How to deal with the Mindsight Feat [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Gamer Girl

2011-05-29, 10:59 PM

I use a modified version:

Mindsight
A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings within range of its telepathy. The creature perceives where the others are and how powerful their intellects are.
Prerequisite: Telepathy special quality.

Benefits: This is a Psionic feat that scales with the highest psionic power you can manifest.

1: You gain a mental form of sight out to your maximum Telepathy range. This sight works like Darkvision with the following difference: you may pinpoint all creatures within your line of sight with an intelligence score greater than 1. If you cannot see the creature with another sense, you can pinpoint the square it is in, but that creature still has total concealment. Magical darkness and other effects do not affect Mindsight.

3: You can perceive several observable characteristics about each being detected with mindsight, including the being’s type and Intelligence score. You need not take any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is as obvious to mindsight as the being’s race and clothing would be to eyesight. You also gain Touchsight out to 1/3 of your total Mindsight range.

5: Your mindsight improves again, and your touchsight field extends to 1/2 your total mindsight range. Additionally, you can now determine the psionic or spellcasting capabilities of any intelligence within your touchsight range. This does not reveal any other information beyond if the intelligence is capable of casting spells or manifesting powers. Spell-like and Psi-like abilities are revealed (and are different from 'true' spellcasting) but Supernatural abilities are not.

7: Your Mindsight ability no longer is subject to line of sight - it can penetrate barriers, although 5 feet of stone, wood, dirt, 1 foot of common metal, or a thin sheet of lead still blocks it. Your touchsight ability remains unable to penetrate barriers.

9: Your touchsight field extends to the totality of your mindsight range. Your touchsight ability remains unable to penetrate barriers.

Ryu_Bonkosi

2011-05-29, 11:25 PM

Get things without INT score. Mindsight doesn't spot them.

Ooze
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LP7ttS7niU4/S6sipVlLF9I/AAAAAAAAAno/f6b8fKMT6g4/s1600/Green+slime+3.JPG
Ooze everywhere.

Vulaas

2011-05-30, 01:04 AM

Well done constructs can really ruin their day.

Otherwise, I'm actually kinda curious as to how Mindsight would work with a Voidmind creature that is currently under direct control of one of its Ilithid creators?

Longcat

2011-05-30, 02:27 AM

Thiyr

2011-05-30, 02:39 AM

Having played a character taking this before, I'd be particularly pissed off if suddenly everything was constructs and oozes and mindless creatures. It was extremely potent when I was using it, but I agree with Thurbane, it's fair to let it be blocked by things like nondetection and such so long as the players know beforehand. Similarly, I'd personally add in Darkstalker, but that's just me.

Though admittedly, while knowing type and int score can be useful, it's only gonna let them estimate what something is at best (I had this feat while in a party with an incubus. Had he not gotten assassinated, the incubus was gonna try and bluff his way out of that one. Wouldn't work, my character wouldn't believe anything he said in the first place. She was quite the paranoid one. I digress though). Seeing where they are is all well and good as well, but that's just as good as blindsense/tremorsense etc. Let them reap the benefits of taking the feat when it comes up, and when it's appropriate, let their reliance on it bite them in the behind. Or, if they don't rely on it and just use it as a supplement to their other methods of finding stuff, kudos to them.

Godskook

2011-05-30, 02:55 AM

How about just giving them the information they are entitled to according to the feat, and not screw them over one way or another? Because a sudden influx in creatures without an int score is just that.

PCs aren't 'entitled' to things. This is a cooperative game, and the DM is, by his nature, expected to make game decisions on the fly, and that includes downplaying a feat that both (A)makes DMing harder and (B)might be overpowered in certain campaigns.

NineThePuma

2011-05-30, 03:33 AM

PCs aren't 'entitled' to things.

So, if I take Power Attack, I am not entitled to take penatlies to my accuracy for boosts in damage? :smallconfused:

Darth_Versity

2011-05-30, 03:44 AM

I agree that you should not be changing the types of enemies the pc's face or the enemy tactics just because of this feat. The player probably used two of his finite resources (a level and a feat) in order to get this ability so that they could no longer be tricked by ambushes or shapechangers. It's not like they're getting something for nothing.

Is it a strong feat choice? Yes, but that doesn't mean the player shouldn't enjoy reaping the rewards of their descision. Every now and then you can throw in an enemy that defeats the ability, but you certainly shouldn't out right make it useless. That's worse than just banning the feat.

faceroll

2011-05-30, 03:53 AM

Godskook

2011-05-30, 04:07 AM

So, if I take Power Attack, I am not entitled to take penatlies to my accuracy for boosts in damage? :smallconfused:

Considering there's ways to prevent melee from ever hitting you, what you want to do with power attack is not something you're entitled to be able to do with power attack, making it a prime example for my point.

olentu

2011-05-30, 04:18 AM

Considering there's ways to prevent melee from ever hitting you, what you want to do with power attack is not something you're entitled to be able to do with power attack, making it a prime example for my point.

Personally I would liken it more to giving every enemy elusive target as one is specifically choosing to negate the feat not a general class of actions such as say attacking or moving.

NineThePuma

2011-05-30, 04:31 AM

... *sighs* So now I am no longer entitled to any attack rolls, ever?

Mind, I'm well aware of the power of Mindsight, but it feels to me that you're being ridiculously restraining.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-05-30, 05:27 AM

I've dealt with this on both sides of the DM screen before. Here's some tips and tricks:

1) Ambush in a city. Sure, there's a dozen guys about to ambush you. Among HUNDREDS if not thousands of others also in range. Which needle in the haystack is about to stab you in the back?

2) Likewise with animals in the wilderness. Sure, you know where every animal in a 100' radius is. Fine. You don't know how hostile they are.

3) Undead, Constructs, and Oozes. But only if they absolutely rely on Mindsight to avoid ambush, and don't bother posting sentries or anything. Keep 'em honest, but don't overuse them.

4) Enemies it is most likely to warn you about (higher-level wizards with a high Int score) are more likely to have means to not be bothered with it (port n pwn or scry n die tactics... they're not in range, then they're suddenly attacking).

It is useful in avoiding ambushes in otherwise barren terrain. However, the 'background clutter', particularly in densely populated areas, can severely limit their ability to use their radar effectively. You're about to walk past someone behind a barrel. Is he going to jump out at you with a knife, or is he losing his last lunch? You won't know until you get there.

