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Sydonai
2011-05-29, 02:36 AM
I would like to assemble a list of "World-Serpent" fragments within the D&D settings.

Secondly, I'd like any information on the World-Serpent itself.





Current List;
(?)=unconfirmed

"World Serpent Inn"(?)
Merrshaulk/"Sseth"/"Varae"
Shekinester
Io
Semuanya
Jazirian & Ahriman(Asmodeus?), the Twin Serpents
Essylliss(?)
M'daess(?)
Ssharstrune(?)( subsumed by Shekinester)
Sss'thasine'ss(?)( killed, replaced by Talona)
Vorel( killed by Tiamat), Nathair Sgiathach, Caesinjach, Bahamut, and Tiamat ( by way of Io)
Glasya(?)( by way of Asmodeus)
Leviathan(?)( "Sleeping Deep Dragons"?)
Kurtulmak(?)( by way of Caesinjach)
Ramenos(?)
Parrafaire( by way of Shekinester and Jazirian)
Beltar(?)
Wastri(?)
Vecna(?)( by way of "The Serpent"(Asmodeus?))

KillianHawkeye
2011-05-29, 03:40 AM
I'm pretty sure The World Serpent is one of the highest-ranking Primal Spirits in 4E D&D. You can probably read some fluff about it in Primal Power.

I can't recall ever seeing it mentioned in any other edition, however.

Also, I don't really know what you mean by "fragments."

Sydonai
2011-05-29, 04:30 AM
I'm pretty sure The World Serpent is one of the highest-ranking Primal Spirits in 4E D&D. You can probably read some fluff about it in Primal Power.

I can't recall ever seeing it mentioned in any other edition, however.

Also, I don't really know what you mean by "fragments."

1; The "World Serpent" in Primal Power is probably the Elder Evil known as Leviathan. The being I am referring to is technically a Primordial/Overdeity, depending on which edition you use.

2; The World-Serpent has been around since 2nd Ed, I'm not sure about 1st.

3; The "World Serpent Archetype" describes any of the beings that are descended from the Serpent. These are what I referred to as "Fragments".

KillianHawkeye
2011-05-29, 06:08 AM
The "World Serpent" in Primal Power is probably the Elder Evil known as Leviathan. The being I am referring to is technically a Primordial/Overdeity, depending on which edition you use.

While the Primal Spirits often go by many names, I haven't been able to find anything that equates The World Serpent with Leviathan. In addition, most Primal Spirits maintain a more neutral attitude aside from their efforts in protecting the world from cataclysmic destruction.

Sydonai
2011-05-29, 07:06 PM
The description of the Primal Spirit known as World Serpent describes Jörmungandr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr) almost perfectly, and Leviathan is pretty much a Jörmungandr expy. On the other hand, the World Serpent overdeity is described as being more like Ouroboros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros) personified.

KillianHawkeye
2011-05-29, 07:54 PM
On the other hand, the World Serpent overdeity is described as being more like Ouroboros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros) personified.

That symbol is also used for 4E's World Serpent.

Anyway, you appear to have a very particular idea of what you want that your original post did not convey to me. As I said, I'm not familiar with previous incarnations of The World Serpent. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Archpaladin Zousha
2011-05-29, 08:44 PM
The description of the Primal Spirit known as World Serpent describes Jörmungandr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr) almost perfectly, and Leviathan is pretty much a Jörmungandr expy. On the other hand, the World Serpent overdeity is described as being more like Ouroboros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros) personified.
There's a strong difference between the World Serpent and the Midgard Serpent/Leviathan.

If what I read in Elder Evils is correct, the Leviathan is a primordial being of Chaos that stirs when Chaos becomes the dominant force in the world, and the natural disasters caused by its presence serve to unmake the world. The World Serpent does encompass the entire Material Plane in its coils, but unlike the Midgard Serpent, who was thrown where he was because there was no place in the Nine Worlds he could stay in since he was so friggin' huge, the World Serpent is a protector. He shelters the world in his coils, protecting it not just from the predations of demons and the destructive servants of the Primordials, but also the from the direct intervention of the gods, who could be just as destructive.

The Midgard Serpent is a bitter, evil creature, angry at being cast out of the world, upset that it's literally too big for reality, and aware of its destiny to eventually die at the hands of Thor to make way for the new age and world. Leviathan COULD be an expy of the Midgard Serpent simply by virtue of being an impossibly large sea serpent, but Leviathan seems more mindless in its destruction, and that destruction mostly isn't caused by the Leviathan itself, but by the storms and sea upheavals that herald its awakening.

Urpriest
2011-05-29, 09:07 PM
Leviathan is an expy of...well...Leviathan. Which I suppose you could say is an expy of Tiamat or the like, but at that point you're straying dangerously close to forum rules.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-29, 09:21 PM
The world serpent in 4e is not bent on destroying the world. It is a primal spirit, and the main goal of the primal spirits is to stop demons, primordials, and deities from destroying or reshaping the world.

KillianHawkeye
2011-05-29, 09:23 PM
Leviathan is an expy of...well...Leviathan. Which I suppose you could say is an expy of Tiamat or the like, but at that point you're straying dangerously close to forum rules.

Are you talking about mythological Tiamat (rather than D&D Tiamat)? Anyway, I thought the classical version of Leviathan was basically a ginormous whale, and not a serpent at all.

Urpriest
2011-05-29, 09:35 PM
Are you talking about mythological Tiamat (rather than D&D Tiamat)? Anyway, I thought the classical version of Leviathan was basically a ginormous whale, and not a serpent at all.

Mythological Tiamat.

And whether it's a whale or a serpent is...ambiguous...given the translation and multiple authorship issues of the source.

Gamer Girl
2011-05-29, 10:46 PM
I think the World Serpent is Forgotten Realms specific. I've never seen it mentioned in any other books.

For 2E, the orginal source for the World Serpent is the book:Powers and Pantheons. For 3E it's in the book Serpent Kingdoms, of course. In 4E Ouroboros the World Serpent is in the Campaign guide, note that it's a god there(not a primal spirit or anything).

And that is about all the official lore.


You might want to note that Io is a primordial, and Bahamut and Tiamat are not World Serpent fragments.

Vecna is also not a 'fragment'.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-29, 10:54 PM
I think the World Serpent is Forgotten Realms specific. I've never seen it mentioned in any other books.

For 2E, the orginal source for the World Serpent is the book:Powers and Pantheons. For 3E it's in the book Serpent Kingdoms, of course. In 4E Ouroboros the World Serpent is in the Campaign guide, note that it's a god there(not a primal spirit or anything).

And that is about all the official lore.


You might want to note that Io is a primordial, and Bahamut and Tiamat are not World Serpent fragments.

Vecna is also not a 'fragment'.

You're getting your 4e wrong. If this is the generic 4e setting, Io is a dead god, and his two halves became Bahamut and Tiamat. If it's 4e FR, then that doesn't count for their places in 4e.

Sydonai
2011-05-29, 11:03 PM
I think the World Serpent is Forgotten Realms specific. I've never seen it mentioned in any other books.

For 2E, the orginal source for the World Serpent is the book:Powers and Pantheons. For 3E it's in the book Serpent Kingdoms, of course. In 4E Ouroboros the World Serpent is in the Campaign guide, note that it's a god there(not a primal spirit or anything).

And that is about all the official lore.


You might want to note that Io is a primordial, and Bahamut and Tiamat are not World Serpent fragments.

Vecna is also not a 'fragment'.

Vecna repeatedly mentioned that his "true father" was something he referred to as "The Serpent", which sounds alot like Asmodeus/Ahriman when you think about it. Asmodeus may or may not be a fragment, thats why both he and Vecna have (?) by their names.

The World Serpent is mentioned in Greyhawk and Planescape.

Io is an (dead?)Overdeity, not a Primodial. Bahumat and Tiamat are their becuase they are Io's children.

Gamer Girl
2011-05-29, 11:28 PM
In 4E Forgotten Realms Io is a primordial, as mentioned in the Campaign guide. In the Realms, Io is known by the name Asgorath the World Shaper(all the way back to 1E).

In any case Dragons are not related to the World Serpent.

''The Serpent'' is a mystery, but it's also a description used for Epic magic In various times and places, epic spells have been personified as “the Serpent”.

Sydonai
2011-05-30, 12:03 AM
''The Serpent'' is a mystery, but it's also a description used for Epic magic In various times and places, epic spells have been personified as “the Serpent”.

...And this contradicts me how? I put a (?) next to him, that means there isn't enough evidence one way or another. Find definitive proof that Vecna is in no way related and I'll remove his name.





"Like Jazirian, Merrshaulk, and Shekinester, Io (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)) is an aspect of the World Serpent archetype."

KillianHawkeye
2011-05-30, 02:58 AM
I think the World Serpent is Forgotten Realms specific. I've never seen it mentioned in any other books.

Well that explains why I didn't know what the OP was asking about. :smallsigh:

Eldan
2011-05-30, 05:15 AM
It can't be forgotten realms specific. After all, Ahriman/Jazirian is mentioned in Asmodeus' Planescape material, and Vecna was never part of the FR either.

Asta Kask
2011-05-30, 07:55 AM
On the other hand, the World Serpent overdeity is described as being more like Ouroboros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros) personified.

Our rob or ros? Can't you decide on one name?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-30, 10:08 AM
I think the World Serpent is Forgotten Realms specific. I've never seen it mentioned in any other books.

It's not FR specific. In the PH2 for 4e, where the primal power source is introduced, the world serpent is mentioned, as well as in the primal power book for 4e.