends, remember?

Third, devil is in the details. A couple of minor, covert bad acts is as evil as one overt act. Remark how good domestic animals would taste when you pet them. Crush insects under your heel for the lulz. Steal an apple, flip off a policeman, kick a puppy when the other players are looking away. Express speciest, racistic and otherwise non-humanistic viewpoints in casual conversation. ("I mean, gnomes aren't even real people...")

Fourth, when violence is obviously a valid choice, jump at the chance and use most brutal, sadistic means possible. Kick your enemies when they're down. Be the one to suggest the cruelest option "because it's effective" whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Fifth, if other party members call you out, act horrified. Say it's all an misunderstanding. Promise to behave yourself, even if you have no intention to. Act hurt, and try to mollify them. After all, you are their friend too...

Serpentine
2011-05-28, 08:07 AM
See, that doesn't work for me at all. That's not a character, that's a stereotyped alignment wearing a character-shaped skin. It's as bad as suggesting that a Good character should go around being a rainbows and lollypops goody-goody two-shoes who gets all in a tizzy any time someone steps on an ant, or who recommends that their dwarf should be sure to be a surly, beer-swilling, axe-wielding beard-bro with a Scottish accent. Sure, you can do that, but it's pretty boring and a long way from your only option.

dsmiles
2011-05-28, 08:21 AM
See, that doesn't work for me at all. That's not a character, that's a stereotyped alignment wearing a character-shaped skin. It's as bad as suggesting that a Good character should go around being a rainbows and lollypops goody-goody two-shoes who gets all in a tizzy any time someone steps on an ant, or who recommends that their dwarf should be sure to be a surly, beer-swilling, axe-wielding beard-bro with a Scottish accent. Sure, you can do that, but it's pretty boring and a long way from your only option.

HEY! What's wrong with lollipops? :smalltongue:

Megaduck
2011-05-28, 08:33 AM
Ok, some thoughts. An evil character can have friends, loved ones, and even morals. However, an evil character prioritizes them-self over everything else.

A good character and an evil character might both like the candy. The evil character however isn't going to be bothered by the fact that the candy hurts someone else.


Also, I'm looking for any suggestions on potential backstories. The character is basically a "fairy magic user", but obviously worships a evil, if sealed, entity. I don't need anything elaborate, but just a small base would be nice.

My first question here is this, why does your character worship this evil entity?

I am not fond of Evil for Evils sake. I much prefer characters that have a reason for their evil. In this case, what is your character getting out of worshiping the sealed evil in a can?

Whatever it is, the character is willing to ignore people possibly getting hurt or killed (by the evil entity) in order to get it.

So, to answer your question. First, you need to decide what your character wants. Then you can figure out why being part of this group helps him/her get it.

Toofey
2011-05-28, 08:34 AM
Never forget the power of personal friendship in overcoming alignment obstacles. Once you roll play getting to the point where you like your enemy's enemy then you'll be able to do things to help them because you like them. (unless you dm doesn't grasp the concept) You may think they're silly and their view of the world horribly naive and pedantic but they're your shmucky friends and woe to any who give them trouble.

Spiryt
2011-05-28, 08:45 AM
Ok, some thoughts. An evil character can have friends, loved ones, and even morals. However, an evil character prioritizes them-self over everything else.


I don't think that's even needed at all, he can prioritize others, in whatever way, try to stick to their morals or whatever, just fail when it's most important and do bad. Cannot practice what (s)he preaches, and all that.



bitter cynic who expects nothing from the world and offers it nothing in return,

As long as she wouldn't really offer anything, including harmful deeds, that would be pretty much neutral.

Serpentine
2011-05-28, 08:46 AM
As long as she wouldn't really offer anything, including harmful deeds, that would be pretty much neutral.That's a broad, vague generalisation for an overall world-view, not the entirety of a character concept :smallsigh:

Traab
2011-05-28, 09:58 AM
I say spend your time manipulating a party member into being evil. Take baby steps, dont go straight into, "Lets burn the orphanage down and roast marshmallows over the baby ashes!" Start small, "Hes a bad guy, of COURSE its ok to beat the information we need out of him!" Then next time use the word torture. Just take baby steps and go with the "shades of grey" outlook on life until you managed to turn someone evil. Bonus points for doing it in such a way that it isnt even noticed till he crosses the line. Try to get the dm to work with you by not announcing any alignment changes. Obviously that wouldnt work so well with say, a paladin, but any other class whose alignment doesnt effect their abilities would be fine.

Ajadea
2011-05-28, 09:59 AM
Fourthing the recommendation of friends or even family members in the party. They are your idiots, your stupid, squishyhearted, unnecessarily heroic friends. No one gets to hit them but you, no one gets to insult them for those utterly ridiculous 'morals' except you. At least, not if they want to keep their intestines off their pristine dungeon floor.

Evil people don't care who they hurt in pursuit of their goals. That goal can be 'take over the world and stomp over everyone in my way', but it can also be 'keep my friends safe, keep society stable, and stop this shmuck from rending the world in two'.

The latter sounds like a pretty Good goal, but when you burn down a village to serve as a sacrifice to devils because you need to run a two-pronged assault to defeat the aforementioned shmuck and don't want to have to deal with two groups of squishyhearted friends running in different directions and getting distracted by lost puppies or even dying because you aren't there to protect half of them...