JaronK

2011-05-30, 05:47 AM

First off, the fluff in that book does suggest that mental immunity prevents Mindsight, even if the feat itself doesn't say that. Illithids are said to hate undead partially because they can't be psychically detected.

With that said, the obvious solution is to have enemies that actually use range effectively... or just give the PCs harder monsters that don't rely solely on stealth and ambush. Yes, Mindsight makes you almost immune to close range ambushes. So what? How much of your game is just close range ambushes?

Consider how many creatures have autodetect abilities that function at 120' or less (Blindsight, Blindsense, etc). Consider that Drow have 120' Darkvision, while most creatures have 60' Darkvision. Many detection spells have a range of 60' or 120'. Result? Most smart ambushing enemies will want to attack from at least 60' out, usually opting for 120' out, using some other method to alert them of an enemy (a basic trap, for example). It's perfectly reasonable that a high level PC can easily notice some stupid brigand by the side of the road. Don't just throw Mindsight immune enemies at the PCs... throw smart enemies at them that understand the concept of Range in a world where almost no detection ability is effective past 120'.

JaronK

Big Fau

2011-05-30, 06:11 AM

I like to rule that creatures with telepathy/Darkstalker are capable of making Hide checks against Mindsight at a penalty equal to half of the Mindsighted creature's HD. Don't ask me how Darkstalker helps though.

Greenish

2011-05-30, 07:14 AM

I use a modified version:

Mindsight

Benefits: This is a Psionic feat that scales with the highest psionic power you can manifest.Which psionic class/race were you thinking of? The Mind's Eye Telepath ACF?

OozeSome oozes are actually non-mindless (mindful?).

2) Likewise with animals in the wilderness. Sure, you know where every animal in a 100' radius is. Fine. You don't know how hostile they are.Given that all animals have int 1-2, and are of animal type, you don't even know whether that blip on the radar is a robin or an advanced Horrid Tiger. :smallamused:

Darth_Versity

2011-05-30, 09:15 AM

Have you ever DM'd for a PC with Mindsight?

No, but I've played a character with it before. We were facing quite a few shapeshifters throughout the game and most of the party were at a loss as to who we could trust and if the people we met were who they said they were.

Taking mindsight really helped us out. I was able to work out who the main enemies were and stopped us from getting ambushed by roof top assassins. It didn't help when a group of drunken sailors started on us, and it didn't help when I started a fight with a Druid in the form of a cat (I thought it was another trick by the enemy)

I don't see how any aspect of mindsight can really make a dm's life that hard. So you know who's in the next room. So does the rogue with his listen check. You know your about to be ambushed on the road, so does the scout with his high spot. So you know that human is actually a disguised elf, so does the true seeing wizard. About the only feature it gives what you can't find out another way is the targets INT score.

Bob the DM

2011-05-30, 09:19 AM

If I'm hearing it correctly, the issue is more that it creates too much headaches for the DM. In my opinion, and feat that offers a unique ability like this that makes the DM's job really difficult should be disallowed at the dm's discretion. It's just as important that the dm has fun, especially since they do the vast majority of the work. In the last campaign I played as a player, we had 2 DM's working together and their setting called for all the pc's to be undead. I was a vampire and look lifesense (the one where all living things glow like torches). Even with 2 DM's I was constantly reminding them that I had and was using the power and all it did was frustrate me that this cool feat wasn't letting me do anything, and it frustrated them as it made so much more work for them. In the end, we just agreed that I'd simply pick a new feat and everyone was happy.

If any feat that has a similar function is having that impact on the game, the only reasonable thing to do is retroactively let the player take something else, and any other feat/level that they took to qualify for it. The point of the game is to have fun.

isotunknown

2011-05-30, 11:05 AM

So, in a nutshell, the feat is taking away from our game.

The communication required, based on the player's telepathic range of 120', to manage the amount of information the DM has to give the PC, and the PC's queries and occasional attempts to communicate with beings three or four rooms over (much more intrusive than a rogues ability to listen) is really sucking time and rhythm away from the game. Every dungeon or structure creates an opportunity for the PC and DM to discuss the location of creatures in dozens of rooms, sometimes five to eight levels above or below our current location. Cities present their own problems given the shear amount of information the PC and DM can exchange. Every animal in the wilderness within 120ft get's a spidey-sense discussion between the DM and PC.

In the case of the city and wilderness examples, we seem to have reached some more efficiency with the idea that the DM rolls a secret Perception (in our game Spot, Hearing, Search, and Sense Motive) check to see if the PC notices either what he's looking for or or something out of the ordinary. But even this can take up DM time and energy.

Anyway, the whole gang is looking for solutions that would improve game play, enable the player to keep his feat (perhaps just largely keep his feat) and the DM to keep his sanity.

@gamergirl: How does your system where the telepathy is not based on psionic ability or manifester level?

Darth_Versity

2011-05-30, 11:54 AM

Ah, you may not have realised it but you don't have a problem with the ability, you have a problem with the player. What your player is requesting (consistent updates of every creature within 120") is the equivelent of a player saying "I have eyes so I want a description of every single thing I see right down to the smallest speck of dust"

It's not how things are done. When the PCs enter a room you describe anything significant, the same thing with mindsight, inform the player that if anything out of the ordinary occurs you will let him know about it (like a very high INT or a creature that should not be there) and other than that he shouldn't need to ask. That way the most he needs to ask about is what's in the next room!

nyarlathotep

2011-05-30, 11:57 AM

A really broad reading of the darkstalker (lords of madness)feat lets things hide from mindsight.

Thiyr

2011-05-30, 12:15 PM

Honestly, yea, the biggest problem seems to lie not with the feat itself. In my two experiences using it, it was never quite that problematic. One time, the -character- legitimately forgot about using it half the time (and the only real reason i took it was because she was kinda paranoid and i needed the mindbender dip to go shadowcraft mage). The other time, the character was using it all the freakin' time. But in a city, that doesn't help much. Too much background noise unless one thing walking in is really out of the ordinary.

