idea for limiting powergamers

[Stix]

the group i game with has a considerable gap in gaming experience. as a result i often end up with part of my party with well played decently optimized characters, and the rest with clunky characters they don't know how to play so well.

I hate doing this to players but i see that i'm going to have to limit my more powerful players to allow the newer people to shine once in a while.

I've read a few ideas on how to do this.
1. personally ok all character choices: sounds effective but it requires me to read up on everything just in case it'll overpower their characters beyond what i want them to have.

2. mass ban entire tiers of classes and such. effective but i don't truly understand the tier system well enough to implement this on classes and such that isn't tiered.


so after all that. how do you gents and ladies think this would work? at the beginning of the campaign tell them that the core books (PHB, DMG, MMI) are already in the pool and each player may add one supplement to the pool. all players have access to the pool but to no other supplements. this should allow the less experienced players to play to there utmost while allowing my more powerful players to put real thought into their builds while still not letting them blow everyone away.

[Adrayll]

Crazy thought, talk to your players? Explain the situation to the powergamers, maybe get them to tone down their power level, assist the new members or some combination thereof?

[Amphetryon]

the group i game with has a considerable gap in gaming experience. as a result i often end up with part of my party with well played decently optimized characters, and the rest with clunky characters they don't know how to play so well.

I hate doing this to players but i see that i'm going to have to limit my more powerful players to allow the newer people to shine once in a while.

I've read a few ideas on how to do this.
1. personally ok all character choices: sounds effective but it requires me to read up on everything just in case it'll overpower their characters beyond what i want them to have.

2. mass ban entire tiers of classes and such. effective but i don't truly understand the tier system well enough to implement this on classes and such that isn't tiered.


so after all that. how do you gents and ladies think this would work? at the beginning of the campaign tell them that the core books (PHB, DMG, MMI) are already in the pool and each player may add one supplement to the pool. all players have access to the pool but to no other supplements. this should allow the less experienced players to play to there utmost while allowing my more powerful players to put real thought into their builds while still not letting them blow everyone away.

As an alternative, talk to the more experienced folks. Tell them you're concerns, and ask them to either tone it down or focus their op-fu on helping the team, rather than becoming individual masters of destruction with their own cheering squad of newer players.

It might work.

[Divide by Zero]

Crazy thought, talk to your players? Explain the situation to the powergamers, maybe get them to tone down their power level, assist the new members or some combination thereof?

This. Anyone skilled enough to powergame is skilled enough to hold back. If they refuse, then the power gap is likely to be the least of your problems.

[ragingrage]

Additionally, if the power-gamers really want to power-game, try giving them an extra challange. Maybe get them to make good build using, say, a monk, or another low-tier class. Similar to the Iron Chef contests here in Giantitp, where your given a suboptimal class and have to make the best of it.

[Geigan]

I would suggest you talk to the powergamers in question and suggest that they tone it down or play more support heavy roles that won't outshine the rest of the group. The nerfs really shouldn't be necessary as they'll most likely hurt the newer players more than the experienced ones who know how to work around them. Core only doesn't really help much as core is the unbalanced by itself. Letting them each add a book might not work as the inexperienced players wouldn't know what to pick, and they might end up picking something that really won't help them as much as they think. You could also get the powergamers to help the new players to build their characters. Just make sure they aren't being overbearing. Have the new player pick their concept and the powergamers can make suggestions to fit the concept. Talking is often the best solution.

[Stix]

kk thanx guys. i'll have to see how getting these guys to tone it down goes. i spose i'd only really be worried about if one guy will do it. he's also the reason that the individual ok doesn't work. he revels in finding obscure material that doesn't seem broken and making it work in the most ridiculous ways. (ie: no 10th level fighter from a reasonable player should have an ac of 45)

[Hiro Protagonest]

You should give the inexperienced players ToB classes. They're really hard to screw up, even if you have lots of stone dragon stuff. Maybe ignore the "must be standing on the ground" thing for stone dragon?

[Yukitsu]

In my group, I just help build characters for players less into optimization.

[NNescio]

You should give the inexperienced players ToB classes. They're really hard to screw up, even if you have lots of stone dragon stuff. Maybe ignore the "must be standing on the ground" thing for stone dragon?

The Stone Dragon lockpick is rather decent though, and can be a pain for unprepared (and less experienced) DMs.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The Stone Dragon lockpick is rather decent though, and can be a pain for unprepared (and less experienced) DMs.

I said focused on, not cherry-picked.

[Ranos]

kk thanx guys. i'll have to see how getting these guys to tone it down goes. i spose i'd only really be worried about if one guy will do it. he's also the reason that the individual ok doesn't work. he revels in finding obscure material that doesn't seem broken and making it work in the most ridiculous ways. (ie: no 10th level fighter from a reasonable player should have an ac of 45)

A 10th level fighter with an AC of 45 seems reasonable. Pretty weak, in fact. First, because he's a fighter, and second because focusing on AC this much is pretty far from optimal.

Are you sure you're not overreacting ? From this build, the guy seems to like mechanically interesting, but not particularly powerful concepts. He doesn't strike me as a munchkin.

[Safety Sword]

A 10th level fighter with an AC of 45 seems reasonable. Pretty weak, in fact. First, because he's a fighter, and second because focusing on AC this much is pretty far from optimal.


