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View Full Version : Attemped Tier 2 Melee (Failed. Thread Closed)



NeoSeraphi
2011-05-29, 11:29 PM
"I wasn't impressed with your skills, no. What impressed me was beyond that. You possess things a true warrior needs. Creativity. Intelligence. The ability to put things into perspective. These are the talents that will protect you on your journey." - Master Piandao, a legendary Myrmidon, to his disciple.

(Author's Note: This class is not supposed to be balanced against the monk, the fighter, the barbarian, the samurai, or any of the other classes like rogue. It is meant to compete with on an even level, sorcerers, favored souls, and other Tier 2 classes. In order for a melee class to do this, it must exceed what people normally think about when they consider "balance" in a melee class. Please keep this in mind when you PEACH)

The myrmidon is a warrior who exceeds in many things, battle only being one of the few. A myrmidon can turn any situation into an advantage, and uses his terrain to help him trip his opponents up. A myrmidon is a master of all forms of battle, and is unmatched in the ways of the sword.

Abilities: Strength is important for a myrmidon, more than other fighters, as it allows him to perform various tactics in battle and helps him survive out of battle, in addition to the normal bonuses to hit and damage. Dexterity and Constitution are both important so the myrmidon can dodge and attack with his ranged weapons easily, and not worry about falling in combat.

HD: d12
Skill Points: 6+Int per level (x4 at 1st level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Forgery, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Psionic Device

{table] Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1 | +1 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Battle Mastery, Weapon Mastery, Armor Mastery, Shield Mastery, Skill Mastery, Stamina Mastery
2 | +2 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Evasion, Mettle, Uncanny Dodge
3 | +3 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Critical Mastery, Terrain Mastery
4 | +4 | +4 |+4 | +4 | Charge Mastery, Steed Mastery
5 | +5 | +4 | +4 | +4 | Improved Battle Mastery, Improved Uncanny Dodge
6 | +6 | +5 | +5 | +5 | Opportunity Mastery, Defense Mastery
7 | +7 | +5 | +5 | +5 | Melee Mastery, Ranged Mastery
8 | +8 | +6 | +6 | +6 | Death Mastery, Resistance Mastery
9 | +9 | +6 | +6 | +6 | Morale Mastery, Competence Mastery
10 | +10 | +7 | +7 | +7 | Circumstance Mastery, Luck Mastery
11 | +11 | +7 | +7 | +7 | Improved Evasion, Improved Mettle
12 | +12 | +8 | +8 | +8 | Insight Mastery, Size Mastery
13 | +13 | +8 | +8 | +8 | Command Mastery, Dispel Mastery
14 | +14 | +9 | +9 | +9 | Perfect Battle Mastery
15 | +15 | +9 | +9 | +9 | Improved Charge Mastery, Improved Steed Mastery
16 | +16 | +10 | +10 | +10 | Improved Critical Mastery, Improved Death Mastery
17 | +17 | +10 | +10 | +10 | Improved Dispel Mastery
18 | +18 | +11 | +11 | +11 | Fortitude Mastery, Reflex Mastery, Will Mastery
19 | +19 | +11 | +11 | +11 | Strength Mastery, Dexterity Mastery, Constitution Mastery
20 | +20 | +12 | +12 | +12 | Master Myrmidon [/table]

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Myrmidons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor, and with shields.

Battle Mastery : A myrmidon is not a one-trick pony, at all. A myrmidon never provokes attacks of opportunity for any of the "Special Attacks" listed in the section of Chapter 8 of the Player's Handbook of the same name (Feinting in Combat, Grappling, Bull Rushing, etc).

Weapon Mastery : It doesn't matter what race invented it. It doesn't matter if it's got hooks or spearheads. It doesn't matter if it's bludgeoning or slashing, a double weapon or a reach weapon or a bow. If it can kill, a myrmidon can figure it out with ease. A myrmidon receives proficiency with ALL exotic weapons from all source material. He may use any of these weapons in any way they can be used, regardless of Strength requirements (Such as the bastard sword or the Dwarven waraxe needing 13 Str to be used as one-handed weapons). In addition, the myrmidon receives a +1 bonus on all attack rolls with manufactured weapons, and a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls.

