Spell Points Variant

[pwykersotz]

So, I'm considering using the Spell Points variant on the SRD in my game. Has anyone tried this to any positive effect before? I'm currently having a dispute with one of my players (one of my best friends) about the viability of the system and how it compares to Psionics, but mainly how it compares straight up to spell slots.

The primary disagreement is on whether the total power loss is worth it. Wizards get only 232 spell points with this variant while if it were a straight across trade from slots to points they would get 324.

My argument is that being able to cast 14 9th level spells in a single day far outweighs a global power nerf because you can't scale upwards (without feats) with slots, but it's a hefty loss all the same.

Has anyone had practical experience with this system?

[CheshireCatAW]

It is a negative trade for the Wizard. Spell slots would let them more than points would. This is not to say it wouldn't be balanced. I tried it in one of my games and it worked well enough. We ended up going back to the Vancian system so as to give Psionics it's own shtick.

[lesser_minion]

You don't actually lose any power -- in a direct trade, many of the spell slots you're trading in weren't actually of any use to you. You're effectively swapping a few peashooters for a Death Star.

Wizards gain even more, since all of the disadvantages of their normal casting rules are removed -- but none of their benefits. Spell points as presented in the SRD are generally considered to constitute a net gain in power.

[pwykersotz]

It's odd that the first two posts so eloquently state the opposite sides of the problem. My friend agrees with you, CheshireCatAW, whereas I'm firmly in the camp of lesser_minion.

Does anyone see a way to equalize this? Maybe give more spell points but find a way to decrease the massive flexibility they gained?

[ericgrau]

Casting 28 low level spells isn't that spectacular. Ya spell points are head and shoulders better simply because you can cast more spells that matter and you gain the spontaneous flexibility that wizards normally lack. So all plusses and more, virtually no minuses.

Someone should sit don't and calculate how many spell points your highest 2-3 levels of spells would convert into. Then I might be convinced otherwise. At the very least you need to omit level 1-2 spells that could be easily replaced with cheap magic items. And more than that at higher levels.

If you wanted to limit flexibility you might have the spell disappear and lose the spell points. But you'd get slightly more spells prepared to compensate. Seems needlessly complicated though. Or keep it as is but reduce the number of spells prepared.

[Ernir]

The SP variant is, in my humble opinion, bad. And this is coming from a guy who prefers point-based magic.

First, there are power issues with respect to classes unaffected by the change. Casters gain a dramatic increase in per-day flexibility at the minor expense of endurance (ignoring the fact that the increased flexibility results in less wasted spell power. The final effect might be the opposite).

Second, it messes up the balance of the classes that use the variant - notably, the prepared casters get the fat end of the stick, retaining their ability to re-choose their arsenal every day, while gaining greater than Sorcerer-esque flexibility in how they use it. Meanwhile, the spontaneous casters are stuck with their crappy number of spells known, and their old advantage (more spell slots per day) is largely lost. Compare the numbers of SP/day the Wizards and Sorcerers get. Compare the numbers of spells prepared/known they get. Does this look fair?

Third, it is a hack applied to a set of spells that was designed for vancian mechanics. The biggest issue being that the core spells are designed to scale with caster level and be balanced according to spell level, while under an SP system, the number of spell points spent on a spell determine their power. An additional hack was made to have blasty-type spells not automatically scale. Which means that casting Stinking Cloud instead of Fireball just became a better idea than ever before...

Note that I may be biased. As you could see in the "A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting..." link I have in my signature, I've spent some time on making the core casters more point-based, using the psionic system rather than the UA Spell Point system. :smalltongue:

[Etrivar]

Second, it messes up the balance of the classes that use the variant - notably, the prepared casters get the fat end of the stick, retaining their ability to re-choose their arsenal every day, while gaining greater than Sorcerer-esque flexibility in how they use it. Meanwhile, the spontaneous casters are stuck with their crappy number of spells known, and their old advantage (more spell slots per day) is largely lost. Compare the numbers of SP/day the Wizards and Sorcerers get. Compare the numbers of spells prepared/known they get. Does this look fair?

