a cheaper way to make something of mithral

[big teej]

greetings,

I recently made a 4th level duskblade and gave him "great armor" (oriental adventures)

now, as I was going back to write a backstory, it occured to me that some form of temporary insanity had overcome me during creation.

as my 4th level duskblade cannot cast in heavy armor.

obviously, the solution is too make the armor out of mithral, making it count as medium and thus working out just fine.

but to make great armour out of mithral would cost 10,000 gold pieces.

and I'm lazy, so I am in need of help of getting cheaper mithral!

thanks in advance.

[Greenish]

as my 4th level duskblade cannot cast in heavy armor.There's a feat for that (and since duskblades never gain casting in heavy armour, it won't get outdated either): Battle Caster from C. Arcane.


Of course, if you had chain shirt + dastana + Chahar-aina, you'd have almost the same AC (6 vs. 7 from Great Armour), much cheaper, much lighter, nearly no ACP and no penalty on speed.

[big teej]

There's a feat for that (and since duskblades never gain casting in heavy armour, it won't get outdated either): Battle Caster from C. Arcane.


Of course, if you had chain shirt + dastana + Chahar-aina, you'd have almost the same AC (6 vs. 7 from Great Armour), much cheaper, much lighter, nearly no ACP and no penalty on speed.

that is an excellent suggestion.

with two problems, one of which is easily surmounted by me getting off my creative high horse.

problem 1.
standing rule for my group (and I impose it on myself in all groups)
no material I do not have personal access too in hardcopy (don't have complete arcane yet)

problem 2.
I'm also after the image Great Armor gives.

problem 2 is, as I said, easily surmounted by me getting off my creative high horse.

which is something I'm trying not to do, but certainly will if no other solutions can be found.

[Greenish]

problem 2.
I'm also after the image Great Armor gives.Reverse-Glamered armour? :smalltongue:

Yeah, I can't recall any cheaper option for Mithral, except for Darkwood, and well, I'm not sure wooden armour matches your artistic vision.

[Firechanter]

Buy two Mithral Chain Shirts --> 2200GP or something.
Melt them down.
Voilà, you now have 25 pounds of Mithral, which is enough to make a Full Plate.
:smalltongue:

(just a little reminder how nonsensical / purely stat-oriented / implausible the special materials rules are.)

[mootoall]

Yeah, it always irked me how Adamantine daggers cost practically the same as Adamantine spiked chains.

[Anxe]

I'm not sure how Duskblades work, but you could also take Still Spell and just ignore every arcane spell failure check, but lose a spell level.

[Sinfonian]

Buy two Mithral Chain Shirts --> 2200GP or something.
Melt them down.
Voilà, you now have 25 pounds of Mithral, which is enough to make a Full Plate.
:smalltongue:

(just a little reminder how nonsensical / purely stat-oriented / implausible the special materials rules are.)

Don't forget that the cost for items made of special materials generally makes them masterwork. To me that implies that the cost includes the skill of the craftsman that it takes to work such materials properly. It's not RAW, but probably a more reasonable interpretation.

[fryplink]

Scroll of Fabricate used on raw mithril or other 25 lbs of mithril? Would that work?

[Firechanter]

Scroll of Fabricate used on raw mithril or other 25 lbs of mithril? Would that work?

If you can make the Craft check, then yes, it should work. I.e. you must be able to make a craft check for MW armour worth so and so much.

[holywhippet]

Scroll of Fabricate used on raw mithril or other 25 lbs of mithril? Would that work?

You'd have to make the craft check, but you'd also need to pass a use magical device check since fabricate isn't on the duskblade spell list.

[Doug Lampert]

If you can make the Craft check, then yes, it should work. I.e. you must be able to make a craft check for MW armour worth so and so much.

Fortunately the DC of the craft check is independent of the item cost. Masterwork is DC 20.

Even more fortunately craft can be used untrained and the price to hire someone to cast a spell is MUCH cheaper than the cost of the item and the caster has no chance of failing to use the scroll based on it's level.

