Deep Crystal Longbow... umm... how?

[Yorae]

So, I was looking for a potential ranged weapon for a psionic character and a longbow made of deep crystal sounded pretty neat....

But then, I thought... how exactly does that work?
The SRD even lists priced for mundane and deep crystal bows, but how the heck would a bow made of crystal function at all, since the crystal would be unable to bend?

[Ashram]

...A wizard did it.

[Gurgeh]

Perhaps it's mechanical? Most modern archery equipment uses joints and pulleys rather than actual bending of the shaft, so you could probably apply the same principles in D&D.

[Amphetryon]

...A wizardAn erudite did it.
FTFY. :smallwink:

[Talya]

So, I was looking for a potential ranged weapon for a psionic character and a longbow made of deep crystal sounded pretty neat....

But that, I thought... how exactly does that work?
The SRD even lists priced for mundane and deep crystal bows, but how the heck would a bow made of crystal function at all, since the crystal would be unable to bend?

Lots of crystals can bend. Some are even liquids at room temperature!

Anyway, this thread kills catgirls. This is not a condemnation, not at all. I believe the vermin known as catgirls must be cleansed from the planet. As such, I request that one attempt to determine if any real life crystals have the necessary strength-over-rigidity to suffice as a bow.

[Lateral]

It's psionic super-crystal. The real question is "how does a mundane crystal longbow work?"

[Techsmart]

...A wizard did it.

+1
Kneejerk reaction:
DND 101: please don't bring real life physics into the equation. Too many catgirls will die because of it.

more... rational reaction:
Technically, everything solid can bend, even crystals. The ammount that they can bend can be incredibly small (see glass, but a 100 foot rod can bend without breaking), but they still can. Deepwood crystals bend just enough to function. They are incredibly weird, since real crystals can't bend nearly that much, but in some sense are feasible. And now, please refer to kneejerk reaction.

[Cog]

Mundane crystal can be used in place of metal in weapons or armor...
Granted, there are longbows made of of metal currently, but depending on how anachronistic you play your D&D, crystal longbows might not be available without any metal to replace.

[Luckmann]

Are there even metal bows? The idea of a metal bow in a "medieval" setting upsets my sensibilities for some reason.

But as Talya said, crystals are perfectly capable of bending, depending on the crystalline structure. Anyone who's ever chewed on ice knows that.

[Bhaakon]

Lots of crystals can bend. Some are even liquids at room temperature!

Anyway, this thread kills catgirls. This is not a condemnation, not at all. I believe the vermin known as catgirls must be cleansed from the planet. As such, I request that one attempt to determine if any real life crystals have the necessary strength-over-rigidity to suffice as a bow.

All metals have a crystalline structure, if you want to get all pedantic about it. Technically, every steel sword is also a crystal sword.


Are there even metal bows? The idea of a metal bow in a "medieval" setting upsets my sensibilities for some reason.

There were steel crossbows. I don't think there was any technological prohibition against a metal bow, just that they would be much more expensive than wood and no more effective (wooden longbows and composite bows were already at the limit a human could draw without mechanical assistance).

[TroubleBrewing]

Here's how:

It's made of a type of crystal that bends.

Boom.

Hear that? That's the sound of your brain exploding.

[Bhaakon]

Here's how:

It's made of a type of crystal that bends.

Boom.

Hear that? That's the sound of your brain exploding.

Asbestos is a crystal that bends. I don't think it's strong enough to make a bow, though.

[Luckmann]

What about a Buckminster Sword?
Can I make one of those?

:smalltongue:

[Yuki Akuma]

Deep crystal is one of the metal-replacing special materials. There isn't a psionic wood-replacing material.

You're out of luck. Soulbow time?

[TroubleBrewing]

I don't think it's strong enough to make a bow, though.

Magic/a wizard did it.

[Lateral]

Asbestos is a crystal that bends. I don't think it's strong enough to make a bow, though.

I dunno, a magic bow with magic asbestos arrows sounds pretty sweet. Give everything you shoot lung cancer. :smallwink:

[Luckmann]

I dunno, a magic bow with magic asbestos arrows sounds pretty sweet. Give everything you shoot lung cancer. :smallwink:
*takes notes for alchemist character*

What? :smallbiggrin:

[NNescio]

Time to kill some catgirls. (http://prb.aps.org/abstract/PRB/v75/i5/e054109)

Also, this. * (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiberglass)

*Okay, strictly speaking, it's no longer crystalline, but the raw materials were technically crystals.