The issue is likely to be that this guy has an AC of 45 whilst the rest of the party has AC 20 or lower.

That does cause issues for a DM with encounter design. It becomes a bit obvious when there's a wizard in every encounter who only casts ranged touch spells at the AC 45 fighter...

And by the way. AC 45 at Level 10 as a fighter is not reasonable at any table I DM or play at.

Edit: So many typos!

[navar100]

How about having the power gamers help out the others into improving their characters' effectiveness. Have everyone be equal in happiness of efffectiveness rather than everyone equally miserable in incompetence.

When I joined my group nearly 10 years ago now the players knew nothing how to optimize. The DM was very impressed how I played the cleric, and this was when 3.0 first started out before all the CoDzilla shenaningans known today even though back then cleric was strong.

The players saw how awesome my character was and wanted some of that. As the games and campaigns progressed I helped the others choose feats and use combat tactics. Now they hardly need my help at all. They have their own tastes and make choices I wouldn't, but that is as it should be since it's their character. They know what they are doing, and now have characters as awesome as mine.

[LordBlades]

The issue is likely to be that this guy has an AC of 45 whilst the rest of the party has AC 20 or lower.

That does cause issues for a DM with encounter design. It becomes a bit obvious when there's a wizard in every encounter who only casts ranged touch spells at the AC 45 fighter...

And by the way. AC 45 at Level 10 as a fighter is not reasonable at any table I DM or play at.

Edit: So many typos!

I've seen AC 45 at lvl 6 and it still seemed reasonable at that point. We do play highly OP games though.

You can get pretty good AC if you focus on it, but then you won't be able to do much else. High defenses are worthless without a reason for the enemy not to ignore you and go for the squishier targets.

+2 full plate (10 AC)+1(dex)+2 tower shield (6 AC)+2 defending weapon (+2 AC), +2 RoP, +2 Amulet of Nat Armor, Combat Expertise, Dodge=completely unoptimized core only fighter with 39 AC(40 if small). Not very hard to go to 45.

[Big Fau]

Considering the amount of effort it takes to get an AC 45 at 10th level, and that he's a Fighter, I'm willing to assume his damage output is terrible. Unless he has something like Goad, his AC isn't serving much use when everything just decides he isn't worth the effort.



Remember folks: You can't tank without a cannon in 3.5.

[Divide by Zero]

Not to mention that level 6 is starting to get to the point where saves are more important than AC.

[krai]

When there are differing levels of ability or desire to power game the best way i have found to deal with it is to have those who want to optimize more play weaker classes. If the power gamer is playing a barbarian while the new player plays a wizard the power levels of the characters will in many cases end up in the same general area.

[Safety Sword]

I've seen AC 45 at lvl 6 and it still seemed reasonable at that point. We do play highly OP games though.

You can get pretty good AC if you focus on it, but then you won't be able to do much else. High defenses are worthless without a reason for the enemy not to ignore you and go for the squishier targets.


I can see how you would. But like you have said, do you really want to have AC that high when it costs you a fair chunk of your WBL and the enemy laughs at your damage output?

Enemy melee combatants are going to be forced to attack others, just to hit something!

[HalfDragonCube]

I can see how you would. But like you have said, do you really want to have AC that high when it costs you a fair chunk of your WBL and the enemy laughs at your damage output?

Enemy melee combatants are going to be forced to attack others, just to hit something!

And you can be hit by Hail of Stone and other things like it. And you get screwed if you are over a Grease spell and touch attacks and being used.

[ericgrau]

I've read a few ideas on how to do this.
1. personally ok all character choices: sounds effective but it requires me to read up on everything just in case it'll overpower their characters beyond what i want them to have.

2. mass ban entire tiers of classes and such. effective but i don't truly understand the tier system well enough to implement this on classes and such that isn't tiered.
#1 is good in general, but don't try to make every character choice for them. Just disallow the really crazy stuff. Fortunately most players are nice enough not to get these in the first place, especially if you make your situation clear to the group.
#2 is a nightmare. Don't bother.

For the remaining gap ask the experienced players to help the builds of the newer players. i.e., all of this boils down to just talk to the group and generally things work out pretty well. Not talking, creating sweeping bans, banning entire playstyles and arbitrary bans of all kinds of random things you never mentioned before only creates frustration.

EDIT: Ya, having an AC so high that the DM could select monsters that only hit you on a nat 20 while they hit the party on a 3 causes serious issues in most casual groups. Presumably that build has good damage too; you can't assume it was a tradeoff. Once he breaks the limit at 45 it's more likely some trick. Either he roflstomps any encounter that won't 1 shot the rest of the party or the DM has to send weird encounters which only makes things worse for the newer players. 23-26 is reasonable at level 10.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

the AC 45 guy maybe be there to block the bigger oppentents getting to the party. by not having to face the big guy, the rest of the party can focus on the henchmen, do a plot objective, etc.


in a game im playing in, i have a lvl 8 wizard with a AC of 30.

[Divide by Zero]

the AC 45 guy maybe be there to block the bigger oppentents getting to the party. by not having to face the big guy, the rest of the party can focus on the henchmen, do a plot objective, etc.


in a game im playing in, i have a lvl 8 wizard with a AC of 30.

How does he block the big guy? Having that much investment in AC almost certainly means he isn't optimized for battlefield control.

