Exploring the Dark Side: Playing an Evil Character

[Archpaladin Zousha]

In direct defiance of my username, I'm attempting to play an Evil character for an upcoming Evil game on these very forums, and being the goody-goody I am, I need some assistance in making sure this character doesn't come across as the traditional Stupid Evil or Chaotic Stupid figure.

The character is an alchemist named Dahrehn the Poisoned, and the nature of the game I'm playing him in is that the PCs are all childhood friends who have joined a criminal gang together, and about our rise from simple goons to the thrones of the city's underworld.

Dahrehn is Neutral Evil and worships the Pathfinder god Norgorber, a god of secrets, blackmail, poison and murder. So the question is, how exactly should Dahrehn behave?

I want to portray him like he's the group's psycho-on-a-leash, the rest of them relatively sane but ruthless people who just want to rise from poverty. I had thought about the idea of making him a drug addict, but with the finances of a level 1 character, that's not really an option, as I spent almost all his money on the gear he needs to survive combat. The vibe I want to give with him is that he's teetering on the edge between man and monster, someone who can barely function in society without his friends to point him at something that needs torturing or poisoning every so often. A person who's one drug overdose away from dying, one slip-up away from being arrested and executed, one psychotic reaction away from his friends shipping him off to the sanitarium for his sake and theirs.

Is Neutral Evil the best alignment for this guy? I shied away from Chaotic Evil because to me that's more "WAAAAAGH!!! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!" This guy isn't the kind of guy who'd murder people in the street in the middle of broad daylight, or even the kind who'd commit secret killings on lone victims in the dead of night. If he does kill, it's either in self-defense as someone's trying to kill him or his friends, or at the end of a torture session at his friends' orders.

Am I over-thinking this?

[DragonOfUndeath]

Try playing exactly how you said, right on the edge.
Have your character get really riled up frequently and either attack there and then or take a few deep breaths, calm doqwn and begin a cold-blooded plot to either publicly humiliate them by revealing secrets or poisoning them.

[dsmiles]

I think you're on the right track. Though, in all fairness, you could still make him a drug addict (if you really wanted to). He could currently be suffering from withdrawals, and every time he gets more cash, he buys his fix.

[hoff]

You could make him an alcoholic, alcohol is cheap on most fantasy worlds.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I dunno, alcoholic isn't the kind of addict I'm trying to make him look like. He's twitchy, not stumbly.

[Telonius]

The character sounds a bit like a cross between Tommy DeVito and Tony Montana, so I'd recommend taking an afternoon of mob movies to do a bit of research. Scarface and Goodfellas, it might give you a bit of inspiration.

As for the alignment ... poisoner suggests that he's chaotic. So does the fact that he's clearly an outlaw. CE is not the same thing as Chaotic Stupid. Just like there's not just one sort of LG character, not every CE character is a foaming-at-the-mouth Reaver. Don't let the labels bother you, just play him as you've described and it should be fine.

[jidasfire]

As many are quick to point out, evil people can love, and evil people can have friends, but the question becomes what those evil people are willing to do in the name of love and friendship, and if they will occasionally cross the line even with the people they care about. If your character has low self-control, he may occasionally turn on his friends (not in a manner of conscious betrayal, more in a blind rage), and feel bad about it later, or justify it to himself as necessary. But at the same time, he'd need to be likeable enough during his high and happy moments that the others would keep him around as something other than an attack dog. So let the character hit highs and lows, to highlight that he's not really in control of himself. That might give him a bit of depth while letting him be as nasty and crazy as you like.

[Seb Wiers]

Is Neutral Evil the best alignment for this guy? I shied away from Chaotic Evil because to me that's more "WAAAAAGH!!! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!" This guy isn't the kind of guy who'd murder people in the street in the middle of broad daylight, or even the kind who'd commit secret killings on lone victims in the dead of night. If he does kill, it's either in self-defense as someone's trying to kill him or his friends, or at the end of a torture session at his friends' orders.

I think that kind of is the definition of chaotic evil. He's self destructive, has no regard for others, and is likely to hurt even those he cares about (through negligence if nothing else).
Orcs are chaotic evil, and this guys behavior sounds pretty much like your typical orc soldier, only he doesn't bicker quite as much with his team mates.
Its borderline, for sure. You may want to shift back and forth, depending on drug use. One of the common problems with drug addicts is they care more about getting drugs than they do about hurting their friends.

[hamishspence]

This guy isn't the kind of guy who'd murder people in the street in the middle of broad daylight, or even the kind who'd commit secret killings on lone victims in the dead of night. If he does kill, it's either in self-defense as someone's trying to kill him or his friends, or at the end of a torture session at his friends' orders.

Not really a problem- there's some room for "does evil on the orders of others" to be CE rather than LE- the character's Chaotic nature simply manifests itself in a different way.

[Warlawk]

I want to portray him like he's the group's psycho-on-a-leash, the rest of them relatively sane but ruthless people who just want to rise from poverty. I had thought about the idea of making him a drug addict, but with the finances of a level 1 character, that's not really an option, as I spent almost all his money on the gear he needs to survive combat. The vibe I want to give with him is that he's teetering on the edge between man and monster, someone who can barely function in society without his friends to point him at something that needs torturing or poisoning every so often. A person who's one drug overdose away from dying, one slip-up away from being arrested and executed, one psychotic reaction away from his friends shipping him off to the sanitarium for his sake and theirs.




This guy isn't the kind of guy who'd murder people in the street in the middle of broad daylight, or even the kind who'd commit secret killings on lone victims in the dead of night. If he does kill, it's either in self-defense as someone's trying to kill him or his friends, or at the end of a torture session at his friends' orders.