Armor Mastery : Yes, the Battle Plate is dwarven-made and very heavy. That's nice. Just show the myrmidon how to strap it on and he'll be on his way. A myrmidon receives proficiency with ALL Exotic armor from all source material. He gains a +1 bonus to his armor bonus to AC while wearing any kind of armor, and can move in any kind of armor freely without penalty. (He may also run and sleep in all kinds of armor without risking fatigue)

Shield Mastery : Come on. It's a shield. So what if it's heavy. You put it in the way and the weapon chinks on it. Big deal. The myrmidon receives proficiency with ALL shields from all source material, including exotic shields and tower shields. He receives no attack penalty for fighting with a tower shield, nor does he treat any shield as having a maximum Dexterity bonus to his AC. When wielding a shield, he receives a +1 shield bonus to AC, and ignores any movement restrictions of the shield.

Skill Mastery : Yes. You practiced at running, so you're REALLY good at it. The myrmidon understands. He also understands that his legs are totally cut from climbing all day, so a bit of running isn't that much of a problem. The myrmidon uses a special rule when making opposed Strength and Dexterity checks: if his Strength or Dexterity score is higher than his opponent's, he automatically succeeds the check, without needing to roll. When rolling for initiative, the Myrmidon counts his roll as 1 higher than the person who has less Dexterity than him and rolled highest.

(For example, a myrmidon watches everyone roll initiative. The monster got a 20 and has 22 Dexterity. The mage got a 17 and has 16 Dexterity, and the rogue got a 19 and has 18 Dexterity. The myrmidon's Dexterity score is 19, so he treats his Initiative roll as being 20, though he didn't actually roll, because he is naturally faster than the rogue and the mage, but not the monster.)

This rule applies to initiative checks as well as Special Combat maneuvers such as Trip and Grapple, or an opposed Strength check to break down a door being braced by a person on the other side (though in that situation, the myrmidon would need to roll his own Strength check to see if he could take the door down by himself, ignoring the impact the weaker opponent has on the door by bracing it).

Additionally, the myrmidon is always treated as if he has an Armor Check penalty of 0, regardless of his encumbrance, armor and shield.

Stamina Mastery : The myrmidon is the ultimate soldier. It takes more than a few stabs of a blade to bring him down. The myrmidon is treated as always rolling max HP when he gains a level in the myrmidon class. (This applies to his first level as well)

Evasion: As the monk ability, but it works in any kind of armor

Mettle: As the hexblade ability

Uncanny Dodge: As the barbarian ability

Critical Mastery: A myrmidon is a master of striking where it counts. Rather than weakly stabbing an exposed hole in the opponent's defense as a rogue does, a myrmidon cuts it up. If a myrmidon catches his target flat-footed or when the target would otherwise be denied their Dexterity bonus to AC (regardless of whether they actually have a Dexterity bonus to AC or not) or if they attack an opponent who is currently flanked, they automatically threaten a critical hit. This ability is prevented by Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as Sneak Attack is, though if the myrmidon's Intelligence score exceeds the target with Improved Uncanny Dodge's Wisdom AND Dexterity scores, (not combined, just higher than both of them), the Improved Uncanny Dodge is not sufficient to prevent the myrmidon's ability from working, as he has outsmarted their instinctive defense.

Terrain Mastery: A myrmidon is a master of using his surroundings to his advantage. He ignores the penalties for traveling through difficult terrain, and may even charge through it, though he may only move up to his movement speed instead of up to twice his movement speed if he charges through it. Additionally, if the myrmidon is engaging an opponent, he may use a swift action to assume an aggressive, tactical stance. Until the beginning of his next turn, the opponent he is engaging treats all area he threatens as difficult terrain. (To engage an opponent, the myrmidon must be within arm's reach [that means, reach for a creature of his size, so within 5 feet for a Medium myrmidon] and must use his standard or full round action to declare a melee attack against the opponent he is engaging. The ability works whether his attack actually hits or not)

Charge Mastery: A round lasts six seconds. A myrmidon can cause a lot of pain in six seconds. A myrmidon does not count his allies when he determines whether he has a straight line to his enemy to charge (though he cannot end the charge in a space occupied by an ally), and may attack during the charge with a single thrown weapon before he reaches his attack target. The focus required for this feat means that the myrmidon may only attack the target of his charge with his thrown weapon. At the end of his charge, if the myrmidon did not attack his target with a thrown weapon, he may instead perform a full attack action. (If he has attacked with a thrown weapon, he may still attack the target with a standard attack action).

Steed Mastery: A myrmidon does not permit distraction in battle. Once per day, a myrmidon may perform a Handle Animal check with an animal who is large enough to serve the myrmidon as a mount. The DC for the check is equal to 10 + the animal's HD +its Constitution modifier. If the animal's attitude towards the myrmidon is friendly or helpful, the DC decreases by 10. If the animal's attitude towards the myrmidon is unfriendly or hostile, the DC increases by 10. If the myrmidon succeeds, he automatically succeeds all Ride checks while riding the mount for the next 8 hours.