This. This right here is why I don't like the system. Wizards get enough love as is. You don't need to go and take the one boon of sorcerery, spontaneity, and give it to the wizard. That's completely borked. :smallfurious:

[Big Fau]

I'm currently having a dispute with one of my players (one of my best friends) about the viability of the system and how it compares to Psionics, but mainly how it compares straight up to spell slots.

Someone posted something a while ago about Wizards not needing their bonus spells (not sure about the exact post though). If I can find that post, I'll repost it here (since Spell Points effectively cuts out bonus spells).

But that post was forever ago, so I can't guarantee it.

In general, Psionics is more balanced than the Spellpoint variant. But that's because a couple of reasons:


Psionics were designed to be weaker than spellcasting.
Psionics doesn't have as much support as spellcasting does.
Spell Points are a variant presented in UA, and thus compatible with every single support option that was given to spellcasters.
Spell Point, by mere extenstion of being a Vanican casting variant, was not playtested extensively enough to prevent exploits.
Wizards can learn more spells than a Psion can.
Sorcerers can learn more useful spells than a Psion can.
Psionics were actually playtested more than Core was as a whole.
Spell Points was a preview of the Psionic rules, much in the way Tome of Battle was a preview of 4E.



In other words: Don't use Spell Points, use Psionics.

[pirhos]

So, I'm considering using the Spell Points variant on the SRD in my game. Has anyone tried this to any positive effect before? I'm currently having a dispute with one of my players (one of my best friends) about the viability of the system and how it compares to Psionics, but mainly how it compares straight up to spell slots.

The primary disagreement is on whether the total power loss is worth it. Wizards get only 232 spell points with this variant while if it were a straight across trade from slots to points they would get 324.

My argument is that being able to cast 14 9th level spells in a single day far outweighs a global power nerf because you can't scale upwards (without feats) with slots, but it's a hefty loss all the same.

Has anyone had practical experience with this system?


We have used this system quite regularly, and the players all like it. I as the DM have had some questions with the unbalance it potentially creates. A wizard at 5th level with an int of 15 (non unreasonable to assume) you would normally only be able to cast 1 fireball at 5d6 damage. With spell points, that same wizard can cast 4 fireballs at 5d6. I acknowledge those are the only spells cast, but that is a lot of heavy damage for a 5th level character.

My counter point would be wizards have traditionally been under-powered at lower levels and over powered at higher levels (IMHO) and this gives them more power at lower levels.

The other thing I noticed at higher levels it gives the wizard more power in a single encounter, but potentially diminished over multiple encounters. But resource/spell management has always been something you need to work on with a wizard.

Over all, my experience has been good. It has given players more diversity in how they play their wizard, they have been happier with it and I as a DM have been able to balance it in the game. I would encourage the player to give it a try, I think they will find it gives them more capabilities.

[Xervous]

Third, it is a hack applied to a set of spells that was designed for vancian mechanics. The biggest issue being that the core spells are designed to scale with caster level and be balanced according to spell level, while under an SP system, the number of spell points spent on a spell determine their power. An additional hack was made to have blasty-type spells not automatically scale. Which means that casting Stinking Cloud instead of Fireball just became a better idea than ever before...


Spellcasters use their full normal caster level for determining the effects of their spells in this system, with one significant exception. Spells that deal a number of dice of damage based on caster level (such as magic missile, searing light, or lightning bolt) deal damage as if cast by a character of the minimum level of the class capable of casting the spell. Spells whose damage is partially based on caster level, but that don’t deal a number of dice of damage based on caster level (such as produce flame or an inflict spell) use the spellcaster’s normal caster level to determine damage. Use the character’s normal caster level for all other effects, including range and duration.

The reality of things is that blasting gets nerfed. Everything else stays pretty much the same.

