Creating a very low magic pathfinder.

[Relecs]

Hey All,

I'm hoping to create and run a very low magic pathfinder campaign setting. I want to do this because I feel that low magic lends itself well to epic fantasy. Anyways the purpose for this post is that I am going to be using this space to formulate my thoughts on rule, class, etc. variations and I would appreciate it if the Giants community would assist me through suggesting variations, directing me to similar projects to compare, and helping to fully develop my ideas on this subject.

I think in order to start this off it's important to define how I view very low magic.


Magic is very rare, this means that spell casting is the stuff of myth and legend
Magic items of even the most basic variety are almost artifact level rarity (ie they cannot be bought, are not found on the corpse of a basic monster and are the goals of entire adventure chains)
Spell casting is either unavailable to player characters or extremely restricted, possibly have a series of feats related to being a blood descendant of a legendary wizard and this gives you access to very basic casting
When magic is seen it is viewed as miraculous or terrifying in even its most basic forms. Someone who can created light from nothing is someone to be feared or in awe of, someone who can can a bolt of lighting down is to be worshiped or cowered in front of.


In order for this to work i see a few major complications, healing (adventures may become bogged down by resting if the party has no way to recover), the power of monsters (groups become much more difficult without area of effect spells, damage reduction is much harder to overcome, the saves on abilities are much harder to resist), and of course pc classes, spell-casters are unplayable in this type of campaign setting and partial spell-casters need to be readjusted in order to fit in the setting.

Hope you'll let me know your thoughts, I'll be keeping this post up to date with my work on this topic

thanks

Relecs

[Seerow]

If you're going this route, consider giving all of your players the flat + bonuses from vow of poverty for free.

That is give them the appropriate +to hit/damage, AC (except the base +4 exalted bonus which represents not being able to wear armor, which I presume your PCs will have. The extra bonus after the initial +4, 1 per 3 levels or whatever should be granted to any armor and shields worn), and stats.

This basically makes it so your party's stats keep up with where they're supposed to be, without giving them magic items. Flavor it as their skill (after all you already gain some stats from leveling, your players just get a bit more in the way of stats, and the extra hit/damage/ac is easily seen as an increase in skill), and you're good to go.

It's not a perfect set-up, but it's better than throwing your players to the wolves with no magic and no compensation at all.

[Relecs]

Seerow, I get where you are coming from, and this would certainly save a lot of work, however, I don`t think I`m going to use this for two reasons, the first being that I am not so much looking for a quick fix as I am for a more concrete fix to each class which either powers them up or powers monsters down, or just make the pc face weaker monsters for longer. The second reason not to use the vow of poverty is that I have at least one player who I know hates the vow and a few others who dislike it so forcing it onto their characters might not be a good start to a campaign. All the same thank you for the suggestion, at first glance it made a lot of sense until I took these factors under consideration.

[Kilbourne]

He's not saying you force them to take the vow of poverty, just that they gain the bonuses. All of the bonuses, for all of the characters, no matter what.


The reason for this is that the game is balanced around the characters and monsters having a certain amount of magical wealth at each level. If the characters do not have this wealth, they will fail no matter what you throw at them, even if it's weak things over and over.

Magical items and upgrades are part of the rules of Pathfinder, if and they are removed, you have to synthesize their effect. Usually this means bonuses like the ones from the vow of poverty.

[Gurgeh]

I'd recommend hitting them with lower CR monsters than you would in a high-magic setting. CR in general assumes that the PCs will be at a certain level of functional strength, and a low-magic setting acts to basically reduce that strength.

Another option is to weed out enemies that a low-magic party would have particular difficulties with - monsters with high DR or regeneration, brawler monsters whose weakness is poor will saves, etc. If you tailor your encounters to the party (which you ought to be doing anyway), then a lot of the difficulty will disappear.

What's your plan for spellcasting PCs? Would you be outright banning full casters like the wizard and the cleric? Would you allow them with a restricted spell list, or a reduced casting progression? Would you ban the "pure" casters like wiz/clr/sorc but allow spellcasters like the bard or the paladin? You'll want to consider all of these possibilities, if only because there'll be quite a bit less diversity among party members if the only iconic roles available are those of the fighter and the rogue.

[Seerow]

Seerow, I get where you are coming from, and this would certainly save a lot of work, however, I don`t think I`m going to use this for two reasons, the first being that I am not so much looking for a quick fix as I am for a more concrete fix to each class which either powers them up or powers monsters down, or just make the pc face weaker monsters for longer. The second reason not to use the vow of poverty is that I have at least one player who I know hates the vow and a few others who dislike it so forcing it onto their characters might not be a good start to a campaign. All the same thank you for the suggestion, at first glance it made a lot of sense until I took these factors under consideration.