It's not good. It's pretty blatantly Evil, actually, and this sort of thing is pretty extreme for an evil PC. But to the evil character, it might be fine; that village was on the edge of society, so it won't destabilize anything, their friends can stay in one group (safety in numbers and all that), more allies is never a bad thing, and every devil they call to the Material Plane is one that the Evil Overlord cannot.

oxybe
2011-05-28, 10:37 AM
Contrary to popular belief, evil characters and good characters needn't always be apposed to each other. Consider where your loyalties may lie, not just to your enemies but to your friends as well... This really works better with neutral but I suppose it could work for evil as well. You could, for instance, be a paragon of virtue but be on a first name basis with a corrupt world leader, simply because these things happen in the real world. Talk with your fellow party members about it. Maybe you and another party member know each other from before-times. Your ally doesn't realize right away that you are evil. Maybe he thinks he can help you "see the light" or whatever. But I always liked the friendship beyond alignment to allow people of different world-views to work together.

this +1.

one of my longest played characters was CE.

he was the only original PC to finish the campaign and saved the world in the process, with a side order of dealing the final blow to the BBEG.

now, there was no feeling of "i have to save the world!" or "it's the right thing to do" no.

it was entirely "THIS GUY IS TRYING TO DESTROY THE WORLD?! BUT ALL MY STUFF IS THERE!!!"

lets set a few groundrules first:

-DON'T BE DISRUPTIVE TO THE GROUP. this applies to all flavors of alignment and every character, because a Lawful Jerky PC is just as disruptive as a Stupid Evil PC.

regardless if you would have been making a good, neutral or lawful PC, you would still make one that would mesh with the group, right? you wouldn't make a paladin who had a blinding hatred of rogues, in a party containing a rogue, would you?

make a PC who will work as part of a team first and foremost and knows where he fits in the team dynamic.

in our group Shump was part scout, part artillery, part "guy who does the jobs no one else wants to". he wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty and git 'er done, to use the vernacular.

-CREATE A CHARACTER, NOT A ONE DIMENSIONAL STEREOTYPE. a CE character is not just "MWAHAHAHAHAHAH MURDEREDRUM TURQUOISE BICYCLE :twitcheye:". they have goals and motivations, just like everyone else, the difference is that they don't really have the same moral or ethical hangups most normal folks do.

that doesn't mean they've let all reason slip by.

Shump took the mantle of "adventurer" mainly because it had better PR value then "murderous magical hobo". as such he obeyed the laws enough to not get the attention of the local authorities.

on the flipside, the local authorities knew if they wanted someone/thing taken out (like say a rogue thieves' guild or a goblin burrow) they knew Shump would have no issues murdering baby gobbos or painting the walls of the absurdly spaced sewers "rogue blood red".

he was an engine of destruction to be pointed in a direction the city wanted. a strong believer in "Ordered Chaos", everything worked out in the end

now he wasn't discreet about his moral or ethical leanings (well, the lack thereof), but he was willing to put aside his (lack of) values and tow the line if needed.

Shump wanted power. he was facinated by it. he loved it. he also loved monkeys and had a fear of spiders (especially "boat spiders") but that's another thing entirely. Shump knew that adventurers tend to get hired to do things normal folks fear to do or go where they fear to thread.

and this normally lead to power.

you can be evil and have friends. you can be evil and have things you care about. as much of a nasty, horrible person Shump was, he did befriend a few people, not all of whom were irredeemable monsters like him. he had a pet monkey he honestly cared deeply for and bonded with. he also did want to save the world, if only because it contained all the stuff he actually cared for.

dsmiles
2011-05-28, 11:45 AM
When I play evil (non-Face) characters, I tend towards this particular archetype (http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0003815/). It's probably Lawful Evil, with emphasis on the Lawful.

Seb Wiers
2011-05-28, 11:50 AM
Start small, "Hes a bad guy, of COURSE its ok to beat the information we need out of him!" Then next time use the word torture. Just take baby steps and go with the "shades of grey" outlook on life until you managed to turn someone evil. Bonus points for doing it in such a way that it isnt even noticed till he crosses the line. Try to get the dm to work with you by not announcing any alignment changes. Obviously that wouldnt work so well with say, a paladin, but any other class whose alignment doesnt effect their abilities would be fine.

This, to me, seems the most like what real-life evil is.

Also worth noting is that the OP said the class / religion combo required the character to be evil. I'd turn this around and say the class / religion combo MAKES the character evil, and the onus is on any good-aligned PCs to react to that appropriately, as opposed to on the evil PC to portray petty nastiness.
For example, if the character is a necromancer who gains power from Orcus, well, they may not actually be especially prone to ****-ish behavior on a person-to-person basis, but they are obviously evil. Even if they don't do anything bad to the PCs or those around them, good PCs should be offended by this persons beliefs and past history. Necromancy covers the practice of enslaving souls in bodies where they still suffer the pains of death (until their nerves rot away, at least) ... if you don't have a problem with that, I'd question whether you can make a claim to any good alignment.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-05-28, 12:06 PM
By virtue of mechanics(race and deity stuff), my character in a game HAS to be evil. I don't have a real problem with this, but it's how my character interacts with the party that I'm unsure of.
Do you even want to play an Evil character? :smallconfused:

It doesn't sound like you particularly care about exploring the Evil Alignments when RPing this character. If that is true, then just play however you want. As long as you aren't making trouble for the party, nobody is likely to complain that you aren't "debasing or destroying innocent life."