Improved Battle Mastery: The myrmidon is now more adept at using his techniques to aid him in combat. The myrmidon gains the following feats as bonus feats. He need not meet the prerequisites: Improved Aid Another, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip. He also adds the bonus that he gets from the check (usually +4) to his Strength or Dexterity when determining if he even need make the opposed roll when using his Skill Mastery ability. (For example, if a myrmidon with 22 Str was trying to Grapple a tiger [Str 23], he would need to roll the opposed Grapple check without Improved Battle Mastery, because his Str was too low. But if the myrmidon has Improved Battle Mastery, his Str for this ability is treated as 26, so the tiger automatically fails all Grapple checks against him).

Additionally, the myrmidon may feint in combat as a swift action, and automatically succeeds all Aid Another checks to help an ally with a Strength or Dexterity check or skill check.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: As the barbarian ability of the same name, except if the myrmidon is attacked by a rogue four or more levels higher than him, and his Dexterity or his Wisdom score is higher than the rogue's Intelligence score, the rogue fails to flank him, as his instinctive defense is just too quick for the rogue to successfully plan against.

Opportunity Mastery: A myrmidon is skilled with his battle plans, and quick with his sword. The myrmidon may make unlimited attacks of opportunity per round, though he may only make one attack of opportunity per round against each creature. Additionally, if he makes an attack of opportunity against an opponent who treats his threatened area as difficult terrain via his Terrain Mastery ability, the myrmidon automatically threatens a critical. Finally, if the myrmidon threatens a mage, that mage cannot use the "Cast Defensively" option.

Defense Mastery: A myrmidon may slack on his offense in order to make sure that next attack misses him. When the myrmidon makes an attack roll, he may subtract any number from all attack rolls he makes this turn, up to his Base Attack Bonus. If he does, he gains the penalty he took on his attack roll as a bonus to his AC for the round. Also, if he took at least a -6 penalty, any attack against him provokes an attack of opportunity.

Melee Mastery: A myrmidon may attack with grace or he may swing his blade wildly in an attempt to end his opponent in one blow. A myrmidon may take a penalty to his attack roll, up to his Base Attack Bonus. If he does, he gains a bonus on his damage rolls that depends on the type of weapon he is using. If the weapon is a light weapon, he gains the penalty he took as a bonus to damage with it. If the weapon is a one-handed weapon, or a double weapon used in one hand, he gains twice the penalty as a bonus to damage with it. If the weapon he is holding is a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed or double weapon held in both hands, he gains a bonus equal to three times the penalty he took to damage. If he took at least a -6 penalty, he may make an additional attack this round at his highest attack bonus (with the penalty he took).

Ranged Mastery: A myrmidon does not miss. When a myrmidon makes a ranged attack roll, he may take a penalty to his AC, up to his Base Attack Bonus. If he does, he gains that amount as a bonus to every ranged attack roll he makes, until the beginning of his next turn. The penalty to his AC also lasts to the beginning of his next turn. If the myrmidon took at least a -6 penalty, he receives half of the penalty rounded down as a bonus on his ranged weapon damage rolls until the beginning of his next turn as well.

Death Mastery: The myrmidon is a warrior. And warriors do not take prisoners. The myrmidon may now wield a weapon that is one size category larger than any weapon he could wield without penalty. Additionally, his critical threat range is doubled (this stacks with abilities such as Keen Edge and Improved Critical) and his critical multiplier is increased by 1.

Resistance Mastery: The myrmidon does not allow spells or poisons to slow him down. He may enlist the aid of his allies or simply buy a scroll himself, but he will get his money's worth. If the myrmidon receives a resistance bonus to his saving throws, that bonus is doubled and if the effect or ability giving the resistance bonus has a duration, the duration is doubled.

Morale Mastery: The myrmidon hears tales of his exploits sung by the bard and it inspires him. Standing next to his paladin friend, he truly feels no fear. If the myrmidon receives a morale bonus of any kind, that bonus is doubled and if the effect or ability giving the morale bonus has a duration, that duration is doubled.

Competence Mastery: The myrmidon isn't a big stupid fighter. He figured out every weapon, he figured out every type of armor. He can figure out a skill check or how to make a better attack roll. If the myrmidon receives a competence bonus of any kind, that bonus is doubled and if the source has a duration, that duration is doubled.

Circumstance Mastery: The myrmidon knows how to balance an advantage even further in his favor. If the myrmidon receives a circumstance bonus from any source, that bonus is doubled and if the source has a duration, that duration is doubled.