It could be that I'm not entirely awake yet, but those two things seem to be directly at odds. The kind of guy who is teetering on the brink, one slip away from completely psychotic break isn't the kind of reserved in control killer who only does so in self defense or specific circumstances. Like I said, I may just be seeing things wrong, but those two paragraphs seem to be a bit at odds with each other.

As for how to play him, I can only give you the advice I give myself for my own characters. He is a person, get inside his head. Knowing what he will do is never going to be as important as why he is going to do it. If he is one step away from losing it... why? What made him that way? Did mommy or daddy ignore/abuse him? Some outside person? Figure out what made him the way he is, the motivations behind his issues and the actions that he would take will follow easily.

[Talya]

As many are quick to point out, evil people can love, and evil people can have friends, but the question becomes what those evil people are willing to do in the name of love and friendship, and if they will occasionally cross the line even with the people they care about. If your character has low self-control, he may occasionally turn on his friends (not in a manner of conscious betrayal, more in a blind rage), and feel bad about it later, or justify it to himself as necessary. But at the same time, he'd need to be likeable enough during his high and happy moments that the others would keep him around as something other than an attack dog. So let the character hit highs and lows, to highlight that he's not really in control of himself. That might give him a bit of depth while letting him be as nasty and crazy as you like.

I'd actually question even this. An Evil person need not be disloyal. Even a chaotic evil person can have family and friends he loves and cares about. A man can be an excellent father who raises his children well and treats his wife perfectly, a saint in every way, yet also be Adolf Hitler. Judge evil not just by how they treat those that they care about, but by how they treat everyone else.

[hamishspence]

Pretty much.


An evil character can be a loving parent (such as Grendel's mother), a faithful spouse, a loyal friend, or a devoted servant without diminishing their villainy in any way; this merely reflects the way in which people compartmentalize their lives and the fact that they behave in different ways toward different groups, brutalizing those they consider beneath them but treating their peers and loved ones with respect and affection.

[jidasfire]

I'd actually question even this. An Evil person need not be disloyal. Even a chaotic evil person can have family and friends he loves and cares about. A man can be an excellent father who raises his children well and treats his wife perfectly, a saint in every way, yet also be Adolf Hitler. Judge evil not just by how they treat those that they care about, but by how they treat everyone else.

That may be theoretically true (though I question how many people capable of real evil are experts at keeping it out of their personal lives completely), but the character in question is designed to be unstable, and if you've ever met anyone who is unstable, they do tend to turn on their friends and family, sometimes at random, even if they feel bad about it later. If I'm reading the character description correctly and interpreting correctly, this isn't a rational person who compartmentalizes their behavior. It's a person who doesn't have a great deal of control over himself. That guy isn't this mythical loving and cuddly villain who is sweet to his kids but murders strangers.

[hamishspence]

That guy isn't this mythical loving and cuddly villain who is sweet to his kids but murders strangers.

True- the character is part of a criminal gang already. Loyalty to friends and comrades might be the closest thing they have to a "redeeming feature".


That may be theoretically true (though I question how many people capable of real evil are experts at keeping it out of their personal lives completely),

In some areas, the whole community might have a group which they oppress and mistreat- but this oppression is reserved for that group.

That's probably the way a lot of LE states are run.

Or, in this case, it might be "crime Families" where they treat their kids well, but strangers badly.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It could be that I'm not entirely awake yet, but those two things seem to be directly at odds. The kind of guy who is teetering on the brink, one slip away from completely psychotic break isn't the kind of reserved in control killer who only does so in self defense or specific circumstances. Like I said, I may just be seeing things wrong, but those two paragraphs seem to be a bit at odds with each other.

As for how to play him, I can only give you the advice I give myself for my own characters. He is a person, get inside his head. Knowing what he will do is never going to be as important as why he is going to do it. If he is one step away from losing it... why? What made him that way? Did mommy or daddy ignore/abuse him? Some outside person? Figure out what made him the way he is, the motivations behind his issues and the actions that he would take will follow easily.

The main problem is that the setting for the game hasn't been fully described yet, so I can't really write his backstory well. All I have for it is the fact that he's no stranger to banditry, and he was inducted into Norgorber's church. I've got no real clue of how that church operates, since as a god of secrets, Norgorber's faithful don't let ANYONE know what they do.

I think in his spare time he's either high, which makes him feel so good he doesn't feel the need to kill, or experimenting on animals to vent his urges so he doesn't do it to people. Once in a very great while he might kidnap a bum and torture him, but that's when he can't find something else that won't attract as much attention.

This kind of shows how lost I am with this. I've never played Evil before, so I'm not sure how to keep their behavior consistent.

[Telonius]

This kind of shows how lost I am with this. I've never played Evil before, so I'm not sure how to keep their behavior consistent.

Maybe part of the problem you're having is that often (though not nearly always) Chaotic Evil characters don't take the time to measure their actions against some kind of moral hierarchy. There's consistency in the behavior, but it's not because they're consciously choosing to act consistently. Typically (again, not always), selfishness is the lens through which they see everything. How is this action going to benefit me? A smart Chaotic Evil character will wait until he's reasonably sure he won't be caught or punished before he hurts others selfishly, without regard to law or custom. (See also "Sexy Shoeless God of War").

You can substitute other things for selfishness, depending on what his primary motivation might be. Greed, fear, anger, frustration, desire for oblivion, desire to escape one's problems, or even a misguided desire to protect people, or to love, would work. A Good character typically sets up mental barriers to prevent those things from taking over. An Evil character lacks those mental stoppers.