While in dungeons for both characters, they were big enough that mindsense didn't cover more than the corridors in front of us and maybe the start of the next floor. Sprawling complexes for us. That's not realistic for everyone though. As far as how to deal with it, the easy solution is to talk to him and say "hey, i understand caution and all, but can we leave this as sort of an unspoken thing until you see something out of the ordinary? Most of us don't care about where the mole people are digging under the city and want to get on with game" And then just have the DM mention stuff out loud ("and while nobody else can, you see this coming from behind with your brain.")

isotunknown

2011-05-30, 12:36 PM

Greenish

2011-05-30, 12:48 PM

I was looking at touchsight . . . does it actually give you the dimensions of rooms, corridors, etc? It says "You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact, allowing you to “feel” your surroundings even in total darkness or when your sight would otherwise be obscured by your physical environment." Would this just make it worse?Yes.

But even worse would be if the characters opened their eyes and you'd have to describe everything they see. :smalltongue:

isotunknown

2011-05-30, 12:56 PM

So, just get the DM and player to quite interacting so much and let the DM give pertinent info when it emerges or let the player look when he is searching for something special? That might improve things.

I'll see about incorporating GamerGirl's approach, which I like, but at levels 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17.

Dralnu

2011-05-30, 01:14 PM

Or you can just kindly ask the player to ditch the problem feat. Seriously, you're the DM and you have the most work cut out for you already. Mindsight WILL be more work for you, there's no going around it. I feel you on the dungeons thing especially. If this feat is problematic and not enjoyable for you, ditch it! You're entitled to having fun at the game just as much as anyone else at the table.

Thurbane

2011-05-30, 05:23 PM

How about just giving them the information they are entitled to according to the feat, and not screw them over one way or another? Because a sudden influx in creatures without an int score is just that.
I don't think the OP would be asking for advice if he didn't think the feat was going to be problematic in his game. He was looking for options other than just outright banning it, if possible.

Not every feat, race, PrC, item, spell etc. in every book printed by WotC neccessarily has to be on the table for PCs to use. The DM has a right to allow or not allow things on a case-by-case basis, or even to offer a modified version (so long as everyone is aware of the changes before they take the feat or whatever).

As Dralnu says, it's completely reasonable for a DM to approach the player and explain that the feat is going to cause issues in his games, and ask that he not take it...

Curmudgeon

2011-05-30, 05:50 PM

A really broad reading of the darkstalker (lords of madness)feat lets things hide from mindsight.
That's really broad.
This works much like blindsense - the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other means. I don't think "works much like" is the same as being blindsense. I'm much more comfortable stating that it's a house rule for Darkstalker to also work against Mindsight.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-05-30, 06:09 PM

So, in a nutshell, the feat is taking away from our game.

The communication required, based on the player's telepathic range of 120', to manage the amount of information the DM has to give the PC, and the PC's queries and occasional attempts to communicate with beings three or four rooms over (much more intrusive than a rogues ability to listen) is really sucking time and rhythm away from the game. Every dungeon or structure creates an opportunity for the PC and DM to discuss the location of creatures in dozens of rooms, sometimes five to eight levels above or below our current location. Cities present their own problems given the shear amount of information the PC and DM can exchange. Every animal in the wilderness within 120ft get's a spidey-sense discussion between the DM and PC. However, you don't get that.

Read the feat again, in the wilderness, you get "There's practically a carpet of animals blanketing your area, none of them have an Int higher than 2". That's ALL YOU GET.

Also, re-read Telepathy, and what blocks it, please. You're not reading minds from several levels above you. That much stone, alone, would block. Far less, if there were any metal deposits in the area.

isotunknown

2011-05-30, 08:09 PM

However, you don't get that.
Read the feat again, in the wilderness, you get "There's practically a carpet of animals blanketing your area, none of them have an Int higher than 2". That's ALL YOU GET.

I agree, and I do get it. The information you've described, along with the location (square) those animals occupy, is the information the feat provides. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. But it's just another opportunity for the DM and PC to interact.

Also, re-read Telepathy, and what blocks it, please. You're not reading minds from several levels above you. That much stone, alone, would block. Far less, if there were any metal deposits in the area.

I'm not aware of the limitations you've described. I'd apprecate a cite, and I'd be glad to read it. Here's what I have read from the Monster Manual 3.5 "
Telepathy (Su): A creature with this ability can communicate
telepathically with any other creature within a certain range (spec-
ified in the creature’s entry, usually 100 feet) that has a language. It
is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically,
although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than
one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speak-
ing and listening to multiple people at the same time.
Some creatures (such as the pseudodragon) have a limited form
of telepathy, while others (such as the formian queen) have a more
powerful form of the ability."

I should also point out that telepathy really doesn't give the ability to "read minds", nor really does Mindsight. Telepathy is really about communication and, as you correctly mentioned above, the information from Mindsight is quite limited. That said, if you're aware of rules that limit telepathy with stone, metal, etc., I'd appreciate the reference.

Thanks

JaronK

2011-05-30, 08:23 PM

All divinations are blocked by stone of appropriate thickness, lead, etc. However, Telepathy was never given those limits. It probably should have, but it wasn't.

JaronK

isotunknown

2011-05-30, 08:31 PM

All divinations are blocked by stone of appropriate thickness, lead, etc. However, Telepathy was never given those limits. It probably should have, but it wasn't.

JaronK

I was aware that "Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked." but not that stone or lead blocked other divinations.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-05-30, 08:36 PM

All divinations are blocked by stone of appropriate thickness, lead, etc. However, Telepathy was never given those limits. It probably should have, but it wasn't.

JaronK

And telepathy isn't a divination effect? Last I checked, it was.

isotunknown

2011-05-30, 08:43 PM

And telepathy isn't a divination effect? Last I checked, it was.

It's a special quality and definitely can be a divination.

But, please could you direct me to the language you recommended that I re-read. That way your point will be made and I can be satisfied that I can limit Mindsight within the rules.

NNescio

2011-05-30, 08:43 PM

I was aware that "Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked." but not that stone or lead blocked other divinations.

There's also the Detect Alignment spells, and the infamous halfing lead sheet.

:belkar: Stop oppressing my culture, you ethnocentric bitch!

isotunknown

2011-05-31, 05:43 AM

There's also the Detect Alignment spells, and the infamous halfing lead sheet.

:belkar: Stop oppressing my culture, you ethnocentric bitch!

Indeed, it is true that some divinations have limiting factors in their descriptions, such as many of the detect spells which say "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it."

The reason, I believe, they add this language to those spells is precisely because they are not subject to a general rule limiting all divinations, but rather specific and explicit limitations for some divinations.

Saintheart

2011-05-31, 10:52 AM

Tie it in some way to Concentration, making it harder to maintain as an "always on" feature?

Either that, or make your dungeons more than 100 feet x 100 feet across. Mindsight's area of effect means it should not be used in Red Hand of Doom, for example. Or any dungeon where the McGuffin is living and can be identified out from other types and subtypes of creature in the room. That's the principal problem with Mindsight -- not that it allows your characters to never be surprised, but that in these sorts of situations it assists the "blast through the maze" approach to locating people. At least Divination is not always on, the guy the subject of the spell can move or not be where the spell said he was a minute or two ago.

faceroll

2011-05-31, 06:05 PM

So what? How much of your game is just close range ambushes?

Dungeon crawls with corridors rarely longer than 60 feet long. I think 120 feet is the max of our battle map, and our gaming table is roughly 6 feet x 6 feet. That's not even the length of a single long range spell.

It's been a really big issue in my games. I simply let my players know that if they take it, expect monsters that are dangerous to be prepared for that stuff.

No, but I've played a character with it before. We were facing quite a few shapeshifters throughout the game and most of the party were at a loss as to who we could trust and if the people we met were who they said they were.

Taking mindsight really helped us out. I was able to work out who the main enemies were and stopped us from getting ambushed by roof top assassins. It didn't help when a group of drunken sailors started on us, and it didn't help when I started a fight with a Druid in the form of a cat (I thought it was another trick by the enemy)

I don't see how any aspect of mindsight can really make a dm's life that hard. So you know who's in the next room. So does the rogue with his listen check. You know your about to be ambushed on the road, so does the scout with his high spot. So you know that human is actually a disguised elf, so does the true seeing wizard. About the only feature it gives what you can't find out another way is the targets INT score.

Those are opposed rolls. Many monsters come with (an option, with slight rebuilding) great move silent/hide checks just because they have 1.5 to 2 times the number of HD as their CR. Mindsight is auto-detect. I have issues with anything that gets to auto-success levels, largely because it leads to contrivances. Certain classes of encounters are entirely trivialized. Such as dungeons and dragons. I play with dice for a reason, and I play D&D for the dungeons and dragons.

Ah, you may not have realised it but you don't have a problem with the ability, you have a problem with the player. What your player is requesting (consistent updates of every creature within 120") is the equivelent of a player saying "I have eyes so I want a description of every single thing I see right down to the smallest speck of dust"

It's not how things are done. When the PCs enter a room you describe anything significant, the same thing with mindsight, inform the player that if anything out of the ordinary occurs you will let him know about it (like a very high INT or a creature that should not be there) and other than that he shouldn't need to ask. That way the most he needs to ask about is what's in the next room!

It's no different than a rogue searching every 5ft square for traps. Cautious rogues get to keep all their fingers. I mean, it's what I expect someone to do when they take the Prying Eyes spell or pick up Mindsight.

However, you don't get that.

Read the feat again, in the wilderness, you get "There's practically a carpet of animals blanketing your area, none of them have an Int higher than 2". That's ALL YOU GET.

Also, re-read Telepathy, and what blocks it, please. You're not reading minds from several levels above you. That much stone, alone, would block. Far less, if there were any metal deposits in the area.

Wilderness animals are very rarely a threat by ECL 6, unless you don't know what you're doing. If your DM is spamming advanced horrid dire animals, spam Ray of Stupidity.

Thiyr

2011-05-31, 07:27 PM

Dungeon crawls with corridors rarely longer than 60 feet long. I think 120 feet is the max of our battle map, and our gaming table is roughly 6 feet x 6 feet. That's not even the length of a single long range spell.

It's been a really big issue in my games. I simply let my players know that if they take it, expect monsters that are dangerous to be prepared for that stuff.

Just for clarification, does every part of game take place on the mat, or is it mostly used in combat? If you're using it for everything, it's a bigger issue than if you're only using it to neaten combat up.

Those are opposed rolls. Many monsters come with (an option, with slight rebuilding) great move silent/hide checks just because they have 1.5 to 2 times the number of HD as their CR. Mindsight is auto-detect. I have issues with anything that gets to auto-success levels, largely because it leads to contrivances. Certain classes of encounters are entirely trivialized. Such as dungeons and dragons. I play with dice for a reason, and I play D&D for the dungeons and dragons.

I'd like to note, the last example he gave was very much not an opposed roll. And the other examples of opposed rolls could be covered just as much by blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, touchsight, and other similar abilities. And conveniently, enough monsters (including dragons) come with the same auto-win options that the party does. And when enemies have hide/move silent checks that are that much higher than the party, a good chunk of the party just plain can't beat said check.

To be honest, the only real difference here is that the party has to make its abilities count for more in the long term against different opponents, while monsters come and go session by session, and if the ability crops up once, it's worthwhile. It's a level of investment thing. So mindsense is great for PCs, but a bit less worthwhile for monsters unless they're fighting a ton of stealthy/invisible PCs. Which is why I say "Let the PCs enjoy what they worked to get, but don't forget that it isn't an auto-win".

It's no different than a rogue searching every 5ft square for traps. Cautious rogues get to keep all their fingers. I mean, it's what I expect someone to do when they take the Prying Eyes spell or pick up Mindsight.

Exactly. But as far as I've seen in my group, just as tons of time is wasted here, tons of time would be wasted if, whenever the rogue searched, they had to specify each square. Generally, we go with the "search the room, make a roll, save half an hour" route.

Wilderness animals are very rarely a threat by ECL 6, unless you don't know what you're doing. If your DM is spamming advanced horrid dire animals, spam Ray of Stupidity.

I disagree here, for two reasons. One: said prep isn't even close to guaranteed for every party, it only takes one monster out of the fight at a time, and if you can only take one down at a time, numbers more than one can be dangerous if not treated carefully, like any other threatening encounter. Two: Why would they need to be spamming them to be a threat? Wading through multiple combats isn't required to be threatening, and just because you get attacked by animals once doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen again unless special circumstances are revealed. If you're making your way to the dungeon of doom, and on the way you're waylaid by unexpectedly large dire bears or something, you don't get a chance to prepare your countermeasures.

classy one

2011-05-31, 08:49 PM

Where is mindsight found?

I believe the power cloudmind can mask any perception including mindsense and lifesense, even though it doesn't explicitly say so. That being said it is only a 3rd level power that allows a will save has limited range and only targets one person. That means the person using it would have to have forehand knowledge that that specific PC has it, somehow be out of range AND he has has to fail it's save. Might not be too practical.

