Dealing with Rope Trick.

[Pigkappa]

I'm DMing an Expedition to Castle Ravenloft campaign (but you don't need to know this campaign to answer to this thread).


The group has entered the castle today to look for some items in the catacombs. They had some trouble with a few undeads and the wizards wasted their high level spells, so they decided to rest. At 11 AM. The usual, annoying 15-minute adventuring day. They cast an extended rope trick (will last 14 hours and they can cast another one when that's over) and hid inside.

What's different this time is that they did so inside the castle. The castle is populated by several intelligent creatures that are likely to consider this an offense. The owner of the castle is a level 10 wizard (and he can cast Scrying, and sometimes does). There's also a wizard3/cleric3/true necromancer5 not far from their location, and a few other intelligent creatures in the castle. The PCs have sprung a few traps, killed a few undeads and cast Rope Trick not far from there, so the NPCs know their approximate location.

The necromancer is likely to check around with See Invisibility, so that she'll notice the Rope Trick is active. However, how can she attack the PCs while they're inside? Waiting 14 hours would be annoying and would give them time to prepare their spells again, which is something I'd like to avoid if possibile.
By RAW, I think a Dispel Magic spell on the invisible window wouldn't work. But there must be some way to take them off.

[Hirax]

Tracking them to the point of entry and simply setting up an ambush when they come out is generally the simplest thing to do. In a castle this should be trivial.

edit: if you describe the area where they cast it we could even lend ideas on how to ambush them. If they cast it in a corridor in particular you could be ultra nasty.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, dispel magic is a curious question. If you've judged that won't work, no big deal. There's Mass Make Manifest from Spell Compendium, Transdimensional Spell from Complete Arcane (and Complete Divine, and Unapproachable East). Or if you want to be mean, use Dimension Lock. They're on another plane, and now they're trapped for the duration of the Dimension Lock (can't change planes). And the plane their in will cease to be before the Lock expires....

[NNescio]

Transdimensional Spell (metamagic) lets you shoot into Rope Tricks.

'though, having a bunch of enemy casters and their flunkies (like in your case) setting up an ambush should be enough to give the party a really bad day. Especially if they have access to certain ward or trap-like spells.

[Pigkappa]

I'd like to use the spells and feats these NPCs actually have. Giving them Transdimensional Spell just because the PCs are in an extradimensional place would be really mean to them.


They are inside a room which is partially flooded; the ceiling is 3 meters high and the water is 1.5 meters high. I also decided that the Fireball spell only deals half damage in this condition (and I told them it's not working correctly, but they still used it), and this is convenient since there are 2 Wizards with Fireball and the immediate maximize feat.

[NNescio]

I'd like to use the spells and feats these NPCs actually have. Giving them Transdimensional Spell just because the PCs are in an extradimensional place would be really mean to them.


They are inside a room which is partially flooded; the ceiling is 3 meters high and the water is 1.5 meters high. I also decided that the Fireball spell only deals half damage in this condition (and I told them it's not working correctly, but they still used it), and this is convenient since there are 2 Wizards with Fireball and the immediate maximize feat.

Can you flood the whole room? Or use electricity spells?

[Pigkappa]

Not really. The room is 1.5 meters lower than the rest of the catacombs. Flooding the whole room would require flooding a really huge place.

The spellcasters do have some electricity spells though.

[Hirax]

How many exits does the room have?

[Jack_Simth]

Not really. The room is 1.5 meters lower than the rest of the catacombs. Flooding the whole room would require flooding a really huge place.

The spellcasters do have some electricity spells though.
Easy to solve. Either caster have access to Wall of Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm)? Seal the thing off, divert water into there... or maybe just perfectly encase the window....

[NNescio]

Not really. The room is 1.5 meters lower than the rest of the catacombs. Flooding the whole room would require flooding a really huge place.

The spellcasters do have some electricity spells though.

Can you seal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm) the room (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm) first?

Edit: Ninja'ed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The other option is to fill the room with disposable minions that they will have to expend arcane energies getting rid of. Then the casters are part of the second wave. Makes it a lot nastier. Plus, now they're back down to about the same number of spells they had going into it.

[NNescio]

Or combine both options by flooding the room and then filling it with aquatic nasties. Might be a little too much though, but then again, this is Ravenloft.

[gbprime]

The other option is to fill the room with disposable minions that they will have to expend arcane energies getting rid of. Then the casters are part of the second wave. Makes it a lot nastier. Plus, now they're back down to about the same number of spells they had going into it.

Seconded. If the PC's insist on resting all the time, bulk up the combats with grunt troops that are worth basically nothing for XP and carry no treasure. That way the PC's expend more effort (and spells) on each fight than they otherwise would, cancelling out the advantage of resting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Of course, once the party gets Teleport, it all becomes moot, as they can retire to their base of operations rather than using Rope Trick, but hey, keep 'em busy while you can...

