What is the MADest class?

[Coidzor]

Is it Monk?

I was just discussing this with a friend and we realized we had no idea though we suspected that it was indeed the posterboy for MAD.

[MeeposFire]

I don't know the paladin might be worse.

Both want str.
Both want wis
Both want con

Monks want some dex

paladins wants cha a lot
they probably want int more as well since they only get 2 skill points.

[Dumbledore lives]

Monk or Paladin I'd say. Monk requires Wis, Str, Dex, Con; and Paladin requires Str, Con, Cha for Lay on Hands/Divine Grace, Wis for spell-casting. Either way they both require 4 stats at fairly high, and the 2 others being high certainly doesn't hurt.

[Flickerdart]

WotC generally got better with MADness after the core books - the most you really get to is three, on classes like Knight (Cha, Con, Str) or Swashbuckler (Int, Dex, Con).

[candycorn]

{table=header]Attribute | Monk? | Paladin?
Strength | Needed (Accuracy & Damage) | Needed (Accuracy and damage)
Dex | Needed (AC) | Not Important (10-12 is fine)
Con | Needed more (d8) | Needed, not quite as bad (d10)
Int | Useful, not critical | Useful, not critical
Wis | Needed (AC) | Small amount needed (12)
Cha | Not needed | Needed (Turn attempts, Saves, class options)[/table]

Note: Paladins can reduce their reliance on strength with Divine feats, can reduce their reliance on wisdom with noncasting ACF's.

This leaves them only slightly more MAD than a fighter. As written, they're close (though a monk needs high dex and wis more than a paladin, slightly higher con, higher str to make up for lower BAB... offset by Paladin needing more cha).

Reasoning: Monk Dex 14 and Wis 18 is equivalent to a paladin with Dex 12, Wis 12, and breastplate (for AC). That savings alone will get the paladin Cha 18, giving him a +5 ability bonus to will and reflex saves, and leave enough stat left over to boost Str up. Now, if the monk has Con 14 and Str 14...

The paladin will have equivalent HP with con 12.

So at level 3?

{table=Header]Stat | Monk | Paladin
Str | 14 | 14
Dex | 14 | 12
Con | 14 | 12
Int | 10 | 10
Wis | 18 | 12
Cha | 8 | 18[/table]

Melee attack:
Monk +4 for 1d6+2
Paladin +5 for 1d8+2 (longsword)

Ranged:
Monk +4 for 1d6+2 (javelin)
Paladin +5 for 1d6+2 (javelin)

HP:
Monk 3d8+6 (23 hp, max level 1, 50% roll thereafter)
Paladin 3d10+3 (24 hp)

AC:
Monk 16 (touch 16)
Paladin 18 (touch 11)
Draw (monk better vs touch, paladin better otherwise)

Saves:
Monk: 5/5/7
Paladin: 8/6/6

Movement:
Monk 40
Paladin 20

As is shown, on equal point buy, the paladin trumps in almost every area.

Note: this assumes the paladin uses a longsword, heavy steel shield, and breastplate armor (reasonable at level 3 WBL).

This also assumes a very generous 36 point buy for each character.

[Draz74]

It's a really subjective question, because people usually don't think it counts as "MAD" if the class doesn't need a high ability score to be "good," even if it has features based on that score.

But how powerful is "good"? It can get pretty subjective. And eventually, the question almost becomes just "which class sucks the most?" all over again.

I mean, a melee Cleric needs all the same ability scores high as the Paladin. But it's not considered MAD just because its spells can make up for whatever weaknesses it has.

So I don't know if the Ranger, for example, is really any less MAD than the Monk. People just don't pay attention to its MAD as much, because it causes less balance issues.

I actually think MAD is a good thing -- good game design on the authors' part -- as long as the class still ends up not sucking.

