Optimizing Nale

[Malanthyus]

Heya, assuming that Nale's set up roughly as people seem to think in the class and level geakery thread, (1+ Fighter,1+ Rogue, 6+ Sorceror) and taking into account that Elan got a prestige class, what would be a good choice of PRC for Nale to pick to try to counter Elan or get a bit more optimal?

*Edit, as stated in Class and Level geekery, these are minimum numbers that Nale would have to have taken in these classes given what's been observed in the comic, not a level by level breakdown of his current build.

[factotum]

:smallconfused: That selection of levels for Nale implies he's only level 8, but we know Elan is at least level 13--I seriously doubt Nale is lower level than Elan!

[Gift Jeraff]

The Class and Geekery Thread != canon.

That's just the absolute minimum level Nale can be given the evidence we have seen, assuming the comic follows the rules unless stated otherwise (which probably isn't always the case).

I'd say Nale definitely has multiple levels in fighter, seeing as how he was listed as "HIGHLY SKILLED WITH SWORD" two years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html).

[FujinAkari]

Once again, people seem to be forgetting that Prestige Classes are PRESTIGIOUS. Not everyone has them, and the assumption is and should be that people won't ever have them.

[Seerow]

Once again, people seem to be forgetting that Prestige Classes are PRESTIGIOUS. Not everyone has them, and the assumption is and should be that people won't ever have them.

On the other hand, Nale is all about the evil opposites thing. He knew as of their last encounter that Elan had gotten a prestige class, so it's reasonable to assume he would have gone out of his way to find a suitable opposite counterpart. One might even figure to be the opposite of Elan's homebrew/3rd party prestige class, Nale would look for an official one to take, making it more likely for someone here to guess it. (Though I'm not quite as sure on that part, and could easily see Nale with some custom class nobody's ever heard of before as readily as seeing him with something straight out of the book)

[FujinAkari]

On the other hand, Nale is all about the evil opposites thing.

Not anymore, back at the Battle of Azure City he said he was giving up on that.

[0Megabyte]

For someone giving up on the concept of evil opposites, Nale sure is failing hard at it!

[Seerow]

Not anymore, back at the Battle of Azure City he said he was giving up on that.

He may have said it, but looking at the party he regrouped... I'm not buying it. Maybe he's not going out of his way and getting gimped party members like that level 2 wizard to be an evil opposite (which iirc was what made him decide that route was bunk), but I get the feeling he's still mirroring Elan pretty well.

[FujinAkari]

He may have said it, but looking at the party he regrouped... I'm not buying it. Maybe he's not going out of his way and getting gimped party members like that level 2 wizard to be an evil opposite (which iirc was what made him decide that route was bunk), but I get the feeling he's still mirroring Elan pretty well.

It looks like he's recruiting a party to fight OOTS, but I see no indication that he's trying to build them to be an evil version of OOTS.

Z is a wizard with scaling spell resistance, he is a perfect counter to V. He may have initially been V's opposite, but that doesn't mean that is WHY Nale choose him.

Yak-Yak is even more obvious... there is nothing "opposite Belkar" about Yak-yak. Yak-yak is a ranger who likes to kill things that are weak and helpless... exactly like Belkar.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not anymore, back at the Battle of Azure City he said he was giving up on that.
What he said was he was "sick of dead weight" on his team. And he said it in the context of refusing to recruit Miko, not in the context of refusing to recruit another evil opposite. From what we've seen so far, Zz'tdri and Yukyuk are more than pulling their weight.

[Nightmarenny]

It looks like he's recruiting a party to fight OOTS, but I see no indication that he's trying to build them to be an evil version of OOTS.

Z is a wizard with scaling spell resistance, he is a perfect counter to V. He may have initially been V's opposite, but that doesn't mean that is WHY Nale choose him.

Yak-Yak is even more obvious... there is nothing "opposite Belkar" about Yak-yak. Yak-yak is a ranger who likes to kill things that are weak and helpless... exactly like Belkar.

Yak-yak is very much Belkar's opposite. He wields two hand Crossbows instead of two daggers. A Hand Crossbow is the smallest ranged piercing weapon and Daggers are the same for melee. In fact the Sword Tree and the Crossbow tree could be said to be opposites.

Its not a coincidence that he rode in on a Dog.

Z is still very much the opposite. Its harder to tell though since V's character evolution has brought him closer to the middle, so to speak, as a wizard. So Z has mirrored the growth and also gone closer to the center.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not to mention, Blackwing is trying to bring V away from Evil, whereas Qarr's purpose in life is to do the exact opposite to people.

[FujinAkari]

What he said was he was "sick of dead weight" on his team. And he said it in the context of refusing to recruit Miko, not in the context of refusing to recruit another evil opposite. From what we've seen so far, Zz'tdri and Yukyuk are more than pulling their weight.

Precisely. Nale has moved from recruiting based on thematic opposition to recruiting based on combat ability. He is looking for someone who can BEAT character X in combat, not someone who is the antithesis of them from a character standpoint.

Thus, the fact that Character X does this or this doesn't mean that whomever can beat them will do the same.


A Hand Crossbow is the smallest ranged piercing weapon and Daggers are the same for melee.

See... this does not mean 'opposite' to me :P

[Red XIV]

See... this does not mean 'opposite' to me :P
Dual-wielding melee vs dual-wielding ranged sounds like a good "evil opposite" trait.

[Nightmarenny]

Precisely. Nale has moved from recruiting based on thematic opposition to recruiting based on combat ability. He is looking for someone who can BEAT character X in combat, not someone who is the antithesis of them from a character standpoint.

Thus, the fact that Character X does this or this doesn't mean that whomever can beat them will do the same.



See... this does not mean 'opposite' to me :P

And yet it is opposite. Melee is opposite ranged. As the giants so rightly said. There must be a baseline similarity between the characters for one to truely be the others opposite.

[Innis Cabal]

And yet it is opposite. Melee is opposite ranged. As the giants so rightly said. There must be a baseline similarity between the characters for one to truely be the others opposite.

Ranged is not the opposite of melee. Casting is. Ranged is still physical if it's with arrows but really an "Opposite" is the direct difference between something and not another avenue. So another actual opposite would be...not fighting at all. Also, where has the Giant said that? An actual quote would be good.

[Nightmarenny]

Ranged is not the opposite of melee. Casting is. Ranged is still physical if it's with arrows but really an "Opposite" is the direct difference between something and not another avenue. So another actual opposite would be...not fighting at all. Also, where has the Giant said that? An actual quote would be good.

Something needn't be opposite in every way to be opposite for as you just demonstrated when it comes to concepts like those being discussed there is no true opposite. I'd rather not play "no true Scotchmen".

As for a quote I don't have the exact quote I referenced with me but here's one that some's up the sillyness of this argument.

"Since [Belkar] is utterly amoral, it was tough to devise an opponent he would really despise... In the end, I realized the perfect foil for belkar was someone who is exactly the same as he himself is..."

The giant was never using such a strenuous definition as you or a few others. I submit to you that if Yikyik is Belkars opposite(which has not been debated) then the thing I pointed out are valid. Or at least they were meant to be by the Giant.

[Aron Times]

Since Elan has a 3rd-party PrC, perhaps Nale has a Core one like Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster?

[Gandariel]

yeah, you want someone to be the PERFECT Opposite of Belkar/Elan?
quick and easy!

Elan exists.
Logically, his Evil Opposite doesn't exist.

[Kish]

Heya, assuming that Nale's set up roughly as people seem to think in the class and level geakery thread, (1 Warrior,1 Rogue, 6 Sorceror)

Look, marks next to a number are not meant to be ignored. 1+/1+/6+ is not the same as 1/1/6.

He is established as a fighter (not warrior!)/rogue/sorcerer. He is established as at least a sixth level sorcerer, and his levels in his other classes are unclear. That does not mean there is any indication that his class split is massively tilted toward sorcerer, nor does the Class and Level Geekery thread make any such claim.


Yak-Yak


Yak-yak
Yakyak would be a stupid name, according to Yukyuk.

The likely-to-be-important-to-the-plot way Yukyuk is Belkar's evil opposite, is that he treats the one creature Belkar genuinely cares about the same way Belkar has traditionally treated every other creature.

[G-Man Graves]

I would say he has a fair amount of levels in rogue. Let us not forget he can put out a whole lot of sneak attack damage. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html)

[Tanngrisnir]

Look, marks next to a number are not meant to be ignored. 1+/1+/6+ is not the same as 1/1/6.

He is established as a fighter (not warrior!)/rogue/sorcerer. He is established as at least a sixth level sorcerer, and his levels in his other classes are unclear. That does not mean there is any indication that his class split is massively tilted toward sorcerer, nor does the Class and Level Geekery thread make any such claim.

Nor does the OP. Not once does he say, "given that Nale is mostly sorcerer" or anything like that. He asks us to assume that Nale is tooled up close to what the Geekery thread has decided, in order to think about what possible prestige classes would be fitting. He has not claimed that Nale is 8th level, he hasn't ignored the + marks, he just hasn't taken them into consideration because he cant (being unknowns) and they are not really important for the speculative discussion anyway.

On topic, I'd say that he would go with some sort of arcane fighter, to make use of spell casting and his fighting abilities. Maybe something like Spellsword from Complete Warrior.

[Sr.medusa]

In core maybe the best choise will be the Arcane Trickster (Sneak atack, skills, spell levels, etc) with his base (well, some like Ftr 1/Rog 3/Soc 6/Arcane Trickster 4 or optimizing with one asasin lvl, complicated like Nale likes).

[BlackestOfMages]

arcane trickster fits well with Nale as we know (quite well know, core, fit's his build (assuming he hasn't added another multi-class to his fighter/rogue/sorceror) is a good opposite to Dashing swordsman (one gets more power being the centre of attention, one gets less)) if he was to continue the full evil opposites line.



Not anymore, back at the Battle of Azure City he said he was giving up on that

I think he was refering more to Pompey here, rather than giving up his entire character focus. it'd be like roy starting to be a wizard.

[The Pilgrim]

See... this does not mean 'opposite' to me :P

It is when a D&D Ranger has exactly two paths to follow in it's build:
- Dual-wield melee combat
- Ranged combat

Belkar is an example of #1, Yukyuk is an example of #2.

Plus, YukYuk animal companion is a Dog. Belkar animal companion is a Cat.

The moral axis is not so important here. YikYik, Belkar's first opposite, was pretty much like him, in regard to morals. The Giant pulled the moral opposites thing for YokYok, but that's about it.

[Innis Cabal]

Something needn't be opposite in every way to be opposite for as you just demonstrated when it comes to concepts like those being discussed there is no true opposite. I'd rather not play "no true Scotchmen".

As for a quote I don't have the exact quote I referenced with me but here's one that some's up the sillyness of this argument.

"Since [Belkar] is utterly amoral, it was tough to devise an opponent he would really despise... In the end, I realized the perfect foil for belkar was someone who is exactly the same as he himself is..."

The giant was never using such a strenuous definition as you or a few others. I submit to you that if Yikyik is Belkars opposite(which has not been debated) then the thing I pointed out are valid. Or at least they were meant to be by the Giant.

And I am asking for where he said that. Where are you getting that statement?

[zimmerwald1915]

Commentary in Dungeon Crawling Fools, where the Linear Guild is first introduced.

[Nightmarenny]

It is when a D&D Ranger has exactly two paths to follow in it's build:
- Dual-wield melee combat
- Ranged combat

Belkar is an example of #1, Yukyuk is an example of #2.

Plus, YukYuk animal companion is a Dog. Belkar animal companion is a Cat.

The moral axis is not so important here. YikYik, Belkar's first opposite, was pretty much like him, in regard to morals. The Giant pulled the moral opposites thing for YokYok, but that's about it.

well, in truth Yuk-yuk is probably also a TWF Ranger. The archery tree has little to offer for a crossbow wielder.

[Malanthyus]

Edited the original post for clarity, and thanks for all the responses guys.
Think I'm going to vote for arcane trickster myself. It's core, it fits Nales personality and it's less direct than Dashing Swordmans style.

[Innis Cabal]

Commentary in Dungeon Crawling Fools, where the Linear Guild is first introduced.

That...that has no baring on the present fight. At all. That is past commentary on a past (and dead) character.

[Nightmarenny]

That...that has no baring on the present fight. At all. That is past commentary on a past (and dead) character.
How does it not. If I may phrase the debate. The argument is surrounding weather Yukyuk meets the criteria of an Evil Opposite and thus: weather Nale has continued his "evil Opposite" theme. My argument is that by the criteria established with previous LG members(namely the first Kobold) he is. I then sighted the Giants own description of what an Evil Opposite should be. I believe I've done that.

In short, if you refuse to accept that Yukyuk is Belkar's evil opposite, then a number of previous LG are not either.

[zimmerwald1915]

That...that has no baring on the present fight. At all. That is past commentary on a past (and dead) character.
...you asked where Nightmarenny got the statement that Yikyik was Belkar's opposite. That's where.

[Innis Cabal]

How does it not. If I may phrase the debate. The argument is surrounding weather Yukyuk meets the criteria of an Evil Opposite and thus: weather Nale has continued his "evil Opposite" theme. My argument is that by the criteria established with previous LG members(namely the first Kobold) he is. I then sighted the Giants own description of what an Evil Opposite should be. I believe I've done that.

In short, if you refuse to accept that Yukyuk is Belkar's evil opposite, then a number of previous LG are not either.

That isn't what that quote says. It was explaining why the first kobold was picked as an evil opposite. We don't see that in the second and at the moment we don't really have any information on Yukyuk to infer that he's the same as Yikyik.

The quote was about one character and one part of the story. Not Rich's opinion on what makes an evil opposite.


...you asked where Nightmarenny got the statement that Yikyik was Belkar's opposite. That's where.

I am aware. I then, once I found out where the information was pulled from, stated that it (the quote) can't be used in this example. Because it was a quote made about a previous character and was not in fact a sweeping statement.

[Nightmarenny]

Perhaps I'm wrong but I feel as if your being frustratingly Obtuse.

[G-Man Graves]

At this high a level, taking a prestige class would be the worst thing Nale could do. His BAB is already lower than it should be, he doesn't get a whole lot of spells known, and he doesn't have many of a rogues useful abilities. Now it would be best for him to focus on one of his martial classes, either Fighter for the BAB and feats, or rogue for the abilities and additional sneak attack damage.

[Sr.medusa]

At this high a level, taking a prestige class would be the worst thing Nale could do. His BAB is already lower than it should be, he doesn't get a whole lot of spells known, and he doesn't have many of a rogues useful abilities. Now it would be best for him to focus on one of his martial classes, either Fighter for the BAB and feats, or rogue for the abilities and additional sneak attack damage.

I disagree, 4 levels of arcane trickster gave him 3 points of AB, 4 skill point/lvl, good class skils, 4 spell levels and +2d6 to SA. Personaly, better than fighter and better than rogue.

[Dalek-K]

Eldritch Knight

High BAB (+1/level)
Good Fort Save
Bonus Feat
+1 Spell casting class per level afterwards

This would help out his fighter side when he takes on Elan and give him more support through spells. Also his sneak attack is already pretty good so he doesn't need to raise that anymore... Sure it is good but it doesn't need to be at the highest to be effective. Plus you can't sneak attack what you can't hit :P

[torugo]

Watching the new clothes Nale is using in the last strip makes me think that he already has a new PrC. It seems to be something roguish. I would say arcane trickster, shadowdancer or assassin.

If clothes are linked with prestige classes....one could compare it with the examples we have of those classes in the comic. I think it resambles a lot the shadowdancer.

[Metahuman1]

I know this one is unlikely, but if he wanted a serious push to be an opposite, he might have taken something weird too get his long sword treated as a light weapon and gone for the Duelist PRC. It's Multiple ability dependent for attack and damage and defense, using both Dex and Int as opposed to Dashing swordsman's simple use of Cha, and I think Nale would find the Int too assorted things appealing given that he fancy's himself a genius, and that he likely does have a fairly high Int mod.


Plus, that might be part of what put it into Thogs head that Roy had taken a PRC that let him use his Int mod as a bonus to Attack or AC or something. He was thinking it because Roy said his brains would give him an advantage and he knew that Nale had done that exact thing with the class.


Again, bit of a long shot, but I think it's still within the realms of reasonable possibility given what were talking about.

[G-Man Graves]

Watching the new clothes Nale is using in the last strip makes me think that he already has a new PrC. It seems to be something roguish. I would say arcane trickster, shadowdancer or assassin.

If clothes are linked with prestige classes....one could compare it with the examples we have of those classes in the comic. I think it resambles a lot the shadowdancer.

Then I guess Haley has prestiged twice, once when she was in her Dark and Edgy gear, and once when she decided to go for a desert scheme.

Alternatively, maybe Nale figured that it was better to wear short sleeves instead of chainmail, long pants and sleeves, and a cape. Since, you know, desert?

[Dalek-K]

Well I'm not sure why he would do shadowdancer since it has been explained that in a stick figure comic there aren't many shadows :P

Though I guess there are more since then :p

But shadowdancer doesn't scream *LOOK AT ME* the way Nale would want :3

[Klear]

Then I guess Haley has prestiged twice, once when she was in her Dark and Edgy gear, and once when she decided to go for a desert scheme.

And once when she got drunk and converted to Thor. Not in that order.

[G-Man Graves]

And once when she got drunk and converted to Thor. Not in that order.

My God... she must be looking at some major experience penalties these days.

[Kish]

There are no experience penalties for multiclassing with prestige classes.

(Lest this be unclear, let me clarify: Prestige classes don't count toward multiclass penalties; those penalties still exist for characters with three or more classes of which one or more is prestige, they just ignore prestige classes, as though every prestige class was every race's favored class. This leads to the hilarious situation where Drizzt Do'Urden--a tri-classed fighter/ranger/barbarian, with a large gap between his highest [fighter] level and the levels of the other two classes--has a 40% experience penalty, while his evil counterpart, Artemis Entreri, is a tri-classed fighter/ranger/assassin, with equally big level gaps, but with no experience penalty because, as a human, his fighter class counts as his favored class and his assassin class is a prestige class.)

[Jan Mattys]

I think it is obvious that Nale got trained into a prestige class by Julio Scoundrel's archenemy.

It can't be any other way.

[Kish]

I'm actually drawing a blank for any kind of "student's archenemy=student of archenemy" trope.

"Student's archenemy=other student of same teacher who went bad," very common. "Student's archenemy=teacher," not uncommon. But I can't think of any examples of two students reflecting their teachers' enmity. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course--there are lots of things I'm not familiar with, starting with nearly all of anime.

[Klear]

I'm actually drawing a blank for any kind of "student's archenemy=student of archenemy" trope.

X-men and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants kinda comes to mind, though I'm not sure how much Magneto would fills the teacher role.

[Kish]

No one in the Brotherhood is the archenemy of anyone in the X-Men specifically because of Professor Xavier and Magneto being archenemies, as far as I know.

Sabertooth and Wolverine are enemies for other reasons, which, I believe, even predate their respective allegiances. And, of course, any member of one group is likely to fight any member of the other group on sight. But that doesn't make them archenemies, any more than Elan has a specific, personal issue with Redcloak just because Roy is Elan's leader and Xykon is Redcloak's.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm actually drawing a blank for any kind of "student's archenemy=student of archenemy" trope.

"Student's archenemy=other student of same teacher who went bad," very common. "Student's archenemy=teacher," not uncommon. But I can't think of any examples of two students reflecting their teachers' enmity. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course--there are lots of things I'm not familiar with, starting with nearly all of anime.

This is the entire plot of Heaven's Strongest Disciple: Kenichi (after the Ragnarok part).

[KingofMadCows]

I disagree, 4 levels of arcane trickster gave him 3 points of AB, 4 skill point/lvl, good class skils, 4 spell levels and +2d6 to SA. Personaly, better than fighter and better than rogue.

Arcane Trickster only gives 1/2 BAB. The Unseen Seer from Complete Mage gives 3/4 BAB, 4/10 sneak attack, and full caster.

In hindsight, it would have been better to make Nale a Swashbuckler instead of a Fighter since there's a feat that stacks Swashbuckler levels with Rogue levels for sneak attack so 3 Swashbuckler/4 Rogue would have 4d6 sneak attack. There's also a feat that lets you apply weapon finesse to the longsword.

[Hironomus]

Gosh, people like to nitpick. I think this is a great topic OP.

I would be inclined to say Arcane trickster like most other people. But this comic already has one of those. It can't have another one. :smallwink:

[Kish]

The comic is not going to suddenly optimize Nale. If you want to do this as a thought exercise, I would advise against using "the comic won't do X" as a reason something won't work.

[137beth]

That...that has no baring on the present fight. At all. That is past commentary on a past (and dead) character.

So, basically, something is irrelevant if and only if it does not support your claim? The Giant said melee was the opposite of ranged for the purpose of the "evil opposite" of a ranger. In fact, his explanation for why it was "opposite" does not mention the fact that the ranger in question was yikyik. The argument works exactly the same for one kobold ranger as another.

[veti]

This leads to the hilarious situation where Drizzt Do'Urden--a tri-classed fighter/ranger/barbarian, with a large gap between his highest [fighter] level and the levels of the other two classes--has a 40% experience penalty, while his evil counterpart, Artemis Entreri, is a tri-classed fighter/ranger/assassin, with equally big level gaps, but with no experience penalty because, as a human, his fighter class counts as his favored class and his assassin class is a prestige class.)

"Hilarious", huh?

I guess you had to be there.

[Hironomus]

The comic is not going to suddenly optimize Nale. If you want to do this as a thought exercise, I would advise against using "the comic won't do X" as a reason something won't work.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him having picked up a prestige class though. It's not like that totally goes against his character. It's a little late to optomize him at this stage. As a thought excercise its more like damage control.

[veti]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him having picked up a prestige class though. It's not like that totally goes against his character. It's a little late to optomize him at this stage. As a thought excercise its more like damage control.

"Needlessly complicated" is what Nale is all about. It would be entirely in character for him to pick up something that sounds cool but is in fact kinda silly, such as Shadowdancer or Dragon Disciple.

What I think would be out of character is actually trying to "optimize"...

[Alagaesian]

Watching the new clothes Nale is using in the last strip makes me think that he already has a new PrC. It seems to be something roguish. I would say arcane trickster, shadowdancer or assassin.

If clothes are linked with prestige classes....one could compare it with the examples we have of those classes in the comic. I think it resambles a lot the shadowdancer.

Actually, his "new outfit" appears to be an old outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html) with the sleeves torn off and the neck ripped open a little.

[Procyonpi]

Nale should just become an actual Bard.

[Kish]

Can't, he's Lawful.

[Silver Swift]

Nale should just become an actual Bard.

Plus, would becoming a bard at this point really be beneficial? I would think that adding yet another non prc class to the mix would just make the whole thing even more needlessly complicated.

[Sr.medusa]

You can try... Blackward. Nale is Lawful Evil, has friendly contact (I mean, REALY friendly contact) with an evil outsider and improve his melee competence and his Sneak Atack. True, don't gain lots of skillpoints and is more MAD but... needlessly complicated ftw

[Spleen_]

I'm actually drawing a blank for any kind of "student's archenemy=student of archenemy" trope.

Goku and Tien Shinhan

As far as the topic at hand, consider the following (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html). Since Elan's PrC is based entirely around his love of storytelling clichés, I posit that Nale's PrC would be one that builds off of his love for the needlessly complicated.

What that would be, I don't know.

[Irbis]

Now it would be best for him to focus on one of his martial classes, either Fighter for the BAB and feats, or rogue for the abilities and additional sneak attack damage.

...Eldritch Knight trumps these by colossal margin.