Mass cloud mind is much more workable as it hits many targets and is a 6th level power.

Debatable if mind black will work. Would you still detect an empty mind?

druid91

2011-05-31, 08:59 PM

How to beat it? Simply ignore it. Make your ambush so obvious and audacious that detecting it is beside the point.

For instance, plane shifting a massive rock the prime material from the Astral.

After placing Shock troopers on the surface.

Saintheart

2011-05-31, 09:32 PM

Where is mindsight found?

Lords of Madness. The relative obscurity of the sourcebook is (invariably) makes it difficult for core or extended core to deal with it.

Darth_Versity

2011-06-01, 10:38 AM

Those are opposed rolls. Many monsters come with (an option, with slight rebuilding) great move silent/hide checks just because they have 1.5 to 2 times the number of HD as their CR. Mindsight is auto-detect. I have issues with anything that gets to auto-success levels, largely because it leads to contrivances.

I know exacly what you mean. Like when a player focuses on HIde/Move Silent and would get them so high no monster could even hope to beat their rolls. Then the creature has blindsence and auto detects them with no roll!

Always remember that when in battle you should use your enemies tactics against them. This is not a game of Player vs DM, its a game of PC vs Monster. If the PC's have a way to use the monsters own tricks against them, then that is a good tactic on the PC's part.

Certain classes of encounters are entirely trivialized. Such as dungeons and dragons.

If I ever face a dragon that hides away in its own dungeon trying to avoid the party then I will laugh myself silly before kicking his ass. Dragons do not hide, they dont sneak. They stand bold as brass (or copper, or green, take your pick) and laugh at the puny mortals who dared enter their lair and says "Well, dinner has finally arrived"

If a dragon has fallen back on sneaking then they already know they cant win and activate their escape plan. A dragon who tries hiding from the party is like a wizard without contingency, wasted!

It's no different than a rogue searching every 5ft square for traps. Cautious rogues get to keep all their fingers. I mean, it's what I expect someone to do when they take the Prying Eyes spell or pick up Mindsight.

I think Thiyr pretty much covered this. If you make the rogue roll for every single 5ft square in the dungeon then something is very wrong.

Wilderness animals are very rarely a threat by ECL 6, unless you don't know what you're doing. If your DM is spamming advanced horrid dire animals, spam Ray of Stupidity.

I think the point is that every single animal that covers the forest floor has the animal type and either 1 or 2 INT, so to mindsight they are all identical. So when a Dire Bear comes bursting out roaring, or 3 Dire Tigers sudden charge from seperate directions, the Mindsight is going to be useless.

It is a good feat, adn if you have telepathy its a no brainer, but it is no more pwerful than blindsight/sense and does not prove that dificuilt for a DM who just takes a moment to think about how it affects his game.

classy one

2011-06-01, 04:19 PM

Lords of Madness. The relative obscurity of the sourcebook is (invariably) makes it difficult for core or extended core to deal with it.

Hmm you mean the book of aberrations? The one with an illithid on it? I don't see it on here. Feat index says it should be on pg 126 but all see a page on tsochar society.

You sure it is the same book?

olentu

2011-06-01, 04:25 PM

Hmm you mean the book of aberrations? The one with an illithid on it? I don't see it on here. Feat index says it should be on pg 126 but all see a page on tsochar society.

You sure it is the same book?

It is on page 126 left column about half way down. It is the section above the words tsochar society.

classy one

2011-06-01, 05:00 PM

It is on page 126 left column about half way down. It is the section above the words tsochar society.

Ah that is obscure. How do you qualify for it then? Like be a telepath?

Greenish

2011-06-01, 05:06 PM

Ah that is obscure. How do you qualify for it then? Like be a telepath?Usual ways include a dip to Mindbender (100' telepathy at first level, CArc.) or the Telepath (psion) ACF from Mind's Eye. Tiefling Incarnate ACF and the Xedu Crown soulmeld from MoI can also get telepathy.

mucco

2011-06-01, 05:38 PM

*cough* I don't think mindsight is THAT overpowered. It's strong, but it's also DM-dependant. I'm playing in a campaign where one PC has it, and am currently DMing one where one PC has Touchsight (stronger, IMO) and another has Lifesense (stronger as well). It does make them immune to most surprise attacks.

To obviate, for important encounters where I decided I needed stealth able to bypass those, I homebrewed a feat. Dark Soul, prereq. Darkstalker, you can't be sensed with any ability like the ones above, while hiding. Thus, assuring that you NEED to Spot it to find it. Now it's easy enough for me to make something that's undetectable for them, be it ethereal (touchsight), undead (lifesense)/mindless or having those feats. Might want to do something similar.

For everything else, let the Mindsight player know the relevant bits only. He'll feel rewarded and it won't slow down the game.

Aspenor

2011-06-01, 05:40 PM

Easy, require the player to have line of sight. No, you can't see people through walls anymore with it.

Problem solved.

Incanur

2011-06-01, 06:33 PM

I had a PC with this feat. It kept me on my toes but didn't meaningfully hurt the game. I did rule that mindblank stopped it.

faceroll

2011-06-01, 09:52 PM

I know exacly what you mean. Like when a player focuses on HIde/Move Silent and would get them so high no monster could even hope to beat their rolls. Then the creature has blindsence and auto detects them with no roll!

Darkstalker.
Back to making checks.

Always remember that when in battle you should use your enemies tactics against them. This is not a game of Player vs DM, its a game of PC vs Monster. If the PC's have a way to use the monsters own tricks against them, then that is a good tactic on the PC's part.

No, it's part of 3x's horrible game design.

If I ever face a dragon that hides away in its own dungeon trying to avoid the party then I will laugh myself silly before kicking his ass. Dragons do not hide, they dont sneak. They stand bold as brass (or copper, or green, take your pick) and laugh at the puny mortals who dared enter their lair and says "Well, dinner has finally arrived"

If a dragon has fallen back on sneaking then they already know they cant win and activate their escape plan. A dragon who tries hiding from the party is like a wizard without contingency, wasted!

Mindsight lets you see a dragon that you wouldn't know is there from 100 feet away, which could be a day or two of dungeon crawling. At the very least, it buys the PCs as much pre-buff time as they need. At most, it lets them entirely re-equip themselves for facing off against a dragon.