Classes that have trouble meeting their full potential without at least four high ability scores include:

Bard
Cleric
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Warblade
Swordsage
Dragon Shaman
Ninja
Hexblade
Favored Soul


As an example, here's Warblade dependencies.
STR -- primary melee, duh.
DEX -- primary melee without heavy armor proficiency. Also sometimes TWF.
CON -- primary melee, duh.
INT -- lots of class features.
WIS -- no special needs, but covering the poor Will save is of course nice. Still probably doesn't count towards MAD status.
CHA -- no special needs unless the Warblade wants to focus on Diplomacy and/or Intimidate.

[RndmNumGen]

The Lightning Warrior is the most MAD class. If you don't have at least 18's in all stats, don't even bother trying to play one.

[Firechanter]

Um. Wouldn't the Paladin want 14 Wis? 12 will bar him from getting level 3 and 4 spells.
I suppose 12 would be enough if he can get a Wis boosting property slapped onto an item, if the DM is lenient enough to allow artificial boosts to qualify for spells. As I understand it's kind of a grey zone in the rules. We've always interpreted ability minimums as _natural_ requirements, i.e. items don't allow you to cast a spell level that you normally couldn't cast.

On topic: my instinctive reaction was that Pally is more MAD than Monk due to the Cha necessity. But I guess that's offset by the lower Dex requirement, so probably the Monk is in fact even worse off.

[zimmerwald1915]

Um. Wouldn't the Paladin want 14 Wis? 12 will bar him from getting level 3 and 4 spells.
I suppose 12 would be enough if he can get a Wis boosting property slapped onto an item, if the DM is lenient enough to allow artificial boosts to qualify for spells. As I understand it's kind of a grey zone in the rules. We've always interpreted ability minimums as _natural_ requirements, i.e. items don't allow you to cast a spell level that you normally couldn't cast.

On topic: my instinctive reaction was that Pally is more MAD than Monk due to the Cha necessity. But I guess that's offset by the lower Dex requirement, so probably the Monk is in fact even worse off.
At third level the Paladin has no spell slots and thus no need for WIS as a casting stat. He only needs 13 WIS at level 11 to cast the third-level spells he gets at that level, and 14 WIS at level 14 to cast fourth-level spells. This can be achieved with ability score increases to WIS at levels 8 and 12. Thus the Paladin needs only 12 starting WIS if he wants to make full use of his spellcasting.

[Godskook]

Um. Wouldn't the Paladin want 14 Wis? 12 will bar him from getting level 3 and 4 spells.
I suppose 12 would be enough if he can get a Wis boosting property slapped onto an item, if the DM is lenient enough to allow artificial boosts to qualify for spells. As I understand it's kind of a grey zone in the rules. We've always interpreted ability minimums as _natural_ requirements, i.e. items don't allow you to cast a spell level that you normally couldn't cast.

That's a houserule, and if your group likes it, that's fine, but it isn't supported in the rules.

---------------------------------------------

It kinda depends on how you define 'dependent' for the purpose of this discussion. Swordsage depends on a *LOT* of scores. Wis/Dex/Str for damage, Wis/Dex for AC, Con for survivability(like all melee), Int for skills(6+int is tad dry for him, imho). He can safely dump Cha into the negatives, but almost every swordsage ever built wants at least mildly decent numbers in 5 of his stats. But otoh, you could totally survive a 36pb game with 8/18/14/8/16/8, despite the desire to have better str/int.

[Firechanter]

Isn't it kinda stupid to waste your rare and precious stat increases on a secondary attribute? Using point buy, it makes more sense to start with Wis 14 from the beginning - if you can start with at least 14 Cha at the same time - and put all the levelup boosters into Cha.

Then again, I find the 3.5 Paladin altogether unappealing seeing how they nerfed Divine Might and Divine Shield. Only time I've actually played a Pally was using 3.0 ruleset and there I quite enjoyed it. And there I started with Wis and Cha both at 14, if memory serves.

[Duskranger]

You all forget the favored soul, which is in my opinion the most MAD-class ever.