Luck Mastery: When the gods and Fate smile down on the myrmidon, they give him a little extra. If the myrmidon receives a luck bonus of any kind, that bonus is doubled and if the source has a duration, that duration is doubled.

Improved Evasion: As the monk ability, except it works in all kinds of armor.

Improved Mettle: As Mettle, but take only the partial effect on a successful saving throw.

Insight Mastery: When someone or something gives a myrmidon advice, he pays close attention. If a myrmidon receives an insight bonus of any kind, double that bonus and if the source has a duration, that duration is doubled.

Size Mastery: The myrmidon quickly adapts to new and improved muscles. If the myrmidon receives a Size bonus to an ability score or to an opposed check, that bonus is doubled. Also, if the myrmidon receives a Size penalty to AC, attack rolls, an ability score or a skill check, that penalty is halved, rounded down, to a minimum of 0. If the source of the Size bonus/penalty has a duration, that duration is doubled.

Command Mastery: It's a scroll. You read it and crazy stuff happens. Big deal. As long as the myrmidon has max ranks in Use Magic Device or Use Psionic Device (whichever is appropriate), he automatically succeeds all Use Magic Device/Use Psionic Device checks to activate a magic item requiring a command such as a scroll, wand, power stone or dorje, but only if the item is activating a spell that would be available to a wizard/cleric/psion of his myrmidon level. (For example, a 15th level myrmidon with 18 ranks in the Use Magic Device skill would automatically succeed all UMD checks to activate a scroll that had a spell of 8th level or lower)

Dispel Mastery: A myrmidon is no fool. He understands that the giant dragon and the black pudding aren't the real threats, its the wizard who controls them. A myrmidon may, once per encounter, make a targeted greater dispel magic check on any opponent he successfully strikes with a melee weapon. His caster level for this check is treated as his character level.

Perfect Battle Mastery: A myrmidon has mastered his options in battle. He now receives a bonus on all Special Attack checks equal to his myrmidon level (This bonus only applies if he actually has to make the check, ie, against an opponent with superior Strength or Dexterity)

Improved Charge Mastery: A myrmidon may now attempt an automatic Bull Rush as a free action against an opponent he successfully attacked at the end of a charge. If he succeeds this Bull Rush, he may not move with the target. If he auto-succeeds the Bull Rush by means of his Skill Mastery ability, the target is also knocked prone.

Improved Steed Mastery: A myrmidon can wield deadly momentum in battle. If the myrmidon initiates a mounted charge, after his attack, his mount may make a single attack (typically a hoof). If the mount's attack hits, it deals double damage.

Improved Critical Mastery: A myrmidon is now a deadly force when he catches an opponent off-guard. When using his Critical Mastery ability, a myrmidon adds his Intelligence modifier to his critical confirmation roll, and if he successfully attacks a flat-footed opponent (but NOT a flanked opponent) with a melee slashing weapon, he treats his weapon as if it had the vorpal quality and he just rolled a natural 20.

Improved Death Mastery: A myrmidon deals lethal force behind even the simplest strike. The myrmidon now adds his full Strength modifier to damage rolls with a light weapon, 1 1/2 times his Strength modifier to weapon damage rolls with a one-handed weapon, and twice his Strength modifier to weapon damage rolls with a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon held in two hands.

Improved Dispel Mastery: In the face of the myrmidon, all magic must fall. Once per day, as a free action, the myrmidon may project an anti-magic aura, as the spell, centered on him. The ability lasts for one round per class level.

Fortitude Mastery: The myrmidon is tougher than even the snakes who bite him. If a myrmidon is forced to make a Fortitude save by an attack whose save DC uses the attacker's Constitution modifier as bonus, and the myrmidon's Constitution score is higher than the attacker's Constitution score, the myrmidon automatically succeeds his saving throw.

Reflex Mastery: The myrmidon is faster than an archer or whip-lasher can see. If the myrmidon is forced to make a Reflex save by an attack whose save DC uses the attacker's Dexterity modifier as a bonus (this is mostly homebrew material, I admit), and the myrmidon's Dexterity score is higher than the attacker's Dexterity score, the myrmidon automatically succeeds his saving throw.

Will Mastery: The myrmidon's mind is tougher than the clerics and druids trying to poison it. If the myrmidon is forced to make a Will save by an attack or spell whose save DC uses the attacker's Wisdom modifier as a bonus, and the myrmidon's Wisdom score is higher than the attacker's Wisdom score, the myrmidon automatically succeeds his saving throw.

Strength Mastery: The myrmidon has now become the ultimate warrior. Whenever he would add his Strength bonus to any skill-check, opposed roll, attack roll, or damage roll, or when it would be examined by his Skill Mastery ability, treat his Strength score as double what it actually is.