If you actually do want to play an Evil Character, it's best to keep your debasing/destroying to incidental NPCs or going with Poke The Poodle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PokeThePoodle) style antics. Y'know, harassing old ladies and sassing harmless peasants. Save the real Evil for the Final Act when nobody can do a damn thing to stop you :smallamused:

BlackestOfMages
2011-05-28, 01:09 PM
By virtue of mechanics(race and deity stuff), my character in a game HAS to be evil. I don't have a real problem with this, but it's how my character interacts with the party that I'm unsure of.

This campaign is actually being rebooted because the party derped too bad, so I know the basic premise: Some person was more or less turned into an omnipresent and extra powerful entity, and we have to stop him (either by killing or returning him to his previous state). The party is in no condition to do this yet though(the reboot happened because the BBEG kind of nuked the world in a way).

So, regardless of alignment, my character has an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality, but past that I don't know what do to. How can I best mesh with the party?

Also, I'm looking for any suggestions on potential backstories. The character is basically a "fairy magic user", but obviously worships a evil, if sealed, entity. I don't need anything elaborate, but just a small base would be nice.

Thanks.

as stated, it'd be best to play lawful evil, over the others, as they''re the most likely to help heroes (in fact, they can mesh quite well even without the 'enemy of my enemy' thingy)

the best way to not cause problems is a case of give and take. Do the other players know your character is evil? I'm guessing so, and if this is the case then that's easy. you agree not to fudge up/occassionally support their 'good deeds', and they agree not to interupt your 'evil' deeds, so long as you don't go over the top with them.:smallbiggrin:

but doing something that the other characters will kill you for, and your PC knows they will kill them for, is a big no-no. self-preservation (genneraly) comes before impulse.

WitchSlayer
2011-05-28, 03:43 PM
But by far the easiest way of playing an evil character in a good party without pissing everyone off or ruining their fun is... to not do it.

dsmiles
2011-05-28, 03:45 PM
But by far the easiest way of playing an evil character in a good party without pissing everyone off or ruining their fun is... to not do it.That seems...counterproductive...to the entire premise of the thread. :smallconfused:

WitchSlayer
2011-05-28, 03:46 PM
That seems...counterproductive...to the entire premise of the thread. :smallconfused:

But it is a good suggestion!

dsmiles
2011-05-28, 03:51 PM
Debatable. (Of course this is coming from the guy who almost never plays a 'good' aligned character, and very rarely plays a 'neutral' aligned character. :smallamused:)

oxybe
2011-05-28, 03:56 PM
Debatable. (Of course this is coming from the guy who almost never plays a 'good' aligned character, and very rarely plays a 'neutral' aligned character. :smallamused:)

agreed. there's a certain... je ne sais quoi... a draw, if you will, to being evil.

which is why i'm totally happy our monday game is an evil one. being an insidious evil in a good party is one thing.

being a large ham in an evil party is a whole other.

then again, i'm playing a warforged sorceror who's got a delver's light on his forehead that makes him look like his head & shoulders are on fire & he's replaced his left arm with dagger-mounted flamethrower, so i'm a little biased.

Geigan
2011-05-28, 03:56 PM
Debatable. (Of course this is coming from the guy who almost never plays a 'good' aligned character, and very rarely plays a 'neutral' aligned character. :smallamused:)

I think he's saying not to not play evil, but don't play an evil character that's going to be a ****. It's actually pretty easy to not be a **** to your friends.

Dilb
2011-05-28, 05:42 PM
Do you really need ideas for why an evil person might want to save the world? That's like asking why an evil person might help put out a burning building that they live in.

You know what would be pretty evil? Play the entire campaign as though you're a self-sacrificing altruist, and reveal at the end that literally everything was an act in an attempt to steal the power for yourself, possibly so you can unseal the evil entity.

hamishspence
2011-05-29, 06:18 AM
You know what would be pretty evil? Play the entire campaign as though you're a self-sacrificing altruist, and reveal at the end that literally everything was an act in an attempt to steal the power for yourself, possibly so you can unseal the evil entity.

Or play an actual self-sacrificing altruist- who regularly "crosses the line" in their treatment of enemies.

And when challenged over it, uses traditional "pay evil unto evil" language "Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent" and so on.

MickJay
2011-05-29, 06:48 AM
The way the alignments work in D&D, it's very, very easy to play an Evil character while keeping appearances of being Good than to do it the other way round. As Dilb pointed out, no matter how grand and seemingly good deeds an Evil character does, its the motivation behind them that counts. Examples: distribute a cartload of gold to peasants (to ruin the economy in an area and stir an uprising). Save the world from destruction (so that you can conquer it later). Build a temple to a Good deity (so you can infiltrate the now-grateful church more easily).

On the other hand, a Good character cannot just burn down an orphanage, even if one of the orphans is destined to become an oppressive tyrant; nor can he rob a village to get himself items necessary for a world-saving ritual, etc.

In short, you can be of any alignment and get away with doing only Good (and Neutral) deeds, as long as you can provide appropriate motivation for those deeds.