[MrRigger]

Well, at this point, if the Necromancer does find them (as you say he can), but has no way of doing anything to him, he's got enough class levels to go around and get a fair number of other monsters (whatever makes up a CR or CR +2 encounter) to help set up an ambush. At that point, they just have to wait for the group to come out, and at that point, they won't have had time to prepare spells again until after the next Extended Rope Trick. And if you didn't draw them into a fight the first time, you've got another 14 hours to buff up your ambush, notify the Scrying Wizard so he can take a peek at them, and generally make life difficult for them.

Usually, I don't have a problem with players using Rope Trick to avoid nightly encounters with bandits and roving monsters, no one wants to get woken up by a hungry Grey Render gnawing on your leg, but using it at 11 AM after going nova with a set of rather poor spell selections (using a gimped Fireball, when you know it's going to be gimped? That's just a little stupid) and then setting up right by your last encounter, in a wizard's castle? You're asking for trouble, at that point. Seriously, between two wizards, even if they're only sporting minimal INT, they should have enough spells to last all day, or close to it.

MrRigger

[Pigkappa]

Sealing the room is possible but I don't really see why I should do this. The PCs could just break the wall of stone and walk away. Unless you mean I should seal it and then flood it completely, but that would be difficult without a Control Water spell (which nobody can cast).



Of course, once the party gets Teleport, it all becomes moot, as they can retire to their base of operations rather than using Rope Trick, but hey, keep 'em busy while you can...

Nope. Dimension Door and Teleport have been nerfed (by me) because they are definitely too good to escape. Dimension Door now has Short range, and Teleport has a 10 minutes casting time.

This is also true for NPCs, of course.


The room has only one exit, which is 3 meters large. There was a door there, but the PCs destroyed it.

[NNescio]

Sealing the room is possible but I don't really see why I should do this. The PCs could just break the wall of stone and walk away. Unless you mean I should seal it and then flood it completely, but that would be difficult without a Control Water spell (which nobody can cast).
Yes, this was what we meant. Create Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm) is also easily accessible, 'though it's rather inefficient if you are casting out of higher-level slots..

[Pigkappa]

If I flood the room, they will see the water going up. This could be nice and make them panic both in game and out of game.

However, I'd have to cast more than a hundred create water spells to do this. Is there any other way to flood it?

[JonestheSpy]

More mundane solution - just because spells can't cross the window doesn't mean other stuff can't, once it's been located.

Instead of setting an ambush and waiting for their enemies to regain full power or completely flooding their home, the castle dwellers should force them to come out as soon as the ambush is set up. If a large fire is built under the window, all that smoke is going to go right into the PC's refuge. Guess how long before the air in that little extradimensional bubble is unbreathable? Things like flasks of flaming oil can be tossed in as well, just to speed up the process.

BTW, there's also no reason why folks can't just get a ladder and climb into te space themselves, once they know where it is.

[Pigkappa]

That's actually a place in another dimension. You can't even see through the window even if you notice it's there. I don't think you can toss anything inside.

Also, setting up a fire in a flooded room would be quite difficult =P.

[Hirax]

However, I'd have to cast more than a hundred create water spells to do this. Is there any other way to flood it?

Toss a decanter of endless water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater) in there, then seal the exit. That will force them out. Of course, put traps behind the exit if you're feeling particularly nasty.

[JonestheSpy]

That's actually a place in another dimension. You can't even see through the window even if you notice it's there. I don't think you can toss anything inside.

Sure you can. It's an open window - it's only defense is that it's invisible and that spells can't go through. How do you think enough air gets into a tiny pocket dimension so that up to 8 folk can stay in side for umpteen hours? Really, read the spell - there's zero that says that physical objects can't go through the window, any assumption that they can't is merely wishful thinking by players who want the spell to be more powerful than it already is.


Also, setting up a fire in a flooded room would be quite difficult =P.

Trickier, but not impossible. A couple of metal braziers on something that floats should do just fine.

[Safety Sword]

That's actually a place in another dimension. You can't even see through the window even if you notice it's there. I don't think you can toss anything inside.

Also, setting up a fire in a flooded room would be quite difficult =P.

I wonder if your PCs are watching that window closely, or do they assume they are safe inside and all sleeping?

If you know where the windows is, it might be fun to "prepare explosive runes this morning" right about where the window is. Those viewing the window from below as they climb out and wait for their companions might enjoy a warm reception to the day.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nope. Dimension Door and Teleport have been nerfed (by me) because they are definitely too good to escape. Dimension Door now has Short range, and Teleport has a 10 minutes casting time.

Ten minutes is more than enough time for abusing it. All you've done is negate the one legitimate use for it (in-combat movement without provoking AoO's). Now about the *only* thing it is good for is, after combat is over, returning to Home Base to rest and resupply.

[Safety Sword]

Toss a decanter of endless water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater) in there, then seal the exit. That will force them out. Of course, put traps behind the exit if you're feeling particularly nasty.