[artan6966]

I use the spell points system that is in the DMG, but I tweak it a bit. I give the player character bonus spell points at levels that they gain a new spell level plus 1st level. The bonus is equal to the attribute modifier which the class bases its save mods from. WIzard - Int., Cleric - Wis, Paladin - Cha, etc.
So this would give a Wizard with an 18 Intelligence +4 spell points at levels 1, 3, 5, 9, 12, 15, and 18; or something like that (I think I got that correct). They also gain the amount of spell points that can be found on page 289 of the DMG.
But this is the kicker. If the class says that you have x number of spells at x level. This means that the caster must memorize or pray for that number of spells. These are set spells (or fixed spells) and cost the amount that is shown on page 289 of the DMG. The other spells, the ones that have not been memorized can still be cast, but the cost is at twice the amount listed on page 288 of the DMG, these are what I call free magics.
So a Wizard of 12th level would have 5 cantrips, 4 1st (2 sp), 3 2nd (3 sp), 3 3rd (5 sp), 3 4th (6 sp), 2 5th (7 sp) and 1 6th (9 sp). He would have 73 spell points. This same wizard has an Int of 20 that he has raised through magic, feats and ability mods. This gives him a +5 Int mod which gives him +30 bonus spell points. A total of 103 spell points.
The Wizard can cast those memorized spells any number of times up to his Int. Mod. as long as he has spell points to full them. Any material components must be readied when the Wizard wants to cast the spell. This component requirement might limit the number of times that the Wizard can cast the spell and the Int. Mod. limitation keeps the Wizard from casting powerful damage spells one right after the next. The sample Wizard above could only cast a Fireball spell 5 times during this active period before his next resting period. Casting a Fireball using different spell level slots still counts as the Int. mod. casting limitation.
I base spell point recovery on the character's Constitution modifier x 2 per hour of rest. So the higher the constution modifier, the more spell points can be recovered during a resting period, but a full rest stills recovers all spell points.

[EldritchWeaver]

We have used this system quite regularly, and the players all like it. I as the DM have had some questions with the unbalance it potentially creates. A wizard at 5th level with an int of 15 (non unreasonable to assume) you would normally only be able to cast 1 fireball at 5d6 damage. With spell points, that same wizard can cast 4 fireballs at 5d6. I acknowledge those are the only spells cast, but that is a lot of heavy damage for a 5th level character.

My counter point would be wizards have traditionally been under-powered at lower levels and over powered at higher levels (IMHO) and this gives them more power at lower levels.

The other thing I noticed at higher levels it gives the wizard more power in a single encounter, but potentially diminished over multiple encounters. But resource/spell management has always been something you need to work on with a wizard.

Over all, my experience has been good. It has given players more diversity in how they play their wizard, they have been happier with it and I as a DM have been able to balance it in the game. I would encourage the player to give it a try, I think they will find it gives them more capabilities.

Blasting is actually the weakest way to solve problems. The big problem is that Vancian casting isn't balanced to have at-will access to at least some basic capabilities. So effectively playing a Vancian caster is a resource management problem, where the player has to guess how many encounters he will have to tackle before he needs to rest. Bad guesses result in running out too early or not spending most of the resources and harmstring themselves. That's why I recommend Spheres of Power. It provides enough flexibility combined with staying power. If you concentrate on being a blaster, SoP makes it actually work well enough without being overpowered (but less optimized characters fall do behind in regards DPR. That's a problem with the low floor of class optimization, though).

[Grod_The_Giant]

To be fair, two of the three main problems (prepared casters gain way more than spontaneous, and blasting spells get even more hosed) are easy enough to solve. Make Wizards and their ilk prepare spells normally, spending points to prepare each one (but no points to unleash once readied), and remove that stupid clause about damage-dealing spells not scaling. Maybe add a cap on how many spells of your highest level you can cast each day and you should have something that's... if not perfectly fixed, at least much improved.

[StreamOfTheSky]

*Sees those hated words "Spell Points Variant"*
*Automated google-fu initiated*
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15043304&postcount=32

[Vaern]

I've never played in a group that uses a spell point variant, but I've always wanted to try it out.

For purposes of balance, I'd say allow spontaneous casters to use the spell point variant to allow them more flexibility when casting their spells, but restrict prepared casters to the standard Vancian casting.

If you want to allow prepared casters to use the spell point variant without turning them into the equivalent of spontaneous casters who can change their spell list every day, make them allocate their spell points when they prepare their spells. That is, when preparing spells they must specify that they're preparing to spend five points on one spell, then five points to cast the same spell a second time, three points on a different spell, and so forth. It is a bit more complicated than what is suggested, but it allows prepared casters to take some advantage of the increased flexibility without blurring the distinction between sorcerers and wizards.

