Help making a Paladin

[danzibr]

Pretty soon my wife and I will be playing in a campaign together. I'm going Hellbred Warblade and she's going Goliath Paladin. Initially we were both going to be Goliaths to be an item but I didn't want to end up as Warblade 19 (we're starting at ECL 2).

I have my Warblade entirely planned out, but to be honest I don't know much about Paladins. She wants to be a righteous butt-kicker type and utilize her mount.

So far I'm thinking Paladin/Fist of Raziel with Power Attack, the feat that combines Power Attack and smiting, and the feat that makes casting a swift (I think) action, but that's all I have. Any suggestions?

Also, anyone know how to get a cooler mount?

[Vent Reynolt]

If your wife wants to utilize the Special Mount class feature, then Fist of Raziel is not the ideal choice since it does not advance the special mount. Fist of Raziel can still work for mounted combat, but she will need to obtain the mount as a cohort through either Leadership or the Wild Cohort feat; otherwise, the mount will end up being far too fragile for higher level enemies.

As for classes that focus on utilizing the special mount, there is Cavalier (Complete Warrior), Ashworm Dragoon (Sandstorm), Wild Plains Outrider (Complete Adventurer, only 3 levels), and for completeness, the Halfling Outrider (Complete Warrior).

The DMG has rules for choosing a more powerful mount. My favorite is a Pegasus, but Griffons, Ashworms (needed for Ashworm Dragoon), and Dragonnels are also good choices. They all have the advantage of providing an additional method of movement.

[Tokuhara]

If your wife wants to utilize the Special Mount class feature, then Fist of Raziel is not the ideal choice since it does not advance the special mount. Fist of Raziel can still work for mounted combat, but she will need to obtain the mount as a cohort through either Leadership or the Wild Cohort feat; otherwise, the mount will end up being far too fragile for higher level enemies.

As for classes that focus on utilizing the special mount, there is Cavalier (Complete Warrior), Ashworm Dragoon (Sandstorm), Wild Plains Outrider (Complete Adventurer, only 3 levels), and for completeness, the Halfling Outrider (Complete Warrior).

The DMG has rules for choosing a more powerful mount. My favorite is a Pegasus, but Griffons, Ashworms (needed for Ashworm Dragoon), and Dragonnels are also good choices. They all have the advantage of providing an additional method of movement.

There's also Blessed of Valarian, which could work to give you a "Back-Up" Mount

[Zaq]

I don't suppose she'd be interested in a Crusader instead? They fulfill the "holy righteous butt-kicker" archetype a hell of a lot better, and if Warblade's already on the table, I can't imagine that Crusader wouldn't be. If she wants a horsey, you can use Wild Cohort, Leadership (YMMV, but I've met DMs who would never allow Leadership for a normal cohort who would absolutely allow it for a mount), or maybe a PrC like Ashworm Dragoon, as I believe has been mentioned.

Also, while it's only relevant for a while (unless your GM lets you upgrade it, which is often a fun quest and/or character aspect), the Clockwork Steed from MM4 only costs somewhere in the 2-3k range (depending on how many upgrades you get; ask for hydraulics and underglow), which is easily within your reach by the time a Pally would get a mount anyway. It's also hilarious to have a robot horsey.

[danzibr]

I don't suppose she'd be interested in a Crusader instead? They fulfill the "holy righteous butt-kicker" archetype a hell of a lot better, and if Warblade's already on the table, I can't imagine that Crusader wouldn't be. If she wants a horsey, you can use Wild Cohort, Leadership (YMMV, but I've met DMs who would never allow Leadership for a normal cohort who would absolutely allow it for a mount), or maybe a PrC like Ashworm Dragoon, as I believe has been mentioned.

Also, while it's only relevant for a while (unless your GM lets you upgrade it, which is often a fun quest and/or character aspect), the Clockwork Steed from MM4 only costs somewhere in the 2-3k range (depending on how many upgrades you get; ask for hydraulics and underglow), which is easily within your reach by the time a Pally would get a mount anyway. It's also hilarious to have a robot horsey.

I already ran Crusader by her and she's not interested. Also, as much as I love the Clockwork Steed (I would totally ask my DM to let it be my special mount were I her... especially the hydraulics and underglow) she wants a real horse. Well, not necessarily a horse, but something alive.

Vent Reynolt and Tokuhara, thanks for the suggestions. I'll totally look into them and run them by her.

And Zaq, in addition to what I wrote above, I loved your Truenamer guide thing.

[Talya]

Bardadin is the best way for a paladin to kick ass, really. Take a bit of two weapon fighting, snowflake wardance, power attack, divine might, max out charisma, and kick ass.

Goliath also has some nice bardic fluff to go with that (no special mechanical options, though.)

[danzibr]

Ahh she didn't like the bard idea. I did look into all the PrC's listed above but none advance spellcasting. Is there such a prestige class? One that advances special mount and casting?

I also wasn't aware of the info in the DMG around page 205. However, I don't see the table they're talking about (when it goes on about the column in the left blah blah...).

[Grim Reader]

For a standard Paladin, don't forget the feat that lets you cast Arcane spells -Star of the Arcane Order?

And have you considered Prestige Paladin? Maybe from a Ranger/Cleric base with Beastmaster? There was a feat that let you combine your companion and mount I think...