[ericgrau]

The problem is not tanking for the rest of the party the problem is tanking for himself while he eliminates the encounter at his leisure. Unless it's an unusual encounter then see above comment. Again having one ability doesn't mean he can't do other things. Stats 20 points apart from party members cause serious issues regardless of which one it is. Heck 4 points apart on a d20 is quite large even.

[the_tick_rules]

my dm limited access to prestige classes if that helps. I mean you don't just become a whirling dervish because one day you felt like it.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

How does he block the big guy? Having that much investment in AC almost certainly means he isn't optimized for battlefield control.

it's called tactics, you learn it fairly fast in +8 ecl games

[Divide by Zero]

it's called tactics, you learn it fairly fast in +8 ecl games

How very patronizing of you :smallannoyed:

A 6th level fighter, especially one heavily focused on AC, has no mechanical means of preventing the opponent from simply going around them.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Having your optimizers hold back a bit helps a lot. But you should also really encourage your higher power optimizers to help out your lower level optimizers, as has been stated above a couple times. Let the group collectively look at character builds, and it should work out fine I would think.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

How very patronizing of you :smallannoyed:

A 6th level fighter, especially one heavily focused on AC, has no mechanical means of preventing the opponent from simply going around them.

there are mechanical means, i.e moving into way, everytime they try to get pass thats a Attack of op. you can push them over.

if the oppenent has a code of honer, you can call a challenge them

[Divide by Zero]

there are mechanical means, i.e moving into way, everytime they try to get pass thats a Attack of op. you can push them over.

if the oppenent has a code of honer, you can call a challenge them

Are we playing the same game? A fighter has no way of reliably moving on an opponent's turn.

As for the second point, that's a huge assumption and certainly not a mechanical one.

[AslanCross]

Crazy thought, talk to your players? Explain the situation to the powergamers, maybe get them to tone down their power level, assist the new members or some combination thereof?

This is really the best, easiest solution in my book. If they don't want to comply, it's more of a problem with them than with the game mechanics (that the game mechanics are breakable notwithstanding).

[NNescio]

there are mechanical means, i.e moving into way, everytime they try to get pass thats a Attack of op. you can push them over.

if the oppenent has a code of honer, you can call a challenge them

You can't bullrush as part of an AoO. Getting around your threatened area is also pathetically easy unless everybody is fighting in 10ft-wide corridors for some reason. And they are still ways to get around that.

The second point does jack if you're not a Knight.

"Fighter*: I challenge you to single combat!
Opponent: Yeah, right. Like that pansy in the skirt over there won't screw over me and my buddies while I'm playing around with you. Or the hippy and his pet wolf. Or the supercharged energizer bunny in armour with healing powers. Or the sneaky fellow over there who likes stabbing people. Or heaven forbid, that kung-fu wannabe might actually accidentally stun somebody. You? You do nothing."

(*A fully AC-oriented fighter, presumably at the expense of damage and battlefield control.)

Edit: Typo.

[Big Fau]

there are mechanical means, i.e moving into way, everytime they try to get pass thats a Attack of op. you can push them over.

if the oppenent has a code of honer, you can call a challenge them

Moving. During someone else's turn. With what (seeing as it's very unlikely a guy in plate is going to be using Evasive Reflexes)? As for the AoO, it's stupidly easy to get around something that lacks a 10ft reach (Withdraw action). And the afore-mentioned Fighter probably isn't a Chain-Tripper if he's that focused on AC.


And what the hell is "honer"?


"Scorpion*: I challenge you to Mortal Kombat!
Opponent: Yeah, right. Like that pansy in the skirt over there won't screw over me and my buddies while I'm playing around with you. Or the hippy and his pet wolf. Or the supercharged energizer bunny in armour with healing powers. Or the sneaky fellow over there who likes stabbing people. Or heaven forbid, that kung-fu wannable might actually accidentally stun somebody. You? You do nothing."

Fixed.

[supermonkeyjoe]

The best way, as has already been stated repeatedly, is talk to the player.

If they still insist on powergaming, three words: Mirror of Opposition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofOpposition)

Ubercharger isn't so good if he's the one being Ubercharged.

[Grim Reader]

Not wanting to get into the digression about the AC fighter, why don't you ask Mr. Customizer if he can be tempted to build something around War Weaver?

A PrC based around enabling other players is the place to put the best builders.

[Tancred]

Additionally, if the power-gamers really want to power-game, try giving them an extra challange. Maybe get them to make good build using, say, a monk, or another low-tier class. Similar to the Iron Chef contests here in Giantitp, where your given a suboptimal class and have to make the best of it.

"I heartily endorse this event or product."

I'm a powergamer, and I found myself in our current campign as the only person (aside from the DM) who'd ever played D&D before.

I set myself some rules to limit myself:
- Lawful Good (without being Lawful Stupid) and stick to it.
- PHB race only.
- After 1st level, at least 50% of classes must be Monk or Monk-like PrC's.
- No cheese, and all purchases/choices must fit the flavour of the character and the campaign.

I also decided to try to cover multiple roles (backup meatshield and backup scout) so that I wouldn't outshine anyone in any one particular area. That kinda fell through when the primary meatshield and the primary scout both left the group, but hey, nothing like a good challenge to keep a powergamer amused, and I'm having enormous fun trying to keep up with the rest of the party :smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Epic]

Reduce combat exp so players rely more on roleplaying exp.

[TroubleBrewing]

Or heaven forbid, that kung-fu wannabe might actually accidentally stun somebody.

This is the funniest thing I've read all day, and it's 6AM. At night.

You get a cookie.

[sonofzeal]

Restrict them to 100% NON-core (and no ToB). That usually helps a lot, and can make things pretty fun too.

[TroubleBrewing]

Restrict them to 100% NON-core (and no ToB). That usually helps a lot, and can make things pretty fun too.

Forcing this on myself actually helped a lot with system mastery. You learn splatbooks quick when they're your only options for base classes.

And then you open UA and find out that you can be a base class again, only BETTER.

[big teej]

I've read a few ideas on how to do this.
1. personally ok all character choices: sounds effective but it requires me to read up on everything just in case it'll overpower their characters beyond what i want them to have.

.

:smallconfused:

I do this anyways.

I have a standing rule of "if I don not personally own a hardcopy of the source, it's autobanned*"

this rule has the exception of
*if a player has a hardcopy source, I may approve things on an item by item basis.

this is also aided by the fact that I read all of my sourcebooks from cover to cover and make it known to the group if we'll be using them (or if not, why)

I also make sure to call out anything specific that I'm going to change from as written or ban from an otherwise approved book.

example
Races of Stone - fully approved book
changes - exotic armor not worth a feat

Book of Vile Darkness - reserved for DM only*
*I may allow certain enchantments and a very select few characters draw from here if it fits

Book of Exalted Deeds - banned, almost entirely
so far the only thing I've allowed from this book is the feat "ancestral relic" because it fit the player's concept to a T

Complete warrior - Banned, period. I don't have it. and none of my players do.

[JaronK]

Indeed, an enemy can just tumble past him, and if his damage output is quite low can often just suck up a hit and charge past. It's tough to have an AC that high and still be decent at tripping or otherwise providing a threat.

JaronK

[crazyhedgewizrd]

i have played a lot of game systems over the past 12 years. One of the things became consist, is that the person with the lowest initiative go first and a person with a high initiative can interrupt the person with the lower initiative.

the move i said was more of a trip then a bulls rush. the example i gave was a very narrow one. Most DM's should not react in a why of avoiding the fighter if they know they cannot hit them.

if you want to limit some powergaming just remove all books except the 3 main books, and choose what over sources you want after the player has giving a proper reason why they want it.

Dnd is not ment to have everything ever published. if the player is more interested in the mechanics and what it does or not do, they should not play.

at lot of the posts i read, make me feel like most of the games you would enjoy are living games.

[TroubleBrewing]

if you want to limit some powergaming just remove all books except the 3 main books,

Because optimization is impossible in Core? :smallconfused:

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Because optimization is impossible in Core? :smallconfused:

how long has it been since you just played with the main books.
i aslo said if you want something thats not in there talk to your game master.

[Amphetryon]

how long has it been since you just played with the main books.
i aslo said if you want something thats not in there talk to your game master.

Limiting to PHB, DMG, and MM1 hurts non-casters and partial casters (Ranger, Paladin) much more than it hurts the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Sorcerer. You end up widening the disparity between classes unless the player(s) of the aforementioned 4 classes consistently choose subpar spells and tactics AND the others are extraordinarily skilled at character creation and making high rolls on the dice.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

how does it limit non casters, by all effect casters should be more limited.
Magic over 4th level should be hard to find and above 6th level next to impossible. spell compontents are not easy to get, how many stores have 1000gp of diamond dust laying around. or some of the components have to be custom made.


(* im refering to spell level)

[NNescio]

i have played a lot of game systems over the past 12 years. One of the things became consist, is that the person with the lowest initiative go first and a person with a high initiative can interrupt the person with the lower initiative.

the move i said was more of a trip then a bulls rush. the example i gave was a very narrow one. Most DM's should not react in a why of avoiding the fighter if they know they cannot hit them.

if you want to limit some powergaming just remove all books except the 3 main books, and choose what over sources you want after the player has giving a proper reason why they want it.

Dnd is not ment to have everything ever published. if the player is more interested in the mechanics and what it does or not do, they should not play.

at lot of the posts i read, make me feel like most of the games you would enjoy are living games.

Houserule. Illegal in normal play. Also wouldn't fly past most DMs.

There's a very specific class of actions known as Immediate Actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions) These actions are extremely hard to get outside of spellcasting or the ToB, since they can potentially be quite powerful.

And if you are talking about readied actions, those require extremely specific triggers and eat up your standard actions.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

house rules are not illegal in normal play, and its up to the DMs to choose how they run their games.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

how does it limit non casters, by all effect casters should be more limited.
Magic over 4th level should be hard to find and above 6th level next to impossible. spell compontents are not easy to get, how many stores have 1000gp of diamond dust laying around. or some of the components have to be custom made.


(* im refering to spell level)

Most of the most broken spells (Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm), Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm)) are in Core. Most of the things which allow other classes to work effectively are in splats. Therefore Casters aren't as effected whereas Mundanes are.

Spell components are fairly easy to get, actually, they're included in the Spell Component pouch (which it is assumed by the game you replenish whenever you go shopping). To limit access to other spell components (diamond dust as you mentioned) can be an effective way of limiting access to some spells, but the game doesn't make that assumption, and to limit access is a houserule.


house rules are not illegal in normal play, and its up to the DMs to choose how they run their games.

House rules are by definition illegal in normal play, otherwise they wouldn't be house rules.

[Divide by Zero]

house rules are not illegal in normal play, and its up to the DMs to choose how they run their games.

But it's not something you can assume when you're discussing what to do in other people's games.

[NNescio]

how does it limit non casters, by all effect casters should be more limited.
Magic over 4th level should be hard to find and above 6th level next to impossible. spell compontents are not easy to get, how many stores have 1000gp of diamond dust laying around. or some of the components have to be custom made.


(* im refering to spell level)

Wizards automatically gain two bonus spells known when they level up. Sorcerers spontaneously develop their spells. Clerics automatically know every single Cleric spell that they can cast, and their domain spells. Druids also automatically know Druid spells, similar to Clerics.

A lot of good spells don't even require expensive spell components.

All of this is core and explicitly spelled out. Explicitly. Spelled. Out. Repeatedly.


house rules are not illegal in normal play, and its up to the DMs to choose how they run their games.
Ah yes, because Crazy Hedge Wizard's house rules are always legal in normal games. I am reasonably sure that most DMs don't use your houserules, and most people probably have never even heard of them.

You aren't playing core, period.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Most of the most broken spells (Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm), Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm)) are in Core. Most of the things which allow other classes to work effectively are in splats. Therefore Casters aren't as effected whereas Mundanes are.

Yep. And what does melee have? Improved trip and power attack. No shock trooper, no spirit lion totem barbarian, no ToB, etc.

[Ranos]

To be fair, the OP IS asking for ways of limiting powergaming, so houserules such as limiting access to spell components are on topic. Not that I personally think it's a very good or well though-out idea, but it is relevant.

[NNescio]

To be fair, the OP IS asking for ways of limiting powergaming, so houserules such as limiting access to spell components are on topic. Not that I personally think it's a very good or well though-out idea, but it is relevant.

Ah, yes, but he was using those 'houserules' he came up with to defend his earlier assertion that an AC-focused fighter can perform adequate battlefield control. And he called it "tactics" and "mechanical means". As such, it's a complete non-sequitur.

[Ranos]

Ah, yes, but he was using those 'houserules' he came up with to defend his earlier assertion that an AC-focused fighter can perform adequate battlefield control. And he called it "tactics" and "mechanical means". As such, it's a complete non-sequitur.
Oh, right. My bad. That'll teach me to just skim the conversation :smallwink:


To answer the OP's question, I think mass tier bannings wouldn't be that hard to pull off. You don't really need any knowledge of the game.
Get rid of all core classes. Get rid of any casters who get 9th level spells, or psionic powers. 9th level shadowcasting, maneuvers, vestiges, etc... are fine. Keep those. If you want to go any further, you'll have to add the samurai, ninja, swashbuckler, soulknife, truenamer, and knight to the banned pile.

And that's about done. I think just by doing that, you've balanced the game a whole lot more. Now you have a game of warlocks, binders, shadowcasters, factotums and warblades. All the horribly weak and horribly strong classes gone.

[Glimbur]

Right. Topic. Limiting powergamers.

My first answer is to do nothing... at first. See how the first session goes, and if imagined imbalances actually appear. If that's the case, talk to each person who stood out as too competent, too spotlight-snaring, and so on. Politely ask them to help other people have fun as well. System mastery doesn't happen quickly, but it can happen, especially with tutoring from more experienced players.

If the more experienced players don't step down their power to help everyone have fun, give them another chance. Give them a challenge like "melee only" or "no full casters" or such. That's not really sufficient to balance things if they don't play along with being less powerful but it might help.

If the more experienced players are adamant about being more powerful than the new people... you have two groups of players who want two different types of games. The last solution is splitting into two groups. It hurts, but it is better than one group not having fun.

[MeeposFire]

Oh, right. My bad. That'll teach me to just skim the conversation :smallwink:


To answer the OP's question, I think mass tier bannings wouldn't be that hard to pull off. You don't really need any knowledge of the game.
Get rid of all core classes. Get rid of any casters who get 9th level spells, or psionic powers. 9th level shadowcasting, maneuvers, vestiges, etc... are fine. Keep those. If you want to go any further, you'll have to add the samurai, ninja, swashbuckler, soulknife, truenamer, and knight to the banned pile.

And that's about done. I think just by doing that, you've balanced the game a whole lot more. Now you have a game of warlocks, binders, shadowcasters, factotums and warblades. All the horribly weak and horribly strong classes gone.

There are consequences that you will not intend if you do it that way. Unless you change the way the game handles healing you will find that even minor wounds become very annoying when it takes days to heal back to full. There are ways around this but many of them are not intuitive (such as using a halfling binder with access to the mark of healing and the buer vestige or tenebrous with the divine healing feat that way you can heal, remove conditions, and bring people back to life). Or you can come up with new healing system but once again it is more work.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Ah, yes, but he was using those 'houserules' he came up with to defend his earlier assertion that an AC-focused fighter can perform adequate battlefield control. And he called it "tactics" and "mechanical means". As such, it's a complete non-sequitur.

just forget what i said about that, and im sorry you got court up in it.
It was only one rule change i said, you could have ignored it. I wasnt telling you to accept it, and everyone changes the rules just abit to suit their style of play.
So should i just discount you, for what you said.