If you take the interpretation that physical objects can cross the "window" then you can toss the decanter INTO the space!

Surely they have to come out then :)

[Pigkappa]

Ten minutes is more than enough time for abusing it. All you've done is negate the one legitimate use for it (in-combat movement without provoking AoO's). Now about the *only* thing it is good for is, after combat is over, returning to Home Base to rest and resupply.

It's good for travelling. And for scry and die. And yes, for returning to home base. That's good enough I think.

What I can't stand at all, and what I fixed this way, is the infamous "oh, the combat is going wrong. Well, no problem, we teleport 150 kilometers away."



I wonder if your PCs are watching that window closely, or do they assume they are safe inside and all sleeping

It's 11 AM and they woke up a few hours ago. They won't be sleeping at all, at least for several hours.







I think I'll do this. Count Strahd won't be involved because I want the PCs to deal with the Necromancer.

The necromancer will use a scroll of wall of stone to seal the room's entrance, except for a 10cm hole near the ceiling. A decanter of endless water will be used to spill water in there coming from that little hole. The PCs will eventually notice that the water is higher; the height of the water when they notice this will depend on their Spot check (I'll manage to find an adequate formula for this).

When they exit the room, five wraiths will be there, and if the PCs need to swim to move they will also have to pass a Will save versus Fear when they notice this (being in a totally flooded room with several undeads is one of the scariest situations I can think of).

If they survive this, the Necromancer and all of his minions will be waiting in the Hall. She will be willing to speak with them if they don't attack her, and she will probably kill them all if they do.

Any suggestion is still appreciated anyway, we won't play again since next sunday.

[erikun]

Once the necromancer notices the party, have them send a bunch of undead minions into the room. Say, 100 skeletons or zombies or so. Have them all "play dead", lying on the floor until the PCs exit. Even if the PCs notice them, they still only have one way to exit. Consider the ground difficult terrain, with one undead standing up in every unoccupied square until all 100 are dead. Obviously, the ones "playing dead" on the ground, under 4 feet of water, will be immune to any fire spells.

Outside the door, position a few ghouls (or something similar) to charge and attack anyone coming out of the room.

That should expend their spell lists quite nicely. If they decide to set up camp in the same spot again (probably because that encounter taxed their spells), then the necromancers just set up the same senario again. They probably wouldn't bother with a "minor concern that will resolve itself" like the party unless they manage to remain camped for a couple of days.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think I'll do this. Count Strahd won't be involved because I want the PCs to deal with the Necromancer.

The necromancer will use a scroll of wall of stone to seal the room's entrance, except for a 10cm hole near the ceiling. A decanter of endless water will be used to spill water in there coming from that little hole. The PCs will eventually notice that the water is higher; the height of the water when they notice this will depend on their Spot check (I'll manage to find an adequate formula for this).

When they exit the room, five wraiths will be there, and if the PCs need to swim to move they will also have to pass a Will save versus Fear when they notice this (being in a totally flooded room with several undeads is one of the scariest situations I can think of).

If they survive this, the Necromancer and all of his minions will be waiting in the Hall. She will be willing to speak with them if they don't attack her, and she will probably kill them all if they do.

Any suggestion is still appreciated anyway, we won't play again since next sunday.

Wraiths in an underwater setting... I like it. They are not hampered in the least by being submerged, the party will be.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Characters can only prepare spells once per 24 hour period, not simply every time they rest for 8 hours. Undead live forever, they can just stand around waiting for the PCs to show themselves. Incorporeal undead, anything capable of using illusions, skeletons hidden under loose dirt/piles of bones, etc. makes a decent ambush. Definitely have something set up to attack them as soon as they leave the Rope Trick, preferably one at a time. Make it so they'll have to rest yet again before they continue adventuring, they'll learn soon enough not to Rope Trick in enemy territory.

[Jack_Simth]

Sealing the room is possible but I don't really see why I should do this. The PCs could just break the wall of stone and walk away. Unless you mean I should seal it and then flood it completely, but that would be difficult without a Control Water spell (which nobody can cast).You don't get it.

You seal the window.

Their only way out is now encased in a Wall of Stone, less than an inch from the window itself. As the window is only 3 feet by five feet, and is probably right up next to the ceiling, you fold the Wall of Stone on itself, mounting all of those 5x5 slabs of rock in a row. At, say, caster level 10, that's 20 inches of rock they'll need to go through. Unless they're packing Disintegrate, that'll take a while. In the meantime, them getting out is going to be very, very obvious, as they repeatedly pound on the stone. So you've got an alarm for while you're working - setting a Decanter of Endless Water to Gyser, stepping out of the room, sealing the room behind you (using the same folded Wall trick), and then setting up minions in an ambush.

Three layers. Most people will really only expect to see one.

So they look through the window with some light from a torch or whatever, see they've been walled in, and shrug, preparing their spells like they normally would, then setting the fighter to bash through the stone when they're ready to leave.