And before you get into a bunch of what ifs and crap, what if I don't want to run that? What if I just want to run a moderately difficult dungeon crawl with no special time constraints? Divinations require spell slots, which, for most of the game, are actually pretty important. I've never played in a game where a wizard's slots weren't a limiting factor.

I think Thiyr pretty much covered this. If you make the rogue roll for every single 5ft square in the dungeon then something is very wrong.

Those are the rules, and if a rogue wanted to roll for every roll, he may. Though I would suggest he take 10, 12, or 20, depending on how much time/resources he wants to devote to searching. Typically, for a room, I'll have a set of numbers for how much time the rogue takes, the party takes, etc. for searching a room. They're simple calculations.

[quote]I think the point is that every single animal that covers the forest floor has the animal type and either 1 or 2 INT, so to mindsight they are all identical. So when a Dire Bear comes bursting out roaring, or 3 Dire Tigers sudden charge from seperate directions, the Mindsight is going to be useless.

Well, mindsight does allow the player to avoid the surprise round there, but very rarely is a dire bear or 3 dire tigers a threat to the party. Hide From Animals is exceptionally cheap and easy to get. Animals are rarely a threat to any party above 3rd or 4th level, unless you totally ignore the CR guidelines.

It is a good feat, adn if you have telepathy its a no brainer, but it is no more pwerful than blindsight/sense and does not prove that dificuilt for a DM who just takes a moment to think about how it affects his game.

It requires far more than a moment. It requires me to think about where every single monster is within 100 feet of a PC, and for some places, that can be more than 100 creatures. Have you ever run a dungeon or a tower?

Blindsight/sense requires line of effect. Mindsight doesn't. Huuuge difference.

Easy, require the player to have line of sight. No, you can't see people through walls anymore with it.

Problem solved.

That is a great solution.

Darth_Versity

2011-06-02, 01:31 AM

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-06-02, 02:32 AM

Mindsight lets you see a dragon that you wouldn't know is there from 100 feet away, which could be a day or two of dungeon crawling. At the very least, it buys the PCs as much pre-buff time as they need. At most, it lets them entirely re-equip themselves for facing off against a dragon. If you aren't aware of a dragon 100' away, then there's something seriously wrong with your senses.

And before you get into a bunch of what ifs and crap, what if I don't want to run that? What if I just want to run a moderately difficult dungeon crawl with no special time constraints? Divinations require spell slots, which, for most of the game, are actually pretty important. I've never played in a game where a wizard's slots weren't a limiting factor. Then we must be playing different games. Are you *sure* you're playing D&D 3.5? The one with Rope Trick and MMM in it? The one whose wizards break the game by accident? The one who can tell you exactly where the dragon is, what his name is, how many scales are on his nose, and what his sexual preferences are?

Well, mindsight does allow the player to avoid the surprise round there, but very rarely is a dire bear or 3 dire tigers a threat to the party. Hide From Animals is exceptionally cheap and easy to get. Animals are rarely a threat to any party above 3rd or 4th level, unless you totally ignore the CR guidelines.Then you haven't been very clever with template-stacking to provide a real challenge to the party...

Furthermore, you can do just the same in a city. A high-level assassin is not notabally more intelligent than your average citizen. You won't have any way of knowing which of the HUNDREDS if not thousands is the assassin, or even that there IS one among the throng which is overwhelming your senses that he is a CR 15 encounter, as opposed to the 1st level commoners around.

It requires far more than a moment. It requires me to think about where every single monster is within 100 feet of a PC, and for some places, that can be more than 100 creatures. Have you ever run a dungeon or a tower? Yes, frequently. And run with Mindsight, both as a player and as a GM. It isn't as game-breaking as you seem to think it is. It might let you spot an ambush up the road. Fine. Odds are, one of the party members would've made a Spot check anyways. All it really does is negate the surprise round.

What you need to *NOT* let the player do is use it as a right to know where every last detail in every last part of his range is.

"You sense dozens of intelligent life forms within your reach, none of them more than average intelligence" is perfectly acceptable. No need to go into details and precision. Just keep it in mind when setting ambushes, or when it matters that he knows there's someone there or not. That's it.

NineThePuma

2011-06-02, 02:36 AM

The one who can tell you exactly where the dragon is, what his name is, how many scales are on his nose, and what his sexual preferences are?

:smallconfused: That ones easy. "any living, corporeal creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)"

Zale

2011-06-02, 02:40 AM

Unleash the Pixie/Half-Dragons! :furious:

NNescio

2011-06-02, 02:44 AM

And the Half-white-dragon Red Dragons. Those can be rather... shocking.

ericgrau

2011-06-02, 04:00 AM

Enlarged persisted barrier ignoring detect thoughts is a bit nuts.

How about you downgrade it to at will actual detect thoughts, minus the round 3 abilities. Add a minimum level of 7 to the requirements if it doesn't already have it. The PC must concentrate (a standard action each round) to keep it on, and most walls but not most doors stop the ability (see spell description). Besides barrier issues, making it an SLA opens up the ability to immunities and lead-lined things. Range is a 60' cone, so it might be 1d8 rounds before a PC doing a general sweep senses a nearby foe. Regardless of when he pings it's an additional round to pinpoint his exact location, provided that he stays within the cone.

NineThePuma

2011-06-02, 04:04 AM

Mind sight requires that you have native telepathy. the 'standard' method of getting it requires level 6 already.

faceroll

2011-06-03, 01:39 AM

The CR of a Dragon assumes the players know they are coming against a dragon and are prepared for such a battle. The game designers said so themselves. Dragons are the ultimate enemy in this game and should never be used as a random encounter in a dungeon. If your in a dragons lair, you know you are in in a dragons lair.

If for some reason you use the dragon as a random find that the PC's werent prepared for, the CR should be 3 or 4 higher.

Relevant rule citation, please. Otherwise, that looks like RAI.

I dont even need to quote the rest as this line sums it up perfect. If you have to play by the rules with no house ruling regardless of how stupid it is, then why are you complaining about Mindsight. Its a feat that works within the rules, it doesn't break anything it just gives you a headache. If you want to house rule it then dont use 'its the rules' as a defence for other things when they slow down or ruin the game.

So you advocate that Mindsight isn't problematic because you can house rule solutions to those problems? That is denying the antecedent, sir.

If you aren't aware of a dragon 100' away, then there's something seriously wrong with your senses.