It's sorcerer/wizard 5, a level 12 NPC wizard will have a +6 Int mod (15 starting ability, +3 from levels, +4 from a spell or item). Thus he makes the roll on a 14+, and that's without anyone doing assist another or anything or any ranks or an item of skill bonus.

On average he can hit the DC once in the first three tries and charges 600 GP per try. Given the chance of failure with a scroll this is cheaper on average than scrolls would be, and you don't need a craft skill.

Unfortunately you do need 25 lb of Mithral (the armor is half wieght), and that costs 500 GP/lb, so 12,500 GP for the Mithral. Drat, that's more than the cost of the armor!

But wait! As pointed out a Mithral shirt costs only 1,100 GP and has half that much Mithral!

Buy the Mithral shirt for 1,100 GP, sell the Mithral for 6,250 GP (whoops, it's not coin or gems, so you get half price), so sell the Mithral for 3,125 GP, that's 2,025 GP in profit, repeat repeatedly, buy a candle of invocation and....

Never try to make sense of D&D economics. Similarly, don't try to use the spell system the way a rational person would, that way lies the Tippyverse.

[Jack_Simth]

It's sorcerer/wizard 5, a level 12 NPC wizard will have a +6 Int mod (15 starting ability, +3 from levels, +4 from a spell or item). Thus he makes the roll on a 14+, and that's without anyone doing assist another or anything or any ranks or an item of skill bonus.

And if he casts Greater Heroism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroismGreater.htm) on himself prior, he can take ten.

[holywhippet]

Unfortunately you do need 25 lb of Mithral (the armor is half wieght), and that costs 500 GP/lb, so 12,500 GP for the Mithral. Drat, that's more than the cost of the armor!

What book covers the cost of mithral per pound?

[Anxe]

This is going to sound insulting... It's in the DMG under Special Materials where it talks about Mithral.

[holywhippet]

This is going to sound insulting... It's in the DMG under Special Materials where it talks about Mithral.

I see it now - but that isn't the cost of raw mithral per lb. It's the cost increment of items made of mithral. So a harp or a statue made of mithral would cost an extra 500 gold per lb. But raw mithral would cost less than that.

[Jack_Simth]

Unfortunately you do need 25 lb of Mithral (the armor is half wieght), and that costs 500 GP/lb, so 12,500 GP for the Mithral. Drat, that's more than the cost of the armor!

But wait! As pointed out a Mithral shirt costs only 1,100 GP and has half that much Mithral!

Buy the Mithral shirt for 1,100 GP, sell the Mithral for 6,250 GP (whoops, it's not coin or gems, so you get half price), so sell the Mithral for 3,125 GP, that's 2,025 GP in profit, repeat repeatedly, buy a candle of invocation and....Presumably, when you're working with Mithral, when you're done, most of the armor isn't actually the metal itself... but agreed, D&D economics don't make sense. Armors are priced based on game-mechanical benefit (e.g., Banded Mail and Full Plate have a 15 pound difference in weight normally, but they cost the same to make out of Mithral), other items are based on weight. The two don't line up, but there's a reason for it... just a gamist one, rather than a simulationist one.

[holywhippet]

Presumably, when you're working with Mithral, when you're done, most of the armor isn't actually the metal itself...

That can't really be correct - since making it out of mithral = weight reduction then you can't really use an alloy or it wouldn't be lighter.

[ericgrau]

At low levels generally the cheapest way to make heavy armor out of mithril... is to get medium armor instead and improve its AC with magic. Ya, wait until higher levels for mithril.

[holywhippet]

At low levels generally the cheapest way to make heavy armor out of mithril... is to get medium armor instead and improve its AC with magic. Ya, wait until higher levels for mithril.

I don't see how that is the case. Getting medium armour made out of mithral (note that how is the SRD spells it - probably to avoid a lawsuit from the Tolkein estate) costs an extra 4000 gold. Heavy armour made of mithral costs 9000 gold extra. Enchanting armour for extra AC costs (at cheapest) bonus ^ 2 * 2000. For a +1 bonus it's 2000 gold, for a +2 bonus it's 8000 gold. But that +2 enchantment makes it cost more than the heavy armour would (ie. 12000 in total) and doesn't give you as high an AC bonus as heavy mithral armour could get you.