Necroticplague
2011-05-29, 09:04 AM
Just my two cents, for groups of different alignment to cooperate, their are three things you have to consider. In order of most to least cooperation neccesary, those three things are ends, means, and motives. You people should ideally have the same ends (or at least close enough). You can have the same ends, but a different means, or way of going about them. A few people think of this as the differentiater between good and evil, but it is not. A lawfull good and chaotic evil character can both have the same ends (wanting to destroy world-eating menace), and use the same means (rally the people, gather an army, fight the forces of evil), but the main difference of alignments is the reason. The paladin might chose to save the world out of a sense of honor, and because he is one of the few people who can do it, while the Chaotic Evil Warblade might want to simply stop him out of a form of jealousy ("No way in heck I'm letting anything out their be bigger and badder than me"). With this in mind, I never view drastic discrepencies in alignments in parties as an issue, since they can cooperate perfectly, simply for different reasons.

hamishspence
2011-05-29, 09:19 AM
Motive being the distinguisher is probably more common than means.

Still,, sometimes its means rather than motive (when the character is a "the ends justify the means" sort of character, and is sufficiently extremist.)

It's rare to find a character who is evil with the motive "protect other people" rather than a more self-centred motive- but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

randomhero00
2011-05-29, 03:15 PM
Realistically you play evil characters mostly like good characters. After all, its not like IRL serial killers go around acting evil. No they blend in. So would most evil characters.

Zain
2011-05-29, 03:57 PM
Another opinion would be to try and play it as a extremist, thinking he's acting for the greater good, but uses evil methods, not unlike some Inquisitors in Warhammer 40K

Serpentine
2011-05-30, 12:38 AM
I've had a few more ideas on how you could play an Evil character in a Good(ish) party. They're not mutually exclusive, and can be fitted with all sorts of stuff.

- The Dark Vigilante: Imagine if Batman walked into Arkham Asylum and burned it to the ground. Imagine if all those various heroes, upon being told "don't do it! You'll become just like them! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfYouKillHimYouWillBeJustLikeHim)" said "what? That's retarded. He's tried to kill me a dozen times already. You think he won't do it again?" *slits throat*
This character is happy to gaze into the abyss: when the abyss gazes back, it's right where they want it - within stabbing distance. They're realistic and pragmatic, and find ideas like mercy and forgiveness both silly and dangerous. They will almost always argue for the killing of prisoners, unless they can be useful in some way, if doing so would cause more problems, and/or they can be comprehensively neutralised some other way. They're likely to get frustrated with what they see to be their party's wanton naivette, but assuming they're on good terms with them should generally limit it to later "I told you so"s, chasing down the enemy alone and in secret, or - if they're on really good terms - doing now and apologising later. See: Dexter.

- The Reluctant Villain: This character is Evil, but doesn't want to be. Something happened to make him this way. In this thread's case, perhaps the Evil deity got his claws into him without his consent - or maybe at the time it was voluntary, but now he's changed his mind. But the evil has seeped into his very soul, it drives him to do terrible things, terrible things he enjoys and it kills him inside. He's grasping at the last tendrils of his human(oid)ity. His friends are watching him fall, near helpless to do anything. Sometimes he gets a hold on himself for a while, and it seems there's hope, but something always comes up, something always makes him let go again.
The rest of his party might know everything that's happening (or think they do), and are striving to help him come to the light. They might try to cover his indescretions up, or look the other way - at the very least there may be a "where were you last night? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlezr3xhsox)" on a pretty regular basis - and all the while trying not to be dragged down with him.
This one will probably require a fair bit of negotiation and backstorying with the party. See: Mitchell from Being Human.

- The Protector: This character has seen the true face of the world, and it is not pretty. He is misanthropic and bitter, and believes he knows the truth about life: it sucks, everyone's out for themselves, nothing matters, and then you die - often painfully, and slowly. He hates the world and everything in it, and would like nothing more than to see it burn. He is just another shadow in an infinitely dark place.
And yet, there is a glimmer of light... A person (or persons?) of innocence and goodness so pure that it touches even his hard heart. He should look upon this person with nothing but contempt and perhaps pity, and yet he doesn't. Instead, he has nothing but love for them, a burning desire to see that innocence stay pure and untainted, maybe even a touch of jealousy for their blissful ignorance.
He will do everything he can to ensure that the darkness he sees in the world stays pushed back from the innocent, and hates, above all things, anything that would hurt them. He spots a seedy looking man in a tavern eyeing off the sweet little half-elf girl, and he's in the alley with a slit throat before she's even aware he exists. A pompous corrupt official makes her life difficult, well, you don't want to be him in a few hours. And heaven preserve the soul of anyone who dares to make her cry.
It's not just the darkness of the world he needs to protect her from, but his own. So he smiles and he laughs and he pretends everything is okay, and he exacts his protective vengence well away from her sight. But you can't hide something like that forever...
This is possibly my favourite, but again it'll require a lot of backstorying with other characters. A younger sibling, or perhaps a lover, could go very well with this. See: maybe Lalouch and his sister from Code Geass.

Ravens_cry
2011-05-30, 12:57 AM
TV Tropes has a plethora of tropes and examples of ways to play this.
Another way to play it besides pragmatic evil is as a fantasy "to catch a thief". Maybe you are a minor villain whose "sentence" is to help the heroes. Think Dr. Smith in the film version of Lost in Space. Not exactly realistic, but if you want to play a schemey, card carrying villain in a good party, it is one way to do so.
Still another way to to claim to be all pragmatic and 'realistic' but are really just a petty jerk with delusions of cynicism. Think Uncle Andrew from The Magician's Nephew.

dsmiles
2011-05-30, 09:23 AM
I've had a few more ideas on how you could play an Evil character in a Good(ish) party. They're not mutually exclusive, and can be fitted with all sorts of stuff.