[Innis Cabal]

Or how about the Hex Blade? Charisma, Strength, Dexterity and Con.

[Godskook]

You all forget the favored soul, which is in my opinion the most MAD-class ever.

See, we're back to the whole 'what's dependency mean' issue. Favored Souls don't really require a higher Str/Dex/Con/Int than a cleric, and since they only require a Cha 19 to cast all their spells they can afford only a moderate base score there, which is what the cleric uses too. FSs are only *SLIGHTLY* more MAD than clerics are, and clerics are considered poster-boys for *SADness*. The happy medium is to call the DADs and be done with it.

[GoatBoy]

Dual-wielding Paladin with Combat Expertise.

[navar100]

Pathfinder put paladin spellcasting into Charisma, so now Monk is MADdest. Interstingly, because of the change to wildshape a druid can be MAD if the player likes to rely on wildshaping to fight in melee. It's not too bad since you do get buffed a bit wildshaping, on par with the dedicated warrior classes, but you're not going to get the 22+ strength unless you start with high strength in the first place. A wildshaping reliant fighting druid would want at least a 14 Strength. Favored class bonus into hit points allows for only needing 12 Constitution minimum, but Dex at 14 is also important.

[Duskranger]

Pathfinder put paladin spellcasting into Charisma, so now Monk is MADdest. Interstingly, because of the change to wildshape a druid can be MAD if the player likes to rely on wildshaping to fight in melee. It's not too bad since you do get buffed a bit wildshaping, on par with the dedicated warrior classes, but you're not going to get the 22+ strength unless you start with high strength in the first place. A wildshaping reliant fighting druid would want at least a 14 Strength. Favored class bonus into hit points allows for only needing 12 Constitution minimum, but Dex at 14 is also important.

A wildshaping druid gets the dex, str and con of the animal he shapes into. You mean the shapeshifting druid from the PHB prolly

[Firechanter]

I think he's talking about the Pathfinder Druid, which iirc only gets his own physical stats modified during Wildshape, not replaced. I.e. a particular animal form might get you +4 Strength, applied to your own score, instead of a flat 22 even if your natural score is 8.

[Duskranger]

I think he's talking about the Pathfinder Druid, which iirc only gets his own physical stats modified during Wildshape, not replaced. I.e. a particular animal form might get you +4 Strength, applied to your own score, instead of a flat 22 even if your natural score is 8.

That's also with the shapeshifting druid in the PHBII that one gets a flat enhancement bonus to stats. But since he can't cast in animalform wis is not as important. dex is though :P

[Urpriest]

The 3.0 Generalist Psion. If your character's goal is to manifest ninth level powers from every discipline, you need 19 in all stats.

[Solaris]

I think he's talking about the Pathfinder Druid, which iirc only gets his own physical stats modified during Wildshape, not replaced. I.e. a particular animal form might get you +4 Strength, applied to your own score, instead of a flat 22 even if your natural score is 8.

Oh, they did? It's always neat to see a sensible house-rule make it into print.

[ericgrau]

(long post)

Uh, wis really should be tied with dex if it's for AC, and strength and con should be before dex. Likewise strength before charisma. Because hitting things all the time is better than hitting things on a smite (the benefit is equal), and a cloak of resistance is cheaper and more effective than a cloak of charisma on saves. And offense is usually better than defense, unless you're in a crazy paranoid save-filled campaign. You can reduce the impact with cha to AB and wis to AB, but now we need to determine how splatty the builds get. Heck deepwarden could let con replace dex.

It's hard to determine MAD because you need to figure out the difference between want and need. There's also a lot of apples and oranges type issues if you want to compare such different classes. I mean as soon as the monk grabs the paladin the fight is over because even though the paladin wins more grapple checks he doesn't deal any notable damage in a grapple. Then wis/cha/dex won't matter either. And escaping eats actions and leaves you open to re-grapple making it often worse than staying in the grapple. But against huge beasties or multiple foes a party might want someone with a sword instead. Etc., etc.