Do you really play everything on flat, featureless plains? I love adult dragons because you can fit them a lot of places, you can give them 2 sorc levels for +1 CR, then throw on loredrake and spell hoarding for 7th level wizard casting. Plus, with triple treasure, they know that they have to be somewhat discrete.

Then we must be playing different games. Are you *sure* you're playing D&D 3.5? The one with Rope Trick and MMM in it? The one whose wizards break the game by accident? The one who can tell you exactly where the dragon is, what his name is, how many scales are on his nose, and what his sexual preferences are?

What does being able to rest safely have anything to do with this discussion? Spam divinations while holed up in a Rope Trick?

Then you haven't been very clever with template-stacking to provide a real challenge to the party...

There are very few templates to add to animals that keep them animals and increase their dangerousness any more than advancing their hit dice would. Half fiend is a dangerous template because it adds wings and blasphemy, not because of the +4 str.

Furthermore, you can do just the same in a city. A high-level assassin is not notabally more intelligent than your average citizen. You won't have any way of knowing which of the HUNDREDS if not thousands is the assassin, or even that there IS one among the throng which is overwhelming your senses that he is a CR 15 encounter, as opposed to the 1st level commoners around.

Cool, urban environments. So far, you've come up with two settings out of almost a dozen listed environments where you can foil Mindsight by using multiple targets. Remember, a creature's mind is as obvious as looking at the creature visually when using mindsight. Once the PC is aware of who the assassin is, he can simply recognize his alpha waves or whatever.

Yes, frequently. And run with Mindsight, both as a player and as a GM. It isn't as game-breaking as you seem to think it is. It might let you spot an ambush up the road. Fine. Odds are, one of the party members would've made a Spot check anyways. All it really does is negate the surprise round.

It makes me hate DMing. That is game breaking, imo.

What you need to *NOT* let the player do is use it as a right to know where every last detail in every last part of his range is.

"You sense dozens of intelligent life forms within your reach, none of them more than average intelligence" is perfectly acceptable. No need to go into details and precision. Just keep it in mind when setting ambushes, or when it matters that he knows there's someone there or not. That's it.

Oh yeah, if we houserule it, it's fine. Like any other broken mechanic.

Greenish

2011-06-03, 01:42 AM

Remember, a creature's mind is as obvious as looking at the creature visually when using mindsight. Once the PC is aware of who the assassin is, he can simply recognize his alpha waves or whatever.Really? As written, Mindsight only tells you Int score and type.

I love adult dragons because you can fit them a lot of places, you can give them 2 sorc levels for +1 CRIsn't sorcerer an associated class for dragons?

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-06-03, 01:50 AM

Do you really play everything on flat, featureless plains? I love adult dragons because you can fit them a lot of places, you can give them 2 sorc levels for +1 CR, then throw on loredrake and spell hoarding for 7th level wizard casting. Plus, with triple treasure, they know that they have to be somewhat discrete. And quite capable of dealing with any unruly Mindsight individual. If for no other reason than making sure that knowing about the presence of the dragon in no way obviates the challenge.

What does being able to rest safely have anything to do with this discussion? Spam divinations while holed up in a Rope Trick? You said:
I've never played in a game where a wizard's slots weren't a limiting factor. My response stands. We are clearly playing two different games if you've ever seen a wizard's spell slots as a remotely limiting factor. Either no one in your group knows how to properly utilize one, does not care to properly utilize one, you have have houserules or other standing agreements with the players to prevent it.

There are very few templates to add to animals that keep them animals and increase their dangerousness any more than advancing their hit dice would. Half fiend is a dangerous template because it adds wings and blasphemy, not because of the +4 str. Paragon and Psudonatural both come to mind...

Cool, urban environments. So far, you've come up with two settings out of almost a dozen listed environments where you can foil Mindsight by using multiple targets. Remember, a creature's mind is as obvious as looking at the creature visually when using mindsight. Once the PC is aware of who the assassin is, he can simply recognize his alpha waves or whatever. So your dungeons and caves are barren of life too? Must be running in a different world than the one I typically use. Unless you're in an undead-infested area where you damn well KNOW there ain't nothing living for a few miles, you're gonna have the same 'background noise' problem.

Heck, just by having a few thousand kobolds living in your cave/dungeon system is going to play havoc with trying to pick out individual targets. Because Mindsight cannot tell the difference between the basic Kobold and the orc with Barbarian and Frenzied Berzerker levels, capable of doing several hundred damage in a swing. Which of the thousands of mind-glows you sense is the one who can insta-gib you?

It makes me hate DMing. That is game breaking, imo. If your party comes up with a clever way of avoiding ambushes makes you hate DMing, then you never want to DM for my group.

Oh yeah, if we houserule it, it's fine. Like any other broken mechanic. That's not a houserule, THAT IS HOW THE FEAT WORKS!

Greenish

2011-06-03, 01:53 AM

Because Mindsight cannot tell the difference between the basic Kobold and the orc with Barbarian and Frenzied Berzerker levels, capable of doing several hundred damage in a swing.Mindsight also can't tell the difference between that venerable dragonwrought kobold commoner 1 and the Old White Dragon it's serving.

Thiyr

2011-06-03, 02:21 AM

Do you really play everything on flat, featureless plains? I love adult dragons because you can fit them a lot of places, you can give them 2 sorc levels for +1 CR, then throw on loredrake and spell hoarding for 7th level wizard casting. Plus, with triple treasure, they know that they have to be somewhat discrete.

True though this may be, the point seemed more to be that you don't just randomly stumble onto a dragon. Dragons specifically are enemies that have their presence very heavily lampshaded beforehand typically, either by the dragon saying "screw you guys, I'm just gonna kill you now", or through the effects their presence have on everything around them. You know that it'll be close, and that's the point when you prep for it. Knowing where it is helps, of course, and it means that the dragon has a harder time ambushing you (though far from an impossible one. Do me a favor and look up their fly speed. Mindsight doesn't help when it comes from above while you're in the forest from 400ish feet away)

What does being able to rest safely have anything to do with this discussion? Spam divinations while holed up in a Rope Trick? [quote]

I think it was more to do with the fact that it makes the notion of spell slots being limiters a non-issue. You had said you have never played in a game where spell slots were a non-issue. And one can argue that being able to rest that safely is another auto-success situation. No more ambushes in the night, oopsies.