Once the stone's out of the way, they start to get concerned, as the only place for them to go is now full of water. Did they prep water breathing? Make sure to read up on the drowning rules. As they're bashing through the first one, the caster makes his listen check, and starts casting the minutes/level group buffs on the minions. As they're panicking in the water, and working on bashing the second wall down, the caster makes a *very easy* listen check, and casts his rounds/level buffs on his minions. He then walks away and lets his minions handle it.

Should make for a very memorable encounter, if anyone survives....

Edit: Oooh, incorporeal undead in the flooded room! Nice....

[Pigkappa]

I would prefer to avoid a TPK. The scenario you described would certainly result in one.

[Elric VIII]

You don't get it.

You seal the window.

Their only way out is now encased in a Wall of Stone, less than an inch from the window itself. As the window is only 3 feet by five feet, and is probably right up next to the ceiling, you fold the Wall of Stone on itself, mounting all of those 5x5 slabs of rock in a row. At, say, caster level 10, that's 20 inches of rock they'll need to go through. Unless they're packing Disintegrate, that'll take a while. In the meantime, them getting out is going to be very, very obvious, as they repeatedly pound on the stone. So you've got an alarm for while you're working - setting a Decanter of Endless Water to Gyser, stepping out of the room, sealing the room behind you (using the same folded Wall trick), and then setting up minions in an ambush.

Three layers. Most people will really only expect to see one.

So they look through the window with some light from a torch or whatever, see they've been walled in, and shrug, preparing their spells like they normally would, then setting the fighter to bash through the stone when they're ready to leave.

Once the stone's out of the way, they start to get concerned, as the only place for them to go is now full of water. Did they prep water breathing? Make sure to read up on the drowning rules. As they're bashing through the first one, the caster makes his listen check, and starts casting the minutes/level group buffs on the minions. As they're panicking in the water, and working on bashing the second wall down, the caster makes a *very easy* listen check, and casts his rounds/level buffs on his minions. He then walks away and lets his minions handle it.

Should make for a very memorable encounter, if anyone survives....

Edit: Oooh, incorporeal undead in the flooded room! Nice....

For extra fun, before completely finishing the stone wall, light a fire so that it will be encased as well. It will use up the air rather quickly and force them to panic while trying to break that stone wall without breathing.

[Jack_Simth]

I would prefer to avoid a TPK. The scenario you described would certainly result in one.
Less than you might think. For one, as each layer is hidden until they get past the current one, if they're close to dead, you can simply ignore the remainder.

For another, if you stop and look up the Drowning Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning), you'll see "Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score." - do note, though, that it's explicitly modified by the Swim Skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm): "If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his or her breath only half as long as normal.)"

Still, though, Con-10 means you've got ten rounds before you even need to start making checks; when was the last time a battle went that long? And I didn't exactly specify what critters to use. Two or three CR 3 Shadows in a flooded room are in favorable terrain, and make an ECL 6 or 7 encounter immediately after they've gotten out of the Rope Trick. 16 CR 1/3 Human Warrior Skeletons, buffed up with Haste, Desecrate, a quick Bolster (so they don't fall instantly to Turning), Greater Magic Weapon, and Magic Vestments, again makes for Favorable Circumstances. An encounter level of around 7 or 8.

An extended Rope Trick lasts 14 hours = they're 7th level. This is actually about right.


For extra fun, before completely finishing the stone wall, light a fire so that it will be encased as well. It will use up the air rather quickly and force them to panic while trying to break that stone wall without breathing.
Eh, that makes it a lot harder to wing it if it goes worse than you expect.

[Coidzor]

Or if you want to be mean, use Dimension Lock. They're on another plane, and now they're trapped for the duration of the Dimension Lock (can't change planes). And the plane their in will cease to be before the Lock expires....

Well, their goal of leaving Ravenloft would be accomplished, but I imagine that ending the campaign is something the DM already could do without using an NPC. :smalltongue:

Flooding the room they're in though, that'll definitely teach them not to rope trick in an area that the enemy will easily find them.

[Sir_Wulf]

I wouldn't be as harsh as some of the others recommend, but they do deserve a hard time for their foolish decision. Block them in with a wall of stone, but instead of flooding the room or exhausting the oxygen, just foul the air. While they fight the necromancer's undead minions, they suffer from some sort of toxic fumes.

Additionally, the powers of Ravenloft can keep someone from teleporting out of a lord's domain. They may someday try to teleport clear, only to discover themselves on a frigid, mist-shrouded mountainside, with the howl of werewolves quickly approaching...

Why can't the rope trick be dispelled? I don't follow your reasoning about that.

[NNescio]

I wouldn't be as harsh as some of the others recommend, but they do deserve a hard time for their foolish decision. Block them in with a wall of stone, but instead of flooding the room or exhausting the oxygen, just foul the air. While they fight the necromancer's undead minions, they suffer from some sort of toxic fumes.