Comparing a paladin to a barbarian might be simpler. Then you want the same strength, same con, and at least a 14 cha to kinda keep up with rage and at least a 12 wis for spells. Both may be raised later with items. And if you can manage a higher than 14 for your third stat and at least a 12 for your 4th stat it's hard to say which class is better, but at some point I think the paladin pulls ahead if you have very high stats across the board.

[Draz74]

You all forget the favored soul, which is in my opinion the most MAD-class ever.
Good point. I'll add it to my list.

See, we're back to the whole 'what's dependency mean' issue. Favored Souls don't really require a higher Str/Dex/Con/Int than a cleric, and since they only require a Cha 19 to cast all their spells they can afford only a moderate base score there, which is what the cleric uses too. FSs are only *SLIGHTLY* more MAD than clerics are, and clerics are considered poster-boys for *SADness*.
Favored Souls need Dexterity more than Clerics, too, since they don't get heavy armor proficiency (and they're supposed to grow wings and fly). Arguably Strength is more important, too, since FS's traditionally need to focus more on melee than Clerics (free Weapon Specialization, and worse spellcasting?).

And as I said in my post, Clerics are actually quite MAD themselves. People just ignore that -- to the point of thinking of them as SAD -- because their base power level is so high anyway. (Wizard, Sorcerer, and Druid are much more SAD than Cleric ... although even they need CON, so DAD would be a slightly more accurate term.)


Or how about the Hex Blade? Charisma, Strength, Dexterity and Con.
Hmmm, I guess I'll add it to my list, although I'm not sure it's really any worse than other borderline cases like Swashbuckler. (Which is greater, a Swashbuckler's need for Strength, or a Hexblade's need for Dexterity?)

[Taelas]

Okay, 'dependent' means 'class must have this to function'. It does not mean 'is good to have' or 'will be weaker without it'.

Monks cannot function (i.e. do the job they are supposed to do) without high scores in Strength, Wisdom and Constitution. They are only dependent on these three scores. They also benefit greatly from Dex.

Paladins cannot function without high scores in Str and Cha. Most of the paladin's abilities depend on Cha, just as most of the monk's depend on Wis, and they are primary melee combatants, making Str a priority. Constitution is less of a requirement than it is for the monk (higher base hit die), but close enough to be a necessity as well.

Clerics require Wisdom. They do not require anything else, though they benefit greatly from any other score (with Dex providing the least, followed by Int).

Druids require Wisdom, but benefit from all other scores. Cha and Int are the least important, unless the druid is focused on Wild Shape, in which case it's Str and Dex.

All the other classes depend either on only one score or two.

[raxies94]

If you want to play a melee oriented favored soul, it's pretty bad. Spellcasting depends on two different scores, then you have the usual melee stat problems as well.

[Greenish]

Monks cannot function (i.e. do the job they are supposed to do) without high scores in Strength, Wisdom and Constitution.Eh, Wisdom doesn't fuel that many abilities. AC, Quivering Palm, Stunning Fist if you take it.

[dspeyer]

Monks don't need int that badly. They get 4+int skills, and all they conceptually need are tumble and balance. Paladins get only 2+int, and conceptually need ride. This means an int -1 monk can still take an optional skill for flexibility, but an int -1 paladin can't even take concentration to cast defensively.

[Taelas]

Eh, Wisdom doesn't fuel that many abilities. AC, Quivering Palm, Stunning Fist if you take it.

Maybe not many, but at least one of them is critical, as it essentially replaces armor.

[ericgrau]

^ Still no better than dex and pretty far down the list. Generally you can't really replace armor regardless as a monk. It's just kinda nice to have. Mostly for touch AC. In which case you only "need" roughly 10 + 1/2 level + 3rd or 4th most important ability score to keep up. With help from magic items there's no need to go overboard.


Okay, 'dependent' means 'class must have this to function'. It does not mean 'is good to have' or 'will be weaker without it'.