Like Killbourne said, I'm not saying force them to take the vow, or even give all the benefits and restrictions of it (as that has a lot of connotations not all players like, as you noted), but rather, let them use what magic items they find... but give them free enhancement bonuses to hit, armor class, and stats, so that their to-hit and damage stats stay in line with what is expected of them at their level. This saves you the trouble of having to homebrew changes for every monster out there, while not breaking the feel of the setting.

Now, if you want to make changes to specific classes to make it fit with the setting better, that's a different matter (like a noncasting variant of the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard), and I'm sure taking advantage of ACFs and/or houserule changes there will help you a lot there, I'm just saying from a pure numbers perspective, something along the lines of what I posted will be necessary for your players to keep up as they progress in level. Especially since without casting they'll be missing basically all of the buffs out there.

[Bhaakon]

One thing you might consider is replacing low-level magical weapons and armor with exotic materials, high level crafting techniques, or special designs. Something beyond the normal "masterwork" catch-all. For instance an axe made of an exotic metal that holds an edge well might impart the keen quality non-magically, a sword made of particularly light exotic metal would impart the speed quality, a sword with a single-edged blade might gain the merciful ability, and any weapon might be balanced by a master craftsman to gain the throwing quality. There are many things done magically in D&D which could be justified as mundane with a little refluffing. If you're operating a low-magic medieval-like campaign, it's perfectly reasonable for the average level of craftsmanship available to be rather low (particularly for specialty items like weapons).

Another house rule you might want to consider is that a certain percentage (half, 75, all but the 1st level HP, whatever works for you) represent fatigue, plot armor, luck, etc. rather than physical damage, and all those HP automatically regenerate with a decent rest (while the remainder, the ones that represent actual injuries, heal much more slowly).

[Godskook]

Couldn't you just port E6 to pathfinder?

Additionally, tri- or quad- -stalting, but requiring all but 1 side to be low-tier might help as well, especially if some of the classes where things like Crusader, Dragon Shaman or Paladin, what with their secondary healing capabilities.

[faceroll]

Couldn't you just port E6 to pathfinder?

Additionally, tri- or quad- -stalting, but requiring all but 1 side to be low-tier might help as well, especially if some of the classes where things like Crusader, Dragon Shaman or Paladin, what with their secondary healing capabilities.

Breathing fire is probably a little more magical than he is looking for.

ToB classes would do best here- encourage everyone to play one. Perhaps give every class some martial maneuver progression? Gestalting ToB with T4 classes would be a good place to start.

Also, since everyone is going to be sitting in melee, hitting each other (or using archery), go with free VoP benefits for all. The one piece of the game reasonably balanced are the numbers you get from +3 mithril breast plate or whatever. Taking that away means your characters are going to have difficulty landing attacks.

Oh yeah, and healing will be troublesome, especially at levels 1-3. You might end up with character dying from filth fever or something equally lame as they wait the week to fully recover their HP.

[Godskook]

Oh yeah, and healing will be troublesome, especially at levels 1-3. You might end up with character dying from filth fever or something equally lame as they wait the week to fully recover their HP.

People with proper care *NEVER* die of filth fever, fyi. Long-term care heals 4 points of damage per day.

[Retech]

Just make sure monsters don't have some high DR and it should be alright.

[Croverus]

From my understanding, you're looking for homebrew setting rules concerning magic.

My first step to adjusting classes to deal with this is to first check what abilities are spells, what are spell-like, what are supernatural, and what are extraordinary. Extraordinary abilities would remain the same as they involve the talent and skill of the individual. Supernatural abilities are not strictly magical and should be loked at on a case-by-case basis, usualy you can leave them as is or if you need to tone them down.

Spells in the type of low magic setting you're speaking of would eb something a player has to invest in. Basically add additional requirements for someone to even be able to cast spells (increas the minimum associated attribute so instead of 10+ spell level, maybe 13+ spell level, or higher if needed), as well as requiring a feat to access the magic or somehting. Spell like abilities can be removed as automatic powers and replaced as class-specific feats, showing that the character had to go through some amount of training to obtain the amazing abilities their class can give.

Healing is a big issue. Alchemy can be made less associated with amgic and taken from the more scientific perspective, so you can still have potions, and unique items that aren't too powerful coudl be highly prized crafts. Alchemy basially becomes on par with magic.

Using this rules, a player coudl still be a wizard, but he's have to have say at least an Int of 13 or 14 just to cast the simplest spells, and would need to use his 1st level feat to gain access to his cantrips. Replace the automatc Scrib Scroll feat with Brew Potions, and maybe give them 4 skill points instead of just 2, so the NPC view of a "wizard" is less recognized for their magical prowess and more for their knowledge and alchemy.

I'm sure I can come up with more stuff for other classes if you like my ideas so far.