[quote]Cool, urban environments. So far, you've come up with two settings out of almost a dozen listed environments where you can foil Mindsight by using multiple targets. Remember, a creature's mind is as obvious as looking at the creature visually when using mindsight. Once the PC is aware of who the assassin is, he can simply recognize his alpha waves or whatever.

first: You can't recognize someone like that with this feat. You can see their int score, but that's like saying someone's wearing a red shirt. two people with the same int score seem the same that way. The description was that their type and int are "as obvious and their race and clothing". But saying the assassin's an elf in a robe doesn't help when you're in the middle of an elven priest convention.

second: which dozen listen environments? Honestly, I can't think of an environment that -couldn't- fool mindsense in some way. It's just that there's no one automatically successful counter to it.

It makes me hate DMing. That is game breaking, imo.

We've gathered that you dislike the feat. But that doesn't make it game breaking. Your-fun breaking, perhaps, but not game-breaking.

Oh yeah, if we houserule it, it's fine. Like any other broken mechanic.

The description given was actually, and this was the -entire point of their post- as far as I could tell, giving the player -almost exactly what the feat says to give them-. It gives you location, int score, and type. While that description wasn't precise about it (which bogs down time, the big issue that this thread has been dealing with), it said how many are in view ("a dozen"), how intelligent they are ("of average intelligence"). The only thing missing was type, which changes all of three or four words. That's so small of a point, I can only see it barely qualifying as a house rule. And if we're talking about the rules in that strict of a regard, then it is hardly worth noting that this breaks your fun, which is in no way a part of the rules (even if the rules can affect that). That said, I disagree, and feel that your previous opinion a valid point to bring up, instead of thinking that this level of precision matters in a discussion of the practical dealings of this feat.

NineThePuma

2011-06-03, 02:29 AM

Mindsight also can't tell the difference between that venerable dragonwrought kobold commoner 1 and the Old White Dragon it's serving.

This. It also can't tell the size of the creature =D

Greenish

2011-06-03, 02:30 AM

This. It also can't tell the size of the creature =DHmm… It does tell you in which square the creature is, as written.

NineThePuma

2011-06-03, 02:45 AM

True. I guess there is that.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-06-03, 02:52 AM

Hmm… It does tell you in which square the creature is, as written.

All the squares a creature occupies, or just the square the mind is in?

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-06-03, 04:25 AM

All the squares a creature occupies, or just the square the mind is in?

I believe that RAW is all squares, but the mind-square only certainly is more sensible, but eh, most houserules are.:smalltongue:

candycorn

2011-06-03, 04:30 PM

If I ever face a dragon that hides away in its own dungeon trying to avoid the party then I will laugh myself silly before kicking his ass. Dragons do not hide, they dont sneak. They stand bold as brass (or copper, or green, take your pick) and laugh at the puny mortals who dared enter their lair and says "Well, dinner has finally arrived"

If a dragon has fallen back on sneaking then they already know they cant win and activate their escape plan. A dragon who tries hiding from the party is like a wizard without contingency, wasted!

I was pointed to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133571&highlight=dragon) back when I first joined this thread, when I said that dragons weren't dangerous.

You'll note upon reading that a dragon that hides away in its lair can be very dangerous, indeed.

Saintheart

2011-06-05, 08:20 AM

All the squares a creature occupies, or just the square the mind is in?

...If it's an old white dragon, it probably has a mind occupying more than one square. Kind of a giveaway? :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon

2011-06-05, 02:42 PM

All the squares a creature occupies, or just the square the mind is in?
D&D 3.5 doesn't distinguish spaces for head and body, so larger size is going to represent the mind occupying all the creature squares. Astral Projection is a certain way to mess with DMs where Mindsight is concerned, though. :smallwink:

erikun

2011-06-05, 03:36 PM

So, the feat tells you the location, type, and Intelligence of everything within telepathy range?
And I'm assuming that it doesn't have the usual 3-round warmup?

Besides defeating ambushes, I don't see how it becomes game-breakingly overpowering. Sure, you could tell where everything is inside a (very small) dungeon, but does that really help you much? It doesn't spot traps, it doesn't get rid of guards, and it doesn't tell you the floor layout of the place. It only allows you to avoid guard partols until you start making noise.

I suppose that, if your party doesn't mind sitting around in the open, in hostle enemy territory for several hours, you might be able to follow the paths of the various minds wandering around to get an idea of the general layout of the place. It doesn't tell you all the passages, though, or any locked doors and traps. It certainly wouldn't be accurate, or at least I'd require a Profession: Trigonometrist to accurately place their three-dimentional movements on a paper map.

The only "house rule" I would bother with is that a "mind" takes up the same space regardless of creature. This would mainly be due to it not being defined very well, and as others have pointed out, would give information that Mindsight shouldn't be providing.

isotunknown

2011-06-06, 01:56 PM

Thanks for all the thoughtful commentary.

FYI: Based on Gamer's Girl's proposal, my group has agreed to modify her description of Mindsight as follows.

Mindsight
You can use your telepathic ability to learn more about the environment and creatures within the range of your telepathy.

Prerequisite: Telepathy special quality.

Benefits: This feat scales with your level.

1: You gain a mental form of sight out to your maximum Telepathy range. This sight works like Darkvision with the following difference: you may locate all creatures within your line of sight with an intelligence score. If you cannot see the creature with another sense, you can only determine the square it is in, but that creature still has total concealment. Magical darkness and other effects do not affect Mindsight.

5: You can perceive several observable characteristics about each being detected with Mindsight, including the being’s type and Intelligence score. You need not take any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is as obvious to you as the being’s appearance and clothing would be to eyesight. You also gain Touchsight out to 1/3 of your total Telepathy range.

9: Your Touchsight field extends to 1/2 your total Telepathy range. Additionally, you can now determine the psionic or spellcasting capabilities of any intelligence within your Touchsight range. This does not reveal any other information beyond if the intelligence is capable of casting spells or manifesting powers. Spell-like and Psi-like abilities are revealed (and can be distinguished from 'true' spellcasting) but Supernatural abilities are not.

13: Your Mindsight ability no longer is subject to line of sight - it can penetrate barriers, although 10 feet of stone, wood, dirt, 1 foot of common metal, or a thin sheet of lead still blocks it. Your Touchsight ability remains unable to penetrate barriers.

17: Your Touchsight field extends to your Telepathy range. Your Touchsight ability remains unable to penetrate barriers.