Well paladins, monks and most other melee only need strength and constitution. But without charisma a paladin might as well play another class. And multiple scores are nice to have for both. All 6 to some extent for paladins, and all but cha for monks. But pallies need only moderate scores in half of those whereas the sky's the limit for a lot of the monk ones.

[SPoD]

Paladins cannot function without high scores in Str and Cha. Most of the paladin's abilities depend on Cha, just as most of the monk's depend on Wis, and they are primary melee combatants, making Str a priority. Constitution is less of a requirement than it is for the monk (higher base hit die), but close enough to be a necessity as well.

I think when judging classes, if a class has spellcasting based on that stat, then they are dependent on that stat. So core paladins need Wisdom. They don't need it super-high, but they literally need it to function fully as designed; they cannot cast their spells if they don't have it.

Whether one determines a paladin's spells to be an important part of their conceptual role or not, as written, the paladin cannot access all class abilities without at least a 14. Technically, you can play a paladin with a 10 Str and a 10 Con and still gain access to every class function, but not if you play with a 10 Wisdom.

[Greenish]

Maybe not many, but at least one of them is critical, as it essentially replaces armor.Eh, it won't stand up to the comparison anyhow, and Dex also adds to AC.

Of course, if you jump through the hoops to have the Wis to AC even in armour… Nah, still not that hot.

[Taelas]

^ Still no better than dex and pretty far down the list. Generally you can't really replace armor regardless as a monk. It's just kinda nice to have. Mostly for touch AC. In which case you only "need" roughly 10 + 1/2 level + 3rd or 4th most important ability score to keep up. With help from magic items there's no need to go overboard.
Yes, you can replace armor, as a matter of fact. Bracers of armor does for the enhancement bonus, while the Wis bonus replaces the actual armor.

Wis is better than Dex because other monk abilities depend on Wis.


Well paladins, monks and most other melee only need strength and constitution. But without charisma a paladin might as well play another class. And multiple scores are nice to have for both. All 6 to some extent for paladins, and all but cha for monks. But pallies need only moderate scores in half of those whereas the sky's the limit for a lot of the monk ones.
No. You misunderstand. It needs those stats to perform the class' intended role.



I think when judging classes, if a class has spellcasting based on that stat, then they are dependent on that stat. So core paladins need Wisdom. They don't need it super-high, but they literally need it to function fully as designed; they cannot cast their spells if they don't have it.
The paladin is not a primary caster. I agree that a small amount of Wisdom is necessary, but it can be accomplished with as little as 12 and a periapt of wisdom +2.


Whether one determines a paladin's spells to be an important part of their conceptual role or not, as written, the paladin cannot access all class abilities without at least a 14. Technically, you can play a paladin with a 10 Str and a 10 Con and still gain access to every class function, but not if you play with a 10 Wisdom.
Yes, you can -- you would simply need a way to increase your Wisdom score. Wisdom is an important stat, but I do not consider it essential. For comparison's sake, I also do not consider Dex essential to a monk, or Con essential to a wizard.


Eh, it won't stand up to the comparison anyhow, and Dex also adds to AC.

Of course, if you jump through the hoops to have the Wis to AC even in armour… Nah, still not that hot.

It's still better than Dex.

[Tvtyrant]

Shadowcaster/Cleric/MT. Has to have high Cha, Wis, and Int. Also probably needs Con, and would benefit from Dex.

[Greenish]

No. You misunderstand. It needs those stats to perform the class' intended role.What is monk's intended role? :smallconfused:


It's still better than Dex.Questionable. Initiative is pretty nice, as is Evasion and Dex based skills (not that Wis based skills would be bad, of course).

For AC, either will work.

[Geigan]

The maddest class is the Frenzied Berserker. Those guys seriously need some anger management or a chill pill or something.

Maybe Ur-Priest's too, those guys are just hate hate hate all the time. Can't be good for their blood pressure.

[raxies94]

The maddest class is the Frenzied Berserker. Those guys seriously need some anger management or a chill pill or something.

Maybe Ur-Priest's too, those guys are just hate hate hate all the time. Can't be good for their blood pressure.

...I see what you did there. Well played.

[Thurbane]

If you're playing gestalt, then I think the prize has to go to Monk//Warmage.

Assuming no Kung Fu Genius or Incarnadine Monk, you need literally EVERY stat -

STR: unarmed to hit and damage
DEX: ranged attack spells and AC
CON: HP and concentration checks (everyone needs CON, really)
INT: Warmage Edge & skills
WIS: AC, stunning fist DC etc.
CHA: Spell DC, max spell level

[Urpriest]

The maddest class is the Frenzied Berserker. Those guys seriously need some anger management or a chill pill or something.

Maybe Ur-Priest's too, those guys are just hate hate hate all the time. Can't be good for their blood pressure.

Bah! We aren't hateful! Now bow before my Blasphemy, despicable worm!

Anyway, a Sacriligeous Fist Ur-Priest is fairly MAD too. Needs Dex for the no-armor thing, Con and Str like most melee, Wis for tasty tasty 9ths, Cha to keep the DM from choking you on your own nightsticks, and Int to get enough skills to enter the damn(ed) class in the first place.

[Taelas]

What is monk's intended role? :smallconfused:
That's a very good question. :smallamused: Front-line combatant and minor skirmisher, is my best guess. But the fact that WotC was not sure about the monk's intended role does not invalidate my point.


Questionable. Initiative is pretty nice, as is Evasion and Dex based skills (not that Wis based skills would be bad, of course).
Nice, but not required for the intended role, save perhaps for Evasion... in my estimation, at least.


For AC, either will work.
Certainly, and it is the most important aspect of either, save perhaps for skills (where Dexterity probably wins out, given that more skills are based on it). But monks are not very good skill monkeys in the first place, and Wisdom helps in combat more than Dexterity does (through Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm), thus it is the more important ability.

[TroubleBrewing]

That's a very good question. :smallamused: Front-line combatant and minor skirmisher, is my best guess.

A front-line combatant needs AC, and Monks can't wear anything above light armor. They get Wis to AC, but that isn't going to hold up very long. Having no Dex score means an AC in the 'teens, which, as a front-line melee combatant, means they'll be a smear on the pavement.

Not to mention all of the skills keyed to Dex.


But monks are not very good skill monkeys in the first place, and Wisdom helps in combat more than Dexterity does (through Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm), thus it is the more important ability.

Sure, Wisdom helps more. But Con helps more than Wis, and Str more than Con, so is Strength the only score they need? Of course not.

Monks need Str, Dex, Con, and Wis.

[Talya]

I think when judging classes, if a class has spellcasting based on that stat, then they are dependent on that stat. So core paladins need Wisdom. They don't need it super-high, but they literally need it to function fully as designed; they cannot cast their spells if they don't have it.

Whether one determines a paladin's spells to be an important part of their conceptual role or not, as written, the paladin cannot access all class abilities without at least a 14. Technically, you can play a paladin with a 10 Str and a 10 Con and still gain access to every class function, but not if you play with a 10 Wisdom.

I would take that a step further and argue that any class that gets "0" spells at a particular level needs a casting stat that grants at least +1 for spells of that level to function as designed.


I always would take an ACF that lets paladins trade away spellcasting if playing a paladin, every time. To make it useful at all, you need to focus too many resources on it, and then it's still crappy spellcasting.

[Lord.Sorasen]

That's a very good question. :smallamused: Front-line combatant and minor skirmisher, is my best guess. But the fact that WotC was not sure about the monk's intended role does not invalidate my point.

I always thought the monk screamed nonlethal ninja. Wisdom to armor class so that you don't need armor and thus can perform without armor check penalties and could therefor take full advantage of movement speed boosts, stunning fist so that you could avoid fighting and nonlethal fists in case, the ability to fight without a weapon or armor, slow fall for daring escapes... It seems the only thing that doesn't fit in is that whole flurry thing. I always figured the error in monk to be that D&D 3.5 makes heavy damage dealing the only real game for non-magic characters.