Edit: Actually, I don't think Bestmaster would be cumulative with prestige Paladin for companion/mount advancement even with the feat.

[Zaq]

I already ran Crusader by her and she's not interested. Also, as much as I love the Clockwork Steed (I would totally ask my DM to let it be my special mount were I her... especially the hydraulics and underglow) she wants a real horse. Well, not necessarily a horse, but something alive.

Vent Reynolt and Tokuhara, thanks for the suggestions. I'll totally look into them and run them by her.

And Zaq, in addition to what I wrote above, I loved your Truenamer guide thing.

Thanks, good to hear it. It's always nice to see my work recognized.

If you use Wild Cohort or Leadership to get a mount (in other words, if you're not reliant on class levels to make your mount keep getting better), Hellreaver is a fun holy warrior PrC. It's by no means limited to Paladins, but it's got great flavor and isn't that bad mechanically.

EDIT: Just saw that she wants a PrC that advances spellcasting. Offhand, I can't think of any classes that advance spellcasting, have full BAB, and advance a Paladin mount, though the various Pally-flavored PrCs from Complete Divine and Complete Warrior (Hospitaler, Knight Protector, Knight of the Chalice, Holy Liberator, whatever) really all blend together in my head, so there might be something that I'm just not thinking of.

I'd suggest RKV, but if she doesn't want to go Crusader, it wouldn't help.

I wonder if there's anything we can do to make straight Paladin interesting after level 5. They just really stop getting class features, which is death to a class without strong spellcasting (or meldshaping/initiating/whatever). Hmmm . . .

[Talya]

What about convincing her to go cleric/prestige paladin, maybe? The basic problem here is your warblade will make her paladin utterly irrelevant. The core paladin class is really lacking, short of exploiting feats like devoted performer to stack it with another class.

What was the sticking point on crusader? Lack of special mount? If so, show her the Wild Cohort feat (which is better than the paladin mount anyway.) Not enough Smite Evils? Extra Smiting + Crusader > Paladin smite.
(Also, by "Bardadin," You know i meant a bard/paladin multiclass, yes?)

[Zaq]

Hmmm. I just saw that you're starting at ECL 2, and if she's a goliath, it'll be ECL 6 at the earliest before she gets a Paladin mount. How fast do you level up? If she wants mounted combat, I think she'll really want to look into Wild Cohort, or perhaps good old-fashioned Handle Animal (much of which has to happen offscreen, so it's pretty reliant on your GM).

[danzibr]

Grim Reader, I can't find this Star of the Arcane Order. What book's it from?

Zaq, hmm, yeah, Wild Cohort looks good. I'll run it by her (she retired early tonight). Maybe with this she can give up her special mount with some class variant for nice bonuses, and this opens the door to Fist of Raziel. She really likes that PrC for some reason. Also, I looked into Hellreaver. I think it's cool, will run it by her. As for leveling up, it'll go very quickly in the beginning. Probably 1/few hour session for a little while.

Talya, I tried getting her to go Cleric/Pally before but she didn't like the idea. One campaign she played a Cleric and people were always asking her to waste her turn on healz. She doesn't want anything to do with Clerics now (even though I told her she doesn't have to do any healing). We're also going to be a very non-char op party. I'm going Hellbred for my Warblade, for example, in lieu of Dragonborn Water Orc. Another dude is going a race that gives him a penalty to his primary stat. It's the DM's first time. As for why she doesn't want to go Crusader... I tried explaining it to her, the stances and maneuvers and whatnot, but she's basically totally set on going Paladin. I mean, she says she's open to other things, but when I run something by her she still prefers Paladin. Also, I like your Vow of Nudity link. Oh, and I did know it'd be multi-class Bard/Pally, but she doesn't think of Bards up the holy butt-kickery aisle. Now that I think about it, pretty much everything in our party is chosen for flavor reasons.

EDIT: Could I use Wild Cohort to get a heavy horse then war train it?

[Talya]

EDIT: Could I use Wild Cohort to get a heavy horse then war train it?

Yes, you could, though it wouldn't gain the extra hit die for it.

If she's dead set on paladin (crusader with wild cohort would give her all the holy mounted combat she wants), you could try paladin of freedom, take wild cohort, exalted companion, and grab a unicorn or pegasus, too.

Alternately, take Leadership. A pegasus is an available cohort, and has a variable alignment. ("Usually Chaotic Good.") Nothing like a 120 foot flight speed on a mount. Make sure she's strong though, goliaths are HEAVY...heavier still in full plate.

[SamBurke]

A Hippogriff is a decent choice as a mount, and rather cheap compared to other types. Also, Dragonrider, Ranger, Druid, and several other classes would help a ton.

You might dip a bit into monk, too.

[wyrmsbane2]

I'm sure that this guy wouldn't mind if you used his paladin revamp, actually just tell him you are, he wants play-testers.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199354

its much better than the core class, just make sure the DM is okay with it. the spellcasting is much better, and the class doesn't get boring after 5 levels.

the mount choices in the DMG are a great way to go without taking any feats.

and don't forget to tell him you're using the paladin revamp, it is his invention! (an awesome one at that)

[Greenish]

Grim Reader, I can't find this Star of the Arcane Order. What book's it from?Sword of Arcane Order is from Champions of Valor.