Dexterity Mastery:The myrmidon has now become the ultimate warrior. Whenever he would add his Dexterity bonus to any skill-check, opposed roll, attack roll, or damage roll, or when it would be examined by his Skill Mastery or Reflex Mastery abilities, treat his Dexterity score as double what it actually is.

Constitution Mastery:The myrmidon has now become the ultimate warrior. Whenever he would add his Constitution bonus to any skill-check, opposed roll, or hit points, or when it would be examined for his Fortitude Mastery ability, treat his Constitution score as double what it actually is.

Master Myrmidon: Combat has become irrelevant for the ultimate warrior. He now treats all his damage rolls as if they were the maximum possible result, and his critical threat range/multiplier for any weapon becomes 15-20/x4. (This ability supercedes his Death Mastery ability, but stacks with Improved Critical or any other ability that would improve a critical threat range or multiplier)



So what do you all think? How can I make this class balanced against Tier 2? Please comment and help me out.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-29, 11:42 PM
Haven't read even close to all of this. However, you might want to think about moving weapon mastery to 2nd level, as this class seems really good for a one level dip. And besides, if you put all those proficiency ones as 1st level class features, why don't you just take them out and in the weapon and armor proficiency column, just put "all weapons, all armor, and all shields. Yes, even that one.".

Also, that capstone ability? Amazing. However, if you bring out two weapon fighting and lightning mace shenanigans (heck, you don't even need an aptitude weapon, you can just use the maces), the number of attacks is insane, and the damage from the criticals are brutal.

Dumbledore lives
2011-05-30, 12:02 AM
It's certainly powerful, more so than the ToB classes even. The ability to just win checks, especially after the level 19 ability is an incredible boost, and allows just about any combat maneuver to be successful, regardless of size.

The only thing is that it will still have enormous trouble with spell casters, as with the anti-magic they lose a significant amount, and the caster can still orb them to oblivion. It looks like they really need some mobility powers, not based off a theoretical mount.

Some limited ability to fly or teleport could be extremely useful. Something like the ToB mobility maneuvers, like Shadow Jaunt.

Seerow
2011-05-30, 12:09 AM
My first impression is this is tier 3 at best. Don't get me wrong, the class is strong. Frighteningly so in some respects, but the tiers aren't about raw strength. Remember, a character who is really good at only one thing is a Tier 4. A Hulking Hurler or Ubercharger may deal ridiculous damage, but is still low tier because it is one easily shut down trick. I think what you have here is more flexible than that, but not on par with the ability to reshape reality a sorcerer has. It probably has more combat power, but less combat options, than a ToB class, but the skill list (Particularly UMD/UPD) keeps it at tier 3, and probably at the upper end of it.

1) Skill Mastery is really funky. Just get rid of it, or give a bonus to initiative. The whole "I go before someone with lower dex" thing is just really clunky. And it also seems to read as if you can also automatically win any grapple or trip attempt as long as you have higher dex than your opponent. Again, really weird, can be done with a standard bonus instead.

2) Critical Mastery similarly seems clunky. Why not just add the Myrmidon's Int (or dex, really, because you seem to be splitting stats and making this class MAD like crazy, which doesn't lend itself well to high tier play) mod to effective level for overcoming Uncanny Dodge? Much smoother and easier to adjucate that way, while still getting the same thing across.

3) Improved Battle Mastery's interraction with skill mastery is as clunky as skill mastery. Like I mentioned above, just nix the whole "My dex is higher so I win" thing and get rid of the synergy here (or just say at this level your skill mastery bonus increases, if you go the route of making skill mastery a flat bonus to the checks in question)

4) Size/Competence/Luck/Morale/Resistance/Circumstance Mastery all seem out of place. They're a flat numbers boost to a class that's already pretty good at the numbers game, and all of them make the class reliant on outside sources (since UMDing buffs from scrolls/wands tends to result in a pretty sub-par buff. Though making command mastery come before these, and make it so you can use UMD to use a wand/scroll and treat it as though it had your class level as the caster level would make these abilities worth a bit more, it also makes the class much more reliant on such expendable resources, and feels kind of out of character)

5) Master Myrmidon, the capstone, is worded such that it can actually reduce your threat range or reduce your crit multiplier. For example Death Mastery already doubles your crit threat range, and stacks with keen, and increases your crit multiplier by 1. Just as quick examples, a Scythe once you gain this would go from 17-20x5 to 15-20x4. A greatsword would go from 13-20x3 to 15-20x4. A rapier would go from 9-20x3 to 15-20x4

(Speaking of, that 9-20 threat range is the reason why keen effects don't stack in D&D)

Quellian-dyrae
2011-05-30, 12:50 AM
I also think this falls into the "better stats does not equal higher tier" area. I see a lot of abilities that soup up raw stats, grant automatic successes (which I'm leery of, personally; D&D needs fewer auto-success options, not more), remove penalties, and increase damage, but not as many that give unique tactical or (especially) utility options.