A lot of the problems arise are because of lazy DMs how let their player do anything they want, from alternate class features, spells, whole books, and worst homebrew stuff they find on the internet.

[Ranos]

There are consequences that you will not intend if you do it that way. Unless you change the way the game handles healing you will find that even minor wounds become very annoying when it takes days to heal back to full. There are ways around this but many of them are not intuitive (such as using a halfling binder with access to the mark of healing and the buer vestige or tenebrous with the divine healing feat that way you can heal, remove conditions, and bring people back to life). Or you can come up with new healing system but once again it is more work.

Well, there are still healers around, like the Dragon shaman, the Savant, the Crusader, the Incarnate, the Divine Mind, the Binder, the Chameleon, the Beloved of Valarian, the Champion of Gwynharwyf, the Emissary of Barachiel, and probably more I missed.

And then there are feats like the dragonmark one, healing devotion... and lots of magic items. Many classes can use wands, and healing belts are cheap.

[Divide by Zero]

Well, there are still healers around, like the Dragon shaman, the Savant, the Crusader, the Incarnate, the Binder, the Chameleon, the Beloved of Valarian, the Champion of Gwynharwyf, the Emissary of Barachiel, and probably more I missed.

And then there are feats like the dragonmark one, healing devotion... and lots of magic items. Many classes can use wands, and healing belts are cheap.

And how many of those things are at all effective at healing things other than HP damage? Because that would be the least of my concerns, to be honest.

[Ranos]

And how many of those things are at all effective at healing things other than HP damage? Because that would be the least of my concerns, to be honest.

From that list, Savant, Divine Mind, Chameleon, Beloved of Valarian, Champion of Gwynharwyf can do restoration spells, if that's what you're asking. Crusader can also do it, but only at very high levels. Also the Binder, with the trick Meepo mentionned, but it's not immediately evident.

Also, many, many magic items can do it. Orb of mental renewal and rod of bodily restoration (each 3100 GP) come to mind. Also wands.

[Big Fau]

And how many of those things are at all effective at healing things other than HP damage? Because that would be the least of my concerns, to be honest.

Well, a 17th level Crusader can cure Paralysis, Ability Damage, and a number of other hindrances.

[MeeposFire]

That is the problem though isn't it? I know there are classes that can heal hp damage and ways to do the other aspects of a healers job but they are not intuitive and you need to make a plan on how the party is going to do that function. That can be a bit of work. One houserule might be to designate certain classes as "leader" classes and give those classes free access to the mark of healing feats so that you can deal with basic healing magics (good classes might dragon shamans, marshals, bards, dragonfire adepts, binders, incarnates, and monks).

[sonofzeal]

Healing things besides HP damage is best left to scrolls/potions anyway. Even if you have a Cleric, it's not worth a 4th lvl spell slot for "Neutralize Poison" unless you're absolutely sure it's going to be relevant, which is rare. Especially since it's competing with Divine Power, Lesser Planar Ally, Freedom of Movement, Dimensional Anchor, Air Walk, and Death Ward - all of which are pretty solidly better spells. So unless you're playing an MH Healer, chances are you'll be preparing useful spells, and keep a couple scrolls of whatever restoratives around for emergency.

[Munchkin-Masher]

Limiting powergamers is as easy as talking to them and telling them that you would prefer if they didn't totally **** up your campaign, hell they can still play something cheesy if that's what they want.

As an example, i really ****ing love the fluff and feel of the Shadowcraft Mage, but it is also one of the most easily abused classes in the game, but as long as intentionally don't use the tricks that make the over powered everything is fine and dandy.

[Greenish]

Book of Exalted Deeds - banned, almost entirely
so far the only thing I've allowed from this book is the feat "ancestral relic" because it fit the player's concept to a TYou should consider the non-lethal weapons, they're quite useful when you don't want to kill enemies for some reason.


Dnd is not ment to have everything ever published. if the player is more interested in the mechanics and what it does or not do, they should not play.You are no authority to tell people how they should play their games, and assuming that everyone who plays differently from you is doing it wrong will only make you look bad.

Get rid of any casters who get 9th level spells, or psionic powers.

…

All the horribly weak and horribly strong classes gone.As are beguilers, dread necromancers, wilders and warmagi. :smallfrown:

Oh, but you'll still have Artificers.

[Darth Stabber]

Oh, right. My bad. That'll teach me to just skim the conversation :smallwink:


To answer the OP's question, I think mass tier bannings wouldn't be that hard to pull off. You don't really need any knowledge of the game.
Get rid of all core classes. Get rid of any casters who get 9th level spells, or psionic powers. 9th level shadowcasting, maneuvers, vestiges, etc... are fine. Keep those. If you want to go any further, you'll have to add the samurai, ninja, swashbuckler, soulknife, truenamer, and knight to the banned pile.

And that's about done. I think just by doing that, you've balanced the game a whole lot more. Now you have a game of warlocks, binders, shadowcasters, factotums and warblades. All the horribly weak and horribly strong classes gone.