[Analytica]

I just want to add that this seems like a very interesting character, that I would appreciate both to play and to play with. :smallsmile:

Just as you suggested, you might want to prepare some notes on conditional actions; if X happens, character might do Y. When character is in mode Z, character usually does W etc. This can arguably help adding quick, consistent reactions even for a character with a personality very different from your own.

One thing my group has had a lot of fun with has been random tables for deranged behaviour, written by the player (usually) for their character. If they experience some form of limit break, roll a dice and see which personality facet/trait becomes dominant for a while. Examples of this were a sorcerer with the personalities of the cabal who created him held inside his unconscious mind, who could emerge from time to time, and a malfunctioning droid that could shift between multiple personalities. It doesn't have to be that extreme, though.

I also had a drug addict-type character who used a variety of substances just to be able to feel. I made up a list of which personality traits each drug affected, then had her change her behaviour accordingly. This became interactive after a while, so that when she felt lack of control, she used megalomania-inducing drugs, when she were too stirred up she used sedatives, and so forth.

[Rixx]

You could always go the opposite direction, and have a character who is really mellow and hazy all the time (with somewhat unexpected bouts of clarity, cunning, and cruelty) because he IS high on something most of the time. It's whenever he comes down off the drugs that he becomes a cruel, murderous monster. This way, you can have your creepy evil both ways - a serene, calm, even friendly individual who seems a bit thick but performs atrocities without changing his demeanor at all, who becomes a maniacal murderous psychopath whenever he lapses in his habit of doping himself up.

honk

HONK

[Magesmiley]

Dahrehn is Neutral Evil and worships the Pathfinder god Norgorber, a god of secrets, blackmail, poison and murder. So the question is, how exactly should Dahrehn behave?

Someone following a god with a portfolio like that actually suggests a character that is intensely paranoid to me. I think that might might be a fun way to play the character. Perhaps he acts the way he does because he is convinced that everyone is out to get him and that he'd prefer to get everyone else first.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

honk

HONK

Ummm...what? :smallconfused:

[crimson77]

The main problem is that the setting for the game hasn't been fully described yet, so I can't really write his backstory well. All I have for it is the fact that he's no stranger to banditry, and he was inducted into Norgorber's church.
One does not need a world or game to be fully described for you to create the core of his backstory, which is his personality. Think about what might make him tick and then add in details that the DM presents.

This kind of shows how lost I am with this. I've never played Evil before, so I'm not sure how to keep their behavior consistent.
I want to echo the other posters and suggest that you might be over thinking your character a little. Think of the kind of personality that you want your character to have. You ask a really great question to the forums but really it is a question that you should ask yourself first.

So the question is, how exactly should Dahrehn behave?
You kind of have started to answer it (which i have summarized below).

I want to portray him like he's the group's psycho-on-a-leash...Is Neutral Evil the best alignment for this guy? I shied away from Chaotic Evil because to me that's more "WAAAAAGH!!! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!"

This guy isn't the kind of guy who'd murder people in the street in the middle of broad daylight, or even the kind who'd commit secret killings on lone victims in the dead of night. If he does kill, it's either in self-defense as someone's trying to kill him or his friends, or at the end of a torture session at his friends' orders.
When you describe a "psycho-on-a-leash," I personally get the idea that this will be a CE or NE character; more likely the latter. However, in the second block of text you describe more of a cold calculated character, which i would consider to be more LE.

Am I over-thinking this?
I think that it would be important for you to consider chaos outside of evil. The first question you might ask yourself is does this character recognize the presence of laws (not choose to ignore them) but does he recognize their presence. If not, then you are really playing more of a "psycho-on-a-leash" type (CE/NE). However, you might want to consider more of the LE type.

For fun, I would like to give my definition of evil. This is what I use in my campaigns. Evil could be defined as the selfish action or cognition that places the needs of a narrowly defined in-group (or individual) over that of the civilized community at large.

Now returning to your character, what you describe to me is a character that on the surface might follow the laws but will exploit or carefully break them (ensure he does not get caught) to benefit the group. He is intelligent and slow to revenge. He may set into motion plans that will carefully unfold delivering poison to an intended target without anyone thinking or even suspecting that it was him. He appears as a well liked guy, people even comment upon his high outward appearance of morals; however, this just causes him to chuckle inward at his own hypocrisy and ability to fool them. In any altercation where blood is spilled within the town, he is quick to show fault in the other party. He has even gone so far as as to stab himself in the back and place the blooded dagger in the hand of a dead townsman (whom he killed for a golden ring) so as to justify the killing when the town guard arrived to question him. He was of course acquitted of all charges, he was only defending himself; it was the only logical conclusion that could be drawn given the circumstances.....

Does that sound like the character you want to play?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The concept in my head was more along the lines of "The Joker, but without the clown gimmick, and following someone else's orders instead of leading the gang."

[Grytorm]

Ummm...what? :smallconfused:

Homestuck. Gamzee after he runs out of Sopor Pies.

Edit

Which Joker. The original jewel thief, The Dark Knight Joker, or the Joker from the earlier film.

Also the character could be played as kind of directionless. Going out to fight goblins because that what his buddies are doing. "Oh? They've been killing people, that's nice." (Quote not from anywhere)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Homestuck. Gamzee after he runs out of Sopor Pies.

Edit

Which Joker. The original jewel thief, The Dark Knight Joker, or the Joker from the earlier film.

Also the character could be played as kind of directionless. Going out to fight goblins because that what his buddies are doing. "Oh? They've been killing people, that's nice." (Quote not from anywhere)

Uh, none of those, the one from the Animated Series voiced by Mark Hamill.

