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Keeper of Starlight
2011-05-28, 01:27 AM
So, I've been taking a look at and trying to figure out the system for learning languages in D&D of late, and ... well, wow. That's some pretty crazy $h!t. As it works at the moment, a character starts with one or two languages in addition to a number of languages equal to their Intelligence score. This works just fine, in my opinion; however, in order to gain a new language, a player spends two skill points, and that language is automatically learned. I mean, really?
And so we get to my way of fixing this. In realistic terms, no character should be able to just learn a language at some point with no practice, so there has to be a bit of a method behind this. A person who wants to learn a language needs a few things:
1. A mentor (or RosettaStone).
2. A reason to learn.
3. Time. Lots of time.

Number 1 is the easiest to take care of. If no one who tends to travel with you knows a language that you are trying to learn, you can't be taught it. For those that do, they will have to attempt a Profession (Mentorship) Check, with a DC dependent upon the difficulty of the language. If they succeed at the check, then during that day, week, or month of teaching, they make a large amount of progress. If they fail by 4 or less, they make 1/4 progress, and if they fail by 5 or more, they make no progress during that time period whatsoever. This makes the learners dependent upon someone who knows the language, which is more realistic, as evidenced by my former Spanish teacher (I remember no Spanish).
DC Checks will be largely based on the DM's world, and the commonness of that language (if you hear it often, it's easier to learn), but as a basis, languages such as Elven would often have a DC of 12 to 15, while Draconic or Celestial would be around 25 to 30.


With that part done, we can move to part 2: a reason to learn. This is very simple. Just tell everyone why you want to learn. Are you guys wanting a somewhat secret language so outsiders don't understand you, or does your new girlfriend speak only a little Common, and you want to learn to talk to her in Swedish?


And finally, we have the third section, time. The average time for someone to learn a language is probably a minimum of two years, and that is with around an hour and a half of practice a day. However, we can assume that this timeline involves a few bad days or weeks of teaching that put you behind schedule. So with that in mind, a year and a half of successful DC checks should be enough to teach someone a language, or, with constant unsuccessful checks that aren't below 5 of the DC, six years.
Before making the check, a player should decide the interval of time they are making the check for: one day, one week, or one month. The check determines the total progress for that amount of time, and so if they fail it by 5 or more, they have to wait for the time to elapse before trying again.


Well, those are my thoughts on the matter. Please let me know what you think of the concept.

Kellus
2011-05-28, 01:33 AM
Languages are tricky to fix in D&D, because you almost always end up losing in the long run. Making language rules more complicated is pretty much always more trouble than it's worth. Having characters take a year and a half to learn how to speak a new language doesn't add anything to the game.

Sometimes verisimilitude should be sacrificed for an enhanced game. More complicated is not always better.

Jeraa
2011-05-28, 01:40 AM
In realistic terms, no character should be able to just learn a language at some point with no practice, so there has to be a bit of a method behind this.

The same can be said for any other skill, feat, class, or ability. The game does assume you are practicing - it is only when you can actually put a rank in the skill/gain the feat/level up that that practice actually pays off.

So, if you want to be more realistic, just have the players state what they are practicing. Then the next time they level up, they can select that skill/feat/class or whatever.

Yeah, putting a skill point or two into a language to learn it totally may be somewhat unrealistic, but it is a whole lot easier than the method you posted. And considering the ease of getting magical aid (like a ring or amulet of Comprehend Languages. Only costs 3000 gold, which is nothing at all unless you are low level), complex rules for languages arn't needed.

(This is only an example, but the time required for things in the game is kind of messed up anyway. Did you know, it is entirely possible, using the rules, for a character to get to 20th level in less than 3 in-game months? 13.3 encounters per level, at 4 encounters per day means 4 days per level. 4 days per level per 20 levels is 80 days. Well, the actual math puts it at 63.3 days, or a little over 2 months. But add on a bit of down time, and we get 90 days or 3 months. Congratulations. Your elf wizard spent decades getting to first level, and a few months more getting to 20th. So if you really are worried about things taking a realistic amount of time... don't. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to fix it all.)

Falin
2011-05-28, 01:48 AM
Honestly, languages don't need to be difficult to learn. First of all you've got to remember that PCs are ALLOT smarter than normal people 10 is the advrage for a PC not a human (or any other race of advrage intelegence) so by D&D standards we all have negitive modifiers to our in which means the trouble we have learning a language is not the trouble a PC will have learning a language. Add to that the fact that languages are almost entirely useless, and, as was already mentioned, getting spells or items that just let you speak whatever language you want isn't even hard you really don't need to sweat just speneding skill pointsto learn a language.

As an aside, what edition are you using? because in 3.x at leas you only have to spend one point to learn a language unless you were illiterate (so a barbarian and, pretty much, nothing else).

EDIT: sorry I misrememberd my book, 12-13 is advrage for a PC which still makes them alot better than an advrage joe.

Jeraa
2011-05-28, 01:53 AM
First of all you've got to remember that PCs are ALLOT smarter than normal people 10 is the advrage for a PC not a human (or any other race of advrage intelegence) so by D&D standards we all have negitive modifiers to our in which means the trouble we have learning a language is not the trouble a PC will have learning a language.

The book disagrees with that. Page 7, under Ability Scores:


The average ability score for a typical commoner is 10 or 11, but your character is not typical. The most common ability scores for player characters (PCs) are 12 and 13.

And you do need to spend 2 skill point if Speak Language is a cross class skill - as it is for most classes (all but bard have it as cross class.)

Falin
2011-05-28, 01:56 AM
Really, that's kind of weird, so that means a barbarian has to spend 3 points to learn a skill that they will never really use?

Also I know, I said that in my edit.

Jeraa
2011-05-28, 02:05 AM
Really, that's kind of weird, so that means a barbarian has to spend 3 points to learn a skill that they will never really use?

Also I know, I said that in my edit.

The barbarian has to spend 2 skill points to gain a rank in Speak Language to learn a new language, same as everyone else (except the bard, who only has to spend 1). The difference is, the barbarian can't read/write that language because he is illiterate.

He could choose to spend another 2 skill points (note he doesn't spend them on any skill - he just spends the skill point on becoming literate) to become literate, learning the ability to read/write in any language he can speak. But that is only a one time purchase - it works for all languages a barbarian can speak. (Note I remove the barbarians illiteracy in my games. Maybe if it actually helped the barbarian by making him immune/resistant to spells like the various symbols, but it doesn't. And requiring him to spend 2 of his skill points just to do something every other character can already do just seems unfair.)

Falin
2011-05-28, 02:12 AM
That's true. Though when I think about it, it seems odd to make some classes and not others... other pay more for something really anyone CAN do. Most skills are for things that are really hard. But for normal people learning a language is just allot of busy work and pratice. As opposed to disarming that falling ceiling trap, or knowing if it's blessed silver or cold iron that hurts pitfeinds.

deuxhero
2011-05-29, 11:18 PM
Learning languages the hardway is of minimal benifit with Tounges and Know Languages so easy to get. The cost is appropriate for the effectiveness.

ONLY if you are making a low magic campaign (which is not a strong suit for base D&D 3.5) AND making languages part of the campagin should you bother changing the rules.