Sort of my suggestion except
No tier 1
No tier 5 or below except as dips.
Spell casters cannot take a new PRC until they finish the first one (though they may return to their normal progression instead of finishing)

Test house rule, tier 5 and 6 may gestalt with other 5 and 6 classes, but as soon as they take a PRC or more than 2 lvls of a 4+ class they get no more gestalt. No one has taken me up on it yet, but it's like "en passant in" chess, it's rarely used, but it is a rule.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

You are no authority to tell people how they should play their games, and assuming that everyone who plays differently from you is doing it wrong will only make you look bad.

im not telling people how they should play, but getting into how the mechanics of the game is run, you lose out on the story the DM is trying to make. It's his world not the players, they are there just to explore it.

and in the first post he was just letting players have the 3 main books and extra book for each player is fine.

[Safety Sword]

im not telling people how they should play, but getting into how the mechanics of the game is run, you lose out on the story the DM is trying to make. It's his world not the players, they are there just to explore it.

and in the first post he was just letting players have the 3 main books and extra book for each player is fine.

I might provide the world, but my players and I all make the story together. The story actually belongs to the PCs, since it is generally centered upon their interactions with the world.

If it's just the DMs world then rocks will all from the sky and kill all the PCs for always changing things.

[Greenish]

im not telling people how they should play, but getting into how the mechanics of the game is run, you lose out on the story the DM is trying to make. It's his world not the players, they are there just to explore it.You do realize you're contradicting yourself by telling people how they should play in the same paragraph where you're claiming you're not telling people how they should play? :smallamused:

[crazyhedgewizrd]

I might provide the world, but my players and I all make the story together. The story actually belongs to the PCs, since it is generally centered upon their interactions with the world.

If it's just the DMs world then rocks will all from the sky and kill all the PCs for always changing things.

The DM provides the back story, the restrictions, the allowable class, spells and rule changes. there is more going on than what the PCs do, they might have the spotlight, but they dont get everything they want.


You do realize you're contradicting yourself by telling people how they should play in the same paragraph where you're claiming you're not telling people how they should play?

contradictions are a part of life, i dont like players with 30+ books at the table so they can ran their character and has to stop the game so they can double check what an the action does. Im just trying to say enjoy the story, the character build should not the be all and end all of the game.

[Midnight_v]

I think maybe if the issue is everyone not shining enough as the op says...
Maybe, the focus should be on
1. Getting the players who aren't very skilled to be more adept at game play as suggested give them tob classes for example (which are good, because its HARD to make bad choices with one, and its not just I hit it again)
and more importantly....
2. Get some spin on what powergaming really is. This is harder to really suggest because people hell anyone person really is resistant to contrary information, but for most people who play and haven't really been perusing the boards long, they don't realize: D&D doesn't work like you think it does.

AC 45 at level 10 isn't powergamey... its a little better than average but only a little. Honestly. The only reason I can think of that someone dm'ing might think that is because they're busily focusing on melee and ranges attacks instead of magic and even then there are melee brutes that might be capable of hitting a level 10 45 ac.

I should be sleeping but I'd like to HUMBLY suggest you read treantmonklvl20's guide to being god. Its not about dm's its about magic. Its snarky I warn you and its not a dm guide really however, it does illuminate how little melee really means, and how when you say "Powergamer" each person in the room thinks of a different optimization level.

I should be sleep right now but I'm interested in what the op has said and so I've grabbed my MM and here's a list of creatures CR10 that can reliably deal with his 45 ac:
Animated Object: Colossal (+25 slam 4d6 +13 Dmg 30ft reach)
Bebelith: Web the party, grapple the 45 ac guy +16 hide and planeshift at will
Coautl: Charm Monster, then Obscuring mist, then Polymorph self: 9hd Hydra
Formian Myrmarch: Dictum, Charm Monster dc 17 at will, teleport the charmed pc away.
Clay Golem: Does care about the Ac but with Dr/10 You're not getting past this and unoptimized mages in the party It could be a challenge for your tank, further this creature WILL just attack the guy in full plate standing in front of the party. Unintelligent and all.
11headed Hydra: Another grappler, the attack is only +16 but the +25 grapple and 11 attacks per round mean its going to end poorly for the melee dudes. Need to have a mage shine here.
Monstrous Scorpion, Gargantuan: +37 grapple... 150 hp? Improved grab means it only has to hit once on that 20 or just flat footed regualar grapple attempt.
Guardian naga: Greater Invisibility, Spit poison +9 Touch, all it has to do is start the fight invisible. Not great but a challenge.
Rakshasha: Actually cast as 7th level sorcerers so lead with Deep Slumber then follow with stinking cloud. or vice versa this is one of the reasons I suggest reading the guid to being god. So many monsters derive their power from being X-level sorcerers, but honestly the lists need to be made something rational.
Noble Salamander: Has wall of fire 3/day so: Wall of fire(in front of or on top of party) Wall of fire(in front of party) Wall of fire behind the salamander (facing the party). Summon monster 7: Huge Fire Elemental (which is likely going to grapple someone who's standing in or being burned by the aura of a wall of fire.
Grey Slaad: Is a shapeshifter so I should always have an attack round really, So it going to go: Surprise round (or before the players know there's about to be combat depending on the scenario) Animate Object: Huge.
Round1: Invisiblity Round 2: Fly Round 3: Animate Object Huge, Round 4 animate object huge. Then Its aerial assault. Deeper Darkness, Chaos Hammer, Power Word: Stun, Lightning bolt at will.
I really hope you read that and get something from it.
I stayed awake too long typing that but I'm hoping its more hopeful that simple conjecture about who's doing what wrong and where.
What I have gained from this is a new Idea for a handbook.
Dm'ing: Important tactics for various monsters.
Good luck and happy gaming. :smallcool:

[olentu]

contradictions are a part of life, i dont like players with 30+ books at the table so they can ran their character and has to stop the game so they can double check what an the action does. Im just trying to say enjoy the story, the character build should not the be all and end all of the game.

I have seen people playing characters that use only the PHB have to stop and check things, not even complex things mind you.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

I have seen people playing characters that use only the PHB have to stop and check things, not even complex things mind you.

will thats better than not remembering the book the thing came from.

[gomipile]

The problem I've run into with situations like yours is that the type of group you are talking about tends to have a wide variety of what they consider to be "overpowered."

Often a group like this will consider a well-played and optimized tier 3 or 4 class to be "overpowered" while embracing the average played wizard, cleric, or druid.

I'd say you should throw the less optimizing players a bone by leveling the playing field a bit. Offer retraining as in the PHB II, maybe even twice per level if they are replacing stuff that's really useless. This will not help the optimizing characters as much as they'll not be making useless class choices in the first place. Have friendly NPCs who will do Psychic Reformation for the party for a nominal fee or as a reward for quests. Hell, offer flat-out rerolls as a quest reward. After saving a town, the head priest of your religion offers you a ritual that turns your fighter into a warblade, etc.

When you do this, have the optimizers help the non-optimizers. Let the game and the meta-game be a game and challenge every player has fun and cooperates in.

In my favorite session, everyone, including the DM, participates in meta-game discussions on the best next feats to take, or spells for the wizard to learn, etc.

Also, if the optimizers are playing well-played tier 1 and 2 classes primarily as buffers or blasters, the less optimized players will probably be very happy playing decent tier 3 or 4 blasty classes receiving buffs from the tier 1s and 2s.

[olentu]

will thats better than not remembering the book the thing came from.

And yet they still have to look things up. But then perhaps you were not complaining about the distraction of stopping the game to look things up rather something about the number of books. Perhaps 30+ books are just to heavy and the table collapses. Perhaps the players are not good at stacking and the books routinely crush the other players. Some clarification on the issue would be useful.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The problem I've run into with situations like yours is that the type of group you are talking about tends to have a wide variety of what they consider to be "overpowered."

Often a group like this will consider a well-played and optimized tier 3 or 4 class to be "overpowered" while embracing the average played wizard, cleric, or druid.

My group is like this. I played a fighter in a short lived campaign, got to negative HP in a lot of sessions. I'm playing a warblade in the new one (BTW, nobody in my group has ToB)? DM thinks its overpowered. Nevermind the fact that we're level 5 and we're facing a bunch of level 1 mooks, but as soon as I used mountain hammer on the catapult? Boom. Of course, the least experienced player is playing the only caster, a sorcerer, and the guy likes lots of blaster spells. At least he got invisibility on his spell list.

I might still be able to play a warblade though, if over the next few sessions it doesn't overachieve. Though if I ever use the stone dragon lockpick as a lockpick, I think that character's just plain out.

[gomipile]

kk thanx guys. i'll have to see how getting these guys to tone it down goes. i spose i'd only really be worried about if one guy will do it. he's also the reason that the individual ok doesn't work. he revels in finding obscure material that doesn't seem broken and making it work in the most ridiculous ways. (ie: no 10th level fighter from a reasonable player should have an ac of 45)

I just read this follow up. If your worst offender is playing a class tier 3 or higher(fighter is tier 5), DM creativity alone is enough to keep him from causing more than the occasional problem.

The very definition of tier 5 means that a fighter is not a very versatile character. Even if a fighter is min/maxed, it still cannot overcome the fact that it is a fighter.

Some gentle nudging and encouragement of the other players as suggested in my earlier post should probably be all that is needed to balance things out.

[Divide by Zero]

im not telling people how they should play, but getting into how the mechanics of the game is run, you lose out on the story the DM is trying to make. It's his world not the players, they are there just to explore it.

It's the DM's world, but it's the players' characters. I don't ban anything in my games, because I don't like limiting the players' options for their characters' mechanical development (god forbid the fighter might actually be competent at his job). Might have something to do with the fact that I don't play with people who insist on breaking the game after I ask them not to.

[Stix]

A 10th level fighter with an AC of 45 seems reasonable. Pretty weak, in fact. First, because he's a fighter, and second because focusing on AC this much is pretty far from optimal.


the problem was he was also using primarily support combat tactics. if anyone missed an attack on him he could disarm them/trip them. it literally forced me to either blast him with spells (he loaded up as much SR equipment as he could) or have something that was going to hit him reasonably often with enough force to make it count. (see also: one shots most of the other characters on every swing)

[Divide by Zero]

the problem was he was also using primarily support combat tactics. if anyone missed an attack on him he could disarm them/trip them. it literally forced me to either blast him with spells (he loaded up as much SR equipment as he could) or have something that was going to hit him reasonably often with enough force to make it count. (see also: one shots most of the other characters on every swing)

That still leaves the question of why they were attacking him in the first place.