[Eldariel]

There's a campaign journal in my signature telling of my own forays to a low-magic world (basically, no magic available to players). It might be of interest to you. I explain our house rules and show them in action; indeed, it's more of a record of how this altered rule set functions than a journal (though it serves as the latter too, I hope).

You do need some houserules though:
1) AC does not scale outside magic. Without magic, AC will swiftly be outpaced by attack bonus. You need some non-magical level-scaling AC bonus (we just gave everyone ½ level to all ACs as Dodge-bonus on basis of "skill" - it could be possible to give different classes different scalings but no dice)
2) Healing does not exist and natural healing is horribly slow. Without houserules, your characters will have to rest for days whenever someone hits them; if the game has anywhere near normal amounts of combat, people will either die just due to constant injury without healing around 10th encounter or so. We use modified Vitality Point/Wound Point System (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm); as most damage is VP damage, you can still adventure just fine after encounters, and yet there are ways to get damaged so that you need days of rest to heal it up.
3) Martial characters need more skills, since everything suddenly needs to be done with skills and the standard skill point allocation is woefully inadequate even in PF. We simply gave everyone more skill points; 6 extra skills per level. Some worse classes like Fighters should probably get even more. Also, expanded class skill lists are welcome.
4) Combat options. Normally, these are mostly magic. Tome of Battle and Tome of Battlifying other classes (I'm playing a ToB Ranger, for example) were our choices here, along with rewriting Poisons to be more sensible and versatile.
5) Everyone gets more feats (yes, even more than default PF; it was a step in the right direction but an insufficient one at that). This again helps with combat options and martial characters needing feats to do everything. 2 feats on 1st level, 1 on 2nd and every 2 levels there-after. And a bonus Regional feat while at it, and any class-based feats you want.

Further, we balanced the feat costs of the various combat styles; Two-Weapon Fighting now grants you Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting without extra feats and Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are one feat. Dodge and Mobility are likewise combined. Shields add to your Touch AC and with Shield Specialization, can be used to block 1 attack a turn to you or adjacent. This makes non-Two Handing more in line with Two-Handing and makes it possible to be competent in multiple combat styles without cramping your character (y'know, for versatility).

[Relecs]

I'd recommend hitting them with lower CR monsters than you would in a high-magic setting. CR in general assumes that the PCs will be at a certain level of functional strength, and a low-magic setting acts to basically reduce that strength.

Another option is to weed out enemies that a low-magic party would have particular difficulties with - monsters with high DR or regeneration, brawler monsters whose weakness is poor will saves, etc. If you tailor your encounters to the party (which you ought to be doing anyway), then a lot of the difficulty will disappear.

What's your plan for spellcasting PCs? Would you be outright banning full casters like the wizard and the cleric? Would you allow them with a restricted spell list, or a reduced casting progression? Would you ban the "pure" casters like wiz/clr/sorc but allow spellcasters like the bard or the paladin? You'll want to consider all of these possibilities, if only because there'll be quite a bit less diversity among party members if the only iconic roles available are those of the fighter and the rogue.

I'll definatley be tailoring encounter's to the pc's so I'll look out for monsters with the abilities you mentioned (I'd never thought of the brawlers as a problem, thanks)

As far as spell casting pc's I'm outright banning full casters and I'm making variants on the partial casters to make them mundane. That said I am planning on creating a feat which essentially means that they have the blood of the ancient mages from the before times in their veins which will give them access to a number of spell like abilities as the level up and role playing situations appear which make them manifest. (I'll be posting this feat later once I've worked out the kinks in it)

Thanks for the advice

[Relecs]

Like Killbourne said, I'm not saying force them to take the vow, or even give all the benefits and restrictions of it (as that has a lot of connotations not all players like, as you noted), but rather, let them use what magic items they find... but give them free enhancement bonuses to hit, armor class, and stats, so that their to-hit and damage stats stay in line with what is expected of them at their level. This saves you the trouble of having to homebrew changes for every monster out there, while not breaking the feel of the setting.

Now, if you want to make changes to specific classes to make it fit with the setting better, that's a different matter (like a noncasting variant of the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard), and I'm sure taking advantage of ACFs and/or houserule changes there will help you a lot there, I'm just saying from a pure numbers perspective, something along the lines of what I posted will be necessary for your players to keep up as they progress in level. Especially since without casting they'll be missing basically all of the buffs out there.

Okay, while with that in mind I may use something along the lines of the vow of poverty although I might attempt to tailor it more specifically to each class.

Also what's the ACF's?

[Relecs]

One thing you might consider is replacing low-level magical weapons and armor with exotic materials, high level crafting techniques, or special designs. Something beyond the normal "masterwork" catch-all. For instance an axe made of an exotic metal that holds an edge well might impart the keen quality non-magically, a sword made of particularly light exotic metal would impart the speed quality, a sword with a single-edged blade might gain the merciful ability, and any weapon might be balanced by a master craftsman to gain the throwing quality. There are many things done magically in D&D which could be justified as mundane with a little refluffing. If you're operating a low-magic medieval-like campaign, it's perfectly reasonable for the average level of craftsmanship available to be rather low (particularly for specialty items like weapons).