And what's Homestuck?

[tahu88810]

Edit: Misunderstood your first post.

What you've described comes off as NE to me. Since you sort of sway between chaotic and lawful in some points. You're definitely evil though

[Tiki Snakes]

I have one point of advice, and if you are to avoid Stupid Evil in all it's guises, it's worth remembering.

Don't Ignore the Consequences.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. I think I'll use that motivation. If he ever DOES make it to the top, there's going to be quite a cleaning out. :smallamused:

EDIT: No, tahu88810! I liked that motivation! It made more sense!!!

[Human Paragon 3]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree with addiction. If you want to play a character with a substance addiction, that's one thing, but you want to play an evil character, and although the two aren't mutually exclusive, they certainly aren't related in any real way.

However, addicts do have one thing in common with evil characters. It's a trait that I put into my evil characters and it works quite well. Evil characters, like all people, want something. The difference is, evil characters will do anything to get what they want. They can work with allies or double cross allies, or help somebody or kill somebody. They do whatever is necessary to meet their goal.

That's what I do anyway.

If you want to play a real psychopath, you'd probably be well served at looking up the actual traits of a psychopath.

Some of them are:

Gandiose sense of self worth
Manipulative
Views the world as predators and prey
Thinks it's stupid not to take advantage of the weak
Trouble with authority (especially as a teen or youth)
Prone to boredom
Superficial charm
Lack of remorse
Failure to learn from past mistakes

[tahu88810]

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. I think I'll use that motivation. If he ever DOES make it to the top, there's going to be quite a cleaning out. :smallamused:

EDIT: No, tahu88810! I liked that motivation! It made more sense!!!

Well, $#@% now it's gone D:

Glad I could be of help though. If you're the type to watch movies/read books in order to get into character for a game, parts of the narration in the (movie version) of Fight Club came to mind while I was writing all that.

[Raz_Fox]

I think in his spare time he's either high, which makes him feel so good he doesn't feel the need to kill, or experimenting on animals to vent his urges so he doesn't do it to people.

Suggestion: give him a lovable quirk of collecting pets. Today, he's got a parrot, isn't it such a pretty parrot? But tomorrow, he's got a cat, and he gets shifty whenever someone asks him about the parrot, just saying that it was a "dumb parrot" and that it got away from him. But you'll be a good kitty, won't you? Such a good little kitty.

And in his basement, there's a dissected parrot, next to last week's little doggy, next to the pseudodragon with the wings ripped off from last month...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Honestly Raz_Fox, that's a good suggestion, but one that makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

Oh, who am I kidding, this entire CONCEPT makes me uncomfortable, and it's hypocritical to complain about torturing animals when he'll torture people just as easily, but still!

[Cerlis]

I think two things that would make it unique and interesting is that, like you said you dont have self control. Maybe hes bipolar or something simular and he cant control his rage. So when this whole "turn on his friends" things happens its usually fisticuffs or hurtful comments. However there are people out there that he doesnt value, who arent his friends. I can imagine through my own experience the IMMENSE feeling of relief and the lust of power of being able to vent your frustration on someone and "knowing" that there is no consequence that you need care about.

Imagine your character getting frustrated with someone, getting very angry and attacking them. And he realizes that this is not some person he cares about, and if he already has them at a disadvantage he has them at his mercy. He can finally "let go" he doesnt need to struggle against himself or condemn himself. He can torture and degrade this person who slighted or wronged him however much he wants and as long as he doesnt get caught there are no consquences.

Now imagine after the heat of the moment when he calms down and is covered in blood his higher mind returns and he sees though there is no consequences that he lost total control (as opposed to partial control with his friends). He spends the next morning or night trying to hunt down a rare herb he used to take as a young man to calm his nerves. A rare plant, or it could be Opium. Something to calm his nerves.

So its not so much him craving the drug for the drugs sake, but being addicted to the only thing that he sees as making him sane.


----------------

p.s. i'm not sure if you'd have to refluff anything or switch out a few feats or themes but i think that one prestige class where you gain sudden strike damage and the ability to treat fearful people as flatfooted (the Avenger or whatever its called) would be great flavor in the heat of battle for this character. definately the feel of someone who loses control and makes someone suffer in the heat of battle.

[dsmiles]

Honestly Raz_Fox, that's a good suggestion, but one that makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

Oh, who am I kidding, this entire CONCEPT makes me uncomfortable, and it's hypocritical to complain about torturing animals when he'll torture people just as easily, but still!
I know the feeling. I'm distinctly uncomfortable playing good-aligned characters, but so many people want to play 'heroic-good-guy' type campaigns.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

p.s. i'm not sure if you'd have to refluff anything or switch out a few feats or themes but i think that one prestige class where you gain sudden strike damage and the ability to treat fearful people as flatfooted (the Avenger or whatever its called) would be great flavor in the heat of battle for this character. definately the feel of someone who loses control and makes someone suffer in the heat of battle.
You're thinking of the Avenging Executioner from Complete Scoundrel. While appropriate thematically, this is a Pathfinder game.

[AlexTheGreat]

You're thinking of the Avenging Executioner from Complete Scoundrel. While appropriate thematically, this is a Pathfinder game.
And why is this a problem? :smallconfused:

[Raz_Fox]

Raz_Fox, that's a good suggestion, but one that makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

I am so tempted to sig this.

Yeah, if it makes you uncomfortable, don't do it. But think outside the box, because that's where madness is. Ask 'why'. Why does he act the way he does, and what can you do to accentuate the subtle wrongness of the character?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I am so tempted to sig this.