If you're playing gestalt, then I think the prize has to go to Monk//Warmage.

Assuming no Kung Fu Genius or Incarnadine Monk, you need literally EVERY stat -

STR: unarmed to hit and damage
DEX: ranged attack spells and AC
CON: HP and concentration checks (everyone needs CON, really)
INT: Warmage Edge & skills
WIS: AC, stunning fist DC etc.
CHA: Spell DC, max spell level

Fun fact: In my first D&D 3.5 game ever I played a sorcerer. I got mad at my inability to take a hit without dying, so I took a level of... monk. So for most of the campaign I was a sorcerer/monk. With the exception of that "warmage edge" thing, I played this.

[Taelas]

A front-line combatant needs AC, and Monks can't wear anything above light armor. They get Wis to AC, but that isn't going to hold up very long. Having no Dex score means an AC in the 'teens, which, as a front-line melee combatant, means they'll be a smear on the pavement.
That's non-sense. Warrior-classes that can wear armor get 4-6 AC more at most (and an additional +2 with a shield) -- while that is a significant difference, it is hardly enough to warrant the idea that they will be 'a smear on the pavement'.

Also, AC increases at so slow a rate compared to attack bonuses that at higher levels, the difference becomes inconsequential.




Not to mention all of the skills keyed to Dex.
While not to be neglected, it is hardly essential to the class.


Sure, Wisdom helps more. But Con helps more than Wis, and Str more than Con, so is Strength the only score they need? Of course not.
I have an actual criteria for what the class is dependent on. Namely, it needs to benefit their primary role, as indicated by their class abilities and general theme. The monk has three class abilities which depend on Wis, and none that depend on Dex -- except perhaps Evasion, which really depends on Reflex saves, which can be increased in other ways. They are a front-line combatant, as their primary weapon is unarmed strike (or monk weapons, only a few of which are ranged). (Yes, this means that the priority can change depending on what direction you wish to take the class in -- for instance, if you want to throw shuriken, Dex replaces Str.)


Monks need Str, Dex, Con, and Wis.
No. They benefit greatly from Dex, but they only need Str, Con, and Wis.

[TroubleBrewing]

That's non-sense. Warrior-classes that can wear armor get 4-6 AC more at most (and an additional +2 with a shield) -- while that is a significant difference, it is hardly enough to warrant the idea that they will be 'a smear on the pavement'.

6-8 AC is a huge difference! It's a 30-40% difference in terms of rolling on a d20. If a baddie needs an 18 to hit the guy with a shield and only a 10 to hit the guy slapping him ineffectually with his bare hands, the second guy is a dead man.

As to your example of Dex replacing Str if the monk opts for thrown weapons: Is he just going to deal the d4 (dagger) or d6 (javelin) for the weapon, or is he going to want a source of bonus damage on top of that? He still needs Str to do any meaningful damage in combat. Even more so with thrown weapons, as he isn't benefiting from the Unarmed Strike damage (crappy as it is).

Also, more than 1/4 of their skills are keyed to Dex. Seems like you might want to have Dex.

[Talya]

No. They benefit greatly from Dex, but they only need Str, Con, and Wis.

We're talking monk, here, yes? Why are you valuing wisdom that highly over dexterity? Smart way to build a monk on a point buy is to equalize dexterity and wisdom to get the most armor class for the fewest buy points. So rather than going 10 dex and 18 wis, go 14 dex, and 14 wis. Same AC, but it cost you only 12 points instead of 18.

-Nevermind that to merely equal the armor class of an equivalent fighter (and they really should be harder to hit than a fighter in order to do their job) they need 18 dex and 20 wis. (for +9AC to equal the fighter's 12 dex + full plate.)

[TroubleBrewing]

We're talking monk, here, yes?

Unfortunately.

[Taelas]

We're talking monk, here, yes? Why are you valuing wisdom that highly over dexterity? Smart way to build a monk on a point buy is to equalize dexterity and wisdom to get the most armor class for the fewest buy points. So rather than going 10 dex and 18 wis, go 14 dex, and 14 wis. Same AC, but it cost you only 12 points instead of 18.


Not everyone uses point buy. I use point-distribution, where each increase is valued at just one point, regardless of the score.

Yes, in a point-buy, it's smarter to go 14-14 instead of 10-18. But you get more out of Wisdom than Dexterity. In PD or through rolling, it is better to put the higher stat in Wis, all else being equal.

This is not limited simply to Wis and Dex. It is also more favorable to put 14s in Str and Con, despite both stats being more important than Wis and Dex. This is because of the nature of point-buy, not because of the monk class.



-Nevermind that to merely equal the armor class of an equivalent fighter (and they really should be harder to hit than a fighter in order to do their job) they need 18 dex and 20 wis. (for +9AC to equal the fighter's 12 dex + full plate.)
Not entirely correct. For the 1.5k gold for a full plate, a monk can get bracers of armor +1 (and have money left over), for example.


6-8 AC is a huge difference! It's a 30-40% difference in terms of rolling on a d20.
Yes, I acknowledge it's a significant difference.


If a baddie needs an 18 to hit the guy with a shield and only a 10 to hit the guy slapping him ineffectually with his bare hands, the second guy is a dead man.
The guy with the shield (unless he has managed to get hold of an animated shield) sacrifices significant offensive power to get that extra armor, as well as mobility. (The monk can even get an animated shield himself--while the animated quality states that you take any penalties associated with shield use, the AC Bonus for monks state they lose it while carrying a shield--not while using it.) The difference is also unlikely to be quite that large, unless the character has rolled very poorly or has a very unfavorable PB-total. 14 Wis, 14 Dex and bracers of armor +1 versus 14 Dex and plate armor is a difference of +4 AC, +6 if he uses a shield.


As to your example of Dex replacing Str if the monk opts for thrown weapons: Is he just going to deal the d4 (dagger) or d6 (javelin) for the weapon, or is he going to want a source of bonus damage on top of that? He still needs Str to do any meaningful damage in combat. Even more so with thrown weapons, as he isn't benefiting from the Unarmed Strike damage (crappy as it is).
Throwing weapons is a sub-par choice without some form of precision damage. This is not restricted to monks. Strength is a very good thing to have when using throwing weapons, but it is more essential to hit. It is also not a hard rule; shifting circumstances can change the priority again.


Also, more than 1/4 of their skills are keyed to Dex. Seems like you might want to have Dex.
I never said otherwise. I simply said Wis is more important.

[Draz74]

Yes, in a point-buy, it's smarter to go 14-14 instead of 10-18. But you get more out of Wisdom than Dexterity. In PD or through rolling, it is better to put the higher stat in Wis, all else being equal.

Unless your Monk is unusually focused on Stunning Fist, I'd say he gets more out of Dexterity than out of Wisdom. Initiative, Tumble skill ...

[JaronK]

I'll throw in a vote for the CAdv Ninja. Wis powers their Ki abilities and AC, but they're a skillmonkey class that needs Dex and Int... and without Con, they're FAR too flimsy to survive in combat at all. I think they're worse than Monks that way. Str and Cha are the only things they can keep low, but since Sudden Strike is a bit hard to trigger a low Str score can hurt a bit. Since they lack UMD and other decent Charisma skills, at least they can dump that stat fully.

JaronK

[Veyr]

CAdv Ninja is a hideous, hideous class. I just love how, on top of all the other crap piled on that class, they decided to halve its Ki pool.

[Hirax]

Monks don't really need dex or wisdom all that much. You can buy them up to high levels if you want, but you're still going to get hit all the time even if you do, so frankly you may as well not go above 12.