[Jack_Simth]

What about a Buckminster Sword?
Can I make one of those?
Well, Buckminsterfullerne (C-60) doesn't do structures well (it's a VERY self-contained almost-sphere).

Buckytubes, on the other hand, could very well replace other fiber material in something like a fiberglass bow.

[Big Fau]

So, I was looking for a potential ranged weapon for a psionic character and a longbow made of deep crystal sounded pretty neat....

But that, I thought... how exactly does that work?
The SRD even lists priced for mundane and deep crystal bows, but how the heck would a bow made of crystal function at all, since the crystal would be unable to bend?


The fact that it doesn't bend easily is actually a boon to an archer. The draw string needs to be more flexible than the bow itself. Provided you have the strength to actually draw an arrow on the damn thing, the amount of firepower a crystalline bow would have would be a very good thing for an archer.


Of course, this is assuming Deep Crystal isn't prone to snapping like some cheap toothpick when used as a bow. If not, then it is possible to bend it. But it would be more believable to have Deep Crystal arrows.

[Tiki Snakes]

That's even assuming the bow needs to bend to function, or even has a string. Maybe it is a bow-shaped chunk of crystal that, due to the perculiar properties of the crystal and the precise engineering of the bow, can hold a single light cylindrical item in place (like, say, an arrow?)

If you attempt to manipulate the arrow after you have 'knocked' it' then the pull of the bow resists. If you pull to the maximum and release, it is flung free just as if propelled by a bowstring, only probably with a light purple afterglow following it, no doubt.

Or whatever.

[NNescio]

That's even assuming the bow needs to bend to function, or even has a string. Maybe it is a bow-shaped chunk of crystal that, due to the perculiar properties of the crystal and the precise engineering of the bow, can hold a single light cylindrical item in place (like, say, an arrow?)

If you attempt to manipulate the arrow after you have 'knocked' it' then the pull of the bow resists. If you pull to the maximum and release, it is flung free just as if propelled by a bowstring, only probably with a light purple afterglow following it, no doubt.

Or whatever.

Piezoelectricity? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz#Piezoelectricity)

[ExemplarofAvg]

Very Carefully.

[holywhippet]

Why would you need the crystal to bend? The bow itself could be made out of the crystal while the bowstring could be the same stuff they use in regular bows. Since bowstring is the only thing that actually needs to bend it would be fine.

Otherwise, you could powderise the crystals and ingrain them into the bowstring.

[Amphetryon]

Why would you need the crystal to bend? The bow itself could be made out of the crystal while the bowstring could be the same stuff they use in regular bows. Since bowstring is the only thing that actually needs to bend it would be fine.

Otherwise, you could powderise the crystals and ingrain them into the bowstring.

That's not actually how bows - particularly bows without more 'advanced' pulley systems to offset the draw - work.

[NNescio]

Why would you need the crystal to bend? The bow itself could be made out of the crystal while the bowstring could be the same stuff they use in regular bows. Since bowstring is the only thing that actually needs to bend it would be fine.

Otherwise, you could powderise the crystals and ingrain them into the bowstring.

Have you ever shot a bow before? (http://www.mrfizzix.com/archery/bow.html)

Most conventional bows (including modern-day compound bows) store their energy in the limbs of the bow itself, not the string.

Of course, Tiki's suggestion would bypass that requirement.

[holywhippet]

Have you ever shot a bow before? (http://www.mrfizzix.com/archery/bow.html)


Yep. It was about (hmm, doing some calculations here) 17 years ago. I was firing at a target about 20 meters away from what I recall.

[Fiery Diamond]

Far more unforgivable than this, which can be explained in many ways (my favorite is Tiki's) is the fact that the bows in the Fire Emblem game series are ALL categorized by metal type, just like the rest of the weapons, when they clearly are not mechanical. I don't think that Iron, Steel, and Silver bows make a lot of sense. Frankly, the whole idea of silver weapons being more damaging than steel weapons is a bit silly, but that's another story altogether.