[Sagetim]

I mean, I didn't read the spell point rules too deeply off the SRD just now, but they seem to be a slightly better version of the psionics rules. Better, in that there's only one psionic class that gets to know more than a set amount of powers (the Erudite, a back of the book class from Complete Psionics). The Psion, the go to when it comes to talking about psionics, has fewer power points per day at the start than the sorcerer, has a lower number of powers known total, and all in all, they do okay.

At least the Sorcerer has the robust options of everything under the sun to choose from for spells known, with only a very limited number of wizard only or sorcerer only options existing in the Wizard/Sorcerer list. As compared to Psionics, where the Psion has 6 different domains of powers that are exclusive to that flavor of Psion and require a feat for anyone else to grab, and the Ardent, whose mantles hold some unique capabilities as well.

Now, the one thing that psionics has over this system is staying power, in the long term. At level 1, a vancian wizard, spell point wizard, and psion have similar amounts of power usage per day available to them. You know, except that both wizards have cantrips and the psion just has to sigh in depression at his utter lack of cantrip like capability. In any case, the disparity in staying power only starts creeping in at level 2, with the Psion sliding ahead of Sorcerer in Power Points vs Spell Points (6 pp vs 5 sp). And from there, Psionics gradually just keeps getting more power points per day than any of the casters get spell points per day. Which makes sense, because even at minimum, the Sorcerer is going to know at Least 3 spells per spell level, while the Psion is stuck with...huh, 36 total. Time to go check some numbers....yeah, the Sorcerer only gets 31 spells known, 40 if you count cantrips, but...eh, it's 3.5 cantrips. Well, looks like the Sorcerer gets the short end of the stick here, in staying power and abilities known....at least until you compare the spells available to the sorcerer to the much more limited list of psionic powers that are out there. And the Sorcerer can tack on Sanctified or Corrupt spells, while the Psion is just left out of the alignment game for the most part.


TL;DR- Spell points are better than Power Points, for the most part. Because spells offer a much wider range of options than Psionic Powers. For wizards especially this is an increase in their versatility, because they can swap out what abilities they have access to each day, while both Sorcerers and Psions are stuck with a limited fixed list of things they know (with the Psion being better off than Sorcerer, Sometimes, because of the built in versatility of Psionic Powers).

Spell Points cap out at 232 for Wizards, and 249 for Sorcerers. Which means the Sorcerer has exactly enough more points per day to get 1 extra 9th level spell out. That's a pretty thin 'advantage' when you are stuck on a fixed list of known spells that can almost never be swapped out (and, well, if level 20 is the cap, cannot be swapped out ever again). Meanwhile, Psions are sitting pretty on 343 power points per day at 20, giving them slightly better staying power than a vancian caster. But the trade off there is that most powers don't directly duplicate spells (Energy Ball is no Fireball, for example). And while a few do, there's a much larger list of spells that you can draw from to cherry pick things that you don't need to augment for maximum effectiveness, like Cloudkill, Stinking Cloud, Grease, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Weird, Wish, Dominate Person, Hold Person, Animate Dead, etc. And those are just Player's Handbook spells, there's whole swaths of splatbooks with spells in them to potentially draw from.

So Spell Points are not bad. Even if you're only using the core 3 (Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, DMG) for some reason, you've still probably got enough spells to cherry pick some winners or great situationals out for usage on your wizard. And since you don't have to multi-prepare to cast multiple times, you can sit pretty with a batman's belt worth of tricks.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I love spell points conceptually but the rules in UA have issues. Wizard ends up with more non-0th spells known, the ability to swap spell known every day, a much stronger casting stat in return for ~5% more spell points at 20 (assuming 30 in casting stat). Wahoo?
It definitely needs a lot of work but I find it is more intuitive, probably because a lot of computer RPG use mana and spell points resemble mana quite a bit.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The sp variant is not very good at what it wants to do. Honestly, if you're interested in this kind of system Spheres of Power is a way better implementation

[Jormengand]

I suppose it was only a matter of time before this thread, as all threads about magic must, ended up in Spheres of Power. :smallsigh:

[ZamielVanWeber]

I honestly do not like SoP much. It is cool but it does not scratch the itch for casting that SP is trying to do.

A lazy fix I would recommend: prepared casters get bonus spells known and spontaneous casters get bonus spell points. So you either end up with a nice changing variety or an insane number of spells but not both.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I suppose it was only a matter of time before this thread, as all threads about magic must, ended up in Spheres of Power. :smallsigh:

The question was about spell point based alternate magic systems, SoP is on topic.

[Sagetim]

Spheres of Power is also Pathfinder, rather than 3.5, while Spell points are a 3.5 thing. So, you know, there's that.


Anyway, I'd suggest bumping Sorcerer up to keep pace with Psion's Power Points, honestly. While Sorcerers do have a superior list of abilities to draw from (spells vs psionic powers), spells aren't built with the Spell Point system in mind, so there aren't any genericized attack spells. Compare and contrast with Psionics, where we have Energy Missile, Energy Ray, Energy Cone, Energy Ball, Energy Bolt, etc etc. The Energy Powers all operate off a similar template, the second part of the name denotes the shape, while Energy tells you that when you manifest it, you get to pick one of four energy types, allowing you to pick elemental damage type on the fly and being possibly quite useful for letting you tailor your offense to your targets. Your mileage may vary on how useful that is, but it's pretty nice to have the choice, even if you keep using fire all the time.

Meanwhile, in the arcaneosphere, Sorcerer's have to pick spells that only do a set element, and can only get that kind of on the fly variety option by dumping a feat or more into Energy Substitution and eating a casting time increase, or by getting to Archmage and trading off one of their spell slots (in this case, lower their Spell Point cap).

In any case, Sorcerer having a Significant amount of Spell Points over a Wizard gives them some kind of competitive edge, instead of just being left behind in a burning building while everyone turns around and gives them the finger when they cry for help.

Also, on crunching the numbers a bit, if you gave the Sorcerer as many Spell Points as a Psion gets in Power Points, then they would maintain their ~50% higher resources per day as compared to Wizards. You could admittedly throw the Sorcerer a few more Spell Points to get them to a 50% greater amount than a Wizard, but whatever, Power Point amount is close enough.

[Gruftzwerg]

*Sees those hated words "Spell Points Variant"*
*Automated google-fu initiated*
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15043304&postcount=32

Agree fully to this.

Spell Point Variant totally breaks the balance for wizards.

Further, many DMs already have a hard time to tailor enough encounters and scenarios per day to drain the spellslots of a caster with regular rules. With SP variant, the DM will have even more problems to drain out the caster. He can't bait a certain spell anymore in a single day (e.g. Dispel Magic, so that a buffed NPC can have fun later at the day) which is a big annoyance for the DM (sure a sorc who selected the spell could do "that" too, but he is limited to "that" and can't switch spells every day as he likes).

And not to talk about the gap between casters and mundanes..
Anything that gives casters something without doing anything for mundanes is actually a **** move imho. Do they really need that extra flexibility on top of their cake?

[Sagetim]

Agree fully to this.

Spell Point Variant totally breaks the balance for wizards.

Further, many DMs already have a hard time to tailor enough encounters and scenarios per day to drain the spellslots of a caster with regular rules. With SP variant, the DM will have even more problems to drain out the caster. He can't bait a certain spell anymore in a single day (e.g. Dispel Magic, so that a buffed NPC can have fun later at the day) which is a big annoyance for the DM (sure a sorc who selected the spell could do "that" too, but he is limited to "that" and can't switch spells every day as he likes).

And not to talk about the gap between casters and mundanes..
Anything that gives casters something without doing anything for mundanes is actually a **** move imho. Do they really need that extra flexibility on top of their cake?

Yes, but Mundanes should have much nicer things too. Like Maneuvers.

[EldritchWeaver]

The question was about spell point based alternate magic systems, SoP is on topic.

I disagree with SoP being a spell point based magic system, at least in the same sense as psionics are. Spell points are used to limit more powerful effects, but many abilities are at-will in SoP. This makes SoP a hybrid between "cast until you run out of resources" and "cast as much as you want".