Bards?

[Rhaegar14]

My friend wants to play a Bard in our upcoming campaign. We're starting at level 1, so I don't need much just yet, but my main issue is that I have absolutely no idea how to build one of them effectively -- and I'm the resident "expert." He has his heart set on a Lupin, so I'm really just looking for good spells and feats for the first couple levels.

Help me out, playground?

[Hirax]

Words of creation is pretty awesome if you don't mind being exalted.

edit: oops, that can't be taken 'til later. Dragonfire inspiration can also be pretty good though, you can throttle it up to get all your allies to be doing lots of extra damage.

[Coidzor]

Well, if you have Eberron available, the feat song of the heart is good, as is inspirational boost (1st level, Spell Compendium 124[?]). Both increase Inspire Courage benefits by +1.

If Tome of Battle is on the table, one could combine Bard 3-4 with Warblade or Crusader 16-17 with the Song of the White Raven feat

What sources are on the table?

[Heatwizard]

If this bard is destined for the frontlines, put his perform ranks in Sing or Dance so he can keep his hands free. Perform (dance) has the added side effect of letting you take Snowflake Wardance (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2671-snowflake-wardance.html), which gives you CHA to hit for X rounds, where X is your Dance ranks.

[Divide by Zero]

If this bard is destined for the frontlines, put his perform ranks in Sing or Dance so he can keep his hands free. Perform (dance) has the added side effect of letting you take Snowflake Wardance (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2671-snowflake-wardance.html), which gives you CHA to hit for X rounds, where X is your Dance ranks.

Plus a dancing melee bard is pretty badass anyway.

[Flickerdart]

Lupin doesn't really add anything to Bard, so let's ignore that part. Monstrous Humanoid rules out some buffs, which may or may not become relevant.

Bards can come in many flavours. There's the Bard that hits people with swords until they die, who takes stuff like Snowflake Wardance. There's the Bard who (ab)uses Inspire Courage, with spells like Harmonize and Inspirational Boost, and feats like Words of Creation, Song of the Heart and Dragonfire Inspiration. Bards have some cool ACFs, like Inspire Awe from Draconomicon, which can be used to debuff the enemy instead of buffing allies.
Masterwork instruments from Complete Adventurer help trick out Inspire Courage, and there's a bunch of stuff in the MIC (like Crystal Echoblades and the Badge of Courage).

[Rhaegar14]

Sourcebooks are basically anything goes, but let's not get too cheesy. Still, expert was in quotes for a reason -- I don't know exactly where everything is, so help me out with locations for feats and all.

[Heatwizard]

Well, what's the party look like/in need of? A caster bard is different from a fighter bard is different from etc.

[Rhaegar14]

We have an Elf Paladin of Freedom going the Champion of Corellon route, a Human Cleric (Protection and Air or Dragon domains), a Spellscale Sorcerer eventually heading for Jade Phoenix Mage, and a Human Wu Jen. Other than out-of-combat concerns, all of our bases are essentially covered. We need the Bard to be party "face" because it's a high-rp, political-intrigue-filled campaign.

[Amnestic]

Obligatory Handbooks:
Inspire Courage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization)
Bard's in general (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)

[Heatwizard]

In the Spell Compendium, Improvisation is a first level Bard spell that gives you a bonus to skill checks equal to half your caster level. Songbird(cantrip) gives you +1 to a Cha check after performing. Serene Visage(1st) gives you +(half your caster level) to Bluff. Unluck(3rd) can mess with people you want to see take a social spill. Sirine's Grace gives you a bonus to Cha, Voice of the Dragon gives you +10 to social skills. (both 4th)

PHB, Glibness lets you lie like a rug, but you probably already knew that. Greater/Heroism also buffs skill checks(and attack rolls, useful all the time!). Charm Person, Disguise/Alter/etc Self, Suggestion if you're looking to get your subterfuge on.

Marshal 1(miniatures handbook) gives you Skill Focus(Diplomacy) for free, and lets you toss some buffs around passively, if you're in the mood for a dip.

Five ranks in Knowledge(nobility), Bluff, and Sense Motive all give you +2 synergy bonuses to Diplomacy.