In-depth analysis below:

I like Battle Mastery. I like the "I'm proficient with everything. Yes, even that," aspect of the Weapon/Armor/Shield masteries. I kinda wonder if the four of them together are too much at level one, but really it's just saying, "You can use any mundane option with competence." So, why not? Removing all penalties from the armor or shields...I dunno, it kinda goes against the point to me. It means that all myrmidons will be using heavy armor, since there's no reason not to. The tower shield is less of a problem, since shields could use the help. The stat boosts...just make the stats higher. It's easy to make a warrior's stats higher.

Skill Mastery, I mentioned what I think about auto-successes. I'd either drop it, or change it so the myrmidon can take 10 on Str and Dex checks. Or maybe get a bonus on them equal to half its level or something (I know, I'm saying it doesn't need loads of stat boosts, but a traditional weakness of warriors is that at high levels they can't compete against the giant monsters they'll be fighting in this area, so this is a place that a solid boost can do some good).

Stamina Mastery is a stat boost (and a massive one, with a d12 HD).

Evasion, Mettle, and Uncanny Dodge all at 2nd is very front-loaded. If you're giving all of them, I'd at least spread them out some.

Critical Mastery is a huge damage boost, in a game where dealing massive damage is already too easy. It also means that there is no real reason for a myrmidon not to use a X4 crit weapon (I'm figuring the default myrmidon load-outs will be whatever the big exotic super plate is, and either a mercurial greatsword, a mercurial longsword and tower shield, or two mercurial longswords with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting).

I like terrain mastery. Gives some much-needed mobility and a bit of battlefield control.

I like charge mastery. Might come a little early, but pounce is always good and the thrown attack is a fun little capability.

Steed mastery...eh. As written, it makes Mounted Combat an auto-success to negate a hit to your mount each round, and I don't really see a reason for a mounted character to not actually put the ranks in Ride (and if they do, they can probably succeed the checks anyway).

Improved Battle Mastery seems solid. Improved Uncanny Dodge is a classic.

Opportunity Mastery...eh...unlimited attacks of opportunity per round is somewhat worrisome to me, although really, the 1/creature limit can even make this a hindrance in some sense, if you have Robillar's Gambit or a similar ability (such as the -6 effect of Defense Mastery gained at the same level). So I dunno on this one.

Defense Mastery is basically free Combat Expertise with a Karmic Strike/Robillar's Gambit style effect thrown in with a high enough penalty. I kinda like it, actually, trading accuracy for the chance to strike back rather than defense.

Melee Mastery is an improved version of power attack...but I suppose as-written, it doesn't stack with other power attack improvers, so it might actually be more balanced in the long run. Plus flurry. Yeah, I like that one too.

Ranged Mastery's defense for attack rolls is kind of tricksy, since at range you're less likely to be attacked anyway. I'm not sure here, because while it does support the "archers need to stay at range and be protected" idiom, the myrmidon isn't a dedicated archer...eh, ranged needs some sort of "stance" style feat (ability, whatever), so why not?

Death Mastery, so now my Keen Mercurial Sword has an 18-20/X5 threat range, and auto-crits a flanked or flat-footed target to boot? Way too much damage.

{Insert Bonus Here} Mastery is just a whole bunch of stat boosts. I'd drop them all.

Improved Evasion's a classic. Improved Mettle I think has a typo; it says if the save succeeds you only suffer the partial effect. I imagine that should be if it fails. My initial thought is that that's a pretty potent effect, but I guess if there is no partial (as there often isn't), it doesn't work, huh?

Command Mastery...I dunno. I get UMD is among the most powerful skills in the game...and a nice way to semi-balance non-casters with casters in a pinch...it just doesn't work for me.

Dispel Mastery's cool. I might rename it to "Spell Shredding" and change the fluff as just cleaving through buff spells and summons, but whatever works.

Oh well, Perfect Battle Mastery is basically that by-level boost for dealing with the big'uns I was talking about before. Fair enough.

Improved Charge Mastery and Improved Steed Mastery are solid (though I'm not quite sure why he can't move with his target with Improved Charge Mastery).