Most of the things in D&D can at least be handwaved with "a wizard/psionicist did it" if nothing else. Other games have far less excuse for the wanton slaughter of catgirls they provoke should any person with a brain encounter them.

[NNescio]

Far more unforgivable than this, which can be explained in many ways (my favorite is Tiki's) is the fact that the bows in the Fire Emblem game series are ALL categorized by metal type, just like the rest of the weapons, when they clearly are not mechanical. I don't think that Iron, Steel, and Silver bows make a lot of sense. Frankly, the whole idea of silver weapons being more damaging than steel weapons is a bit silly, but that's another story altogether.

Most of the things in D&D can at least be handwaved with "a wizard/psionicist did it" if nothing else. Other games have far less excuse for the wanton slaughter of catgirls they provoke should any person with a brain encounter them.

Morrowind: Glass bows, Glass armour, and Glass maces. In-game lore (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Light_Armor_Repair) also describe Glass as being prone to shattering.

That said, metal bows are quite possible, even if they are not mechanical. Steel bows were actually made during medieval periods, 'though they had to be mounted as crossbows because nobody could actually draw them without mechanical assistance. Fantasy characters, however, tend to be far.. stronger than the average human, so it isn't inconceivable that they could use a bow made out of steel.

[Veyr]

Morrowind: Glass bows, Glass armour, and Glass maces. In-game lore (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Light_Armor_Repair) also describe Glass as being prone to shattering.
The in-game lore on Vvardenfell's glass goes back and forth a fair bit, though. The descriptions are never consistent: some call it like glass, others state that it's more metallic; it's not really clear.

[Yorae]

The in-game lore on Vvardenfell's glass goes back and forth a fair bit, though. The descriptions are never consistent: some call it like glass, others state that it's more metallic; it's not really clear.

Nonsense, it's perfectly clear!
You can see right through it!

...

Ba-zing.

[Incanur]

Steel bows (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18939) existed in India and worked just fine, though they were generally less efficient than composite bows.

[Gullintanni]

Morrowind's glass items never really bothered me. Today, we can make glass that stops high caliber bullets with varying degrees of reliability...and we don't have access to magic. Why not Vvardenfell?

[hamishspence]

In fantasy, the Numenoreans have steel bows, in Unfinished Tales (a Lord of the Rings/Silmarillion extras book.)

[Veyr]

Morrowind's glass items never really bothered me. Today, we can make glass that stops high caliber bullets with varying degrees of reliability...and we don't have access to magic. Why not Vvardenfell?
Oh, it's not that, it's just that different in-game descriptions of the glass is describing very different materials.

[Leon]

You have a Crystal bow, you believe it works like a normal bow, thus it does until you stop believing that it does.

[ScionoftheVoid]

You have a Crystal bow, you believe it works like a normal bow, thus it does until you stop believing that it does.

Well, Deep Crystal is extra responsive to Psionics.

[holywhippet]

Morrowind's glass items never really bothered me. Today, we can make glass that stops high caliber bullets with varying degrees of reliability...and we don't have access to magic. Why not Vvardenfell?

Bulletproof glass isn't pure glass. It's a mixture of polycarbonate, thermoplastic and laminated glass. It's also a lot thicker than the kind of glass you get in a regular window.

I don't think Morrowind's glass was regular glass either since normal glass is made by melting sand. In Morrowind the raw materials seemed more like a crystal than sand.

[NNescio]

Bulletproof glass isn't pure glass. It's a mixture of polycarbonate, thermoplastic and laminated glass. It's also a lot thicker than the kind of glass you get in a regular window.

I don't think Morrowind's glass was regular glass either since normal glass is made by melting sand. In Morrowind the raw materials seemed more like a crystal than sand.

It's... a composite material consisting of rare metals and volcanic glass, 'though descriptions of how metallic or glassy it is vary significantly depending on which in-game lore is being referred to, with some of them explicitly mentioning that it's susceptible to shattering.

[Knaight]

Ignoring the conversation so far, and coming back to the initial question, one could simply use the deep crystal for arrow heads. Its not as if obsidian hasn't been used for it in the past, and if that works glass in general certainly will, and the portrayal of deep crystal has pretty consistently been one of something glass like, never mind the fact that glass isn't actually a crystal.