Yeah, if it makes you uncomfortable, don't do it. But think outside the box, because that's where madness is. Ask 'why'. Why does he act the way he does, and what can you do to accentuate the subtle wrongness of the character?

Go ahead and sig it, if you wish. And thanks to tahu88810, I think I might have an answer. He blames everybody else for his problems and he lashes out at people through torture if he thinks he can get away with it. If they're too well-protected, or the consequences for doing so would come back to bite him, he holds back and mentally vows to get them some other time. He may not have a specific "hit-list," since he'd basically be adding everyone except his friends to it, but he's not stupid enough to go knifing hookers in dark alleyways every week.

[AugustNights]

When playing evil characters, I find it makes them seem more nuanced if they have a very concise justification for their actions.

So an alchemist addict...

Addiction. We all have our addictions, and we'll all commit whatever sin, crime, or act of 'heroism' to get it. Some it's love, for others it's pride, others turn to their Gods, and call out things like "virtue," what is virtue? Doing whatever you can to get a God's approval? Slay a thousand men for the name of Pelor (or Pathinder equivalent) , and you're a Saint. Kill a man for love, and your a tragic hero. Me? I rob an old woman for my humble addiction and I'm a criminal? And you call that justice? Abyss, man, my addiction has far less lives, suffering, and pain behind its name, than any silly lie like love or Pelor... or pride. And further, mine is no lie. It's immediate. It's raw. It's here in my hand. So I ask you, paladin, what have you done for your fix?

The justifications don't need to be perfect, in fact, a slight flaw in them makes them more interesting.

Further, as a drug addict, freak on a leash approach, the Alchemist doesn't need money for those sort of things, it has class features to cover your addictions! You spells are formulas! What's the difference between a physical-mental enhancing alchemical substance and a drug? Nothing, really. When any mind or body changing substance that is abused, becomes drug abuse. Perfect reasoning with an Alchemist.
Also, a fantastic cover.

"What? Why am I carrying guano, imported dragon's-breath, and dried gorgon tears? I'm a simple alchemist my friend... an apothecary of sorts."

Further, as an alchemist and an addict, you can work the dealing angle. Make some scratch to buy more supplies to get more fixes. As an evil character you don't care who you sell it to, so long as they've got the money you've got what they need (but not from your own personal stash, of course.)

[Drakefall]

This won't really be a direct answer to your question, but I am in the process of developing the personality of a second character I will soon be bringing into the LARP I play in as an alternate to my main character.

Now, like you, I am a fan of the good alignment. My current character can be described as a neutral good healer. I've never played an evil character outside of a one shot before and trying to make one that isn't stereotypically evil "WAagaAAaghAAHH", but rather an actual person who just happens to be evil has been a little daunting.

The character in question will be a desecrated, elf assassin rogue. Desecration in the setting is yucky black lines that is the stuff of chaos itself which infects people and is associated with the main villains of the setting. Sooo... sounds like a stereotypically CE character concept right? Well I didn't want that. I want NE, so lets make this work.

Firstly, I decided that my character in no way serves anything that is evil and doesn't commit evil for the lulz. This is the province of worshippers of evil gods and stupid evulz characters. My character has very little in his life, he's the son of a whore who sold him into slavery at a young age. So as you can imagine he's pretty bitter. However, he has a foster father, and coincidently, a foster family. They are the one good thing in his life and he'll do anything to protect them. Murder? Torture? It's all easily within his capability if chooses to. He doesn't particularly want to murder and kill, though he does have violent tendencies a la his desecration, but he also doesn't mind committing such acts. He doesn't find them repulsive, and they can sometimes be fun if often also bothersome.

To this I added a streak of vigilantism. As a previous slave he abhors slavery and as a desecrated individual he hates seeing other desecrated being attacked or abused simply because they had the misfortune of getting infected.

So what I've created here is a character who is indifferent to morality (being evil really just because he's happened to commit a lot more evil acts than good ones), but has two strong ethical beliefs, namely protecting and remaining loyal to his family and standing up for certain minorities... albeit in a subtle, stabby way. This way he has people and beliefs which he cares about and therefore motivation as a character while still being easily capable of unsavoury acts. Throw in the sometimes-evil-craziness-inducing chaos in his blood and he's good to go, and I expect to have a lot of fun for him.

Comparing this to your character, I can see they're actually somewhat similar. Both lack morals, but don't do evil just to do evil. Both have individuals they care about (In my case family, in yours your friends, which might as well be your family). Both have reasons to freak out and kill people (Desecration on my side, mental instability on yours). You also have your addiction to play with (which could very well be to any and all narcotics so you can start out cheaply with whatever your setting's version of pot is and work your way up to magical heroine and powdered dragon horn as the game progresses).

So my advice is simply to pick out the few things which your character believes strongly in. Your friends, advancing in the thieves guild and your addiction for instance. Place them in order of most to least important. Ask yourself questions such as: can you put aside your addiction to help your buddies or for your own ambitions? Now once you have those in order, just make sure to always keep them in mind, play your character's personality and don't give a fig about whether something is moral or not (To you, protecting your friends is the right thing to do, so what if you have to murder a couple of paladins to do it. You'll throw your own life away for them, so you can throw away other people's even more easily). Oh, and don't do anything obviously stupid and suicidal unless, y'know it's really cool or you're just that high.:smalltongue:


Gah! Wall of text! Hope it helps.:smallsmile:

[Tiki Snakes]

I can't help feel that the inclusion of the torture angle, animal or human, seems to be over-egging it a little to be quite honest.
Barely restrained psychopath speaks of 'hot' action, sudden furious urges.
Torture is cold, slow and malicious.