Improved Critical Mastery is an extension of the other critical abilities...eh...but worse. He can feint as a swift action, and skills are easy to boost. This is an at will no-save-just-die on anything that can be caught flat-footed and needs its head.

Improved Death Mastery is a basic stat boost, but it's one of the more fun ones.

Improved Dispel Mastery...eh, sure, it's easily level appropriate, why not?

Fortitude, Reflex, and Will mastery are auto-successes, and really pretty situational ones at that. I'd probably just drop them. They seem to encourage a bit much MAD in my opinion.

Strength/Dexterity/Constitution Mastery...UGH! Too much stat boost! You're even doubling the score itself, which means double the modifier and then add 5. Applies to attacks...damage...hit points...yeah, way too much.

And Master Myrmidon is more of the crit-supercharging stuff.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-30, 10:27 AM
Removing all penalties from the armor or shields...I dunno, it kinda goes against the point to me. It means that all myrmidons will be using heavy armor, since there's no reason not to.

Agree with this point. Piandao never wore any armor, and just carried a simple longsword, no shield.

Dryad
2011-05-30, 10:29 AM
I personally think this class is beyond broken.
I'm all for trying to achieve a powerbalance between melee classes and full casters at top level, honestly, but you should keep in mind that at the start, casters are extremely weak against non-casters.
Not all of the game happens at lvl 20, after all; most of it should happen during levelling, and even reaching lvl 20 should be a rarity.

I'd say: Nerf the living daylight out of the lower levels. Keep a progression going with more or less the same power-scaling as a full caster, and at the end, things should balance out. A few things to keep in mind: Strategy works; non-casters can go at it all day long, while casters lose spells. Casters are relatively easy to lock down with a grapple/pin throttle, and can't take damage worth a teddy-bear; a patient non-caster can use strategy and deception to get the jump on a caster.

There are also other ways to balance things out. The amount of wealth dished out by the DM guide is simply stupidly high; limiting the player's access to all that stupendously powerful gear should make things more even.

I also believe that if a certain type of class is overperforming, the sollution is not to fix other roles/classes to that powerlevel; the sollution is to nerf the overachiever.

Seerow
2011-05-30, 10:36 AM
casters are extremely weak against non-casters.
:smallconfused:



A few things to keep in mind: Strategy works; non-casters can go at it all day long, while casters lose spells. Casters are relatively easy to lock down with a grapple/pin throttle

Until level 7 when freedom of movement comes into play and no caster worth his salt is grappleable no matter how good you are?


and can't take damage worth a teddy-bear;

Um yeah, if you only look at the hit die and ignore the host of defenses that a caster has access to...


a patient non-caster can use strategy and deception to get the jump on a caster.

:smallconfused:




There are also other ways to balance things out. The amount of wealth dished out by the DM guide is simply stupidly high; limiting the player's access to all that stupendously powerful gear should make things more even.

That actually balances things in favor of casters.


I also believe that if a certain type of class is overperforming, the sollution is not to fix other roles/classes to that powerlevel; the sollution is to nerf the overachiever.

If this was all you posted, I'd agree with you. But judging by the meat of your post you have no idea what you are talking about, and should probably stay away from balance discussions.

Elfstone
2011-05-30, 11:26 AM
Im not so sure we are playing the same game dryad, if you believe what you posted. I thought it was a prank at first.

Anyway, about the Tier one melee... Yeah giving them massive boosts and the most powerful chassis ever is not going to solve anything. First we must ask, why are casters tier 1. Because they cast spells. Lots of them. Endless amounts of them. Of all types and variety. So we must conter that. That is what ToB attempted to do. They had the right idea, but not enough of them, nor enough power boosting feats and such. Like, manouver meta...skill feats? Casters get all the love with feats and such. I would even go so far and make reserve feats for ToB classes, like a +1 or more bonus to something while X manouvers still remained unused.

Dryad
2011-05-30, 03:45 PM
I said 'at the start.' I don't believe we play the same tiers, really. In our groups, we rarely ever get beyond level 10, and that's a high level.
'At the start' is levels 1-3. And if you think those levels don't matter, well; sure. That depends on how you play the game, I guess. But for some people, those levels do matter.

Also, low resources puts the balance in favour of the non-caster. No wands, no scrolls, hardly any spellbooks... Casters can go 'boom' a few times, and do so extremely convincingly, of course; they can dish out damage non-casters can only dream about... But only a few times per day.
Non-casters can go at it all day long.


Until level 7 when freedom of movement comes into play and no caster worth his salt is grappleable no matter how good you are?
Freedom of Movement has a duration, and is limited in the number of times used per day, eating up valuable spell slots in the process. Maybe a caster has ONE prepared.