Additionally, the powers of Ravenloft can keep someone from teleporting out of a lord's domain. They may someday try to teleport clear, only to discover themselves on a frigid, mist-shrouded mountainside, with the howl of werewolves quickly approaching...

Why can't the rope trick be dispelled? I don't follow your reasoning about that.

The standard defence is this: Rope Trick targets a piece of rope. Said piece of rope is then pulled into the extradimensional space, and can no longer be targeted by Dispel Magic, or reached by the area version.

[Safety Sword]

The standard defence is this: Rope Trick targets a piece of rope. Said piece of rope is then pulled into the extradimensional space, and can no longer be targeted by Dispel Magic, or reached by the area version.

If you can see the "window" with see invisibility, surely you can target it with spells. The description states you can't target spells through it, not onto it.

Surely the window itself is a magical effect, owing to the fact that it is invisible, but can been seen through from the other side.

Sounds like a fair target to me. Then you just have to decide what happens if you dispel the window... you could be really evil with that one.

[Jack_Simth]

Sounds like a fair target to me. Then you just have to decide what happens if you dispel the window... you could be really evil with that one.
Agreed... however, the DM in question is the original poster, and the original poster has already come to the conclusion that it's not dispellable.

However, if it were dispellable, the specific interaction is surprisingly well-defined. Dispel Magic terminates spells as though they had expired, and Rope Trick safely ejects everyone when it expires (well, they still fall, but you get the idea).

[Safety Sword]

Agreed... however, the DM in question is the original poster, and the original poster has already come to the conclusion that it's not dispellable.

However, if it were dispellable, the specific interaction is surprisingly well-defined. Dispel Magic terminates spells as though they had expired, and Rope Trick safely ejects everyone when it expires (well, they still fall, but you get the idea).

OK, so no dispel...

How about disintegrate? :smallamused:

[NNescio]

OK, so no dispel...

How about disintegrate? :smallamused:

You disintegrate... what? It's not a force construct. The extradimensional interface isn't even technically an object.

[Safety Sword]

You disintegrate... what? It's not a force construct. The extradimensional interface isn't even technically an object.

What IS it then?

An invisible "IWIN" resting button?

For reference:


When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Emphasis mine, clearly.

[awa]

a way to deal with rope trick is to enforce money weight. gold is really heavy particularly when you have a lot of it. They could carry gems but then they will be in trouble when they only have 5000 gp gems and want to buy a 4000 gp item.
This basically forces them to take bags of holding which cant be safely placed inside the rope trick. which severely limits what they can do.

many dm house rule away that feature but its in the rules and its as bad as you want it to be.

edit actually something ive thought that would be amusing is a monster throwing an extra dimensional space into the rope trick

[NNescio]

And how exactly do you disintegrate it?



Effect: Ray

...

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

Emphasis Mine. Very clearly.

[Jack_Simth]

What IS it then?

An invisible "IWIN" resting button?
Well, as demonstrated by the rather nasty surprises an opponent can prepare if he finds the resting spot, not really.

And really, there's a LOT of ways to find that resting spot. Anyone with decent ranks in Survival and the Track feat will usually be able to find where they vanished. A simple cantrip (Detect Magic) will locate the window. Then there's all manner of ambushes you can set up in the area. Most of the tricks spelled out here were designed around the theme and resources of the OP's local BBEG in use while still being very effective.

Now, you can take extra steps to avoid most of that - cast Rope Trick on a short length of rope, tuck the rope up into the Trick, cast Fly on the entire party, go back 2d6 rooms without touching anything, and cast Rope Trick on a second rope while you're still in the air, then go into *that* Rope Trick to rest up sort of thing.... but if you need to take such steps:
1) You're burning more resources (an extra Rope Trick, plus ... what, four 3rd level spells? ... not an inconsiderable investment, even at 10th or 15th).
2) You're having to layer defenses, which makes it fairly clear it's not unbeatable (otherwise, you wouldn't need the extra layers of obfuscation).

AKA, not an "IWIN" button at all.

[Sucrose]

What IS it then?

An invisible "IWIN" resting button?

For reference:



Emphasis mine, clearly.

It's an interface between two planes. Trying to Disintegrate that is like trying to Disintegrate the line made between the light and the darkness. It makes no sense.

[Safety Sword]

And how exactly do you disintegrate it?



Emphasis Mine. Clearly.

I think you're stretching trying to compare Rope Trick" to effects that are clearly purposed to defeat magical disintegration.

[Safety Sword]

It's an interface between two planes. Trying to Disintegrate that is like trying to Disintegrate the line made between the light and the darkness. It makes no sense.

I don't see how it doesn't make sense. The spell creates a real (although invisible) manifestation on the plane the bad guys are on.

Why can't they interact with it? THAT doesn't make sense.

[NNescio]

I think you're stretching trying to compare Rope Trick" to effects that are clearly purposed to defeat magical disintegration.

