Question about spring attack/shot on the run

[Seharvepernfan]

Is a spring attack a full round action? Is it a standard action that you move for free during?

Can a character with spring attack or shot on the run take a move action during his turn (say, move his base speed - 30ft.), then as a standard action, move 20ft., attack, move 10ft. back?

I always thought it was a full round action, but it doesnt actually say what it is in the feat description, it only says "When using the attack action with a melee/ranged weapon."

I looked up attack action in the PHB table of contents, which is listed as page 139, but nowhere on the page is "attack action" mentioned specifically.

[Gurgeh]

A spring attack is two separate actions, one inside the other: a move action to move, and a standard action to perform a standard attack. It's identical to charging or a straightforward move + attack in terms of action economy: the advantage comes from the fact that you don't have to attack at the beginning or the end of your move.

[Seharvepernfan]

This is what I always thought, but where does it actually state this?

[Greenish]

A spring attack is two separate actions, one inside the other: a move action to move, and a standard action to perform a standard attack. It's identical to charging or a straightforward move + attack in terms of action economy: the advantage comes from the fact that you don't have to attack at the beginning or the end of your move.Spring Attack doesn't allow for a standard action, only a single attack, though.

[Eldariel]

A spring attack is two separate actions, one inside the other: a move action to move, and a standard action to perform a standard attack. It's identical to charging or a straightforward move + attack in terms of action economy: the advantage comes from the fact that you don't have to attack at the beginning or the end of your move.

Strictly speaking, Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) and Shot on the Run (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shotOnTheRun) are not actions at all. Instead, they modify how you may spend your movement for the turn on turns where you use attack actions. Interestingly, if you had e.g. Travel Devotion I surmise you could full attack and move before and after the attack with just that one move action since Spring Attack and Shot on the Run don't actually modify what actions you use to move; they just modify how you can use them to move. That is, you can use it both before and after an attack action, instead of having to take it before or after said action.

What you want is Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack); it allows for standard actions. It also doesn't have ****ty prerequisites. Overall, it's the only good "X and move" feat in the game, and even it's only good if you have some worthwhile standard actions to take (such as spellcasting, breath weapons, strikes or maybe Manyshot).

[CalamaroJoe]

I have a question that is related: how I can best take benefit from Spring attack?
Till now I never found a useful situation in which to use it. Maybe I need some tactical advice from the playground...
The only usefulness I found is as a prerequisite for the nice Whirlwind Attack, that I like very much.

[Eldariel]

I have a question that is related: how I can best take benefit from Spring attack?
Till now I never found a useful situation in which to use it. Maybe I need some tactical advice from the playground...
The only usefulness I found is as a prerequisite for the nice Whirlwind Attack, that I like very much.

It's just not very good. If you take the Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz-feats from Player's Handbook II, it gets a bit better. You still miss out on any bonus attacks you'd have though, such as from Haste or comparables. And Whirlwind Attack is hugely situational as well; basically never worth the effort of picking it up as such.

[Seharvepernfan]

I have a question that is related: how I can best take benefit from Spring attack?
Till now I never found a useful situation in which to use it. Maybe I need some tactical advice from the playground...
The only usefulness I found is as a prerequisite for the nice Whirlwind Attack, that I like very much.

It's a good feat for scouts, fighting large monsters you dont want to get full-attacked by, moving to and from cover against enemies who are gonna whoop you if they hit you, casters using touch spells, and potentially rogues for moving to and from concealment and for opportunistic flanking.

[Eldariel]

It's a good feat for scouts, fighting large monsters you dont want to get full-attacked by, moving to and from cover against enemies who are gonna whoop you if they hit you, casters using touch spells, and potentially rogues for moving to and from concealment and for opportunistic flanking.

Spring Attack doesn't work with casters; you need to actually cast the spell unless you have some charge reserved; you can't cast spells with Spring Attack. Flyby Attack is of interest to them.

Scouts have better options (Spring Attack is 3 feats for the first feat and 2 more feats to make it non-****ty) and melee types...well, it's not that solid a party tactic since if the melee type Spring Attacks back and forth, not only does he decrease his damage output compared to full attacks but he also ensures the enemy bruiser has free access to the more dangerous party members.