Um yeah, if you only look at the hit die and ignore the host of defenses that a caster has access to...
Not at the start, they don't. And even then, those defences cost spell slots, and have a duration, so unless you put a permanency on each of them (not likely on starting levels), they won't do you much good unless you're the one doing the preparation and getting the jump on people.

a patient non-caster can use strategy and deception to get the jump on a caster.
This means: Planning, and striking when the caster isn't suspecting anything.

We're simply looking at all this from completely different angles. Raw output per round: The caster wins, hands down. Raw defensive power: The caster wins again, hands down. World-altering things: Provided enough riches, the caster again wins hands down.
BUT: Casters have a per-day limit, their starting power is low (even though their ending power is incredibly tremendous), and these are definite weak spots. Of course; clerics and druids can just melee everything to smithereens, so these barely count, but wizards and sorcerors... Not quite. Once they run out of boom, they're dead weight.


But judging by the meat of your post you have no idea what you are talking about, and should probably stay away from balance discussions.
Judging your posts, you simply have no idea of what I'm talking about, and are not much in a position to argue with me on that basis. Happy now? Yes, I needed to be snarky, there.

Elfstone
2011-05-30, 05:09 PM
As I was getting ready to start some number crunching, and completely disprove about half of what you said, I realized this is NOT the place to have the argument. It really isn't. What this place is, is a place to help improve the current class as much as possible. We both have out own ways of doing it.
Of course, this can be moved to PM's if you prefer...

Also, if the highest level you get to is 10, then your playing E10. Different game.

Dryad
2011-05-30, 05:29 PM
True. This is not the topic to discuss the power of arcane casters. However, this topic does discuss a class that would be (close to) equal in power to full arcanists.
And the truth of the matter is: On low levels, this class blows everything away. Therefore, it is severely unbalanced on low levels.

Elfstone
2011-05-30, 05:41 PM
Uhh.. A few orbs of acid should kill him just as easily as that fighter next to him. As long as its Touch Ac (because at lower levels, he dosn't have ghost touch) hes just as vulnerable as everyone else.

Mangles
2011-05-30, 06:29 PM
I don't know about the balance of this class, but if this was available no one would play a rouge/barbarian/fighter/anything else melee. It would be much stronger just to play this class with different skill sets or feat selections.

Moose Man
2011-05-30, 06:34 PM
It's kinda the point of the class. :smalltongue:

YouLostMe
2011-05-30, 09:00 PM
Uhh.. A few orbs of acid should kill him just as easily as that fighter next to him. As long as its Touch Ac (because at lower levels, he dosn't have ghost touch) hes just as vulnerable as everyone else.

I disagree. He rolls full HP at every HD.

EDIT: In other news, I think this is pretty strong material, but I don't think it can win against Sorcerers and Spirit Shamans and the like. Those guys just have the capabilities to shut monsters down, which is why they're so OP.

He needs some mobility--flight, faster movement--and a better way to deal damage--more dice instead of bonuses to hit or more AoOs.

He also wants less passive options. In my experience, playing an invoker, caster, or initiator is fun because I have a list of abilities and I am picking and choosing what to do from that list. This is, while stocked with different benefits, very passive. Kind of like Iameki's Guard class, it's a strong NPC class and not much more.

Elfstone
2011-05-30, 09:56 PM
I disagree. He rolls full HP at every HD.

Fine then. My warmage rolls max on both his orbs of acid. Still dead.

NeoSeraphi
2011-05-30, 10:34 PM
There have been a lot of compelling points here, and I agree with most of them.

It's unfortunate, but I believe that what I have created completely missed the bar I set for myself, and I'm not sure how to balance it properly. Thank you all for your comments, but at this point I believe the best thing is for me to simply let it go and focus on other projects. This particular homebrew is just above my head. I'm not that good at it yet.

So I'm going to close the thread.

YouLostMe
2011-05-31, 12:50 AM
Fine then. My warmage rolls max on both his orbs of acid. Still dead.
(I know this is closed, but this is really bothering me)
Wat? I'm using a ruling that's part of the class. You're pretending circumstances favor your warmage's orb of X.

I'm not sure if you didn't read the class, you forgot, or I'm being trolled...

Elfstone
2011-05-31, 05:58 AM
I read ir right before I made that comment, but I still missed Stamina Mastery. My bad.

I assumed I was being trolled.

(I know this is closed, but this is really bothering me)
Wat? I'm using a ruling that's part of the class. You're pretending circumstances favor your warmage's orb of X.

I'm not sure if you didn't read the class, you forgot, or I'm being trolled...