- The Dark Vigilante: I so want to play this concept now. That's awesome.


- The Protector: I've done this, though he started off as LN (with LE tendancies), by the end of the second 'adventure' (5 sessions) he was firmly seated in the LE camp, warming his cocoa by their fire and eating their cookies.

Join the Dark Side. We have cookies and cocoa!

Serpentine
2011-05-30, 09:27 AM
Who was he protecting? Was it a fellow PC? If so, how did you work it out with the player?

dsmiles
2011-05-30, 09:36 AM
This was way back. The player knew about me protecting his character, a very young (by young, I mean the character was at the minimum age for a human...15?) and naive sorcerer, and also my character's cousin. We had discussed it before hand (the DM required a connection to at least two other characters). However, the character didn't find out until after my character died protecting him. It was a touching moment overall, as the rest of the party knew what happened, and had to explain it to the character.

Serpentine
2011-05-30, 09:37 AM
Cool. Glad to hear it can work.

dsmiles
2011-05-30, 09:56 AM
It was fun while it lasted, 2 in-game years. At the end, the death of my character shattered the (figurative) glass dome the sorcerer had been living. He snapped, and turned from NG to NE in one fell swoop.

Whybird
2011-05-30, 11:39 AM
Having done this once or twice myself now (well, okay, it's been evil characters in a mixed party, and it's not been D&D, but I think it still applies) the bits that made it work for me were that my character was smart enough to know that out-and-out evil would get him hunted down and killed, wheras an insidious "stay with them because we have a common enemy, and show them how weak the path of Good is while I'm at it" would let him stick around. I think it also helped that the other members of the party were willing to be pragmatic about it: if there's a Lawful Shouty paladin-type, it might be worth having a chat with the player OC about it and making sure that they're willing to take the position of "He's evil, but I can be a good influence on him" rather than "I should kill him right now".

The suggestion of Lawful Evil -- specifically, if your character has a reputation for always keeping his word once he gives it -- is an excellent one, because it means that even if your party don't like you, they know you can trust you. (It also gives "I give you my word, I will hunt you down and kill you" that much more gravitas.)

pendell
2011-05-30, 11:57 AM
So many good suggestions ... but maybe I can contribute a little as well.

1) Boba Fett.
Imagine Boba Fett was hired by the party to do a job. He's not nice but he will get the job he was paid to do done for the duration of his contract.

That's a lawful evil paradigm, and can work well.

2) Pre-Emperor Palpatine.
Your character knows he's evil -- does the rest of the party need to know as well? I doubt your character just waltzes down the street in major cities shouting "I'm evil and I love it!" Presumably there's an element of masquerade that keeps him/her from being lynched on the spot by any authorities that cross his path. This is taking the masquerade one step further, concealing evil behind a fair cloak and a smiling mask from the party as well as from outsiders. Presumably you'll need a lead sheet or other magic to spoof alignment detection.

Ya think about it, that's exactly what Belkar is doing in the current strips. He can't show his true colors without being killed by the party, so he wears hypocrisy like a cloak, and it keeps him alive.

3) Jabba the Hutt.
He's a greedy merchant and crime lord. Do the jobs you contract for him, pay your bills on time, he can be your best friend, giving you access to equipment and better jobs and intel.

4) Tarquin.
While we don't know how the strip ends it's possible Tarquin will wind up a de facto party ally. After all, they share common goals. Neither wants to see the world destroyed by the snarl.

An evil person seeks their own goals regardless of the damage it does to others. Good people seek goals for the good of others, at great cost to themselves.

There's no reason why , if an evil character works at it, the common party goals can overlap sufficiently to allow the evil character to profit by it. Indeed, if the good characters are gung-ho to lay down their lives for the greater good, the evil character may be perfectly willing to help them do so -- then pick up the pieces when all is said and done.

In this structure, there's a good chance the evil character will be the only true "winner " in the campaign.

Good luck!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Just_Ice
2011-05-30, 12:44 PM
The good party members are your friends. Sure, your safety might come before theirs, but you still want to be liked (or at least tolerated) by your group, and you should act accordingly, somewhat. When you do evil for either your own gain or their gain, you generally try to keep it on the downlow. Their goodie-goodie act and caring about other things can get grating at times, but not grating enough to attack any of them, generally.

Use neutral evil and generally suggest killing or the evil choice when it's especially appropriate or viable, but don't make it clear that you're truly malevolent. To them, it's useful that you CAN think like the enemy, not that you ARE like the enemy.

paddyfool
2011-05-30, 01:22 PM
Also, I'm looking for any suggestions on potential backstories. The character is basically a "fairy magic user", but obviously worships a evil, if sealed, entity. I don't need anything elaborate, but just a small base would be nice.

Question 1: Do you want the other party members to know that you worship an evil deity?

If yes, try this:

Ally of convenience: There's no profit in the end of the world or its BBEG for you or your patron. You make this blatantly obvious to all the rest of the party, and insist on effective methods to achieve the end of the BBEG of whatever flavour.

Or this:

Friends first, screw the rest: If it is clear and known to all the party that you maintain their interests, or the interests of some or all of their members, to be paramount, they may tolerate your presence, or even be impressed by your self-sacrificing actions on their behalf.

If no, try this:

Any flavour of scheming mastermind and/or manipulative charismatic bastard.

