Some questions about the Ruby Knight Vindicator

[Essence_of_War]

I asked this in the Simple Q&A by RAW thread and got somewhat confusing answers, so rather than derail that, I thought I'd make a new thread for it.

The original question was this:

"Does a cleric with levels in Prestige Paladin class qualify to take the Battle Blessing feat? If so, how does Battle Blessing interact with that player's spellcasting? Are all of his spells now Paladin spells and thus quicken-able? Or is it only that spells he knows that are also on the paladin list that are quicken-able?"

Claim A:

No.

The Prestige Paladin prestige class is a different class from the Paladin base class. Further, a Prestige Paladin does not cast Paladin spells, and thus does not qualify for Battle Blessing.

Claim B:

Yes.

If you'll notice you "gain access", those spells do not become a part of your classes class spell list. In other words you're gaining access to paladin spells, not placing paladin spells into your class spell list.
Because you gain access and therefore may cast Paladin spells... you are eligibile for "Battle Blessing"...



and No. You may only use Battle Blessing to cast those Paladin spells.


UNIQUE SPELLS
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists in the Player’s Handbook
(as well as similar lists in other books) contain a number of
spells that don’t appear on other classes’ spell lists. In general,
any character who enters one of these prestige classes should
gain access to spells unique to that class’s spell list from the
Player’s Handbook, at the same levels indicated for the standard
class. At the DM’s discretion, spells unique to that class’s spell
list found in other books may also be available, but on a case-bycase
basis. The DM may require such spells to be researched or
learned specifi cally by the character, rather than simply making
them freely available.


Doing my own homework, I agree with claim A because the Prestige Paladin doesn't say it gains Paladin spellcasting. Is this an accurate summary of the issue here, or is there more merit to claim B that I'm missing?

[tyckspoon]

I side with A when the question comes up. However, anything having to do with adding unusual spells to a class's spell access is almost always horribly poorly defined, with broad room for interpretation as to exactly how it works, so B is defensible as well. (And relatively mechanically balanced as well, compared to the "One of my classes has Paladin in the name-> All my spells are Paladin spells -> quicken everything all day erry day lolol" interpretation that is both broken and clearly wrong.)

[erikun]

I would agree with side A on a technical level. A Cleric has Cleric spellcasting, and a Cleric with Paladin spells on their list still only has Cleric spellcasting. It is the same deal with the Archivist, which has Archivist spellcasting and couldn't take the Battle Blessing feat despite having access to Paladin spells.

That said, I'm not familiar with Battle Blessing, so if it says something other than "Paladin spellcasting" I may be judging it wrong. I would still find it fair to apply Battle Blessing to (just) the Paladin spells on the character's spell list.

[Veyr]

What does this have to do with Ruby Knight Vindicator?

[Cog]

Gaining swift actions to cast your Battle Blessing'ed spells, I'd imagine.

[Essence_of_War]

In context I was looking at the advantages/disadvantages of different entry routes for the Ruby Knight Vindicator.

In retrospect, that doesn't seem obvious from the way I posed the question :smallredface:

[abadguy]

The question really depends on whether you are going to be the ONLY melee guy or a secondary one.

- If you're the only melee or the primary melee, take more Crusader levels, 1 level of cleric and then go RKV.
- If you really insist on Battle Blessing, consider dipping into Pious Templar or Holy Liberator. These PrCs explicitly state they use the paladin's spell list (for good aligned characters), which would make a stronger case for Battle Blessing than Prestige Paladin.
- In that case your build would possibly be:
Crusader 1/Full BAB class 3/Cleric 1/RKV 1/Pious Templar or Holy Liberator 1/RKV 2-7, advancing your PT or HL casting.

Of course there is the Paladin 4/Crusader 1 entry but this is imho the least optimal.


If you're secondary melee (i.e there is one other barb-type melee class), go with more cleric and forget Battle Blessing, going the DMM Quicken route instead. Otherwise, consider the Ordained Champion PrC which also offers spontaneous swift action casting of War Domain spells.

[Saintheart]

The question really depends on whether you are going to be the ONLY melee guy or a secondary one.

- If you're the only melee or the primary melee, take more Crusader levels, 1 level of cleric and then go RKV.
- If you really insist on Battle Blessing, consider dipping into Pious Templar or Holy Liberator. These PrCs explicitly state they use the paladin's spell list (for good aligned characters), which would make a stronger case for Battle Blessing than Prestige Paladin.
- In that case your build would possibly be:
Crusader 1/Full BAB class 3/Cleric 1/RKV 1/Pious Templar or Holy Liberator 1/RKV 2-7, advancing your PT or HL casting.

Of course there is the Paladin 4/Crusader 1 entry but this is imho the least optimal.

I'm always interested in this sort of discussion since I like to fine tune Red Hand of Doom. Most builds DMs seem to run for Wyrmlord Kharn (who's a Favored Soul 6/Talon of Tiamat 4 on the book) as a Paladin 4/Crusader 1/RKV 5 (character's level has to be 10 to match the book), but I'm always interested in superior builds to challenge parties. What's the optimal build for those 10 levels assuming you want a RKV? (In the book, he's the only caster on the field in that encounter, bar 4 hill giants and 2 ogres. Don't ask.) :smallsmile:

[Veyr]

Optimal would probably be Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5.

[Firechanter]

I've got my notes at home, but iirc the optimal stance and maneuver progression comes with Cleric(2)/ Crusader(2)/RKV(x). That way, you lose only one initiator level and RKV gains stances at levels where new stances actually become available.

[Veyr]

I've got my notes at home, but iirc the optimal stance and maneuver progression comes with Cleric(2)/ Crusader(2)/RKV(x). That way, you lose only one initiator level and RKV gains stances at levels where new stances actually become available.
Except spells are better than maneuvers, and tend to be hurt more by level loss than maneuvers are anyway. For every 2 spellcasting levels you save, you only lose 1 initiator level: it just makes sense to favor spellcasting because the rate of return is better.

Also, a Cleric 9/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 (replacing up to four Cleric levels with PrC levels that advance spellcasting) gets 9th level spells at 20th, while any more lost spellcasting levels nixes that. Your Initiator Level is only 15th, but 8th level maneuvers are still quite solid.

But yes, if you want to maximize maneuvers, you'd have to change it around. Just know that doing so costs you more in terms of spellcasting than the opposite costs you in terms of maneuvers. A Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 is better at maneuvers than a Cleric 1/Crusader 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 is at spells.

[Firechanter]

I'm not quite sure how relevant the boons you get exactly on level 20 are in actual play. My take is that if you are aiming for 9th level spells, see to it that you get them early on. But don't sacrifice a lot of stuff throughout your career for a level 20 payoff.

I now checked my notes; the ideal progression for a maneuver-oriented build is Cleric2/Crusader3/RKV10, because that gives you your stances at the ideal levels.
However, you're perfectly right that this takes away a lot from spellcasting; this level 15 character will only cast like a 10th level cleric, i.e. only 5th level spells instead of 8th level ones that a pure cleric would have.

Conversely, the problem with a Clr4/Crs1/RKV10 is that his stances will be rubbish, with a 3rd level stance (and 2 1st-level ones) at charlevel 10, and nothing after that.

[Veyr]

Meh, stances aren't that big a deal anyway. Martial Stance is an option if it's really necessary, as is simply taking some Cleric levels earlier.

Or convincing your DM that the stance progression is not well thought out, which the authors of Tome of Battle freely admitted, and ask to delay it.