And I think you are stretching trying to say that Disintergrate can disintergrate anything except for Globes of Invulnerability (which lets it through) and Antimagic Fields.

Disintegrate, very clearly, states that it only affects three kinds of targets. Creatures (living or not), nonliving matter, and force constructs. Nothing else is valid, 'though nonliving matter covers a lot of categories.

You cannot disintegrate something like say, a Cloudkill either. Or an illusion. Or the cleric's buffs. Yes, they are sitting on the Material Plane. No, you can't disintegrate them.

[Coidzor]

Disintegrate, very clearly, states that it only affects three kinds of targets. Creatures (living or not), nonliving matter, and force constructs. Nothing else is valid, 'though nonliving matter covers a lot of categories.

...You can't disintegrate trees? :smalleek:

[Jack_Simth]

...You can't disintegrate trees? :smalleek:... hmm. All righty... looks like you can target them, but because they're not creatures, and they're not nonliving objects, there is no effect from doing so, by RAW. Weird.

However, if you cast Animate Object, Liveoak, or similar spells on the tree first, then yes, you can, because it becomes a creature.

by RAW.

Do note that sometimes RAW is very, very silly.

[NNescio]

...Oh dear. :smalleek:

Looks like we've stumbled upon a druidic secret.

[Hirax]

You could make the argument that trees are creatures. D&D's definition of creature is already very broad.

[Jack_Simth]

You could make the argument that trees are creatures. D&D's definition of creature is already very broad.
Sadly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities):

Wisdom

Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.
Charisma

Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score. (emphasis added)

It really depends on what stats you assign to the tree... and they're statted up in the manner of objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#trees).

[NNescio]

You could make the argument that trees are creatures. D&D's definition of creature is already very broad.

The SRD seems to be explicit in this regard though.

Plant Type

This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.

[Jack_Simth]

The SRD seems to be explicit in this regard though.

Ooh, a better quote! Cool.

[Hirax]

Huh. That's hilarious, then. Disintegrate really doesn't work on trees by RAW.

[Drglenn]

Huh. That's hilarious, then. Disintegrate really doesn't work on trees by RAW.

Cue PCs running around with potted plants as/in addition to armour/shields :smalltongue:

On topic: What happens when an antimagic field interacts with a rope trick's door?

[GeminiVeil]

Huh. That's hilarious, then. Disintegrate really doesn't work on trees by RAW.

So. . . wait, is that a way for Wizards to get around disintigrate?

DM- Bad guy casts spell at you!
WIZ- Spellcraft! What is the spell?
DM- Disintigrate.
WIZ- I have a contingency (whatever spell would work here) to become a tree for 1 round!
DM- Ok. . . he finishes, roll fort.
WIZ- No! I'ma Tree! HAHAHA!!!!
DM- :smallfrown:. . . :smalleek:. . . :smallfurious:

LOL

[NNescio]

So. . . wait, is that a way for Wizards to get around disintigrate?

DM- Bad guy casts spell at you!
WIZ- Spellcraft! What is the spell?
DM- Disintigrate.
WIZ- I have a contingency (whatever spell would work here) to become a tree for 1 round!
DM- Ok. . . he finishes, roll fort.
WIZ- No! I'ma Tree! HAHAHA!!!!
DM- :smallfrown:. . . :smalleek:. . . :smallfurious:

LOL

DM: The villain burns the tree.
Wiz: Immediate Action, I ca-
DM: You're an object. You can't take actions. :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

DM: The villain burns the tree.
Wiz: Immediate Action, I ca-
DM: You're an object. You can't take actions. :smallamused:

Ahh, Factotum Villains.

[Flame of Anor]

You don't get it.

You seal the window.

Their only way out ...

...in an ambush. Three layers...

...they start to get concerned...Make sure to read up on the drowning rules...

...Should make for a very memorable encounter, if anyone survives....

And this kind of thing is why I would be a bad DM. :smallwink:



Huh. That's hilarious, then. Disintegrate really doesn't work on trees by RAW.

This is the funniest thing I've seen all week. :smallbiggrin:

[Safety Sword]

This is the funniest thing I've seen all week. :smallbiggrin:

What happens if you poke the Rope Trick window with a tree, surely the universe implodes?

[Pigkappa]

a way to deal with rope trick is to enforce money weight. gold is really heavy particularly when you have a lot of it. They could carry gems but then they will be in trouble when they only have 5000 gp gems and want to buy a 4000 gp item.
This basically forces them to take bags of holding which cant be safely placed inside the rope trick. which severely limits what they can do.

many dm house rule away that feature but its in the rules and its as bad as you want it to be.

You can't play without having some extradimensional storage item. They have a bag of holding inside the Rope Trick; I'll just apply the rule so that they can't open it while they're inside.

This is already harmful because they will have to keep their complete armors, and that's a -10 to Swim checks.

[Jack_Simth]

So. . . wait, is that a way for Wizards to get around disintigrate?