Quiet and grimly obsessed type (see "blaster" below; although it doesn't necessitate it, it does fit it quite well).

Question 2: What flavour of spellcasting do you want?

Blaster: Maybe your motive is simple and direct power. You struck a deal with a dark deity for it, you revel in its use... and you hate that somewhere out there, there's someone more powerful still than you. Your hatred for the BBEG may be obvious to the other party members, but perhaps you keep your reasons to yourself, and you let them imagine its for some personal injury or other.

Alternatively, maybe the motivation is revenge, or a very brutal form of justice. You still want to see the BBEG (and maybe other people who breach your personal code of ethics) burn, just for different reasons.

Buffer/battlefield shaper/summoner: power still works, except maybe rather than "you want to see the BBEG burn", insert "you want to see them kneel". Or, to try another tack: you like to manipulate the situation to put people in your debt. Time and again, you've saved the party... and they know it. You've done a lot to help other people too, and they know it too. The ultimate achievement that you can see to increase your fame and prestige is to bring down the BBEG, although you're happy to perform other praiseworthy deeds along the way. And the fact that even a god may owe you a great deal at some point is something you fully intend to exploit, down the line. Your rep is all important, and you'll do nothing to risk it. Where does the real evil come in? Perhaps you respond very badly to personal slights. Perhaps you're simply utterly ruthless in getting the job done. Or perhaps you're simply highly exploitative.

lerg2
2011-06-02, 06:32 AM
, a lot of them might qualify for evil themselves, depending on the beholder.


I'm sorry, but this was so funny to me 4 hours ago I came back and posted here. I'm playing a NE person in a CG/LG party. I talked to the DM and this is what we put together: My backstory is completely hidden from the other players. The only spot in which it even interacts with the other players is when we met. Now fast forward, our party has been adventuring for 1 1/2 years. BAM! Unexpected Plot hook you know nothing about! This is where my guy's motives and what caused him to be evil is revealed and they just....stare. "Wow, I really didn't anticipate that." and everything. It was HILARIOUS. They fixed everything in my backstory to turn me to neutral. Then we got in trouble a lot. A word to the wise; Never go assassinate someone in a place you are likely to go with the party, who WILL announce you as an assassin. We got in lots of trouble. I'm banned from ever setting foot in Valenar ever again. If I do, they'll redo the Last War so I can see. REALLY closely. In short, being evil like Jayne is fun!

kyoryu
2011-06-04, 01:14 PM
Another good evil trope is the well-intentioned extremist.

Your motive is pure and innocent and sunlight and puppies. What you'll do to accomplish it, however, is not.

These characters can also be a ton of fun because they often believe that they're good, as the ends justify the means. They also get along in parties as their evil is more frequently dished out on bad guys.

Jay R
2011-06-04, 03:25 PM
First of all, don't be evil towards your party members. They're your friends, remember?
No, that's the good character's motivation. Yours is "Don't be evil towards your party members. They are around you when you sleep."


Second, when demanded to stop by them, stop. They are your friends, remember?
Second verse. That's the wrong reason. When demanded to stop by them, stop. They outnumber you, and you need them.


Fifth, if other party members call you out, act horrified. Say it's all an misunderstanding. Promise to behave yourself, even if you have no intention to. Act hurt, and try to mollify them. After all, you are their friend too...
Excellent. Exactly correct actions and words. After all, you want them to believe that you are their friend too...

dsmiles
2011-06-04, 03:30 PM
No, that's the good character's motivation. Yours is "Don't be evil towards your party members. They are around you when you sleep."


Second verse. That's the wrong reason. When demanded to stop by them, stop. They outnumber you, and you need them.


Excellent. Exactly correct actions and words. After all, you want them to believe that you are their friend too...

Not necessarily. Evil-aligned people can have friends and loved ones, too. There's no reason they can't be friends with (or related to) good-aligned people.

Tvtyrant
2011-06-04, 03:36 PM
Or play an actual self-sacrificing altruist- who regularly "crosses the line" in their treatment of enemies.

And when challenged over it, uses traditional "pay evil unto evil" language "Pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent" and so on.

Hilariously used as an example of the "good guys" in the Sword of Truth series. By the kindly old man even; I wonder if Goodkind realized that his characters had become abominations by the end of the book series.

Jay R
2011-06-05, 09:01 AM
Not necessarily. Evil-aligned people can have friends and loved ones, too. There's no reason they can't be friends with (or related to) good-aligned people.

True, but the question was to find a way to role-play the evil character in a good party. My suggestion uses his alignment, rather than carefully avoiding it.

Serpentine
2011-06-05, 09:13 AM
True, but the question was to find a way to role-play the evil character in a good party. My suggestion uses his alignment, rather than carefully avoiding it.Giving your Evil character friends and the ability to genuinely care for people is not "carefully avoiding" their alignment. It's just a different way of playing it.
And personally, I find it much more believable a character becoming Evil in large part because of his strong feelings for someone, than an Evil character not giving a damn about anyone but himself.

Ramza1987
2011-06-05, 03:06 PM
Just look at one of the most famous characters in movies Anakin Skywalker A.k.a Darth Vader; he was VERY good, but slowly turned evil and did evil things, because he tought he was doing the best course of action, to save his girlfriend/unborn child, and he even was very sad, when Palpatine told him Amidala was dead.

Maybe is not the best example, but i think, it is a good one.