[Allanimal]

I don't see how that is the case. Getting medium armour made out of mithral (note that how is the SRD spells it - probably to avoid a lawsuit from the Tolkein estate) costs an extra 4000 gold. Heavy armour made of mithral costs 9000 gold extra. Enchanting armour for extra AC costs (at cheapest) bonus ^ 2 * 2000. For a +1 bonus it's 2000 gold, for a +2 bonus it's 8000 gold. But that +2 enchantment makes it cost more than the heavy armour would (ie. 12000 in total) and doesn't give you as high an AC bonus as heavy mithral armour could get you.

Enchanting armor is only bonus^2 * 1000

[CigarPete]

You realize that RAW, you can't just handwave the craft roll. Failing a craft roll by 5 or more ruins half the raw materials. That's a lot of Mithril to have to buy again.

[Greenish]

I'm not sure how Duskblades work, but you could also take Still Spell and just ignore every arcane spell failure check, but lose a spell level.Probably won't work, since channeling requires the spell to have standard action casting time, and metamagic on spontaneous spells increases the casting time.

Of course, you could use Still Spell and opt out of Duskblade's signature ability…

Getting medium armour made out of mithral (note that how is the SRD spells it - probably to avoid a lawsuit from the Tolkein estate) costs an extra 4000 gold. Heavy armour made of mithral costs 9000 gold extra.I think he means that instead of mithral heavy armour, you buy normal medium one. In either case, you'll end up with a medium armour, and thus can cast in it.

[Doug Lampert]

And if he casts Greater Heroism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroismGreater.htm) on himself prior, he can take ten.

Good. So you pay him for the two spells. 12*(5+6)*10=1320 GP for the spell costs. He might even give you a discount since most of that money is for a self buff which lasts long enough for him to do something else with it.


You realize that RAW, you can't just handwave the craft roll. Failing a craft roll by 5 or more ruins half the raw materials. That's a lot of Mithril to have to buy again.

But you quite clearly can take ten on it, and thanks to Jack Smith we now know that succeeds even for a wizard with no metal working skills at all.

The lowest possible scroll costs 1125 gold, and has possible failures from both the craft roll (unless you've built your character to craft) and the UMD roll or roll to use an overleved scroll.

DougL

[Lateral]

Yeah, it always irked me how Adamantine daggers cost practically the same as Adamantine spiked chains.
That's nothing. A Fine Adamantine dagger costs nearly the same as a Colossal one. :smallsigh:

[big teej]

That's nothing. A Fine Adamantine dagger costs nearly the same as a Colossal one. :smallsigh:

as someone who's done some metalworking by hand (jewelery making)

I can assure you, working on something very small is just as hard (in different ways sometimes) as working on something very large.

[Veyr]

But that doesn't explain the obvious issues with the much greater quantities of raw material, which in this case is a valuable metal and therefore far from negligible.

[big teej]

But that doesn't explain the obvious issues with the much greater quantities of raw material, which in this case is a valuable metal and therefore far from negligible.

lets try another tack.

we'll say the difficulty of working with such a small amount of material balances out the COST of material when working with a large object :smallcool:

that way, the insanity of the costs is explained!

small item = hard work, little material
large item = easy, lots of material

[Lateral]

That's completely ridiculous. First of all, the cost of working with the material is the masterwork cost, which is FAR less than the cost of the raw materials- there's just no possible way they cancel out. Plus, if you're building a sword the size of a jeep, you'd need more money for the working of it- it takes longer to forge, more people and more effort to craft, and just as much craftmanship as a small one, albeit on a larger scale.

[Veyr]

The masterwork cost is not the only cost associated with craftsmanship, just the incremental cost of improving the craftsmanship from 'ordinary' to 'masterwork'. Especially in something like Mithral, where it's automatically considered 'masterwork'; the cost of it becoming so isn't explicitly the same as it is for other materials, just included somewhere in the total cost addition of the Mithral material.