[Amnestic]

In the Spell Compendium, Improvisation is a first level Bard spell that gives you a bonus to skill checks equal to half your caster level. Songbird(cantrip) gives you +1 to a Cha check after performing. Serene Visage(1st) gives you +(half your caster level) to Bluff. Unluck(3rd) can mess with people you want to see take a social spill. Sirine's Grace gives you a bonus to Cha, Voice of the Dragon gives you +10 to social skills. (both 4th)

PHB, Glibness lets you lie like a rug, but you probably already knew that. Greater/Heroism also buffs skill checks(and attack rolls, useful all the time!). Charm Person, Disguise/Alter/etc Self, Suggestion if you're looking to get your subterfuge on.

Marshal 1(miniatures handbook) gives you Skill Focus(Diplomacy) for free, and lets you toss some buffs around passively, if you're in the mood for a dip.

Five ranks in Knowledge(nobility) will get you a +2 synergy bonus to diplomacy. So will five Bluff ranks, for that matter.

Dragonfire Adept 1 gets you a Least Invocation which you can use on Beguiling Influence for +6 Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate for 24 hours. Untyped too.

[NecroRick]

As a 'party buffer' class, instead of Bard, consider taking a first level Dragon Shaman.

Then you don't have to waste a turn on the 'song and dance routine'.

Also, a lot of the silliness falls off.

[Greenish]

As a 'party buffer' class, instead of Bard, consider taking a first level Dragon Shaman.

Then you don't have to waste a turn on the 'song and dance routine'.

Also, a lot of the silliness falls off.Yeah, if you want to suck and be lame, do this. :smalltongue:


If you want to be made of concentrated awesomeness, be a bard. Rock out.

[Heatwizard]

As a 'party buffer' class, instead of Bard, consider taking a first level Dragon Shaman.

Then you don't have to waste a turn on the 'song and dance routine'.

Also, a lot of the silliness falls off.

Ladies, look at your skill monkey. Now, back to me. Now, back to your skill monkey. Now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me. But if he stopped using pansy classes for pansies and started rocking out as a class feature, he could be cool like me. Look down, where are you? Back up. You're in a fight, with the Bard your skill monkey could rock like. What's in your hand? I have it. It's +8 to attack for that thing you like.(winning) Look again. The bonus is now 8d6 sonic damage. Anything is possible when you write poetry mid-combat and stop fighting like an unimaginative boor.

I'm on a horse.

[watchwood]

There's also some good enemy debuffs using your Bard Song ability - Haunting Melody form the Eberon ruleset, and there's some other good ones floating around as well.

[Talya]

Ladies, look at your skill monkey. Now, back to me. Now, back to your skill monkey. Now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me. But if he stopped using pansy classes for pansies and started rocking out as a class feature, he could be cool like me. Look down, where are you? Back up. You're in a fight, with the Bard your skill monkey could rock like. What's in your hand? I have it. It's +8 to attack for that thing you like.(winning) Look again. The bonus is now 8d6 sonic damage. Anything is possible when you write poetry mid-combat and stop fighting like an unimaginative boor.

I'm on a horse.


You, sir, are my new hero. Mind if I sig that?

[NecroRick]

Ladies, look at your skill monkey. Now, back to me. Now, back to your skill monkey. Now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me. But if he stopped using pansy classes for pansies and started rocking out as a class feature, he could be cool like me. Look down, where are you? Back up. You're in a fight, with the Bard your skill monkey could rock like. What's in your hand? I have it. It's +8 to attack for that thing you like.(winning) Look again. The bonus is now 8d6 sonic damage. Anything is possible when you write poetry mid-combat and stop fighting like an unimaginative boor.

I'm on a horse.

Hit Points.


I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered,
striking his foot with mighty force against a low level Bard, till he
rebounded from it — “Thus I refute thee.”

[Amnestic]

I'm on a horse.

*snicker* I'm suffering from severe sleep deprivation but damn did I crack a grin at this. Thanks :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Hit Points.Ah, the last refuge of the incompetent warriors: "I can take the hits. Ouch! I can take the hits. Ouch, that really hurts! But I can take it!"

…

…

*death gurgle*



Seriously, what's going to help you more, a small handful of hitpoints, or an actually useful class? :smalltongue:

[Zaq]

Hit Points.