Grendus
2011-06-05, 09:20 PM
If you want to go the chaotic evil route, you can always be a Jayne - you're adventuring with the party because they give you an even split (not some measly 7%) and your own room. They bought your loyalty. You're still evil, you'll still screw them over if someone offers you enough, but that loyalty has a value - 5000gp right now is nice, but a 20% cut of the party's profits and four powerful allies watching your back is more valuable. You aren't stupid... 50,000gp in a bag of holding and a scroll of teleport and we'll talk.

pendell
2011-06-06, 04:40 PM
If you want to go the chaotic evil route, you can always be a Jayne - you're adventuring with the party because they give you an even split (not some measly 7%) and your own room. They bought your loyalty. You're still evil, you'll still screw them over if someone offers you enough, but that loyalty has a value - 5000gp right now is nice, but a 20% cut of the party's profits and four powerful allies watching your back is more valuable. You aren't stupid... 50,000gp in a bag of holding and a scroll of teleport and we'll talk.


Just be very careful playing Jayne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjgGWOpksEw). Odds are pretty good your party members take a dim view of it.

I advise that if you do evil, try to do it in such a way that it doesn't come back to haunt you. Being evil doesn't have to mean being stupid.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tvtyrant
2011-06-06, 04:45 PM
Giving your Evil character friends and the ability to genuinely care for people is not "carefully avoiding" their alignment. It's just a different way of playing it.
And personally, I find it much more believable a character becoming Evil in large part because of his strong feelings for someone, than an Evil character not giving a damn about anyone but himself.

Which is more a neutral trait anyways. As stated in The Light Fantastic: "Demons will torture your soul, but only because they value souls so very highly."

MickJay
2011-06-06, 07:29 PM
Hilariously used as an example of the "good guys" in the Sword of Truth series. By the kindly old man even; I wonder if Goodkind realized that his characters had become abominations by the end of the book series.

Probably not, considering how many of his secondary and tertiary antagonistic characters were caricatures already halfway through the series. First Rule was okay though. :smalltongue:

I agree with what others said, playing a character with realistic motivations and not kicking puppies just because they're there is hardly avoiding playing an alignment.

All in all, alignment is a result of actions, not the other way round. It's something that is inherently mutable. Play your character in whatever way you feel is appropriate to the situation, and the alignment will eventually get adjusted. Forcing oneself to consistently play a specific alignment regardless of circumstances may be an interesting challenge, but personally, I'd find that too stifling.

TriForce
2011-06-06, 10:21 PM
i played a evil character in a good campaign for a while. a neutral evil sorcerer in a group with among others,a lawful good samurai.
my whole stance on being evil isnt so much that you want to crush and destroy every other living and unliving being, my char actually had the same normal goals as the rest of the party, save the world, and gain wealth, fame and power while doing so. these things are not alignment dependable, and my char really appreciated his companions all the way. the major difference was in what my char was willing to do to protect his allies/the group. for a example, me and another character went inside a shop for some basic supplies. the shopkeeper, being a bit annoying, started to flirt with my companion and basically harrassed her after my char left the shop early. upon hearng this, my char went inside to "talk with the shopkeeper" returning a mere 5 minutes later with the supplies we needed and the assurance that the shopkeeper apologized. a descent bluff check later, the party was on their way, and they never found the corpse :P in the end, it turned into a running gag, where i would do horrible horrible acts in order to help the party, but all out of their sight, without them noticing, and me bluffing that everything is fine.

basically, a evil char is a fun aditon to a party, just remember your a addition, and not a opponent. respect their opinions, and ignore them when needed. above all else, only do stuff you can get away with. evil really can have good goals, be a great friend, and a loyal and trustworthy companion. however, they are also ruthless, unforgiving and violent whenever they feel the need for it

Ramza1987
2011-06-07, 12:17 AM
I like that aproach.

I think that you can be evil, and still work in group, and not being disruptive, and like a few said, being evil isn't being open about you evil deeds, being evil is just... well being evil :smallbiggrin:

"Evilness" has a lot of aspects, murder, selfishness, rape, blackmail, torture, mercilessness, treason (maybe).. just, play some of those, or another, that can be done without, ruining the game for the rest.

Hallack
2011-06-07, 10:27 AM
Yep, being evil doesn't mean you have to be a force of demonic destruction that is always screwing over or taking advantage of the party.

The character's Motivation I think is key to playing an evil character in a good party.

If people are not running around Detecting Evil an evil character can literally be played through a whole campaign without the other players really even thinking of them as evil.

For example, a year or so back I was in a game playing a Lawful Evil Beguiler. He was witty and charming, very helpful to the point that most would probably think he was a "good guy". He did a great deal of "good". Thing is he did it for his own less than good reasons. It was about manipulation, control, and angling for advantage. He understood he could get more by playing nice than by being public enemy #1.

There certainly were times when his "evil" showed up such as when he charmed and enemy gained the info he needed and then slit her throat without a care. Leaving her alive was too much of a risk. But he did it in such a way that the more squeamish party members were not there for the ruthless efficiency of the final act.

You see, he viewed his companions and others as tools and assets. They were to be used and leveraged to his advantage. Often that even came out in game as him giving them or helping them get the better loot, going out of his way to aid them in being better. Afterall, it was an investment on his part that should pay dividends.

This particular character even developed genuine care for those in his party. That is not to say he wouldn't let them die for himself or if necessary spend their lives for greater gain. But he was not going to waste them.