[Lateral]

Well, yeah, but what does that have to do with my point? :smallannoyed:

[Veyr]

Mostly that using the Masterwork cost as the basis for trying to determine the relative costs of materials vs. workmanship doesn't quite work out.

Your point about how scaling it up will increase the difficulty of workmanship as well as material costs is still valid.

[big teej]

as someone who's done some metalworking by hand (jewelery making)

I can assure you, working on something very small is just as hard (in different ways sometimes) as working on something very large.


lets try another tack.
we'll say the difficulty of working with such a small amount of material balances out the COST of material when working with a large object :smallcool:

that way, the insanity of the costs is explained!

small item = hard work, little material
large item = easy, lots of material



That's completely ridiculous. First of all, the cost of working with the material is the masterwork cost, which is FAR less than the cost of the raw materials- there's just no possible way they cancel out. Plus, if you're building a sword the size of a jeep, you'd need more money for the working of it- it takes longer to forge, more people and more effort to craft, and just as much craftmanship as a small one, albeit on a larger scale.


of course it's completely ridiculous.

I was just offering an alternative explanation we could use.
:smalltongue:

[Darrin]

There are several materials besides mithral that reduce the weight category of armor:

Blue Ice (Frostburn p. 80)
Price: +750/3000/7000 GP
Much like darkleaf, this material drops the weight category, increases Max Dex by 1, and reduces ACP by 2 (add masterwork to reduce ACP by 3). However, if the wearer doesn't have some kind of cold resistance/immunity, he takes a -1 penalty on Ref saves and Init checks (add a dragoncraft buckler/shield for cold resistance 5). Sentira is slightly better (increases Max Dex by 2), but Darkleaf is cheaper for the same stats and no Ref/Init penalty.

Darkleaf (A&EG p. 19, Eberron Campaign Setting p. 120)
Price: +750/2250/3000 GP
Properties are very similar to mithral, but much more druid-friendly. Reduces the weight category, increases Max Dex by 1, and reduces ACP by 2. You can also combine this with masterwork quality to reduce ACP by 1. Sentira has slightly better stats (increases Max Dex by 2), but darkleaf definitely has more "I am made out of trees!" flavor (and isn't tied to a specific campaign world).

Dragoncraft (Draconomicon p. 117)
Price: +3000/6000/11000 GP
Adding the dragoncraft quality to dragonhide armor drops the weight category, reduces ACP by 2, and adds a nonmagical energy resistance 5, energy type based on the dragon's color (if you're looking for sonic or force resistance, it doesn't specifically mention it but doesn't forbid it). Darkleaf and sentira are cheaper and will get you better Max Dex/ACP, but... hmmm, a buckler or shield with force resistance 5, that's pretty tempting (never worry about magic missile again). Like dragonhide, it's only available on certain armors, but they are *not* the same options as dragonhide: breastplate and banded are not available, but scale mail is. Huh, I can't tell if that's a mistake by the designer or intentional. Hide, half-plate, and full plate are the other three armors available. The price for a shield isn't mentioned, either. I assume it's the same as light armor (+3000 GP). This won't work for two reasons: more expensive than mithral, and Great Armor is not listed as one of the available options.

Glassteel (Champions of Valor p. 65)
Price: +2000/6000/12000 GP
The exact properties of this stuff bounces around from sourcebook to sourcebook, but the latest version was in Champions of Valor. Same general properties as mithral, except it has hardness and HP similar to adamantine. Since it's also ludicrously expensive, not really an option here.

Sentira (Secrets of Sarlona p. 135)
Price: +1000/4000/9000 GP
Properties and price are identical to mithral. I'm... considerably confused about whether this material is metallic or not. If it's "more like horn or shell" as the fluff suggests, then this may be the ubermaterial for druids.


The Halfweight property (FR Underdark p. 70) can be added to any armor/material to drop the weight category to light, but as a +3 enhancement bonus, will set you back at least 16000 GP, and thus is definitely not cheaper than mithral.

There's also a Fighter ACF in Dragon #355, trade your 1st level fighter bonus feat for the ability to treat any armor as one weight category lighter.


I think your best option is Masterwork Darkleaf Great Armor: 4150 GP. 41.5% the price of mithral.