What To Take? (Pathfinder)

[Man With Dog]

Hey Guys,

I have posted here a few times as i am new to Pathfinder and very much finding my feet in some ways.
In Pathfinder games i currently have a Ranger in one game and a Inquisitor in another but due to work a new game is starting with a new DM and i look like i have an Elven Rogue so far.
Looking through the group though: Barbarian - Monk - Bard - Unknown - Cleric and Rogue.

My question is: Is a rogue really needed with the Bard around? And if not - what do you think i should take instead? I woud like to take something needed before the game gets really underway. I have decent stats. 2 x 16's, 15, 13, 11, 11 (possibly a little better but i dont have them to hand right now.

I initally thought i would throw my hand at a spellcaster - Wizard, Sorceror or Eidolon.

Any suggestions or tips you guys may wanna offer?

[Halae]

Technically speaking, no class is actually needed. However, as a rogue you get something that no other class gets at all - trapfinding. This in itself can be a serious life-saver.

However, if you find that you can, I'd suggest either playing a wizard or Sorcerer. the reasoning for this is simple - they have spells that can essentially duplicate a rogue's abilities, and you can contribute to the group with more versatility (at least if you take wizard) than you can as a rogue. After all - need to get a message somewhere fast? the rogue could take a horse out and kill it riding to the destination, or you could just cast lesser planar binding and have an outsider with teleport deliver it for you. or just use teleport to deliver it yourself

[Man With Dog]

Technically speaking, no class is actually needed. However, as a rogue you get something that no other class gets at all - trapfinding. This in itself can be a serious life-saver.

However, if you find that you can, I'd suggest either playing a wizard or Sorcerer. the reasoning for this is simple - they have spells that can essentially duplicate a rogue's abilities, and you can contribute to the group with more versatility (at least if you take wizard) than you can as a rogue. After all - need to get a message somewhere fast? the rogue could take a horse out and kill it riding to the destination, or you could just cast lesser planar binding and have an outsider with teleport deliver it for you. or just use teleport to deliver it yourself

Relatively inexperienced with Spell Casters and definitely with PathFinder spell casters. Are there ways to make them crowd control and such or is it bes tot go pew pew pew with big fireballs etc?

[Talentless]

Relatively inexperienced with Spell Casters and definitely with PathFinder spell casters. Are there ways to make them crowd control and such or is it bes tot go pew pew pew with big fireballs etc?

One of the biggest beefs with Pathfinder on these forums, and many others, is that Paizo and Pathfinder didn't really nerf spells at all. Some got some minor nerfs, but most of the spells that could break the game stayed, and at the same level.

So yes, CC spells abound for wizards. The Batman Wizard is still available in Pathfinder.

[Man With Dog]

One of the biggest beefs with Pathfinder on these forums, and many others, is that Paizo and Pathfinder didn't really nerf spells at all. Some got some minor nerfs, but most of the spells that could break the game stayed, and at the same level.

So yes, CC spells abound for wizards. The Batman Wizard is still available in Pathfinder.

As i said - very limited experience eith Wizards....
Batman wizard? (you can link a location if you prefer i read it)

Is there any handbooks for assistance on Wizard builds so if i make one i can make him VERY useful instead of just an occasional fireball and making myself invisible.
We will be starting at level 1 as of about Friday.

[Kenneth]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test


that is a guide form teantmonk, a well known optimizer specifically for the pathfidner wizard.

he seems a bit stuck on summons spells as being amazing (which they are, don't get me wrong) but they are not the end all of spells, basically as soon asyou hit 3rd level.. learn glitterdust.

also get grease ASAP! also silent image and ghostdoun means awesome illusion time.

I recently soloed a CR 10 encounter with my lvl 5 wizard becuase I silent imaged along with ghost sounded a green dragon, needless to say the other guy failed his save and the dragon proceeded to, well feast.


(of course this was after the DM argued for an hour that even though he missed the dragon he still hit it, and should not bleie its an illusion to which I rpelied, he failed his save, so for him the illusion is actually real!"

SIDE NOTE-- I didn;t argue back literally all i sad was ' they failed for their sofor them teh dragon si actually real, not fake, and when he rpleid about real world phsycis I said " and I can float in mid air for 5 minutes and launce fireballs with a flick of my wrist.. real world physics don't apply in a fantasy setting"

luckiy though he had a good firned who took my side whne posed the disagreement.


##EDIT##

treantmonk also mis-read the universalist wizard rules.. you do not give up anything, and it has a pretty amazing ability. the begining one 'hand fo the apprntice' is crap whne you factor in you can spam your 0-level spells all day

at 8th level you get to apply a metamagic feat that you have to a spell for free, provided are teh right level ( at 8th it reduced teh metamagic level increase by one futher reducing it by 1 every 2 wizard levels afterward, so its actually pretty sweet)

[Retech]

Pretty sure that believing that a silent image is real does not mean that it is actually real. :)

[kharmakazy]

Yeah, silent images can't deal real damage directly without some cheese.

I have used it to make fake walls with arrow holes for archers to shoot through.

[maysarahs]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test

I recently soloed a CR 10 encounter with my lvl 5 wizard becuase I silent imaged along with ghost sounded a green dragon, needless to say the other guy failed his save and the dragon proceeded to, well feast.


(of course this was after the DM argued for an hour that even though he missed the dragon he still hit it, and should not bleie its an illusion to which I rpelied, he failed his save, so for him the illusion is actually real!"

SIDE NOTE-- I didn;t argue back literally all i sad was ' they failed for their sofor them teh dragon si actually real, not fake, and when he rpleid about real world phsycis I said " and I can float in mid air for 5 minutes and launce fireballs with a flick of my wrist.. real world physics don't apply in a fantasy setting"

luckiy though he had a good firned who took my side whne posed the disagreement.


Actually there's a few things wrong with this. Silent image is a figment which according to the SRD cannot have any real effects including damage (link to the PFSRD: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Illusion) also, I think there was a wizards article (sorry for switching editions, but they are similar enough that theory articles usually apply) on the nature of illusions saying that if someone "hits" an illusion's AC they automatically disbelieve it or at least get a second saving throw with a strong bonus. As a final nitpick, silent image has a duration of concentration while ghost sound is one round/level, so you had to cast the sounds first before the image for it to work. Sorry, but your DM was in the right on this one.

[McSmack]

Play what you want to play, not what you think the party wants you to play. If you're wanting to play a rogue, go for it. They bring a lot to the table, and are a bit more versitile in Pathfinder.

If you're uncomfortable with spellcasters, you might want to wait on going wizard til you've got more experience under your belt. They are awesome and they rock the house at higher levels but they're a whole different animal from rangers or inquisitors (though both have some spellcasting ability.)

You can always multiclass, rogue/wizard/arcane trickster might work well for you.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, if your going evil you also may want to check out the Necromancy specialty. Unlike 3.5e, the pathfinder wizard is no longer bad at necromancy, mainly because a necro specialist wizard gets Rebuke(Or channeling + command undead, in pathfinder terms) and thus can make an infinite-sized undead at level 6 without even having access to the animate dead spell.(By rebuking a spawn-creating undead like, say, a shadow.) Also, the agent of the grave PrC significantly boosts the wizard's minionmancy power, especially due to allowing him to use mind effecting spells on undead, which means you can go around and dominate person any undead you want as your minion. Yeah, cleric is a faster entry to the class but it's actually better on a wizard since it's class features are keyed off of INT and Cha, which means a necro wizard will suffer far less MAD and gain greater benefits from it then a cleric would.

If your not going evil then generalist and conjurer are both good choices as the former means no banned schools and free metamagic and the latter's school happens to hold the best spells in the game. Illusion is also a good specialty but more niche' then the other two, though if you like that kind of thing it can be very good, still highly versatile and is no more niche' then the Necromancy specialty I mentioned above.

As for non-wizards...well, there are plenty of options. Sorc is almost as good and in all honesty if you want to play a rogue, PLAY A ROGUE. They are your character and thus you should play what you want to play(and what the DM allows)....besides, take rank in UMD and you can mitigate the lack of an arcane caster in the party.

[Kenneth]

I guess I need to be more precise here. It was my familiar who did the concentrating for me. The illusion never actually DID anything except 'eat' the dead guys. The guys who 'hit' its AC. The DM was at the time saying that your atack round is supposed to represent all of your actions during that attack and some still hit but didn't manage to cause any damage. to which I told him, AC, HP and the like are abstracts forms of representing something. Regardless of if you had 'hits' if you don't meet the AC you never actually have a HIT.

SO while My hedgehog familiar did my concentration I managed to cast ghost sounds and cast Acid breath a few times on the group of guys. while stadning directly behind the image of the dragon.


this whole time the dragon never actually did anything exept stand there looking like a dragon and thanks to my ghost sound sound like a dragon.

in terms of any damage done, I did that personally with my spells while my hedgehog kept up the silent image. I said the dragon proceeded to feast becuase this whole time (well untill the very end when somebody actually manage to successfully hit it and thereby disbelieve) the guys attempted to attack the dragon, and failed miserably. all the while I cast both my 3rd level spells, grease, and tossed a jug of alchemist fire into the grease area. of I ended the illusion the round that I tossed the jug and proceeded to backtrack, this is where teh flaming grease came in handy, they all fell in the grease area taking the nice burn damage. I then acid splashed them to death.

[subject42]

As another suggestion for you, take a look at the Urban Ranger. It ends up playing as a more combat-focused rogue, complete with lots of skillpoints and trapmonkeying.