Another house rule you might want to consider is that a certain percentage (half, 75, all but the 1st level HP, whatever works for you) represent fatigue, plot armor, luck, etc. rather than physical damage, and all those HP automatically regenerate with a decent rest (while the remainder, the ones that represent actual injuries, heal much more slowly).

I am considering this, possibly making multiple levels of masterwork, or materials in order to simulate certain effects, although I probably wouldn't go so far as the speed quality, but the keen quality (or possibly a weaker version like +1 to threat range) or other qualities may be applicable (I hadn't considered actual effects before so much as just further +1's so thanks for this tip)

As far as the later half of your comment I am definatley going to be using some variation of the vitality/wound rules.

[Relecs]

Couldn't you just port E6 to pathfinder?

Additionally, tri- or quad- -stalting, but requiring all but 1 side to be low-tier might help as well, especially if some of the classes where things like Crusader, Dragon Shaman or Paladin, what with their secondary healing capabilities.

I don't know E6, could you give me the full name or send me a link?

As far as gestalt classes I would prefer not to for two reasons, the first being that I don't want to power up the pc's to much, I want to make combat feel more dangerous. The second reason being that I will only be allowing core pathfinder classes (+the cavalier) and so allowing people to take the features of multiple classes will probably end up in a lot of unoriginal classes and little to no variation within the group.

[Eldariel]

I don't know E6, could you give me the full name or send me a link?

E6 is basically normal D&D 3e variant that caps the classes on level 6 for various reasons (basically, things are relatively fair there, the differences between base classes are highlighted there and level 6 is a level where a character is capable of the most remarkable feats a human is capable of). After level 6, characters advance with bonus feats only. Then there's further development like capstones for single-classed characters, PRCs converted into feat chains and so on.

This thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=202109) details the basics of the system.


I am considering this, possibly making multiple levels of masterwork, or materials in order to simulate certain effects, although I probably wouldn't go so far as the speed quality, but the keen quality (or possibly a weaker version like +1 to threat range) or other qualities may be applicable (I hadn't considered actual effects before so much as just further +1's so thanks for this tip)

As far as the later half of your comment I am definatley going to be using some variation of the vitality/wound rules.

Overall, 3.5 uses a massively simplified system of levels of mundane craftsmanship. In reality, there are many steps between "Masterwork" and "Normal" and "Poorly crafted" and different things you can build a weapon for (sharp cutting, durability, swiftness, etc.) but due to the system's focus on magic enhancements, those aren't present. So yeah, it's a great idea to convert the magic enhancements that make sense into mundane versions, and expand the weapon tables beyond "Normal, Masterwork" with stuff like Keen swords, "+1" (and higher) swords and such as simple different levels of craftsmanship.

[Relecs]

Breathing fire is probably a little more magical than he is looking for.

ToB classes would do best here- encourage everyone to play one. Perhaps give every class some martial maneuver progression? Gestalting ToB with T4 classes would be a good place to start.

Also, since everyone is going to be sitting in melee, hitting each other (or using archery), go with free VoP benefits for all. The one piece of the game reasonably balanced are the numbers you get from +3 mithril breast plate or whatever. Taking that away means your characters are going to have difficulty landing attacks.

Oh yeah, and healing will be troublesome, especially at levels 1-3. You might end up with character dying from filth fever or something equally lame as they wait the week to fully recover their HP.

I'm personally not a big fan of the ToB, that aside I also like to stay with just pathfinder classes when running pathfinder for consistency and power balance. While there may be ways to balance 3-3.5 classes well for pathfinder I feel like creating a low magic setting is going to be enough of a variable and so I need to keep some constants so that when the game starts breaking it's easier to identify the causes.

With what Godskook added about Filth Fever that's actually the feel I want to go for, if someone gets a disease then bed rest or questing to the elven village to find a cure, is something which I would like in my games (providing my players are up for the roleplaying challenge and don't get bored because there is to much downtime)

[Relecs]

From my understanding, you're looking for homebrew setting rules concerning magic.

My first step to adjusting classes to deal with this is to first check what abilities are spells, what are spell-like, what are supernatural, and what are extraordinary. Extraordinary abilities would remain the same as they involve the talent and skill of the individual. Supernatural abilities are not strictly magical and should be loked at on a case-by-case basis, usualy you can leave them as is or if you need to tone them down.

Spells in the type of low magic setting you're speaking of would eb something a player has to invest in. Basically add additional requirements for someone to even be able to cast spells (increas the minimum associated attribute so instead of 10+ spell level, maybe 13+ spell level, or higher if needed), as well as requiring a feat to access the magic or somehting. Spell like abilities can be removed as automatic powers and replaced as class-specific feats, showing that the character had to go through some amount of training to obtain the amazing abilities their class can give.

Healing is a big issue. Alchemy can be made less associated with amgic and taken from the more scientific perspective, so you can still have potions, and unique items that aren't too powerful coudl be highly prized crafts. Alchemy basially becomes on par with magic.

Using this rules, a player coudl still be a wizard, but he's have to have say at least an Int of 13 or 14 just to cast the simplest spells, and would need to use his 1st level feat to gain access to his cantrips. Replace the automatc Scrib Scroll feat with Brew Potions, and maybe give them 4 skill points instead of just 2, so the NPC view of a "wizard" is less recognized for their magical prowess and more for their knowledge and alchemy.

I'm sure I can come up with more stuff for other classes if you like my ideas so far.

I'll definatley be looking through the classes for features which feel to magical. I'll be making variants of the Bard, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger and minor alterations to the Rogue (some of the talents are magical)

I'm not sure yet if I want to make science based healing potions and the like, while it might balance the game a bit I don't know if it will fit the feel of the campaign yet.

As far as more difficult spellcasting I don't think I'm going to go with it I would rather just have magic be a rare and wondrous thing.

Thanks

[Relecs]

There's a campaign journal in my signature telling of my own forays to a low-magic world (basically, no magic available to players). It might be of interest to you. I explain our house rules and show them in action; indeed, it's more of a record of how this altered rule set functions than a journal (though it serves as the latter too, I hope).

You do need some houserules though:
1) AC does not scale outside magic. Without magic, AC will swiftly be outpaced by attack bonus. You need some non-magical level-scaling AC bonus (we just gave everyone ½ level to all ACs as Dodge-bonus on basis of "skill" - it could be possible to give different classes different scalings but no dice)
2) Healing does not exist and natural healing is horribly slow. Without houserules, your characters will have to rest for days whenever someone hits them; if the game has anywhere near normal amounts of combat, people will either die just due to constant injury without healing around 10th encounter or so. We use modified Vitality Point/Wound Point System (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm); as most damage is VP damage, you can still adventure just fine after encounters, and yet there are ways to get damaged so that you need days of rest to heal it up.
3) Martial characters need more skills, since everything suddenly needs to be done with skills and the standard skill point allocation is woefully inadequate even in PF. We simply gave everyone more skill points; 6 extra skills per level. Some worse classes like Fighters should probably get even more. Also, expanded class skill lists are welcome.
4) Combat options. Normally, these are mostly magic. Tome of Battle and Tome of Battlifying other classes (I'm playing a ToB Ranger, for example) were our choices here, along with rewriting Poisons to be more sensible and versatile.
5) Everyone gets more feats (yes, even more than default PF; it was a step in the right direction but an insufficient one at that). This again helps with combat options and martial characters needing feats to do everything. 2 feats on 1st level, 1 on 2nd and every 2 levels there-after. And a bonus Regional feat while at it, and any class-based feats you want.

Further, we balanced the feat costs of the various combat styles; Two-Weapon Fighting now grants you Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting without extra feats and Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are one feat. Dodge and Mobility are likewise combined. Shields add to your Touch AC and with Shield Specialization, can be used to block 1 attack a turn to you or adjacent. This makes non-Two Handing more in line with Two-Handing and makes it possible to be competent in multiple combat styles without cramping your character (y'know, for versatility).

1)I've been considering what some people have been saying about the vow of poverty and I may make some sort of counter balance for the weight of no magical help
2) I'm going with the wound/vitality point system or some variation on it, how does it effect poisons and disease? can you become diseased by an attack if it only hits your vitality? I want to make it so that poison and disease only effects people one they're in their wounds to make poison and disease truly rare and terrifying but I'm not sure how this would effect the cr's of monsters who rely on these effects (that said I also don't want to use to many of those creatures since the party wouldn't have access to quick fixes)
3) I hadn't thought about it but I'll buff everyone's skill points and possibly expand class skill lists as well.
4)Tome of Battle isn't really my schtick and most of my players are often happy to play martial classes. I may create some feats to add a bit more combat versatility for the players who want more options out of their characters.
5)I'll take a look at upping the number of feats which everyone receives or possibly combining some feats

I'll also take a look at combining some of the feats you've mentioned I would certainly like to see more shielded fighters since it has such a classic fantasy quality to it.

Also I'm taking a look over the journal and I think some things may be useful for me, thanks.

[Eldariel]

1)I've been considering what some people have been saying about the vow of poverty and I may make some sort of counter balance for the weight of no magical help

All you really need is extra AC and stats. I dislike straight VoP because it has some stuff that's totally ridiculous for mundanes (not to mention, it gives you stuff like Deflection, Natural Armor and Enhancement bonus to AC), and the scaling is a bit stupid since it replaces magic items. VoP is made for magical games for characters who don't use magic items but if the whole game is non-magical, it's unnecessary.

What is necessary is buffing AC so it doesn't get automatically trivialized by BAB, and I like faster stat gain since that allows more different characters when you can actually ramp stats more than 1 point every 4 levels. We currently use rule that you gain one point every level except every 4th (so 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, etc.) and that in every cycle of 4, you may put at most 2 points in any one stats. I also like increasing all stats by 1 every 5 levels.


Basically, stuff like flight, energy resistance and such doesn't make sense but isn't necessary either. The principal things magic buffs are AC, To hit and stats. Since To hit scales more mundanely than AC, more of AC is magic normally so you need to compensate for the difference. And while you don't need to compensate for the lack of stat scaling, I find it more enjoyable when there's a clear difference purely stat-wise between a level 1 and a level 10 character so I like giving increased scaling on that front too.


2) I'm going with the wound/vitality point system or some variation on it, how does it effect poisons and disease? can you become diseased by an attack if it only hits your vitality? I want to make it so that poison and disease only effects people one they're in their wounds to make poison and disease truly rare and terrifying but I'm not sure how this would effect the cr's of monsters who rely on these effects (that said I also don't want to use to many of those creatures since the party wouldn't have access to quick fixes)

VP hit is still a scratch; that's enough to apply contact injury poison. At least as default; you can rework that, but I found it unnecessary. We further altered the system so that every WP hit hits some specific bodypart, and that you have VP thresholds where you take flat penalties to everything (that is, you get tired). This enables actual bodypart damage without heavily modifying the system.

We also reworked poisons. Basically, normal poisons are too low DC and too hit'n'miss so we made poisons have more properties; they can require multiple consecutive saves to shrug off, applying the effect on each failed save. They can also have increased DCs based on the Craft: Poisonmaking of the creator.

[Relecs]

E6 is basically normal D&D 3e variant that caps the classes on level 6 for various reasons (basically, things are relatively fair there, the differences between base classes are highlighted there and level 6 is a level where a character is capable of the most remarkable feats a human is capable of). After level 6, characters advance with bonus feats only. Then there's further development like capstones for single-classed characters, PRCs converted into feat chains and so on.

This thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=202109) details the basics of the system.

I've been looking over E6 since you posted this and it seems interesting, I might consider using it although I would still make it even lower magic as I have been planning by making spell casters almost non-existent. Do you know of anyone who has tried this? does the game get to stale?

[Eldariel]

I've been looking over E6 since you posted this and it seems interesting, I might consider using it although I would still make it even lower magic as I have been planning by making spell casters almost non-existent. Do you know of anyone who has tried this? does the game get to stale?

E6 works for low-magic game quite well since it keeps the mundane types "realistic" for certain definitions of realistic, and the high levels don't really give warriors anything but bigger numbers anyways so you don't miss out on options; level 6 warriors largely have the same option as level 20 versions, level 20s just do it better. So in that sense, for a low-magic game it doesn't really restrict options that much.

E6 is good for gritty fantasy where heroes never become truly superhuman (compared to us); many low-magic games are like that and as such, E6 can work really well.

[Relecs]

All you really need is extra AC and stats. I dislike straight VoP because it has some stuff that's totally ridiculous for mundanes (not to mention, it gives you stuff like Deflection, Natural Armor and Enhancement bonus to AC), and the scaling is a bit stupid since it replaces magic items. VoP is made for magical games for characters who don't use magic items but if the whole game is non-magical, it's unnecessary.

What is necessary is buffing AC so it doesn't get automatically trivialized by BAB, and I like faster stat gain since that allows more different characters when you can actually ramp stats more than 1 point every 4 levels. We currently use rule that you gain one point every level except every 4th (so 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, etc.) and that in every cycle of 4, you may put at most 2 points in any one stats. I also like increasing all stats by 1 every 5 levels.


Basically, stuff like flight, energy resistance and such doesn't make sense but isn't necessary either. The principal things magic buffs are AC, To hit and stats. Since To hit scales more mundanely than AC, more of AC is magic normally so you need to compensate for the difference. And while you don't need to compensate for the lack of stat scaling, I find it more enjoyable when there's a clear difference purely stat-wise between a level 1 and a level 10 character so I like giving increased scaling on that front too.


I'll keep this in mind as it would make conversion a lot easier and make things still keep the mundane feel I'm going for. I might go with something like the progression you suggested in order to force the players to vary their stats rather than just stacking strength as a fighter. I may also place a cap of some sort so that they can't raise stats above a certain point.

[glennfrogknight]

It sounds to me like you should look at running an Iron Heroes campaign.

[Relecs]

It sounds to me like you should look at running an Iron Heroes campaign.

I've looked over Iron heroes and I may one day run a campaign with it but my only problem is that it's a little rules heavy on the combat side, I understand that it lends more versatility to martial classes in order to compensate for the lack of spellcasters but I'm not ready to learn the rules for it and teach it to my group and make modifications (since it has a lacking beastiary which requires a lot of monster conversion from previous editions).

General Stuff

Okay so taking from the advice given here I have decided to run a E6 game, I am going to completely remove full spellcasting classes as a playable option and I am going to use a quasi-vow-of-poverty bonus system to attempt to balance characters so that I do not have to make countless modifications to the monsters.

Theses bonuses will be in this form
a competence bonus to AC equaling BAB
a competence bonus to save equaling 1/3 character level (rounded down to the nearest whole number)
a competence bonus to Attack and Damage rolls equal to 1/3 BAB

While this does not cover a number of the bonuses granted by magic items it does cover a mainstay of the bonuses (a weapon could be +2 by level 6, all ac items could equal a +8 by level 6 and a cloak of resistance would be +2 by level 6)

If I'm forgetting anything majorly important please let me know.

While that in my opinion covers magic item I am still left with the absence of spells, most importantly area of effect, buffs, and healing spells.

I'm hoping that implementing a vitality point system may alleviate the importance of healing. Because I am planning on having the vitality points represent hero-syndrome/plot-armor I am considering having vitality (not wounds) recover fully between any reasonably spaced encounters (not when ambushed directly after a battle but if they have a chance to move on to the next dungeon room or hold the door for a short while, etc. the vitality restores) in the same chain of thoughts I am considering having poison and disease only effect characters if it is applied via wound points, this is partially to counteract the effect of not having restoration spells.

In addition to this I am considering taking a page from Eldariel's campaign journal and having wound point damage effect specific body parts (although I think that was only critical hits in the journal) Movement penalties for legs, Attack (or shield) penalties for arms, Head effects I would have to be careful with as I don't want to many lethal effects as this would be to dangerous in a setting in which the characters have almost no possibility of being resurrected.

With wound penalties in mind I need to change up the heal skill, making it possible to lessen or eliminate wound penalties through successful checks. (a medic who sets a leg properly and use the right herbs can have you up and running again much quicker)

I also have plans for a feat which will allow spell like abilities, something along the lines of having the blood of one of the wizards of ancient times running through your veins. The list of spells which I feel may be appropriate is Animal messenger, calm animals, Cure light Wounds, Disguise Self, Fear, knock, Light, Sanctuary, and stabilize. Alterations would be made on most of them in order to maintain the feel of the campaign. These changes would include an increase in cast time as well as larger changes for some of them.

Cure light wounds for example would heal only 1d8 not + caster level and would be a out of combat spell (casting time of an hour) but would heal wounds which otherwise would be very difficult to recover

Fear and Sanctuary would be very situation dependent, not quite sure yet but i wouldn't want them being used every combat just because they're there, they would more likely be plot devices or require a sacrifice on the casters part in order to prevent overuse.

The plan for the feat which would give these abilities is that it might not give any abilities to start or only 1 or 2 of them and the others would become available through roleplaying.

So my questions for the community are these
Do the bonuses I have presented seem balanced and able to counteract the missing magic items?
Does the variations I have presented to the Wound/Virility system seem viable or is there something wrong with it? what?
Finally does this feat seem like something which may work, any suggestions?
As well all comments on what has been posted, or just suggestions in general are welcome.

Thanks

Relecs

Edit: I'm considering lowering the AC bonuses as I am looking at the beastiary and most CR 6 monsters have around a +11 primary attack, this means a sword and shield fighter (not tower shield) is only being hit on a 16+ with the ac bonuses I was previously considering. This seems high (especially because if they do use a tower shield it's 18+) and this is before any feats which increase AC. I feel like a level 6 character who is good at defense might be more balanced if it took at most a 15 to hit with a primary attack of an equal opponent. I may want to consider 1/2 BAB competence bonus to AC, what does the playground think?

[PinkysBrain]

Be prepared for people to stop playing melee characters after the second time they die if you make it all but impossible to heal. Unless you play carebear and keep them alive by fudging all the time, which will have other consequences.

Archery is already generally more powerful than melee for martial characters in PF, lack of healing only makes it worse ... melee rogues especially will be all kinds of fun, if you like making new characters a lot.

[Eldariel]

Be prepared for people to stop playing melee characters after the second time they die if you make it all but impossible to heal. Unless you play carebear and keep them alive by fudging all the time, which will have other consequences.

Archery is already generally more powerful than melee for martial characters in PF, lack of healing only makes it worse ... melee rogues especially will be all kinds of fun, if you like making new characters a lot.

VP/WP kinda fixes that.

[Relecs]

Be prepared for people to stop playing melee characters after the second time they die if you make it all but impossible to heal. Unless you play carebear and keep them alive by fudging all the time, which will have other consequences.

Archery is already generally more powerful than melee for martial characters in PF, lack of healing only makes it worse ... melee rogues especially will be all kinds of fun, if you like making new characters a lot.

In addition to Eladriel's comment about wp/vp my players aren't really munchkins (I'm much more of a powergamer than they are no matter how hard I try to be) I know that this system will be lethal but I'm going to attempt to balance it the best I can without killing or carebearing too often.

More General Stuff

So I have been working on my non-magical Bard (never realized just how magical they were since no one plays one) and I'm going to start posting my work on it here in order to see if the playground thinks it's too strong, too weak, just stupid or hopefully...good.

Oh also this is for E6 so I'm ignoring class features above 6th level although the new abilities I'm creating are meant to function at all levels of play so that I may one day use them for a higher level no magic class.

First of all I'm removing

Spells
Countersong
Distraction
Suggestion


I still need to alter

Fascinate
Inspire Competence


I'm adding

Medium Armor Proficiency
Bonus Feats at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 11, 14, 17, 20
Dance around the Attack(ex)once per round a Bard hit by a melee attack may make a perform(dance) check with a DC equal to the attack roll. If the check is successful the Bard takes no damage and may take a 5-foot step in any direction. If the Bard chooses to move into the attacking creatures square with this movement he must initiate a grapple or Bull rush attempt (Bard's choice). If the Bard chooses to move to a location adjacent to the attacker he may initiate a trip or disarm attempt. The Bard receives a bonus to these combat maneuvers equal to the amount his performance exceeded the attack.
Versatile Combatant(ex)A Bard may raise his base attack bonus to equal his level, gain a d6 of sneak attack damage for every 2 Bard levels he possess, gain DR 1/- for every 4 Bard levels he posses, or gain a flurry of blows attack as a monk of equal level for a number of rounds per day equal to 4+Cha modifier. Gaining one of these effects is a free action. A Bard of 6th level or higher may gain 2 effects for the duration he maintains it (3 at12th, all 4 at 18) This ability will likely be accompanied by a feat which allows a Bard to gain an additional number of rounds of this ability per day

[PinkysBrain]

VP/WP kinda fixes that.
It kinda doesn't ... either you can top up between fights or you're closer to death with every fight, there is no middle ground.

[Eldariel]

It kinda doesn't ... either you can top up between fights or you're closer to death with every fight, there is no middle ground.

You'll rarely take WP damage and VP damage heals up very quickly. Combined with the fact that being reduced to 0 WP is not instant death, this means you can go through quite a few encounters without trouble. Sure, you'll eventually have to heal up your WP at some point, but that's fine. Having to heal up after every 10th encounter really only makes sense and doesn't really prevent adventuring or any such.

Before then, it's always a calculated risk to go on with WP damage but unlike with standard HP system, you aren't practically guaranteed to take WP damage constantly meaning every encounter isn't necessarily going to decrease your ability to move on. It can happen but won't happen often enough to mess up your ability to adventure (this all out of experience; the Campaign Journal in my signature has no healing beyond natural healing and uses VP/WP system and while we've of course been impeded by WP damage, we've yet to be in a position where we can't get a job done because we can't move on).

[PinkysBrain]

If Crit=WP then rarely is a huge overstatement ... every fight is more likely.

[Eldariel]

If Crit=WP then rarely is a huge overstatement ... every fight is more likely.

...you have confirmed crits in every fight? :smallconfused: I mean, even with crit-focused weapons like Scimitars or Falchions and 50% chance to hit, you're still looking at mere 7.5% of crit chance per attack. And if you primarily face 19-20 crit weapons, which is majority of the weapons in the game, the number of is even lower. And that's without active defense.

If fights last couple of turns with most of the participants eliminated in the first two turns as per usual, I have a hard time seeing a fight containing enough dice to make a crit per fight likely, especially if enemies use some alternative attacks such as splash weapons also. I can most certainly say that it disagrees with my own experiences, albeit the party we're running of course is somewhat focused on stealth and thus avoids getting ambushed quite often.


Still, while we have our share of crits they don't fly left and right. They aren't common enough that you generally have to stop after every 2-3 fights; sure, you take some WP damage but since it occurs quite rarely, you can still adventure with WP damage live just fine.

[PinkysBrain]

In VP/WP system weapons have a lot in common with armour ... most of them just don't make sense. Why would you not get a high crit range weapon as a martial character?

The fatigue rider alone is worth it ... being able to stun, bonus.

Really, it's an epic fail by the designer to not realise all weapons should have the same crit range. In the normal system the average damage multiplier of all weapons is the same as well, because the crit effect goes up as the range goes down. In the VP/WP system the crit effect stays the same, so the range should stay the same.