[holywhippet]

Technically diamonds are susceptible to shattering when hit with enough force (they are very hard, but that refers to scratching, not impact resistance).

[OracleofWuffing]

It's actually made of cement, not deep crystal. The merchant says it's made out of Deep Crystal so he can make a better profit, the identifying Wizard says it's Deep Crystal because he likes stringing you along for the prank. The placebo affect kicks in, makes you feel more confident about it and yourself, so you can channel through it.

[Big Fau]

It's actually made of cement, not deep crystal. The merchant says it's made out of Deep Crystal so he can make a better profit, the identifying Wizard says it's Deep Crystal because he likes stringing you along for the prank. The placebo affect kicks in, makes you feel more confident about it and yourself, so you can channel through it.

So if I paint my bow red, does it gain the Speed quality?

[Bhaakon]

So if I paint my bow red, does it gain the Speed quality?

That depends on how many ranks you've put into bluff.

[NNescio]

So if I paint my bow red, does it gain the Speed quality?

Use blue feathers on your arrows, and you'll get the Keen enhancement thrown in as well.


That depends on how many ranks you've put into bluff.
Orcs autopass this check. :smallwink:

[Qwertystop]

Well, Buckminsterfullerne (C-60) doesn't do structures well (it's a VERY self-contained almost-sphere).

Buckytubes, on the other hand, could very well replace other fiber material in something like a fiberglass bow.
A buckminster-full(erene)blade!

(Like a fullblade, with the critical of a Mercurial Greatsword, but moreso)

[OracleofWuffing]

So if I paint my bow red, does it gain the Speed quality?
No, faster things are look Blue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshift). :smalltongue:

[Big Fau]

No, faster things are look Blue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshift). :smalltongue:

So, painting it red makes it three times faster, but it will look blue when I use it.


No one will see it coming once it's purple.

[Eldan]

It's... a composite material consisting of rare metals and volcanic glass, 'though descriptions of how metallic or glassy it is vary significantly depending on which in-game lore is being referred to, with some of them explicitly mentioning that it's susceptible to shattering.

My explanation was that it actually refers to an entire class of materials made by the Red mountain, some almost metal-like, some more like normal glass and prone to shattering. But that's really more of a post-hoc explanation attempt.

[Luckmann]

No, faster things are look Blue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshift). :smalltongue:No no no.

Blue gives a Luck bonus. :smallbiggrin:

[Yuki Akuma]

Black gives the Vicious property.

[Veyr]

What are you all referencing with these colors?

[Solaris]

What are you all referencing with these colors?

Warhammer 40k. Specifically, Orks.

[Yuki Akuma]

Warhammer 40,000's Orks.

They have a psychic field (called a 'WAAAAAAGGH') that, among other things, causes things they believe in to be explicitly true.

Orks believe that certain colours represent certain attributes. Red ones go faster. Blue ones are lucky. Black ones are well 'ard. And so on.

Most of their technology more complicated than an internal combustion engine or a standard shoota (rifle, more or less) is actually functionally useless and only works because the Orks expect it to. Their space ships, for instance, are simply hollowed out asteroids with rockets strapped to them. No one told them they needed some way to keep the air in, so they don't.

[Veyr]

Haha, that's wonderful.

[hamishspence]

Ork spaceships aren't all hollowed out asteroids (Roks) or space hulks.

They do salvage material in order to build their own ships:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Fleet

[Sir Homeslice]

Orks believe that certain colours represent certain attributes. Red ones go faster. Blue ones are lucky. Black ones are well 'ard. And so on.

Purple is so ded sneaky it doesn't get mentioned.

[Yuki Akuma]

(I forgot the sneaky colour. >.>)


Ork spaceships aren't all hollowed out asteroids (Roks) or space hulks.

They do salvage material in order to build their own ships:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Fleet

Well, yes. But the fact remains that they have ships that are hollowed out asteroids which are full of holes, but because Orks believe that space ships keep the air in, they still have a breathable atmosphere.

As long as the majority of the crew are Orks. Otherwise...

[Benly]

"Red goes three times faster" is also a mecha fandom in-joke - in original Gundam, Char's custom mobile suits are stated to be three times faster than the normal models even though the only visible difference is that his are painted red.

Your bow could be studded with crystals, connected with fine strands of silver wire to conduct the psionic energy from one to the next.

[Big Fau]

Warhammer 40,000's Orks.

They have a psychic field (called a 'WAAAAAAGGH') that, among other things, causes things they believe in to be explicitly true.

Orks believe that certain colours represent certain attributes. Red ones go faster. Blue ones are lucky. Black ones are well 'ard. And so on.

Most of their technology more complicated than an internal combustion engine or a standard shoota (rifle, more or less) is actually functionally useless and only works because the Orks expect it to. Their space ships, for instance, are simply hollowed out asteroids with rockets strapped to them. No one told them they needed some way to keep the air in, so they don't.

The best part is the ork who decided to paint his army purple. It's a shame there were no witnesses.

[McSmack]

Getting back to the topic at hand. There's no reason bits of the bow couldn't be composed of crystal. Historically composite bows used things like wood, horn, metal and leather. I don't see any reason crystal couldn't be in there.

Or go with the 'fiberglass' option. That would legitimately work.

For the record, in just about every case I can think of bowstrings don't bend. Drawing a bow forces the two arms closer together. This is where the energy is stored.

There's no reason that you couldn't have just the area around the grip composed of crystal with the upper and lower limbs made of wood, therefore alleviating the need for your crystal to bend. There's a notch just above the grip that the arrow sits in. That could be the part that imparts the psychic energy or whatnot, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the string or the limbs.

[Anxe]

You could just make your arrows out of crystal and have the bow be made out of more mundane materials.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, but that's stupidly expensive. In general, enhancing ammunition is a waste of money.

[Benly]

For the record, in just about every case I can think of bowstrings don't bend. Drawing a bow forces the two arms closer together. This is where the energy is stored.

So, uh... if the two ends are getting closer together, and the bowstring is remaining the same length, and it's not bending, what exactly is going on?

Bowstrings bend, man. It's not where the main energy is stored, but if you GIS anything related to archery you're going to see a lot of bent strings. Or if you spend a moment thinking about the physics of the situation.

[Knaight]

Bowstrings bend, man. It's not where the main energy is stored, but if you GIS anything related to archery you're going to see a lot of bent strings. Or if you spend a moment thinking about the physics of the situation.

I'm thinking that "bend" was used when "stretch" was meant. The bow strings stretching stores a minute amount of power compared to the bow bending, and if it were the other way around one would basically have a very fancy sling shot.

[hamishspence]

Isn't "bending" more for objects that, when not under stress, remain stiff and straight?

Which bowstrings don't do.

Leaving a bow strung too long, damages the string- that's why archers only strung the bow just before a battle.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[Yuki Akuma]

If something that is straight (such as a taut bowstring) is made to be not-straight (such as when a bowstring is pulled back), it is 'bent'. (In fact even something that is curved (like the arms of a bow) is made more or less curved, it is also 'bent'.)

English!

[Benly]

I'm thinking that "bend" was used when "stretch" was meant. The bow strings stretching stores a minute amount of power compared to the bow bending, and if it were the other way around one would basically have a very fancy sling shot.

Ah, okay. "Bowstrings don't stretch" makes a lot more sense than "bowstrings don't bend".

It just seemed like such a baffling claim to make.

[hamishspence]

Bending:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bending

[Yuki Akuma]

I see your encyclopedia article and raise you a dictionary definition!

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bend

[hamishspence]

From that article, "Bend" includes putting things into a state of tension- but the bowstring is in a state of tension in its normal state- by "bending the bow" one is in fact relieving (or at least significantly reducing) the tension in the string.

That said, it also includes angular shapes as well as curved shapes.

EDIT: - that said- since the bowstring is being used to bend the bow- it's still in tension- just in a different shape.

[Knaight]

Ah, okay. "Bowstrings don't stretch" makes a lot more sense than "bowstrings don't bend".

It just seemed like such a baffling claim to make.

Yep. "Bowstrings don't stretch" is still technically wrong, but the amount they stretch compared to their length is a somewhat low percentage. .01% is probably a high estimate. Displacement of the end of the bow from the center in the horizontal plane is far higher than that, and the stretch of bowstrings can be dismissed as trivial.

[Tokuhara]

A crystal bow is cool and all, but if I could make a bow from a liquid in d&d I would