And if you have an effective buffer in your party, you won't need to worry about the things that can reduce your hit points, because they will be too dead to hurt you.

Not to mention that a canny bard has ways to not worry about getting hit in the first place, of course.

[Coidzor]

We have an Elf Paladin of Freedom going the Champion of Corellon route, a Human Cleric (Protection and Air or Dragon domains), a Spellscale Sorcerer eventually heading for Jade Phoenix Mage, and a Human Wu Jen. Other than out-of-combat concerns, all of our bases are essentially covered. We need the Bard to be party "face" because it's a high-rp, political-intrigue-filled campaign.

Well, you have two guys who definitely will want to be hitting things and a Cleric who probably will, so that'd be 3 individuals benefiting from IC, 4 if the Bard goes for melee/ranged support (even regular manyshot benefits from it, IIRC) in addition to IC. Since it's intrigue and RP heavy, spells seem like they might be more valuable though.

What levels you guys going to be dealing with, most likely? Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane doesn't open up until level 11 and other than them, Lyric Thaumaturge (Complete Mage) is the only real option for buffing Bardic casting, IIRC. Fochlucan Lyrist (Complete Adventurer) has similar restrictions as well, for adding a bit of druid casting in addition to the bard. Green Whisperer from Dragon Magazine 311 makes adding some druid casting on possible after level 5 though.

[Talya]

One nice thing about bard, is if built for it, bard 20 is just as viable as sublime chord or lyric thaumaturge. Also, Bard/Paladin with Devoted performer can be surprisingly good if you trick out charisma to max and take the right feats.

[Coidzor]

One nice thing about bard, is if built for it, bard 20 is just as viable as sublime chord or lyric thaumaturge. Also, Bard/Paladin with Devoted performer can be surprisingly good if you trick out charisma to max and take the right feats.

In general, maybe, I've never really investigated the combination of Bard and Paladin, but in this case taking Paladin levels seems like it'd be risky due to the lack of skills to support taking the Party Face role with the various skills necessary to support that in an intrigue-oriented game.


Dragonfire Adept 1 gets you a Least Invocation which you can use on Beguiling Influence for +6 Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate for 24 hours. Untyped too.

Doesn't it net Dragontouched as a bonus feat so Dragonfire Inspiration is that easier to grab for non-dragonblooded bards?

[Shade Kerrin]

In general, maybe, I've never really investigated the combination of Bard and Paladin, but in this case taking Paladin levels seems like it'd be risky due to the lack of skills to support taking the Party Face role with the various skills necessary to support that in an intrigue-oriented game.

The simple strength behind the Bard/Paladin: Have a look at the stat X to Y thread, specifically Charisma. Count how many of the entries are for Bards or Paladins. Play a Bardadin, and you are adding charisma to just about everything. In many cases twice.

[Amnestic]

Doesn't it net Dragontouched as a bonus feat so Dragonfire Inspiration is that easier to grab for non-dragonblooded bards?

Also true! I'd normally just go Silverbrow Human and save myself the dip, but as far as one level dips go, DFA can offer a decent amount to Bards.

[Heatwizard]

Hit Points.

The Bard's not your tank. But hey, Bard can even fix that problem: Summon Monster. Or social skills, and local NPCs.

[Shade Kerrin]

The Bard's not your tank. But hey, Bard can even fix that problem: Summon Monster. Or social skills, and local NPCs.

On a more direct note:
Does their 8th level song not provide temporary HP, though?
Does the Virtuoso PrC not provide the Con boost of Rage?
And for healing itself, can they not exchange Inspire for the ability to Superboost any healing spells cast by allies (including self)?

[Heatwizard]

And for healing itself, can they not exchange Inspire for the ability to Superboost any healing spells cast by allies (including self)?

Healing Hymn? That swaps out for Fascinate.

[Shade Kerrin]

Ah yes, I knew it swapped something normally considered vital, just couldn't remember which and assumed

Fascinate is more situational than Inspire, though, so net gain for me.

[Amnestic]

Ah yes, I knew it swapped something normally considered vital, just couldn't remember which.

Fascinate is more situational than Inspire, though, so net gain for me.

You can then trade (Mass) Suggestion for a couple of Eberron Music feats from the Eberron Campaign Setting ACF ;>