DM- Bad guy casts spell at you!
WIZ- Spellcraft! What is the spell?
DM- Disintigrate.
WIZ- I have a contingency (whatever spell would work here) to become a tree for 1 round!
DM- Ok. . . he finishes, roll fort.
WIZ- No! I'ma Tree! HAHAHA!!!!
DM- :smallfrown:. . . :smalleek:. . . :smallfurious:

LOL
You'll have to look long and hard for a spell that will do so properly. See, almost no effect actually gets rid of your Wis and Cha scores while still leaving you a living thing. Polymorph Any Object won't cut it here.

[GeminiVeil]

You'll have to look long and hard for a spell that will do so properly. See, almost no effect actually gets rid of your Wis and Cha scores while still leaving you a living thing. Polymorph Any Object won't cut it here.

It was more to point out the absurdity. Which a lot of RAW doesn't need it pointed out, but all the same, thought it was funny. :smallsmile:

[Sinfonian]

You can't play without having some extradimensional storage item. They have a bag of holding inside the Rope Trick; I'll just apply the rule so that they can't open it while they're inside.

It's also handy to mention that RAW the only interaction between extradimensional items is specifically between Bag of Holding and Portable Hole. Anything else is done by DM discretion. It's not unreasonable to judge, but it's not a mandatory rule.

Edit: I love the discovery in this thread that trees aren't legal targets for Disintegrate. Incoming fortifications made out of living wood as a trademark of druids in my next game.

[Jack_Simth]

It's also handy to mention that RAW the only interaction between extradimensional items is specifically between Bag of Holding and Portable Hole. Anything else is done by DM discretion. It's not unreasonable to judge, but it's not a mandatory rule.

Sort-of. In the same vein that "combustible" items are not game-defined, nor is the melting point of metals, but Lightning Bolt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lightningBolt.htm) specifies that they're set on fire or melted, Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm) specifies that "It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one."

Are the specific consequences defined? No. But the rules specify that they should exist.


Edit: I love the discovery in this thread that trees aren't legal targets for Disintegrate. Incoming fortifications made out of living wood as a trademark of druids in my next game.
It is funny, yes.

[Psyren]

Babau Demons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm):

- Summonable via SMVII
- At will Greater Teleport + See Invisibility to find the opening
- At will Dispel Magic to end it
- 100 ft. Telepathy to communicate with other guards

Have a few of them patrol the dungeon if Rope Trick is really a problem. Your players will get the hint eventually.

[Coidzor]

Edit: I love the discovery in this thread that trees aren't legal targets for Disintegrate. Incoming fortifications made out of living wood as a trademark of druids in my next game.

They do have several spells along those lines already, yeah. plus, livewood. :smallbiggrin:

[Essence_of_War]

Jack_Smith,

I just read your strategy on sealing the entrace with layers leading them into an ambush.

My players are running through "Necropolis" right now, and if they pull the 15 minute workday + rope trick at any point in the Tomb of Rahotep they are getting hit HARD with this :smallbiggrin:

[Essence_of_War]

Babau Demons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm):

- Summonable via SMVII
- At will Greater Teleport + See Invisibility to find the opening
- At will Dispel Magic to end it
- 100 ft. Telepathy to communicate with other guards

Have a few of them patrol the dungeon if Rope Trick is really a problem. Your players will get the hint eventually.

A bound Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm), or Avoral (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/avoral.htm), could fit the bill also. The latter is also summonable by SM VII.

[Jack_Simth]

Jack_Smith,

I just read your strategy on sealing the entrace with layers leading them into an ambush.

My players are running through "Necropolis" right now, and if they pull the 15 minute workday + rope trick at any point in the Tomb of Rahotep they are getting hit HARD with this :smallbiggrin:
Glad to help.

Do bear in mind, though:
1) This particular counter only really makes sense inside a place that's organized (some form of patrol that checks the assorted occupied rooms periodically, someone who goes and checks on people who don't show up when they're supposed to do so, some form of scouts / maintenance staff that will report the bodies, or some form of alarm system to alert someone to deal with it) - this also implies some form of head honcho (making rules), and doing so intelligently (so you don't pull this in a place full of animals, insects, oozes, skeletons, and zombies ... unless they're being specifically controlled)

2) This particular method requires a certain set of resources - Two Wall of Stone spells, a Detect Magic to locate the window, some number of buffs suitable for laying down on minions, a bunch of minions, and a decanter of endless water. You've got at least a 9th level caster involved. If this requires resources from the dungeon boss (or someone else in the dungeon that the party would reasonably encounter soon), play fair, and make certain to check off his resources used (So that Wizard-9 they're after is short two 5th level spells, a cantrip, and whatever spell slots for the buffs he put on his minions, plus the wealth allotment for the Decanter - this trap cost him a hefty dose of opportunity). If they rest up *again* before they encounter him, fine, but they probably won't ... and you really ought to play fair with such things.

3) Obstacles still have a CR rating. They should get XP separately for getting through the flooded room, as well as facing down the assorted minions.


A bound Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm), or Avoral (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/avoral.htm), could fit the bill also. The latter is also summonable by SM VII.
You use Planar Binding or Planar Ally, not Summons. A couple of reasons:
1) Planar Binding can get you anything on this list with 6th level and lower spells (11th level caster vs. 13th level caster).
2) Planar Binding lasts much, much longer than summons (up to days/level, vs. rounds/level) - much better for patrol tasks.
3) While yes, Planar Binding and Planar Ally involve risks and/or costs, those can be mostly hand-waved away if you give XP separately for any encounter with the bound / allied creature.

[Pigkappa]

To be back in topic, how does attacking underwater works? Supposing they pass the (easy, if they don't wear their complete armors) swim checks with DC = 10, would they be able to attack with no penalties?

[Jack_Simth]

To be back in topic, how does attacking underwater works? Supposing they pass the (easy, if they don't wear their complete armors) swim checks with DC = 10, would they be able to attack with no penalties?
Nope. Without Freedom of Movement or similar, they take some of an assortment of penalties, which are a bit complex to list here. But I did supply a link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#underwaterCombat)

[Jaraak]

Do any of them have a pouch of holding? Isn't there something about extradimensional spaces inside extradimensional spaces?

If not. I'd mage hand a Bag of Holding Type I through the window when the first one tries to leave.

[Jack_Simth]

Do any of them have a pouch of holding? Isn't there something about extradimensional spaces inside extradimensional spaces?There sort-of is. At the end of the spell description for Rope Trick, it says: "Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. "

That's all it says about it. The only other place 3.5 Core references that sort of thing is the specific Bag of Holding / Portable Hole interaction. Some people follow the FAQ, some people don't, but the FAQ said to ignore the note at the end of Rope Trick. Others use the Rope Trick clause to apply the Portable Hole / Bag of Holding interaction to all such interactions. Your mileage may vary, check with your DM.

[Dwoir]

It might be fun to trap them in the rope trick with the Wall of Stone idea, but for added fun and/or deviousness, might as well put a portable hole in between the window and the stone. It may be that a bag of holding and a rope trick don't cause rifts, but I'd like to see how a party (or a party member) could escape past a portable hole (which stretches past the window's dimensions) if they are carrying bags of holding :smallamused:

Which prompts a further idea: After locating the window, what if a portable hole was placed under the window, and then brought up to encompass the window (then folded, yadayada)? Would the rope trick entrance be inside the portable hole?

[Safety Sword]

It might be fun to trap them in the rope trick with the Wall of Stone idea, but for added fun and/or deviousness, might as well put a portable hole in between the window and the stone. It may be that a bag of holding and a rope trick don't cause rifts, but I'd like to see how a party (or a party member) could escape past a portable hole (which stretches past the window's dimensions) if they are carrying bags of holding :smallamused:

Which prompts a further idea: After locating the window, what if a portable hole was placed under the window, and then brought up to encompass the window (then folded, yadayada)? Would the rope trick entrance be inside the portable hole?

And then throw the portable hole into the "fires of Mt. Doom", so to speak... I like it :smallamused:

[Psyren]

You use Planar Binding or Planar Ally, not Summons. A couple of reasons:
1) Planar Binding can get you anything on this list with 6th level and lower spells (11th level caster vs. 13th level caster).
2) Planar Binding lasts much, much longer than summons (up to days/level, vs. rounds/level) - much better for patrol tasks.
3) While yes, Planar Binding and Planar Ally involve risks and/or costs, those can be mostly hand-waved away if you give XP separately for any encounter with the bound / allied creature.

Agreed that Binding is better due to the duration, though I will point out that (a) most BBEGs are above level 13 anyway, (b) the Summon X line is available to a wider variety of classes than PB and PA and (c) it's much easier to put Outsiders in danger when the know they can't be killed as a result.


And then throw the portable hole into the "fires of Mt. Doom", so to speak... I like it :smallamused:

Keep in mind that no party is forced to leave a rope trick, portable hole or other planar enclosure by its opening, so long as they can planeshift or similar.

[Safety Sword]

Keep in mind that no party is forced to leave a rope trick, portable hole or other planar enclosure by its opening, so long as they can planeshift or similar.

It's more about making them work more than 15 minutes a day than actually trapping them in there.

I can imagine not wanting to be in the Rope Trick when the baddies are unfolding a portable hole for deployment onto your resting place. Might make them actually come out "willingly"

[The Random NPC]

Babau Demons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm):

- Summonable via SMVII
- At will Greater Teleport + See Invisibility to find the opening
- At will Dispel Magic to end it
- 100 ft. Telepathy to communicate with other guards

Have a few of them patrol the dungeon if Rope Trick is really a problem. Your players will get the hint eventually.

Dispel Magic would only end it if
1:They haven't pulled the rope up yet
2:They're already done
3:Dispel Magic has somehow been modified to work across dimensions