Bottom line is Who Is Your Character? Why is he Evil? In what way is he Evil? Is that Evil obvious or is it more subtle even to the point of being mistaken as being 'good'?

My DM even forgot that my character was Evil and cast spells on me that would not affect me at one time hehe.

The Life and Art of Beguiling (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6938.0) Diary of this character and his adventures

boomwolf
2011-06-07, 03:53 PM
Well, the best way to pull of "Evil in a Good party: as far as I believe, (and I pulled it off with a Drow, no less, and half the team were elves.)

Make sure everybody knows just who you are and what you stand for. be evil, but "Acceptable Evil", as in-the opponents are worse then he is. he might not be friendly, good-intention or trustworthy, but he is efficient and willing to cooperate to mutual ends.

Analytica
2011-06-07, 08:43 PM
Technically, here it is possible to explore the flip side of the alignment debate.

There are plenty of things that are Evil in D&D, at least under some interpretations, that you might not consider evil. In most cases, these are evil things done as a last resort, or for a good purpose. Under many interpretations, these are still evil, the paladin falls, and so forth. If doing those things when you feel they are necessary still makes you Evil, it stands to reason that you can be Evil without carrying a card or some form of personality disorder.

Consider someone who wants all the same goals as a Good character. Protect the innocents and the world. If this never requires an Evil act, no problem. But if a situation comes up when evil is necessary, this character does whatever they feel is required, and does not regret the choice. If the villain carries a baby armor, they still strike. If more lives are saved by assassination, they do it. If use of poison, torture, undead, demon summonings, whatever, is the most certain path to a Good end state, they take that path, and at least to themselves, make no excuses, seek no atonement, and would do the same again if required. This character could be Evil in the sense that they are not beholden to Good or Neutral means, but in some campaigns, might never actually commit an Evil act or come across as Evil, except to the karma meter of spells and Paladin abilities.

The character might still be nice, generous, honest and amicable. They just never feel bad about doing what they believe to be the best course of action.

This is how I would play something like a good or neutral wizard turned into a lich. They still want the same things and behave mostly the same way. Now, however, they are Always Evil. It gets harder to feel remorse, so though they might try to emulate those emotions, their actions when pushed is more likely to be Evil. Perhaps keep a morality pet around to try to anchor yourself to the morality that no longer comes naturally?

Come to think of it, Vampire kind of does this. All vampires are Evil, but many try to emulate morality/Humanity as best they can.

Serpentine
2011-06-07, 10:52 PM
Having just watched XMen: First Class last night, I think Magneto and Professor X make a pretty good example of Good and Evil working together (on the rare occasion they do, or the hypothetical situation where they could), for the same cause with different opinions on what exactly that cause is and how to obtain it. Characters in D&D don't know that they're Evil. The Evil character might know that he has a very different world-view, different methods, a different morality to his companions, but he doesn't think "I'm Evil mwahaha!" He just argues for his position, that his methods are the best or most useful in this situation, and so on. Maybe eventually they'll fall, maybe eventually he'll be raised up, maybe eventually there will be so much conflict a split will have to happen. But not necessarily - they're just different.
Having players that are very good at distinguishing between in-game and out-of-game knowledge would probably be essential for this option, though.

dsmiles
2011-06-07, 10:57 PM
Having just watched XMen: First Class last night, I think Magneto and Professor X make a pretty good example of Good and Evil working together (on the rare occasion they do, or the hypothetical situation where they could), for the same cause with different opinions on what exactly that cause is and how to obtain it. Characters in D&D don't know that they're Evil. The Evil character might know that he has a very different world-view, different methods, a different morality to his companions, but he doesn't think "I'm Evil mwahaha!" He just argues for his position, that his methods are the best or most useful in this situation, and so on. Maybe eventually they'll fall, maybe eventually he'll be raised up, maybe eventually there will be so much conflict a split will have to happen. But not necessarily - they're just different.
Having players that are very good at distinguishing between in-game and out-of-game knowledge would probably be essential for this option, though.GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!! :smalltongue:
No, really. Get out. I just watched it last night, too, and, as I was watching, was thinking about this thread.

Serpentine
2011-06-07, 11:00 PM
Heheh. It really works, doesn't it?
Hell, it probably wouldn't take too much to get an Evil version of, say, Wolverine (personality and ideology-wise) that still works with the group.

dsmiles
2011-06-07, 11:03 PM
Heheh. It really works, doesn't it?
Hell, it probably wouldn't take too much to get an Evil version of, say, Wolverine (personality and ideology-wise) that still works with the group.You mean like Sabretooth when they did the Age of Apocalypse storyline? I'd still call him evil during that storyline (bordering on neutral, but still evil).

Serpentine
2011-06-07, 11:10 PM
Is that the one with the premise of "what if Professor X died young and Magneto ran the X-Men"? I'm not even sure whether I read all that... Anyway, sure, why not.

dsmiles
2011-06-07, 11:12 PM
Is that the one with the premise of "what if Professor X died young and Magneto ran the X-Men"? I'm not even sure whether I read all that... Anyway, sure, why not.That'd be the one. I have two of the compliations. X-Men and Weapon X. I think there's two more, but I don't have them.

Serpentine
2011-06-07, 11:14 PM
I want to read XMen now... I only have a compilation book of... something, not sure which (Ultimate?), and I used to have some of Nightcrawler's serial but I lost it or something :smallfrown: