Wizard vs Wizard

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I've had this character concept in my mind after thinking about a fantasy wizard's guild and it won't leave me. If the membership of the guild is divided into specific roles, I mused that there may be a sort of counter-wizard, or a wizard whose job is to neutralize enemy wizards.

I thought about it before going to bed but came up blank. What strategy and/or build would a wizard use to defeat another? It seems like it'd end up as a game of MTG where hopefully you prepared the right "cards" and the opponent didn't.

Any ideas?

[Yukitsu]

Part 1 of this being immune to everything a wizard can potentially do.

Part 2 is making sure you go first, because part 1 failed.

Part 3 is having something that invalidates his part 1 by utilizing part 2.

[Divide by Zero]

I firmly believe that when actual high-level, highly optimized wizards have a reason to duel each other, they meet somewhere, share a nice cup of tea, compare their lists of contingencies and immunities and circumventions, and declare the owner of the more completely paranoid list the victor. They're both smart enough to see exactly how it would happen if they got down to it and fought, and they see no reason to actually go through the effort when the outcome is predetermined.

tencharacters

[ericgrau]

Feeblemind, nightmare and [empowered] touch of idiocy are some of the spells to look into. There are also defensive measures you can cast before the fight such as protection from spells and [empowered] spell turning.



I firmly believe that when actual high-level, highly optimized wizards have a reason to duel each other, they meet somewhere, share a nice cup of tea, compare their lists of contingencies and immunities and circumventions, and declare the owner of the more completely paranoid list the victor. They're both smart enough to see exactly how it would happen if they got down to it and fought, and they see no reason to actually go through the effort when the outcome is predetermined.

The smarter one draws out the meeting as long as possible, asks about the other's barber or keeps the teacup or etc., nightmares the foe after his next 15 minute adventuring day and then attacks. He also sends a mislead double to the meeting. If that fails he can always use whatever he collected to scry and take it from there.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I firmly believe that when actual high-level, highly optimized wizards have a reason to duel each other, they meet somewhere, share a nice cup of tea, compare their lists of contingencies and immunities and circumventions, and declare the owner of the more completely paranoid list the victor. They're both smart enough to see exactly how it would happen if they got down to it and fought, and they see no reason to actually go through the effort when the outcome is predetermined.
tencharacters

Quite. Amazing how one behaves when facing superior firepower.

[Doc Roc]

The only consistently reliable way to kill an opposing wizard is to rewrite time so he never existed. I can help you with this.

[SamBurke]

Anti-magic field. That easy.

[Divide by Zero]

The only consistently reliable way to kill an opposing wizard is to rewrite time so he never existed. I can help you with this.

For maximum style points, teleport through time to some point after his birth but before he achieves Ultimate Arcane Power™, and then unname him.

[NNescio]

Anti-magic field. That easy.

You... turn off your own magic, buffs included. He chucks orbs or shrunken rocks from afar.


Feeblemind, nightmare and [empowered] touch of idiocy are some of the spells to look into. There are also defensive measures you can cast before the fight such as protection from spells and [empowered] spell turning.


The smarter one draws out the meeting as long as possible, asks about the other's barber or keeps the teacup or etc., nightmares the foe after his next 15 minute adventuring day and then attacks. He also sends a mislead double to the meeting. If that fails he can always use whatever he collected to scry and take it from there.

Mind Blank is a rather common protection among most wizards. Or anyone with spellcasting, really.

[Divide by Zero]

You... turn off your own magic, buffs included. He chucks orbs or shrunken rocks from afar.

You could multiclass cleric and grab Initiate of Mystra, but I'm not sure whether that counts.

[SamBurke]

Ok. Better yet: Mark of Anti-Magic. It's like a mark of Justice, only anti-magic. Or, even better (and plausible): Mark of Justice (Anti-Magic). If they breathe, they explode in an anti-magic field.

[Divide by Zero]

Ok. Better yet: Mark of Anti-Magic. It's like a mark of Justice, only anti-magic. Or, even better (and plausible): Mark of Justice (Anti-Magic). If they breathe, they explode in an anti-magic field.

Assuming for the moment that we're including custom spells: how are you getting past their defenses to cast it on them? If you can do that, you could just cast a kill spell instead.

[NNescio]

Ok. Better yet: Mark of Anti-Magic. It's like a mark of Justice, only anti-magic. Or, even better (and plausible): Mark of Justice (Anti-Magic). If they breathe, they explode in an anti-magic field.

Casting time, 10 minutes. Range, touch. Can only be cast on a willing or restrained target.

[ericgrau]

Mind Blank is a rather common protection among most wizards. Or anyone with spellcasting, really.
Hence the scry backup option. Or the nice thing about nightmare is the range, meaning you wait until the day when he doesn't mind blank or it gets dispelled or etc., otherwise he's out an 8th level spell every day and has 1 less prismatic wall or protection from spells or polymorph any object or etc. or etc. Basically there are 10 things to do at each spell level and 5-6 spell slots per level. Being able to scry and choose which one is especially helpful.

[SamBurke]

Oh-hoh-ho! It's not hard to work around the rules.

1. Mark of Justice is exactly like Bestow Curse, pretty much.

2. Bestow curse's link. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bestow-curse)

2.a. Note the words:
"You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above." I note the word: SHOULD.

2.b. Note that "you may invent your own curse", but don't point out the second part.

2.b.i. If necessary (IE, someone points out the "should be no more powerful than 6 points of ability damage" bit), then argue. It's not that hard to debate and argue anything, really.

10 minute casting time is really the only issue. However, Bestow Curse is just as good.

[Divide by Zero]

Hence the scry backup option. Or the nice thing about nightmare is the range, meaning you wait until the day when he doesn't mind blank or it gets dispelled or etc., otherwise he's out an 8th level spell every day and has 1 less prismatic wall or protection from spells or polymorph any object or etc. or etc. Basically there are 10 things to do at each spell level and 5-6 spell slots per level. Being able to scry and choose which one is especially helpful.

Every high-level wizard will have mind blank up 24 hours a day unless it's dispelled, so you'd have to either happen to scry him at the exact right time or be in the immediate area when it happened.

[NNescio]

Hence the scry backup option. Or the nice thing about nightmare is the range, meaning you wait until the day when he doesn't mind blank or it gets dispelled or etc., otherwise he's out an 8th level spell every day and has 1 less prismatic wall or protection from spells or polymorph any object or etc. or etc. Basically there are 10 things to do at each spell level and 5-6 spell slots per level. Being able to scry and choose which one is especially helpful.

Ranged: Unlimited only covers the same plane of existence. And Rope Trick is distressingly common.

[Divide by Zero]

10 minute casting time is really the only issue. However, Bestow Curse is just as good.

In that case you have to deal with a will save instead, in addition to making the touch attack, so why not cast one of the various save-or-dies instead? This is assuming you can even get within attacking range, and aren't fighting an astral projection or celerity+whatever or any of the other dozens of NO options a wizard has access to.

And yeah, you're getting into serious DM fiat territory, which I think defeats the purpose of this exercise.

[NNescio]

Oh-hoh-ho! It's not hard to work around the rules.

1. Mark of Justice is exactly like Bestow Curse, pretty much.

2. Bestow curse's link. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bestow-curse)

2.a. Note the words: I note the word: SHOULD.

2.b. Note that "you may invent your own curse", but don't point out the second part.

2.b.i. If necessary (IE, someone points out the "should be no more powerful than 6 points of ability damage" bit), then argue. It's not that hard to debate and argue anything, really.

10 minute casting time is really the only issue. However, Bestow Curse is just as good.

Oh wait, let's use Prestidigitation to induce Nuclear Fusion! 'cause nothing in the spell description say we can't do so! It says that "The effects are minor and have severe limitations" but it doesn't say how minor or what the limitations are! See!

Also, I invent a curse to give me infinite power and immunity to everything! And destroy the universe ('cept for me) while I'm at it. 'cause I'm cursed with awesome! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CursedWithAwesome) What do you mean I can't do that?! The spell just says it "should be no more powerful". SHOULD. It doesn't have to.

[/sarcasm]

[Seharvepernfan]

or shrunken rocks from afar.

Wow. Does this really work?

So, shrink item on a boulder, throw it as an improvised weapon or even a sling stone if small enough?

[Flickerdart]

Being a good anti-wizard involves the same things as being a good wizard.

At lower levels (pre-Lesser Planar Binding, pretty much) this is a role that actually makes sense, though for the most part it necessitates Dispel Magic and thus is only actually around for four levels. Before that, readying an action to blast people in the face is a remarkably effective counterspell. Aside from that, you're looking at various buffs to make sure your party can resist enemy spells, at which point your opponent will want to get those buffs down and so uses Dispel Magic or a prepared blast to stop you from casting it and now this is going around in circles.

[Divide by Zero]

Being a good anti-wizard involves the same things as being a good wizard.

At lower levels (pre-Lesser Planar Binding, pretty much) this is a role that actually makes sense, though for the most part it necessitates Dispel Magic and thus is only actually around for four levels. Before that, readying an action to blast people in the face is a remarkably effective counterspell. Aside from that, you're looking at various buffs to make sure your party can resist enemy spells, at which point your opponent will want to get those buffs down and so uses Dispel Magic or a prepared blast to stop you from casting it and now this is going around in circles.

So basically an optimized low-level wizard duel involves the two of them standing in place with readied actions until one of them dies of thirst.

[Rhaegar14]

So I understand that Shadowcasters aren't too awesome, but why has no one mentioned Noctumancer out of ToM?

Short and sweet version: Noctumancers are hybrid Shadowcaster-Wizards with a lot of class features built around counterspells and other ways to screw up enemy casters.

[Gavinfoxx]

So...

have you seen this?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation

Just saying!

[NNescio]

So I understand that Shadowcasters aren't too awesome, but why has no one mentioned Noctumancer out of ToM?

Short and sweet version: Noctumancers are hybrid Shadowcaster-Wizards with a lot of class features built around counterspells and other ways to screw up enemy casters.

An Abjurer/Master Specialist can probably do it better, assuming they have access to the Spell Compendium.

It gets crazier once they start taking levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

Taking down another high-level wizard is probably still hard though, unless it's an all-out slugfest for some reason (and assuming that the opponent doesn't have levels in something like say, Incantrix).

[J.Gellert]

I firmly believe that when actual high-level, highly optimized wizards have a reason to duel each other, they meet somewhere, share a nice cup of tea, compare their lists of contingencies and immunities and circumventions, and declare the owner of the more completely paranoid list the victor. They're both smart enough to see exactly how it would happen if they got down to it and fought, and they see no reason to actually go through the effort when the outcome is predetermined.

The problem with optimized wizards is that they often have 8 Wis, so even if they can tell who's stronger, they won't care :smallbiggrin:

[Haruspex_Pariah]

So...

have you seen this?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation

Just saying!

Interesting. I've drifted away from the WOTC forums ever since that renovation they did so I didn't think to look there.

[Eldariel]

An Abjurer/Master Specialist can probably do it better, assuming they have access to the Spell Compendium.

It gets crazier once they start taking levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

Taking down another high-level wizard is probably still hard though, unless it's an all-out slugfest for some reason (and assuming that the opponent doesn't have levels in something like say, Incantrix).

The default Illumian Cloistered Cleric 1/Abjurer 1/Master Specialist 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 1 works on certain levels of optimization, but once we get to Persistent Buffs, Stupidity and Free Casting (Shadowcraft Mage, Dweomerkeepers & Incantatrixes), the ability to counter and dispel anything and make all the dispelled spells hurt people isn't going to suffice anymore.

At that point, you end up with some manner of demiplane/scry competition with everything depending on who has better written contingencies, better site of combat and more prescience far as the fight goes. Ultimate answer is what Doc Roc offered...but unfortunately the opposing Wizard has the same capability so it becomes a race against time with the ability to traverse time. ...huh?

[JohnDaBarr]

Ok before this start's to be a anti-wizard build contest I say....

go first (heh that's understandable) and hit the damn guy with a antimagic ray then disintegrate the ground beneath him and fill the hole with lava or earth or badger's....

[Eldariel]

Ok before this start's to be a anti-wizard build contest I say....

go first (heh that's understandable) and hit the damn guy with a antimagic ray then disintegrate the ground beneath him and fill the hole with lava or earth or badger's....

Anti-Magic Ray is a spectacularly poor spell choice.
1) It's a Ray; Ray Deflection, Counter, high Touch AC or whatever completely effs you over.
2) It offers Spell Resistance so you probably need Assay Resistance to land it.
3) It still offers a Will-save.
4) If all that somehow succeeds, the target still can use Spell Completion items to get out of it.
5) This didn't account for any actual active defense like Celerity, Greater Mirror Image, Contingency, contingent spells, immediate action Countermagic, etc.

Just because a spell has the words "Antimagic" doesn't mean it's a good spell against casters. Same goes for Anti-Magic Field outside few methods of use, by the way.

[Johel]

I've had this character concept in my mind after thinking about a fantasy wizard's guild and it won't leave me. If the membership of the guild is divided into specific roles, I mused that there may be a sort of counter-wizard, or a wizard whose job is to neutralize enemy wizards.

I thought about it before going to bed but came up blank. What strategy and/or build would a wizard use to defeat another? It seems like it'd end up as a game of MTG where hopefully you prepared the right "cards" and the opponent didn't.

Any ideas?

Once a wizard has access to 8th level spells, he is basically a walking god.
It doesn't mean he is invincible.
But the amount of resources needed to bring him down is so high that most people won't bother trying if he isn't causing them problems.

If he does create problem, negotiations would be the first step.
"Ok, we are both mighty and smart.
Fighting would be something close to mutual destruction. You have your goals. I have mine.
Let's try to work it so we can both achieve them without opposing each other."

If it fails, then you would have a need for much more than a single wizard to take out another wizard.
Something like the Master of the guild + his most powerful subordinates, all going at it for weeks before the final strike.

For lesser wizards, it would go down to a lot of preparation before sending a higher level wizard to kill them.

Failing to have such assets to spare, you better not try to take out fellow wizards.

That would be the whole point of a Wizard Guild :

At low level, you join to have easier, cheaper access to knowledge and logistic stuff, so that you grow more powerful more quickly.
At middle level, you stay because it's handy to have those low-level Wizards doing the boring stuff for you and you start needing protection.
At high level, you don't really need to stay except that the other high level wizards wouldn't like you to be an freelancer.

[Flickerdart]

So basically an optimized low-level wizard duel involves the two of them standing in place with readied actions until one of them dies of thirst.
No, because they'd both have Rings of Sustenance, but also because they'd seek cover to cast a useful spell unmolested. If they have Abrupt Jaunt, this is especially easy to achieve.

[Radar]

If you stay at low level of optimisation and paranoia, then a reworked Arcane Archer (with actual casting progression) might be a fun option as an anti-caster. It might be interesting in Gestalt as well - chugging arrows with Antimagic Field or Maw of Chaos under enemy's feet.

Psion or better StP Erudite might be an interesting choice, due to the ability to break action economy more efficiently and unlimited power points. There are also some powers, that are unavailable as spells, like Divert Teleport, Microcosm (only defence is Power Resistance - there should be a way to circumvent that; it might even have a chance do bypass some of contingecies, since it's effect is rather unusual), Time Regression (especially if you can cast it more then once in a row - just follow him in reverse through time to a point, when he was weak), Metafaculty can break through most if not all anti-scry defences and gives very acurate information.

Still, a prepared wizard requires just crazy levels of counter-preparations.

[Marnath]

You... turn off your own magic, buffs included. He chucks orbs or shrunken rocks from afar.


In theory, you could wait until he's in a small enough room, like a bedroom, that he can't get outside the field and then surprise him. All you need is to be enough stronger that you can pin him and choke him to death.:smallwink:

[Radar]

In theory, you could wait until he's in a small enough room, like a bedroom, that he can't get outside the field and then surprise him. All you need is to be enough stronger that you can pin him and choke him to death.:smallwink:
In theory: Go, go Tinfoil Hat!
Shrink Item + metal dome = fancy hat, that saves you from Antimagic Field automatically. It has other uses as well.

[Eldariel]

In theory, you could wait until he's in a small enough room, like a bedroom, that he can't get outside the field and then surprise him. All you need is to be enough stronger that you can pin him and choke him to death.:smallwink:

And hope he lacks access to shrunken items, Invoke Magic or something immediate that blocks line of effect or stops the AMF (Celerity > Any Wall, Contingency > Tele Away, Counterspell from Battlemagic Perception/Divine Defiance/Duelward/whatever, etc.) :smallwink:

[Greenish]

In theory, you could wait until he's in a small enough room, like a bedroom, that he can't get outside the field and then surprise him. All you need is to be enough stronger that you can pin him and choke him to death.:smallwink:You'd only have to hope he doesn't have contingency/immediate counter for that.

And if he doesn't, well, you probably killed a sorcerer, since Int is not a dump stat for wizards. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

Someone seriously needs to start a wizard duel thread in the play by post section. Just 1v1 level 20 wizards, standard WBL, vary the arena each time. Rather than gladitorial arena setups we need a wizard's tea room, a magic item shop, a wizard stronghold, the plane of X, etc., etc.

[Marnath]

And hope he lacks access to shrunken items, Invoke Magic or something immediate that blocks line of effect or stops the AMF (Celerity > Any Wall, Contingency > Tele Away, Counterspell from Battlemagic Perception/Divine Defiance/Duelward/whatever, etc.) :smallwink:

Ah yes, Schrodinger's wizard, who always has exactly the right 3 or 4 spell chain to deal with every conceivable action by any enemy.:smallyuk: I was thinking more along the lines of what would realistically see play.

[Eldariel]

Ah yes, Schrodinger's wizard, who always has exactly the right 3 or 4 spell chain to deal with every conceivable action by any enemy.:smallyuk: I was thinking more along the lines of what would realistically see play.

What? I listed like 5 different options any one of which would do it and some of which every single Wizard has no reason not to use (Contingency, Contingent Spells, Celerity, Shrunk Items, Battlemagic Perception).

Seriously, Schrödinger's Wizard is an appropriate moniker if someone brings up a protection that isn't something trivially available to anyone preparing Wizard-spells, and answering common threats in an efficient manner. Simple counters to most common threats for a Wizard (and 99% of all threats)? Yeah, I don't exactly see why a Wizard would not have those. All the stuff is like 1 complexity level above "Prepare Glitterdust"; utterly basic ._.

[NNescio]

Ah yes, Schrodinger's wizard, who always has exactly the right 3 or 4 spell chain to deal with every conceivable action by any enemy.:smallyuk: I was thinking more along the lines of what would realistically see play.

Celerity, Contingency ('through the spell or the feat), and teleportation effects are a dime a dozen among higher level wizards. And universally prepared, for Celerity and teleportation spells.

[Doc Roc]

Ah yes, Schrodinger's wizard, who always has exactly the right 3 or 4 spell chain to deal with every conceivable action by any enemy.:smallyuk: I was thinking more along the lines of what would realistically see play.

It's amazing how well prepared you can be. I'm tired of this argument. An optimized wizard may have upwards of a hundred relevant spells prepared. One of those is probably going to be a good solution.

It's that simple.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Ah yes, Schrodinger's wizard, who always has exactly the right 3 or 4 spell chain to deal with every conceivable action by any enemy.:smallyuk: I was thinking more along the lines of what would realistically see play.

So what, Hathrans with Acorn of Far Travel and Spontaneous Diviners with Versatile Spellcaster don't see play?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Shovel points into DEX (including DEX-pumping items), take Improved Initiative and anything that pumps initiative. On your turn, cast Maximized, Empowered, triple Reached Shivering Touch (take the fear Arcane Thesis or be an Incantatrix for this to work). Unless the Wizard had a DEX score in the mid-twenties or higher, they are helpless and unable to cast spells with somatic components (and perhaps verbal, depending on how you rule speech requirements). Further, since you do have a DEX score that is likely in the mid-twenties or higher, this particular strategy can't be turned against you or used against you effectively.

Of course, this alone isn't going to do it (because of the plethora of contingencies and counter-measures that the Wizard you're fighting has), but since you're also a Wizard, you can build around this strategy so as to bypass these countermeasures and overcome the weaknesses of this strategy (pumping DEX circumvents the touch attack problem, but Spell Resistance, if any, still has to be overcome). You now have an anti-wizard strategy that is that much less effective against other anti-wizards.

[NNescio]

Shovel points into DEX (including DEX-pumping items), take Improved Initiative and anything that pumps initiative. On your turn, cast Maximized, Empowered, triple Reached Shivering Touch (take the fear Arcane Thesis or be an Incantatrix for this to work). Unless the Wizard had a DEX score in the mid-twenties or higher, they are helpless and unable to cast spells with somatic components (and perhaps verbal, depending on how you rule speech requirements). Further, since you do have a DEX score that is likely in the mid-twenties or higher, this particular strategy can't be turned against you or used against you effectively.

Of course, this alone isn't going to do it (because of the plethora of contingencies and counter-measures that the Wizard you're fighting has), but since you're also a Wizard, you can build around this strategy so as to bypass these countermeasures and overcome the weaknesses of this strategy (pumping DEX circumvents the touch attack problem, but Spell Resistance, if any, still has to be overcome). You now have an anti-wizard strategy that is that much less effective against other anti-wizards.

Ray Deflection.

(Reached spells effectively turn into rays, so any anti-ray strategy would also work.)

[Radar]

Someone seriously needs to start a wizard duel thread in the play by post section. Just 1v1 level 20 wizards, standard WBL, vary the arena each time. Rather than gladitorial arena setups we need a wizard's tea room, a magic item shop, a wizard stronghold, the plane of X, etc., etc.
It gets way too complicated. I remember a party vs. single wizard fight, were the party got wiped on their surprise round, because they triggered a Contingency and the wizard chained over 20 rounds to place Maws of Chaos and other no-save-just-take-damage spells around them. Ring Gates were involved as well. If you go that deep, basic mechanics of the system break apart.

[Doc Roc]

It gets way too complicated. I remember a party vs. single wizard fight, were the party got wiped on their surprise round, because they triggered a Contingency and the wizard chained over 20 rounds to place Maws of Chaos and other no-save-just-take-damage spells around them. Ring Gates were involved as well. If you go that deep, basic mechanics of the system break apart.

I'm never going to live that one down, am I?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I'm never going to live that one down, am I?

I don't see why you'd want to.

[tyckspoon]

Ray Deflection.

(Reached spells effectively turn into rays, so any anti-ray strategy would also work.)

See also immunity to ability damage and/or Cold damage. Shivering Touch is really potent against monsters as written; player characters/NPCs built with gear are a lot more likely to have protection against it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ray Deflection.

(Reached spells effectively turn into rays, so any anti-ray strategy would also work.)

I think the argument applies better when you consider it in principle; given a situation where each Wizard has to apply an equal number of contingencies and backups just to counter the other, having a strategy your opponent has to counter, but you don't, is advantageous to you, because even if it failed, it expended effort on behalf of the other.

Tyckspoon: There is a metamagic feat that circumvents cold immunities, with a +1 modifier no less, so Arcane Thesis negates its spell level increase (if you went that route). Regardless, I repeat my point that it is a strategy that simply works better against your opponent than you, given the differences in outcome when and if all contingencies do fail, which alone makes it considerable on some level.

[Radar]

I'm never going to live that one down, am I?
Don't tell me it wasn't fun to pull all the stops. :smalltongue:
I really like to read about TO shenanigans - it just gives a serious headache to DM such characters. By the way, was any of the ToS Tier 0.5 builds ever shown to public?

[Doc Roc]

Don't tell me it wasn't fun to pull all the stops. :smalltongue:
I really like to read about TO shenanigans - it just gives a serious headache to DM such characters. By the way, was any of the ToS Tier 0.5 builds ever shown to public?

The cube was! None of the spell dancers ever got shown, but the hounds were actual characters. A few others got shown, I think.

As radar indicates, I know as much about Full Frontal Wizardry as anyone. Speaking of knowing: couple of your items made it into Legend!

[Radar]

As radar indicates, I know as much about Full Frontal Wizardry as anyone. Speaking of knowing: couple of your items made it into Legend!
Squeeeee!!! :smallbiggrin:

To stay relevant to the thread: I think, that instead of singular anti-wizards, a guild would form anti-wizard groups with caster specialising in different aspects of taking another wizard down (scrying, counterspelling, dispelling, containment or what have you) - cue a wizard-only campaign about bringing down rogue wizards (not actual Rogue/Wizards). They might even hire sorcerers, to gain access to those nifty action-economy breakers (Arcane Fusion line and Arcane Spellsurge).

[agahii]

I always assumed that in reality(an actual game and not a thought experiment) It would be very expensive time wise for a wizard to reapply a contingency of say "activate celerity anytime I am targeted for a harmful effect or be in the area of a harmful effect" . The reason being in an adventuring day I'm sure that the contingency will be triggered several times and it is 10 min casting time(plus 2 spell slots each time). Also in a wizard duel you would only get one chance for it to go off, then if you don't win in the next round, you don't have it. In your standard action you get from celerity for probably time stop or teleport, you will trigger the other wizards contingency with the same wording. After that you are back to whoever acted first getting a spell on the other wizard before w/e that wizard set up in his time-stop effects you.

After that round if they are both still alive, and not teleported away, it will be an actual battle and not just general contingency protection.

I can see an argument for the wizard teleporting away, but if she was flatfooted it could be an attack from a butler spilling hot soup for all she knows, so instant tele would be wasteful/cowardly.

craft contingent spell is worded oddly. As A DM I usually wont allow it, because of the headaches but in a RAW discussion wouldn't it be fairly expensive gold wise to have several of them reapplied every day several times?

[Doc Roc]

I always assumed that in reality(an actual game and not a thought experiment) It would be very expensive time wise for a wizard to reapply a contingency of say "activate celerity anytime I am targeted for a harmful effect or be in the area of a harmful effect" . The reason being in an adventuring day I'm sure that the contingency will be triggered several times and it is 10 min casting time(plus 2 spell slots each time). Also in a wizard duel you would only get one chance for it to go off, then if you don't win in the next round, you don't have it. In your standard action you get from celerity for probably time stop or teleport, you will trigger the other wizards contingency with the same wording. After that you are back to whoever acted first getting a spell on the other wizard before w/e that wizard set up in his time-stop effects you.

After that round if they are both still alive, and not teleported away, it will be an actual battle and not just general contingency protection.

I can see an argument for the wizard teleporting away, but if she was flatfooted it could be an attack from a butler spilling hot soup for all she knows, so instant tele would be wasteful/cowardly.

craft contingent spell is worded oddly. As A DM I usually wont allow it, because of the headaches but in a RAW discussion wouldn't it be fairly expensive gold wise to have several of them reapplied every day several times?

On the other hand, that simple contingency tends to save your life. It's just that simple.

[agahii]

One time. How many times will you be targeted in a typical battle? How often will you have 10 extra mins between every battle. If I wanted to kill a wizard, id send in a weaker spellcaster looking like a real threat, and then come in myself halfway through his recasting of contingency(to answer the OPs topic).

Yes in a game I would recast my contingency after every battle given the opportunity. Realistically, I will not have the time very often(at least in games I play).

I agree in thought experiments It will always be on, but in game there will be times it is not.

[Radar]

One time. How many times will you be targeted in a typical battle? How often will you have 10 extra mins between every battle. If I wanted to kill a wizard, id send in a weaker spellcaster looking like a real threat, and then come in myself halfway through his recasting of contingency(to answer the OPs topic).

Yes in a game I would recast my contingency after every battle given the opportunity. Realistically, I will not have the time very often(at least in games I play).

I agree in thought experiments It will always be on, but in game there will be times it is not.
You don't put Contingency as your first layer of defence - that's what regular buffs and items are for. You change the wording for something like "Activate Celerity, if I'm about to be hit by a harmful effect that none of my spells, items or inherent immunities blocks and I'm unable or unwilling to actively counter it." (or something similar). Even without Contingency, Celerity or Abrupt Jaunt are covering most threats with an immediate action. Things get even worse with Craft Contingency.

Also: a wizard low on spell slots won't fight to the last breath - he will Teleport or Planeshift away.

[agahii]

You don't put Contingency as your first layer of defence - that's what regular buffs and items are for. You change the wording for something like "Activate Celerity, if I'm about to be hit by a harmful effect that none of my spells, items or inherent immunities blocks and I'm unable or unwilling to actively counter it." (or something similar). Even without Contingency, Celerity or Abrupt Jaunt are covering most threats with an immediate action. Things get even worse with Craft Contingency.

Also: a wizard low on spell slots won't fight to the last breath - he will Teleport or Planeshift away.

1. That is still general enough to be gone in the 1st round

2. celerity and abrupt jaunt are both immediate actions which are only a 1/rd thing. If a wizard used it to get out of something, i'd cast a quicken version of something just as deadly.

3. Wizard is rocket tag not a gradual wearing down of hp. If a wizard effects a wizard, I doubt the effected wizard will be in a state to be able to tele or planeshift away. If the wizard just always runs in the first round I doubt the player will ever accomplish anything.

I'm not saying wizard is not an I win button, what I'm saying is it is impossible to be prepared for every possibility at every moment, especially as a PC doing actual adventuring toward a goal.

[Doc Roc]

One time. How many times will you be targeted in a typical battle? How often will you have 10 extra mins between every battle. If I wanted to kill a wizard, id send in a weaker spellcaster looking like a real threat, and then come in myself halfway through his recasting of contingency(to answer the OPs topic).

Yes in a game I would recast my contingency after every battle given the opportunity. Realistically, I will not have the time very often(at least in games I play).

I agree in thought experiments It will always be on, but in game there will be times it is not.

I get targeted once. Or never. I expect that once to be fatal, and my celerity to make it a never.

[agahii]

I get targeted once. Or never. I expect that once to be fatal, and my celerity to make it a never.

One time in an adventuring day? Nice Dm you have there. Maybe you should type out a bit longer response so I know what you are talking about?

If you mean once and you teleport away..then well the bbeg just blew up the world because you ran away may end up a problem eventually.

You mean once a fight because you would end the fight in that one round, again nice DM you have only throwing a few nonprepared foes at you at a time.

If you mean a wizard that just sits at home all day and not a PC..well I agreed with you there but that is thought expirement and not practical game like I'm talking about.

[arguskos]

One time in an adventuring day? Nice Dm you have there. Maybe you should type out a bit longer response so I know what you are talking about?
Hahahahahaha...

Ok, allow me to explain that the guy you're responding to there plays on a level that you probably don't quite realize. Games at true high-op levels in 3.5 do not follow the assumptions that lower op level games do. Fights last for 6 seconds, maybe, simply because everything ends in one, or less, shot. Often, fights end before they even start, simply because of the power of spells like foresight, moment of prescience, et al.

This has zero to do with DMs, and everything to do with differing assumptions as to how the system works.

[Doc Roc]

One time in an adventuring day? Nice Dm you have there. Maybe you should type out a bit longer response so I know what you are talking about?

If you mean once and you teleport away..then well the bbeg just blew up the world because you ran away may end up a problem eventually.

You mean once a fight because you would end the fight in that one round, again nice DM you have only throwing a few nonprepared foes at you at a time.

If you mean a wizard that just sits at home all day and not a PC..well I agreed with you there but that is thought expirement and not practical game like I'm talking about.

::sighs ::
I meant that I get targeted by an enemy wizard once in the fight. The attention, however brief, of a wizard tends to be very fatal and very bloody. One might cordially call it bloody fatal. So I try to target them first, and I use celerity as my lever for doing this. My contingency tends to be "When I cast nerveskitter, trigger celerity." Of interesting note is that nerveskitter is technically cast before the surprise round. It's not perfectly clear if you're flat-footed at this point or not, the text of nerveskitter has been a source of considerable debate in and of itself.

Also, I tend to play very light weight characters, leading to the hilarious situation of me being carried away while casting my contingency. As long as they're relatively careful, and they are if I'm around, I've yet to be dragged into something that wasn't a set-piece ambush without my contingency back up.

[arguskos]

Also, I tend to play very light weight characters, leading to the hilarious situation of me being carried away while casting my contingency. As long as they're relatively careful, and they are if I'm around, I've yet to be dragged into something that wasn't a set-piece ambush without my contingency back up.
Wait a second... your party members cart you around while you recast your Contingency? Doesn't that provoke Concentration checks (vigorous/violent movement)? :smalltongue:

[NNescio]

Wait a second... your party members cart you around while you recast your Contingency? Doesn't that provoke Concentration checks (vigorous/violent movement)? :smalltongue:

Meh, it's DC 10 or 15 anyway, which he'll autopass. :smallbiggrin:

[arguskos]

Meh, it's DC 10 or 15 anyway, which he'll autopass. :smallbiggrin:
I just like the idea of that, provoking Concentration checks due to being carried around like a sack of gold-plated potatoes while resetting Contingency. :smallbiggrin:

[Radar]

1. That is still general enough to be gone in the 1st round.
I might have worded it more carefully, but I don't like to go into semantic details here. We might be working on different assumption here, but I doubt, that a buffed wizard would let anything hit him on a first round (I'm not talking high-OP here - I don't have the experiance and rounds stop being relevant anyway). You have Invisibility line, Nondetection, Mirror Image line, Blink, Spell Turning, Spell Immunity, various spell giving outright immunities, Rings of Counterspelling and much, much more. Getting through those defences would take more then a single action.
We didn't even touch the problem of Clones, Simulacra, Magic Jar use and abuse and Astral Projections. It wouldn't be hard to imagine, that finding and killing a single powerful wizard is a task for a whole campaign.

2. celerity and abrupt jaunt are both immediate actions which are only a 1/rd thing. If a wizard used it to get out of something, i'd cast a quicken version of something just as deadly.
I'd rather counter his Celerity with my own, before he could use that standard action. :smalltongue: The point is, it adds yet another layer of defence to strip down every round and quickening a spell is usualy costly (either much higher spell slot, or very limited per-day pool of uses).

3. Wizard is rocket tag not a gradual wearing down of hp. If a wizard effects a wizard, I doubt the effected wizard will be in a state to be able to tele or planeshift away. If the wizard just always runs in the first round I doubt the player will ever accomplish anything.

I'm not saying wizard is not an I win button, what I'm saying is it is impossible to be prepared for every possibility at every moment, especially as a PC doing actual adventuring toward a goal.
And to win a rocket tag you have to be quicker then your enemy (or be exceptionally good at dodging). It means, that everything you want to do to the bad wizard, he can throw back at you. Besides, if you have time for Celerity, you have time for a Teleport. Yes, you can outsmart a wizard just as you can win a chess turnament - you just have to be better at tactical planning and predict more moves ahead then your enemy does.
Also: I wouldn't bring plot or players into the equation - power of narrative overrides all rules and makes then irrelevant.

[Fable Wright]

Hm... I would go with a Sorcerer, whip out a BSF-grappler with a contingency'd Antimagic field (set to go off when within 10ft of target wizard), Greater teleport him above the wizard in question, and let him do the dirty work. Not too hard...

[Eldariel]

Hm... I would go with a Sorcerer, whip out a BSF-grappler with a contingency'd Antimagic field (set to go off when within 10ft of target wizard), Greater teleport him above the wizard in question, and let him do the dirty work. Not too hard...

This...would fall flat on its face at 100 points:
- AMF is personal-only; you need Sorc to also be the BSF (which can be done, mind you)
- You need to Teleport next to the mage. This is impossible due to Anticipate Teleport (Hours/Level, 3rd level spell, screws over adjacent teleportation)
- You still haven't bypassed his Contingency and the Immediate Action.
- If he wears e.g. Adamantine Cone, the AMF would be blocked anyways.
- We are not accounting for Contingent Spells, Celerity, any number of ways he has to actually mask him so you can't actually find him to TP next to him and such here. Sufficient to say, it's not happening; easily, anyways.

It's...pretty unlikely that such a simple approach would do anything but get you killed.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So obviously, the best way to be a wizard hunter is to be an optimized batman wizard. Also obviously, the better optimized party should win. So, assuming the mage hunter can't just be higher level I'd tip the scales by buffing them with non consumable guild resources.

Let the hunter hang out in a scry proof room in the guild hall from which he can do research send out messengers to hire muggles to gather intellegence attempt to scry the wizard every so often just in case.

When he's ready to confront the hunted wizard have him walk down a special hallway filled with powerful buff traps and ending in a door that sends the user to a location of their choosing.

[Vizzerdrix]

What about good ole' Minderape + Love's Pain? Has that been mentioned yet? :smallconfused:

[WinWin]

Seems a good a place as any to ask. Settle an argument for me please.

Contingencies vs. Disjunction.

Should a contingency, even a specifically worded one, be able to overcome being hit with a disjunction? What is the exact order of resolution.

It's a different Shrodinger's wizard debate at my table, causing more arguments and alignment and monks. Main problem seems to be the paradox of triggers removing conditions that trigger them, morseso with weasel words like 'targeted' and 'casting'.

[Radar]

Seems a good a place as any to ask. Settle an argument for me please.

Contingencies vs. Disjunction.

Should a contingency, even a specifically worded one, be able to overcome being hit with a disjunction? What is the exact order of resolution.

It's a different Shrodinger's wizard debate at my table, causing more arguments and alignment and monks. Main problem seems to be the paradox of triggers removing conditions that trigger them, morseso with weasel words like 'targeted' and 'casting'.
I think, that it's as with any immediate action: Contingency comes just before the Disjunction. You could cast Celerity or use Abrupt Jaunt or any other immediate action to defend yourself against Disjunction. It should work the same way as with all other spells.

[WinWin]

I think, that it's as with any immediate action: Contingency comes just before the Disjunction. You could cast Celerity or use Abrupt Jaunt or any other immediate action to defend yourself against Disjunction. It should work the same way as with all other spells.

That's the rub. My argument (which may be fallacious) is that in order for a contingency to function, the trigger conditions have to be met. If the trigger is a disjunction, then the disjunction has to be resolved before the contingency.

This is mainly theoretical. Only came up due to a loosely worded chain contingency that would teleport the PC wizard immediately outside of a hazardous or detrimental area or AoE unless they uttered a 'safe word'.

Now if a chain-tripper had moved within reach of the wizard, then the contingency would have been resolved after the trippers movement action. If that same chain-tripper had cast Black Tentacles at the wizard instead of moving, the spell would be resolved first, then the contingency would trigger.

That is how immediate actions work isn't it?

[NNescio]

Think of it as a readied action that is always readied at all times. Readied actions require a specific trigger, but they occur before the action which triggers it.

Contingency works similarly.

[marcielle]

At low levels, one thing a wizard can do is non-magically find out what spells an enemy wizard normally has(eg. bribing enemy's partners) and prepare accordingly.

At mid levels and up there is nearly no reliably take down a same level enemy wizard no matter what you are playing as. At high levels, 2 wizards can wipe entire plains and STILL not manage to kill each other.
The only surefire ways to kill lvl 20 and above wizards are convince Mystra to cut him off from all magic or get the Lady of Pain involved.
Of course, the use of such tactics is in itself playing with fire.

However, this entire thread assumes that a wizard will be prepared for a wizard. On any given day a wizard is most likely to have prepared for whatever type of monster he's most likely to encounter or to enact his world shattering schemes. An attack completely out of the blue might leave you with a 2-3 spell slot advantage. Assuming equal degrees of optimization for both wizards, a spontaneous aggresor will have a minor advantage and all other things being equal( rolls and battlefield conditions) 2-3 spells will probably be enough to ensure victory. Unless a wizard can change his spells on the fly. They can do so many crazy things, I'm not sure that they can't.

Does 'Contingency trigger: temporal anomaly that affects me' work?

Also, what happens when 2 Contingencies go up against each other?
For example: 2 wizards with contingency:enemy wizard within range - dispel contingency.

[Radar]

That is how immediate actions work isn't it?
Nope, immediate actions come into effect just before the trigger. For example I can use Celerity -> Orb of Ridiculous Metamagic Doom to fry the fighter that is swinging his sword at me before he lands a hit - immediate actions are that quick. Imagine as if the immediate action took much less time to complete, then the action it's reactionary to. It is a bit similar to action stacks in Magic: The Gathering and in the same way you can stack immediate actions (cast Celerity in response to your enemies Celerity). Fortunately you can usualy take only one immediate action per round.

In context of Contingency, it can be triggered on casting a spell (waving hands and mumbling) instead of the spell effect (fiery tentacles or whatever).

@marcielle: you assume, that a wizard will fight to the last spell slot, which is unlikely. If you are able to keep a wizard in place, he will lose. The problem is, it's immensly difficult to pull off. As for 2 Contingecies being triggered by the same event, there is nothing in the rules to solve such a problem AFAIK, so I'd just use Initiative to determine the order.

[mykelyk]

Nope, immediate actions come into effect just before the trigger. For example I can use Celerity -> Orb of Ridiculous Metamagic Doom to fry the fighter that is swinging his sword at me before he lands a hit - immediate actions are that quick. Imagine as if the immediate action took much less time to complete, then the action it's reactionary to. It is a bit similar to action stacks in Magic: The Gathering and in the same way you can stack immediate actions (cast Celerity in response to your enemies Celerity). Fortunately you can usualy take only one immediate action per round.

Nowhere in the rule is written that an immediate action has a trigger or can interrupt other creatures actions.
You cannot see what the enemy is doing and then trigger the action, you must instead do your celerity *after* someone else action (or as first ever if you cannot be flatfooted).

[KellKheraptis]

You can buff CL to the point where even an enemy in an AMF is a moot point...just saying.