Overall, Spring Attack is at best a mediocre answer to a horrible situation.

[Greenish]

Spring Attack doesn't work with casters; you need to actually cast the spell unless you have some charge reserved; you can't cast spells with Spring Attack.There's the interpretation where casting a touch attack spells also gives you the attack to deliver it, and since you don't have to use it straight after casting, you'd have an attack action and a move action left after casting something as a standard action, so you could Spring Attack.

Still a bit too feat-hungry, though, even if that works.

[Eldariel]

There's the interpretation where casting a touch attack spells also gives you the attack to deliver it, and since you don't have to use it straight after casting, you'd have an attack action and a move action left after casting something as a standard action, so you could Spring Attack.

Still a bit too feat-hungry, though, even if that works.

Hm, I can see that. Makes sense I suppose. Huh; never thought of it, honestly. But yeah, Flyby Attack is better anyways; works unambiguously, doesn't have poor prerequisite feats, etc.

[Amphetryon]

There's also Mobile Spellcasting, which expressly replicates what Spring Attack does for casters. I suppose it's situationally useful to a Duskblade.

[Gurgeh]

There's the interpretation where casting a touch attack spells also gives you the attack to deliver it, and since you don't have to use it straight after casting, you'd have an attack action and a move action left after casting something as a standard action, so you could Spring Attack.
What's an "attack action"? There's no such thing.

Actions can be Free, Immediate, Swift, Move, Standard, or Full-Round. Melee touch spells don't give you extra actions if you choose to hold the charge - they still take a standard action to cast, and barring discharging them with an attack of opportunity, they take another standard action to discharge if you choose not to burn them at the time of casting.

[Eldariel]

What's an "attack action"? There's no such thing.

Actions can be Free, Immediate, Swift, Move, Standard, or Full-Round. Melee touch spells don't give you extra actions if you choose to hold the charge - they still take a standard action to cast, and barring discharging them with an attack of opportunity, they take another standard action to discharge if you choose not to burn them at the time of casting.

"Attack action" is basically an action that can be used to make an attack or an attack replacement effect (Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, etc.). Whenever you attack someone, you tend to be taking an attack action (it's not really an action in the traditional sense; you take one as a part of an AoO and yet this does not privilege you in any ways taking an action does); it's just terminology for a single attack that can then be replaced with the various things you can do instead of an attack.

It's official terminology; just read the Spring Attack description, for example.

[Gurgeh]

Well yes, I'm well aware that an action can be characterised as an "attack action", but it's not a class of action in the same sense as move/standard/etc. You're not entitled to any "attack actions" as part of your character's turn, you must use standard (or full-round, etc etc) actions to perform an attack action.

[Curmudgeon]

Spring Attack is an attack action (which type is of "attack action" is undefined, but the standard action attack is the only one that works without some form of attaining extra actions), inside a split move action.

From the Special Edition Player's Handbook 3.5:

SPRING ATTACK

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. This is "stealth errata", but at least we've got a definitive answer.

Edit: "Attack action" is used, but never defined, in the D&D game. It could be any of the following:

full attack action (the only option which includes that exact text)
standard action attack
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as granted by Improved Trip
With a way of gaining an extra move action (such as with one charge from a Belt of Battle) you could use Spring Attack with the full attack action.

[Bonefreak11]

I have another question. If you have both of them can you use both? I play a Scout, which is very mobility based if you've never heard of the class, and using them in conjunction could let me do some pretty sick ****.

[Enguebert]

Overall, Spring Attack is at best a mediocre answer to a horrible situation.

Spring attack has some advantages

- if opponent has reach, you don't give AoO to your opponent
- if you have reach and your opponent don't have reach, if he want to hit you, he must move and give you AoO
- versus slow opponent, you can hit them and be out of range
- if opponent has lot of attacks, you don't stay next to him so he can't do a full attack

It is mostly useful for character who want to attack in melee but don't want to be attacked :smallsmile:
This feat is not bad for a fighter, it is bad for the wizard that will be attacked because the fighter doesn't block the monster :smallbiggrin: