Getting a base of operations on the cheap

[ILM]

I'm wondering what are the cheapest ways to get a nice base operations (for the purposes of this exercise, I propose to assume mansion-sized or larger) without some kind of DM or plot intervention?

Getting followers can be done through the Leadership feat, and one could also get the Landlorg feat in the Stronghold Builder's Guide to get a humongous allowance to get a base. Are there any other ways besides shelling out a substantial part of your WBL? I'm sure something could be done with a Lyre of Building, but I'm drawing a blank on getting the processed materials to build the thing (SBH mentions that hiring the workers represents about 30% of a building's cost...). I guess an immortal creature with True Creation and some ways to cast it without paying the XP cost could work, but it's both time consuming and a really, really specific build.

[Coidzor]

A few days with wall of stone and wall of iron gets you the superstructure, just need the land to do it on.

[Amnestic]

As per Cityscape, buying a villa/manor costs 2d8*1000gp, which isn't that large an investment, especially if you're lucky with your rolls.

[Deimess]

There are ways to get a nice, somewhat customized mansion sized base for an affordable price using the SBG (if you do it right). However, 2d8*1,000gp sounds like a pretty good deal to me, especially if you're high enough level to start looking at a base.

[ILM]

Wut? How did they go from the 100,000 gp mansion in the SRD to the 2d8*1000 gp manor house (which is pretty much a synonym, I checked :smalltongue:) in Cityscape?

[Forged Fury]

They probably figured 100Kgp was a little excessive for a house? That's a ton of money.

Edit: Where are mansions in the SRD? I can't find them.

[ericgrau]

Druid move earth spells can help a great deal. Wall of stone is actually crazy thin though and not very good for constructing.

Manor house is probably a small mansion while mansion is a big mansion :smalltongue:. Or at least the manor house I looked up seemed reasonably sized for a 10 bedroom house. Big but not huge.

EDIT: Mansions are here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#cityBuildings . Incidentally a grand house is only 5,000 gp. EDIT EDIT: Hmm grand house is 4-10 rooms and mansion is 10-20 rooms, but has brick. That's quite a cutoff considering both might have 10 rooms. Must be the 3 little pigs tax.

[Coidzor]

Druid move earth spells can help a great deal. Wall of stone is actually crazy thin though and not very good for constructing

Move Earth + Wall of Stone seems like it would be good for layering stone and dirt for good, thick, insulation. Though, wall of Iron probably does help a bit more in that regard anyway...

[krai]

Easiest way to get a player home, kill a monster who lives in a cave or clear out a dungeon. Then make it your home, hire some people to keep it nice and to keep it from getting re-infested by monsters (unless you want to farm your home for xp.)

[Deimess]

Easiest way to get a player home, kill a monster who lives in a cave or clear out a dungeon. Then make it your home, hire some people to keep it nice and to keep it from getting re-infested by monsters (unless you want to farm your home for xp.)

Also if you're after something specific, you can just pay to add what you want onto it. Dungeons are ideal as well, because they often come with a plethora of premade traps :smallwink:.

Or, hint to your DM to run you through DCC#3, The Mysterious Tower, where the main prize is a sweet tower base with surrounding ruins (which are perfect for rebuilding to fit your needs).

[Dragon Elite]

Also, you can find some corpses and use skeleton miners to dig out a house. Or try and get your DM to let your caster to get a homebrew spell that creates a house.

[NNescio]

Move Earth + Wall of Stone seems like it would be good for layering stone and dirt for good, thick, insulation. Though, wall of Iron probably does help a bit more in that regard anyway...

Lyre of Building. Costlier compared to using spell slots, but requires less planning.

[Coidzor]

Lyre of Building. Costlier compared to using spell slots, but requires less planning.

Well, you have to plan to have item creation feats and the spare gold around to craft it and someone to play it.

[Jack_Simth]

Most the simple methods of getting a cheap base have already been mentioned.

1) Take a base of operations by force from someone who already has one.
2) Look through assorted sourcebooks, and buy it as cheaply as you can.
3) Wall of Stone (and possibly Wall of Iron, if you don't mind spending a bit of cash), Stone Shape, Fabricate, Transmute rock to Mud (and Dispel Magic) can all be combined over the course of a little time to make a nonmagical structure by way of magic. You might also want to add Continual Flame (done by way of Lesser Planar Binding on a Lantern Archon to bypass material component costs) and Illusory Wall for decoration and lighting. If you already have a mountainside, Disintegrate opens up a ten foot cube of a mountainside for each casting (and Shapechange gets you a beholder shape, so you can Disintegrate as a free action every round, if you're in a hurry... and Simulacrum can get you a Beholder at a lower level, but at greater expense).
4) Leadership, Landlord, and Stronghold Builder's Guide to make your own that way.

[Gavinfoxx]

SBG's prices are WAY WAY WAY WAY overpriced.

WAYYY...

Okay, you basically need a few of these spells:

Wall of Iron
Wall of Stone
Fabricate
Shape Metal
Stone Shape
Greater Stone Shape
Wood Shape
Stone Metamorphosis
Greater Stone Metamorphosis
Unseen Crafter
Unseen Servant
Soften Earth and Stone
Hardening
Ironwood
Transmute Rock to Mud
Transmute Mud to Rock
Transmute Metal to Wood
Transmute Stone to Sand
Transmute Sand to Glass
Move Earth
Nature's Rampart
Magecraft
Planar Ally
Greater Planar Ally
Planar Binding
Greater Planar Binding
Simulacrum

And the True Creation thing? Look at Djinn's stats VERY closely. Then look at Planar Binding or Planar Ally, and then Simulacrum. Then look at the types of wood in D&D that are naturally as strong as iron (Bronzewood, Duskwood). Figured out the combo yet? Yea, I thought so.

Also look at the feat Invisible Spell, and then Lesser Metamagic Rods, and then Wall of Iron. :)

and you are good.

Consider that by using many of the combos here, you can get many types of construction done WITHOUT PAYING A SINGLE COPPER PIECE. Then look at the 'including magical options' prices in the SBH. Then try and figure out what the REAL prices of magical construction should be *if a PC is doing the casting themselves* ...

[Jack_Simth]

Also look at the feat Invisible SpellAh, yes, how can I forget Invisible Spell from Cityscape? It's downright funny when not used on blasting spells, and particularly humorous on instant spells that leave lasting effects. Here, though, it's mostly useful for making windows. Invisible Wall of Stone. You have a nonmagical item that is completely invisible....

[ericgrau]

Well, you have to plan to have item creation feats and the spare gold around to craft it and someone to play it.

Buy it. Then take a 10 on the perform check and it's pretty easy

[Gavinfoxx]

Or Invisible Wall of Iron! You might have to paint it with some lacquer or clear sealant or wax or epoxy or something.

Also, in general, remember to use spells to boost your skill checks, and TAKE TEN when using say, Fabricate or a Lyre of Building! Remember, stacking morale / insight / luck / circumstance bonus giving spells can get you into the 30s EASY!

[ericgrau]

While a wall of iron meets the standard thickness it's actually the weakest wall listed next to wood. The last thing you want are foes battering ramming the walls instead of the gate. It seems counterintuitive but remember stone (in DMG construction not the spell) tends to be 1-3 foot thick while iron tends to be 3-5 inches thick. I don't think you could support upper floors with walls of iron either.

I think the best options so far are move earth, lyre of building and, for the small but intricate things, fabricate.

[Deimess]

SBG's prices are WAY WAY WAY WAY overpriced.

Not if you know how to use it right. It's a time commitment but you really can drag down the price a lot, especially if you have even 1/10 of the spells you listed.

Although I agree that you don't need to purchase a base if you have access to those spells.