Are you sure it belongs? It almost seems like you've included it in the character more because it's a really evil thing to do than because it flows from the characterisation.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

When playing evil characters, I find it makes them seem more nuanced if they have a very concise justification for their actions.

So an alchemist addict...

Addiction. We all have our addictions, and we'll all commit whatever sin, crime, or act of 'heroism' to get it. Some it's love, for others it's pride, others turn to their Gods, and call out things like "virtue," what is virtue? Doing whatever you can to get a God's approval? Slay a thousand men for the name of Pelor (or Pathinder equivalent) , and you're a Saint. Kill a man for love, and your a tragic hero. Me? I rob an old woman for my humble addiction and I'm a criminal? And you call that justice? Abyss, man, my addiction has far less lives, suffering, and pain behind its name, than any silly lie like love or Pelor... or pride. And further, mine is no lie. It's immediate. It's raw. It's here in my hand. So I ask you, paladin, what have you done for your fix?

The justifications don't need to be perfect, in fact, a slight flaw in them makes them more interesting.

Further, as a drug addict, freak on a leash approach, the Alchemist doesn't need money for those sort of things, it has class features to cover your addictions! You spells are formulas! What's the difference between a physical-mental enhancing alchemical substance and a drug? Nothing, really. When any mind or body changing substance that is abused, becomes drug abuse. Perfect reasoning with an Alchemist.
Also, a fantastic cover.

"What? Why am I carrying guano, imported dragon's-breath, and dried gorgon tears? I'm a simple alchemist my friend... an apothecary of sorts."

Further, as an alchemist and an addict, you can work the dealing angle. Make some scratch to buy more supplies to get more fixes. As an evil character you don't care who you sell it to, so long as they've got the money you've got what they need (but not from your own personal stash, of course.)
This sounds like a great motive rant too. Does it mesh well with the sort of "me against the world" mentality that I'm thinking of pursuing?

I can't help feel that the inclusion of the torture angle, animal or human, seems to be over-egging it a little to be quite honest.
Barely restrained psychopath speaks of 'hot' action, sudden furious urges.
Torture is cold, slow and malicious.

Are you sure it belongs? It almost seems like you've included it in the character more because it's a really evil thing to do than because it flows from the characterisation.
You're right. It's because I don't really know how to do an evil character. For me, evil comes in three main flavors: Torture, rape, and indiscriminate slaughter. I won't touch the second or third ones with an eleven-foot pole, so that left the first one. Remove that angle and he really seems a lot more neutral, just a man looking for a fix. And without it, how do I justify his Vivisectionist class features?

[Analytica]

Maybe causing pain isn't actually the point? If the character is well and truly insane, perhaps sometimes the urge comes to seek out the love of others. That love lies in the breast, or in the head, so it's said. He cuts and cuts, trying to find it, but never does...

[Tiki Snakes]

You're right. It's because I don't really know how to do an evil character. For me, evil comes in three main flavors: Torture, rape, and indiscriminate slaughter. I won't touch the second or third ones with an eleven-foot pole, so that left the first one. Remove that angle and he really seems a lot more neutral, just a man looking for a fix. And without it, how do I justify his Vivisectionist class features?

Chaotic Stupid et all come in three distinct flavours, Torture, Rape and Indiscriminate Slaughter. (As well as Inevitable Betrayal). Unsubtle, unsatisfying, shortsighted.

Look at the Dark Knight Joker. He does all manner of horrible things, but there is always, always a purpose. Even the seemingly random things drive towards something, towards what he wants.

Re-reading your first blurb again, here's a thought. The difference between a neutral person following the roughly same course of action that you described and a truly Evil one, is that the neutral one simply does it. He may have no qualms at all about it, but at the end of the day, it's about getting by.
The Evil person delights in it.

Ignore the things that seem like required acts to justify the alignment. The list of genuine psychopath traits Gaurd Juris posted are gold-dust, much more useful. Decide what your character wants, and pursue it with a grin and a complete lack of moral and ethical worry.
If you are worrying about whether you are taking the appropriate type of action to justify your alignment and you are good, then that's fine. If you are worrying about your actions in that way when you're evil, you are doing it wrong.

[hamishspence]

Re-reading your first blurb again, here's a thought. The difference between a neutral person following the roughly same course of action that you described and a truly Evil one, is that the neutral one simply does it. He may have no qualms at all about it, but at the end of the day, it's about getting by.
The Evil person delights in it.


That said, a person might have an Evil alignment despite not "delighting in" their evil deeds.

You could have a character who has become evil through their deeds- but they hate what they do.

[Noneoyabizzness]

My input, best example of neutral evil given was Goodfellas

henry is the idea example of self interest and ambition, but not the evil for evils sake sort of chaos. he has a degree of likability but in the end he murdered stole cheated then ratted out everyone to save himself.

the examples of good chaotic evil can go with joker, tony montana, Luther from The Warriors, all could fit the kinda game it sounds like.


the end result is if he is an addict trying to fight the addiction just to forward his end goal, neutral evil seems to be a good fit

[AugustNights]

If you are looking for a vivisection justification, I'd go with something like this...

I loaded it up with more Banshee's Scream and Dragon Drops than even a normal human being could survive. Its last conscious seconds of life were not scurrying in sewers and seeking refuge from tortuous city urchins, suffering the horrible sting of hunger. I swear the rat smiled as I removed its liver, it didn't even flinch. Torture? You call this torture? This is salvation, and I should hope when I go out, I can be as loaded up as that poor rat was. The Rat's death was going to occur, by some rat-catcher, or perhaps by a vile poison that would have taken ages to infect it, a slow painful death. Maybe a cat, that would have what? Eaten it? Then died of stomach ills? And what then? A corpse? Two? Would the world have changed? Not even an iota! You slay a goblin, its heroism. I remove its pain forever, and lead the rest of us towards discovery! I am that much closer to ending pain forever, and you dare call me monstrous?

Actually the desire to end pain, taken from a utilitarian standpoint becomes quite evil quite quick...

Now take the rat, and make it a human... a suffering one, a miserable one, a dying one. One human dies, 10,000 gain the benefit of never feeling pain again? So 20 humans die, pain is irradiated forever?
What's one more life of suffering, when you can free all humanity from such bonds? What's one more mistake, if it brings you closer to the Magnum Opus?

Reasonable once you leave souls and love at the door, and for this guy? Just another version of addiction those...

Of course, all that is not "Me against the world..."
Unless you mix in a bit of a tortured savior mentality.

I strive so very hard to remove the pain from your worthless meaningless maggoty lives, and how am I thanked? My lab assaulted by "men of the law," the Church calls my acts horrid, disgusting, foul, and what, evil?!? What is evil? I'll tell you what it is, it's forcing people to suffer for some distant and uncaring gods, why did they create us to suffer? Why do only so few receive the benefit of divine healing? The gods have the power to restore life, but they charge diamonds for their services? I spit in their direction. Law? Order? Ha! Its a business. Laws state my actions are illegal, nontaxable is more accurate! Well the world may struggle now, but when I finally discover the philosopher's fix, I'll take away her pain, and by all the other vices combined, she will thank me! They'll all thank me...

After all, Dr. Jekyll was trying to chemically "remove evil" (also note the extreme convenience to the Good Doctor of the victims "Mr. Hyde" selects to off... oh yes, definitely an "alter ego.")

I think it's most important to keep in mind, few evil beings truly see themselves as evil. Some yes, but many no.

[dsmiles]

I personally prefer the cold, detached psychopath who goes through the motions, as expressed in the Patrick Bateman character in American Psycho:

"There is an idea of a Patrick Bateman; some kind of abstraction. But there is no real me: only an entity, something illusory. And though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable... I simply am not there. "

"I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip."

"There are no more barriers to cross. All I have in common with the uncontrollable and the insane, the vicious and the evil, all the mayhem I have caused and my utter indifference toward it I have now surpassed. My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone, in fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape, but even after admitting this there is no catharsis, my punishment continues to elude me and I gain no deeper knowledge of myself; no new knowledge can be extracted from my telling. This confession has meant nothing."

[Randel]

Hi, I'm going to be playing in the same game (playing as a Sepentine bloodline sorceress) and figured I might put in my two cents.

1. Have a motivation, even if its stupid and petty. The being a drug attict thing could be a good one since that motivates you to do stuff. Sure, there may be people who kick puppies and torture hobos for giggles... but lets face it they are basically wasting time by doing that. Every hour you spend plotting your big puppy kicking caper is an hour you could be doing something better... like sit around the house eating cheetos or smoking pot.

A drug addict who likes inhaling stuff to get high has a reason to go out and get money to fuel his addiction, or he could get the ingredients, or get some really cheap crummy stuff to tide him over until he cna get some of the good stuff. If you're worried about being able to afford this stuff at first level then you can always try to use really cheap stuff to tide you over.

Actually, there is the Vision Toad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services#TOC-Toad-Vision) in the goods and services section that you can buy for 10 gp. It has psychoactive venom in its skin, I suppose you could try licking it or harvesting its mucus to get your fix.

Its kind of funny for me since I'm a serpentine sorceress and have a natural bite attack and venom. I can use my venom about seven times a day, its about as potent as black adder venom and I've been trying to think of a way to harvest it and sell it. I was looking at the toad while thinking of gathering some venomous animals to harvest venom from so me selling venom wouldn't seem suspicious (I mean, if I sell venom and have a vew black adders on hand then people would know it makes sense, if they find out I have fangs that produce the stuff then people would probably call me a freak).

So if you need a cheap kind of drug then you can buy a vision toad or two, feed and care for them, and spend your lonely afternoons licking the mucus off of them (which I'm sure can give you all sorts of interesting visions). Or if you think snake venom could be interesting (maybe invent some drug made of snake venom, alchohol, and a pinch of some kind of alchemic anti-toxin or something) I can provide you with venom (being the bestest buddy you have) and between the two of us we can probably mix up enough drugs to keep you entertained.

Of course, the 'evil' part comes in regarding how you pay for your drugs and especially what you do with your high. If you are a worshiper of the god of secrets and have been licking vision toads for a while then its to be expected that you could get some funky visions (maybe get a list of weird imagry and every time you use a hallucingenic drug you roll some d20s to see what stuff you see in your vision. If you get a vision that involves ducks, fire, diamonds, and local musical celebrity Justy Bayber then I'm sure your brain can come up with all sorts of ways to interpret it. Think of them as visions from your god and let the chaotic hallucinations in your toad-licking drug addled mind drive you on the rainbow powered rocketsled of evil!).


As for good and evil and how you could work on a team, I'm sure the others can work with you. You need drugs to keep the angry pixies from stealing your happy thoughts and the team needs you to do stuff for them. You don't have to needlessly torture hobos for their lunch money, you just need friends who will give you the happy juice in return for your help in kidnapping a little girl or pulling off a scam. You could be a washed up unmotivated guy who'd rater stay at home eating nachos... but you are forced to go out and commit crimes to fuel your addiction. Life can be one long boring chore marked by lazy afternoons of happy drug time and the occasional life-or-death struggle of pulling off crimes, stealing things, or killing people to fuel those aformentioned lazy afternoons.


And another idea for a question: What would your character do if he wasn't addicted to drugs? Really, if he has spent several years of his life doing horrible things to get gold, spending that gold on liquefied happiness, and spend those hours of happy time just sitting back and basking in the glow... then what would he do if suddenly he didn't need the drugs? Would he go around stabbing people for no reason? Save up his gold for retirement? Find something useful to do with his life? Or would he just go back to his drugs again?

Really, being a drug addict could be an interesting concept for an evil character because his condition can motivate him towards evil acts. He doesn't have to enjoy robbing people to fuel his addiction, he doesn't have to hate robbing people to fuel his addiction, he can be totally mellow and indifferent and not even care about the moral or ethical implications of him robbing people... he just needs the money to fuel his addiction (and its unlikely that many good aligned businesses would hire him if they felt his pay would go straight to buying drugs).


As for my character... I think she's mostly motivated by aquiring money, power, and cool toys. (have crafters fortune as one of my 1st level spells so she can craft weapons and stuff early on). Might start having her pick up some blasty spells later or maybe charm effects (not sure how Charm Person would work on a drug addict). She has dreams of becoming the ruler a major city and/or starting a noble house of sorcerers or whatnot.


But yeah, a villanous character just kind of needs a goal to strive for (no matter how petty or stupid) and be willing to do things to acheive that. Being a punch clock villain totally counts because the motivation is "paycheck".

[Dilb]

I suppose being a healer that refuses to treat people who can't afford to pay is out of the question?
"Jones, why exactly didn't you treat that orphan?"
"He couldn't afford it."
"It doesn't cost you anything to set a bone, Jones."
"It's the principle of the matter, I don't work for free. Besides, it won't kill him, he'll just have a crooked arm."

Or, you know, something else that isn't a gross caricature? I mean really, torture, rape, "indiscriminate" slaughter? Discriminating slaughter wouldn't be evil?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The idea is that he's driven himself crazy through the poisons and acids he's voluntarily ingested and exposed himself to.

[Randel]

The idea is that he's driven himself crazy through the poisons and acids he's voluntarily ingested and exposed himself to.

So, something like The Joker or Dr, Jekyl and Mr. Hyde?

[Rixx]

The root of evil as most people know it is a complete lack of empathy for others - a lot more that "torture, rape, and indiscriminate slaughter" can stem from this.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So, something like The Joker or Dr, Jekyl and Mr. Hyde?

EXACTLY. I've said before the idea behind this character was basically the Joker without the clown motif, and not being in charge of the gang.

[hamishspence]

The root of evil as most people know it is a complete lack of empathy for others - a lot more that "torture, rape, and indiscriminate slaughter" can stem from this.

Suppressing ones empathy for a particular subset of "others" might be what allows characters to "do evil" to them- and since doing evil tends to eventually lead to being evil- a character can gravitate to evil alignment without ever developing a widespread lack of empathy for others in general.

[Burner28]

Not really a problem- there's some room for "does evil on the orders of others" to be CE rather than LE- the character's Chaotic nature simply manifests itself in a different way.

Hmmm. Really?

[hamishspence]

It might manifest itself as whimsicality, an overall disrespect for authority in general- (they obey only those the respect, but they do so without questioning too much) and so on.

The "my country/master right or wrong" mentality, doesn't necessarily have to be completely confined to Lawful characters.

So- a character might have one lawful trait- a willingness to point their faith in a respected one and trust their judgement on what the correct thing to do is- and other traits that are strongly Chaotic- and be overall Chaotic-aligned.

[Darth Stabber]

Dexter Morgan (of both television and novel fame), is a decent model for an evil character.

To all outward appearances he's a good guy, and he works for the police, and yet he is constantly killing. Dexter only kills those that he feel escaped justice, but you can change the victim MO as you see fit. He is (generally), calm cool and collected, and has every angle of every kill figured out before he abducts his new playmate. He abducts them, straps them down, lets them know why their there, cuts their cheek for a blood slide (his trophies), and puts a knife through their heart. The whole thing is a ritual carefully crafted over years of practice, designed to be both clean and satisfy his viscious urges. And while this is going on he is a family man with wife and kids. Great example of likable LE. If you change the victim requirements, and loosen up the required level of research and planning, you can easily move to NE (though i doubt this archetype would work for CE).

[hamishspence]

Cross Dexter with V from V For Vendetta, and you might have a closer CE model- a "foe of tyranny" who goes to extreme lengths.

[Ganurath]

Mark Hamill's Joker crossed with 12th Squad Captain Mayuri Kurotsuchi from Bleach. Such exquisite poisons and toys to play with... Which one shall I use to make that snoring gentleman over there suffer for his nuisance noise? This one could give him explosive diarhea, but this one could generate a literal version of that effect. Oh, heck, I'll just whip up a cocktail of suffering and see what happens.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Mark Hamill's Joker crossed with 12th Squad Captain Mayuri Kurotsuchi from Bleach. Such exquisite poisons and toys to play with... Which one shall I use to make that snoring gentleman over there suffer for his nuisance noise? This one could give him explosive diarhea, but this one could generate a literal version of that effect. Oh, heck, I'll just whip up a cocktail of suffering and see what happens.

Now THAT'S MORE LIKE IT!!! Though I've never watched Bleach, so I've not idea who this Captain guy is. :smallconfused:

[Ganurath]

His page on the relevant wikia (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Mayuri). He's a magitech mad scientist and chemist who's always looking for a new way to hurt people, and would give Batman a run for his money in Crazy Prepared.