[Coidzor]

While a wall of iron meets the standard thickness it's actually the weakest wall listed next to wood. The last thing you want are foes battering ramming the walls instead of the gate. It seems counterintuitive but remember stone (in DMG construction not the spell) tends to be 1-3 foot thick while iron tends to be 3-5 inches thick. I don't think you could support upper floors with walls of iron either.

Composite layering is generally the way to go with such things anyway.

[Big Fau]

If you have a LN, LE, or NE-aligned character (or a character with a high UMD check), you can make use of the Enveloping Pit (MiC) to create a portable base of operations. You can even use more than one to create an entire portable city.

[Zaq]

I'm personally fond of Bones of the Earth (a Druid spell from PHB2, level 6). It will basically get you one stone pillar (5' diameter, 20' high) per two caster levels. If nothing else, it's an excellent spell for decorating.

[Just_Ice]

Steal a commoner's house. It's going to annoy the DM, but it's basically the quickest method of procuring living quarters. Mansions are possible, too, but it takes some doing. If anyone's on vacation, or pilgrimage, or whatever, their house is now essentially your house.

I don't actually recommend doing this, but if you're really desperate it should be possible.

[Pika...]

I'm wondering what are the cheapest ways to get a nice base operations (for the purposes of this exercise, I propose to assume mansion-sized or larger) without some kind of DM or plot intervention?

If the DM is not a nerfing jerk, just point out the dungeon you just cleared is free for the taking. :smallbiggrin:

[Hirax]

Find a hillside, or the bottom of a vertical cliff, and start digging it out (via move earth if you're not into manual labor). Bam, no need to build walls, as long as dirt walls don't bother you. Otherwise wall of X could get you floors, walls, and ceilings with your choice of material (wall of stone is probably preferable since it's free with eschew materials). Having 1 entrance would of course be more secure, but if you want you could instead build multiple entrances, have windows, etc. No cost except for spell components so far, though investing in a good doors and some furniture wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Malimar]

If the DM is not a nerfing jerk, just point out the dungeon you just cleared is free for the taking. :smallbiggrin:

Just beware of load-bearing bosses (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoadBearingBoss)!

[Coidzor]

Find a hillside, or the bottom of a vertical cliff, and start digging it out (via move earth if you're not into manual labor). Bam, no need to build walls, as long as dirt walls don't bother you. Otherwise wall of X could get you floors, walls, and ceilings with your choice of material (wall of stone is probably preferable since it's free with eschew materials). Having 1 entrance would of course be more secure, but if you want you could instead build multiple entrances, have windows, etc. No cost except for spell components so far, though investing in a good doors and some furniture wouldn't be a bad idea.

I like to call this the Dwarven method of stronghold acquisition. :smallbiggrin:

[Pika...]

Just wondering, but doesn't a base of operations kind of defeat the purpose of D&D?

You know, PCs being wondering murderous hobos. :smallwink:



Just beware of load-bearing bosses (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoadBearingBoss)!

LoL. Barely got away from being stock on that site again. :smallbiggrin:

[NNescio]

Just wondering, but doesn't a base of operations kind of defeat the purpose of D&D?

You know, PCs being wondering murderous hobos. :smallwink:




LoL. Barely got away from being stock on that site again. :smallbiggrin:

Well, if they make the base mobile (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BaseOnWheels), or even better, a flying fortress... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlevz6ksp9w)

[Jack_Simth]

Find a hillside, or the bottom of a vertical cliff, and start digging it out (via move earth if you're not into manual labor). Bam, no need to build walls, as long as dirt walls don't bother you. Otherwise wall of X could get you floors, walls, and ceilings with your choice of material (wall of stone is probably preferable since it's free with eschew materials). Having 1 entrance would of course be more secure, but if you want you could instead build multiple entrances, have windows, etc. No cost except for spell components so far, though investing in a good doors and some furniture wouldn't be a bad idea.
If it's a dense hillside, you can also use Summon Monster III (Dire Badger).

[Johel]

The easy way :
(already suggested above)
Gather commoners and experts of different trades.
Pay them to build you a Mansion
"This ten- to twenty-room residence has two or three stories and is made of wood and brick. It has a slate roof."
100.000 gp

The Magic Way

Instant Fortress
You get a 10m high tower in very hard metal.
55.000 gp
Enjoy

The weird way :
Agree with your DM to get custom magic items.

Mage’s Magnificent Mansion (7th level spell)
You got a mansion in your pocket.
If you cast at CL 13, you got 26 hours before its duration expires.
Should be around 185.000 gp for a permanent MMM that would work like a tent :
You cannot move it if it is activated.
And you cannot desactivate it unless everyone is out.
But beside this, it's a nice extradimensional base.

[gorfnab]

The weird way :
Agree with your DM to get custom magic items.

Mage’s Magnificent Mansion (7th level spell)
You got a mansion in your pocket.
If you cast at CL 13, you got 26 hours before its duration expires.
Should be around 185.000 gp for a permanent MMM that would work like a tent :
You cannot move it if it is activated.
And you cannot desactivate it unless everyone is out.
But beside this, it's a nice extradimensional base.
I think your math might be off. Basically you need an item of 1/day Mage's Magnificent Mansion at CL13.

[Galileo]

The Deepstone Sentinel dwarven PrC from Tome of Battle has the ability to pull 5' or 10' stone pillars out of the ground as he pleases. He can dismiss them as a standard action, but otherwise they're permanent.

So basically, you should take that class, then hire yourself out as a builder. You get cash towards the non-stone parts of your fortress, and you can always break into somewhere you built! Bonus points if you managed to convince the BBEG to hire you to patch up the hole you made in his fortress last time you broke in.

[Tvtyrant]

I suggest getting an Instant Fortress, then making it fly with a group of items of Continuous Tensers Floating Disks.

[Coidzor]

By layering advantages, one can get the cost of building a stronghold using the SBG's rules can get down to 28.73997% (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.00) or so.

[Hirax]

One of thing I just thought of with wall of stone, is that it doesn't specify what kind of stone you create, thus this actually gives you some a lot of creative license, with DM permission. You could vary the color and type of stone made with different castings. Remember that stone comes in lots of different colors, so you could have white marble floors, blue basalt walls, and pink marble ceilings. You could also use it to create pillars, arches, and other supports: "This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces...you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire...The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenellations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area. " So it sounds like it doesn't come out smoothly polished, but you can structurally make whatever you want, you don't even need to dig out a hillside if you'd be happy with a freestanding stone fortress. Sadly stone shape specifically says it can't do fine details, so if you want a refined, palatial look you'd need to spend time sanding and polishing all the surfaces. And then of course you'd need to fit doors, windows, and other hardware to the place, and furnish it.

Some stones I'd consider are basalt (red (http://www.ancient-egypt.co.uk/people/images/geology---rock---course-gra.jpg)and blue (http://www.unilock.com/files/images/_resampled/r_me_PCOL_BO_CRT_Basalt_BelgianBlue.jpg)are nice), marble (http://www.stonecarver.com/marble.html) (look at all those colors, green, cream, white, black, etc.), obsidian (rainbow (http://www.mexconnect.com/photos/8775-7-p-unpolished-chunk-of-rainbow-obsidian-from-la-lobera-an)or black (http://www.brightworld.com/Pyramids/Obsidian_Pyramid_Large.html)), and granite (http://www.graniteland.com/stone/type/granite).

[Gavinfoxx]

I think Wall of Stone makes your basic Limestone. You'd need Greater Stone Metamorphosis to change it into something nicer.

[Hirax]

I don't think there's an appreciable difference between unworked marble, basalt, limestone, etc. Maybe obsidian since it's very glassy. I don't think it makes sense to rule that it could make some stones, but not others, since I think the only valuable earth materials in D&D are gems, metals, woods, and niche things like blue ice. However even if your DM does rule that, limestone is pretty nice. It's what was used to finish the exterior of some of the pyramids in Egypt.

[Coidzor]

Limestone can come in pink, white, cream, and blue varieties at the very least. And some of the cream varieties take on a lovely golden hue from the setting sun's rays.

[Gavinfoxx]

Actually the book with the Stone Metamorphosis spell GAVE the various stone types an Appreciable Difference. I think that book was Underdark?

[Hirax]

Yep, it's in Underdark, though I should have pointed out in my previous post that I checked that spell, and it specifically says you can't turn a stone into a more valuable kind of stone. I think it would be fair to allow wall of stone to create any igneous, sedimentary, or metamorphic rock though. That doesn't allow for anything of value to be created, I think. Unless you happen to know someone that's getting ready to build a fortress and doesn't have a level 9 wizard.

edit: huh, finally cracked the SBG open, if you build underground, as a special bonus stone walls are free anyway.
edit2: strangely, it goes on to say in an above ground setting, stone walls are not free if made by a 9th level caster, but they are if made by a 15th level caster. Some other strange rules, particularly with the fabricate spell.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

i always thought the stone from the wall of stone spell, was the local rock in the area.

[ILM]

I think your math might be off. Basically you need an item of 1/day Mage's Magnificent Mansion at CL13.
Nah, the beef I have with MMM is that when you recast it the duration doesn't reset on the current MMM, it's a whole new MMM that's cast - so you can't really hang your trophies on the walls unless you're ready to move every day.

But I think Gavinfoxx nailed it:
- Wall of Stone + Greater Stone Metamorphosis to get as much stone as you want (may take a few days)
- Wall of Iron / + Transmute Metal to Wood to get as much iron and wood as you want (may also take a few days)
- Unseen Crafter and/or Servant Horde to break that down to usable raw materials if necessary - wording on the Lyre of Building is unclear as to the quality and the level of pre-processing of base materials it needs
- Lyre of Building

Aside from the 13,000 gp Lyre, as a Sorc or Wiz all you need to pay for is a few castings of Transmute Metal to Wood from a Druid (and since it's a 40 ft burst, you probably don't need that many). And you can pretty much build anything like that, from a commoner house to Minas Tirith :smalltongue:.

[Johel]

I think your math might be off. Basically you need an item of 1/day Mage's Magnificent Mansion at CL13.

Sure...
Would cost 32.760 gp.
If you don't mind to move all your stuff out of the MMM every day before the spell stops, that's the way to go.

Having it permanent means that the spell keeps going until you desactivate the item.
This means that once you have chosen a location, you are fixed, no moving necessary.

[Jack_Simth]

edit2: strangely, it goes on to say in an above ground setting, stone walls are not free if made by a 9th level caster, but they are if made by a 15th level caster. Some other strange rules, particularly with the fabricate spell.16th, but there's a few reasons for these...

1) SBG is actually 3.0 material, and there's some differences in how assorted spells, skills, and items work (and how they're priced).
2) The thickness and area of the Wall of Stone spell varies with caster level. At 9th, you need 8 castings per unit, and it gives you a 15% discount on the walls. At 12th, it's 12 castings, and it gives a 50% discount. At 16th, the walls are free, and you need 12 castings per unit. At 20th, they're still free, but you only need 5 castings per unit. What it looks like is someone went through and did a bit of math on the thickness / area to figure out what the base structure would run.

[XianTheCoder]

For all the people recommending using spells to just build a base.... do you not play with DMs that require your character to have the appropriate skills (knowledge engineering/architecture/etc)? I've never played with a DM, nor would I allow my players, the ability to simply build a building with spells without making multiple fairly difficult skill checks to make sure it doesn't fall down. Also, you still need to acquire the land, and depending on the economics of the area, oftentimes acquiring the land is the most expensive part (I own property in 3 major US cities and I can tell you that in all 3 cases the actual plot of land is worth 2-3 times the building value), so the ability to get the materials and build the building really doesn't save in the cost a great deal (assuming that you are looking at it even halfway realistic). Knowing that I would have to invest in skills that are unlikely to be used often for anything other than this project, and I would still need to acquire the most expensive component (the land) at no mesurable price reduction, it just makes sense to either buy a base or take over an enemy base.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, there are some problems with using modern day standards and applying them to D&D:
1. Land cost is linked to population pressures; in many D&D worlds the world is in full blown "humanity in decline" mode, with huge stretches of land unowned and abandoned castles dotting the landscape. Land is going to be cheap.
2. Building a modern building is difficult; building one the Sumer/Egypt way by making tiny rooms filled with massive pillars is not. Hypostyle halls would require a check, but nothing like keeping a modern building (which is almost all space) up.

[XianTheCoder]

Well, there are some problems with using modern day standards and applying them to D&D:
1. Land cost is linked to population pressures; in many D&D worlds the world is in full blown "humanity in decline" mode, with huge stretches of land unowned and abandoned castles dotting the landscape. Land is going to be cheap.
Really depends on the setting and the location. I can honestly say I seldom if ever play in "humanity in decline" settings (nor do I ever get the feel of "humanity in decline" from any of the major settings put out by WOTC), there may be plenty of unoccupied land dotting the countryside, but anything close to a road or a city is nearly always under the ownership of some lord. Land within the walls of a city was valuable, short ofthe Dark Ages/Plague, I can not think of a single time period/location where acquiring land within the walls of a city was easy or cheap. Even if you predate the major migrations from rural to urban settings, land ownership was still well ooutside the grasp of the average person.


2. Building a modern building is difficult; building one the Sumer/Egypt way by making tiny rooms filled with massive pillars is not. Hypostyle halls would require a check, but nothing like keeping a modern building (which is almost all space) up.
Are you making the argument that D&D buildings resemble Egypt/Sumer buildings more than modern day buildings.... How are either proper comparisons??? D&D is medieval in architecture, and there are plenty of historical references to support the need for architects and engineers in the construction of large manors. A small one room house, fine, I'll give it to the PCs... but what PCs settle for a one room? Anything large enough to satisfy a group of PCs is outside the basic intelligence of an adventurer. I've personally built extensions onto a house, built rooms and closets, but I would struggle to grasp how to build a house from scratch.... it shouldn't be much different for the PCs.

[Toofey]

You could always just find some bad guys with one you like and umm.... put a stop to their wickedness, re appropriating their base afterwards.

Of course, you'll have to be careful not to destroy the structure, and if it's worth having it will make ki- I mean, intervention in this evil situation, more difficult.

Otherwise, yeah you're looking at construction, one way or the other.


Also nothing doesn't involve DM intervention/involvement, Think of your DM as the console the game is playing on. If you concern is the DM not allowing it the best approach is to go to the DM directly so it doesn't seem like you're trying to spring it on them if it's DM time then go to the DM and work out the best way, for him, for this to happen, and I'll lay odds working within that will get you more leeway with your plans.

[Hirax]

For all the people recommending using spells to just build a base.... do you not play with DMs that require your character to have the appropriate skills (knowledge engineering/architecture/etc)? I've never played with a DM, nor would I allow my players, the ability to simply build a building with spells without making multiple fairly difficult skill checks to make sure it doesn't fall down.

We're talking about a magic user. Pumping knowledge and craft checks into the 30s is trivial for the purposes of this thread.

edit: and I mean without ranks, too. Unless you want to do things like put in plumbing, I think 20 is the highest you need. Taking 10 on the check gets you halfway there already, and both skills are keyed from int.

[Canarr]

I'd say land should be plentiful in any "typical" D&D setting; of course, it may not be the kind of land the PCs actually want.

Any real estate within or close to a city, major road, river, or any other source of wealth will have long since been occupied by someone with enough power to hold it. Anything that is valuable, you will have to pay for.

If you're looking to do the old-time D&D "clear an area, build a stronghold, attract settlers" shtick, you'll probably get the land for free. If your party does a service for some lord, he might be happy to pay you with land instead of coin - because in the former case, he'll have someone to tax afterwards.