View Full Version : Dragon shaman don't know crap 'bout dragons
Darth Stabber
2011-05-31, 12:34 AM
So dragon shaman are listed in their fluff as avid studiers of dragons.
Knowing things about dragons requires a knowledge(arcana).
Knowledge(arcana) is not on their skill list, not even on any of the specific totems gives knowledge(arcana) as a class skill. So these shaman who get their power from understanding of dragons, couldn't tell you the difference between a green dragon and an oversized gecko! What the what?
Titanium Fox
2011-05-31, 12:35 AM
Personally I have a houserule that Knowlege (Arcana) is a class skill for Dragon Shamans.
Becuase IMO, that's idiotic that they don't have it.
Big Fau
2011-05-31, 12:37 AM
So dragon shaman are listed in their fluff as avid studiers of dragons.
Knowing things about dragons requires a knowledge(arcana).
Knowledge(arcana) is not on their skill list, not even on any of the specific totems gives knowledge(arcana) as a class skill. So these shaman who get their power from understanding of dragons, couldn't tell you the difference between a green dragon and an oversized gecko! What the what?
Got a better one for you: Jade Phoenix Mage class skills.
holywhippet
2011-05-31, 12:40 AM
I didn't think they so much studied dragons as revered and worshipped them.
Benly
2011-05-31, 12:46 AM
Would you really want your dragon shaman to learn that dragons do not, in fact, emit a healing aura?
Kalaska'Agathas
2011-05-31, 12:55 AM
Would you really want your dragon shaman to learn that dragons do not, in fact, emit a healing aura?
Or, for example, weren't the inventors of sliced bread, central heating, or indoor plumbing?
Benly
2011-05-31, 01:06 AM
Or, for example, weren't the inventors of sliced bread, central heating, or indoor plumbing?
I hear dragons poo diamonds.
Bhaakon
2011-05-31, 01:12 AM
I hear dragons poo diamonds.
Only after they've eaten larger diamonds.
Kalaska'Agathas
2011-05-31, 01:39 AM
Only after they've eaten larger diamonds.
Larger Diamonds are of course a staple of the Dragon diet, along with sheep, cabbage, and tea, which they have been known to brew in lakes heated by their fire breath.
Big Fau
2011-05-31, 01:41 AM
and tea, which they have been known to brew in lakes heated by their fire breath.
Big enough dragons just use the whole plant, since it's easier than picking the leaves.
Safety Sword
2011-05-31, 01:43 AM
I hear dragons poo Gnomes.
Fix'd? I'll give you message too short!
Thurbane
2011-05-31, 02:14 AM
So dragon shaman are listed in their fluff as avid studiers of dragons.
Knowing things about dragons requires a knowledge(arcana).
Knowledge(arcana) is not on their skill list, not even on any of the specific totems gives knowledge(arcana) as a class skill. So these shaman who get their power from understanding of dragons, couldn't tell you the difference between a green dragon and an oversized gecko! What the what?
FWIW, this got specifically addressed in the PHB2 errata file. Knowledge (arcana) is a class skill for all colors of dragon shaman.
Now, if only they'd done the same for Favored Souls and Knowledge (religion)...
"Yeah, I get all these spells and stuff from some big dude up in the sky. Dunno much about him though". :smallannoyed:
Heliomance
2011-05-31, 02:31 AM
That one may well be by design - being a favoured (iPod autocorrect tried to turn that into Gabonese and then cabooses) soul means a god chose you, rather than the other way around. He or she didn't necessarily ask you about it first.
The one that always amused me was Horizon Walkers not getting Kn:The Planes.
I think my favorite wacky skill list is the Master Inquisitive, from ECS.
They're not missing anything in particular, but they have 6 + INT skills. And only 8 class skills. None of which are those nice wildcards like Craft or Profession or Speak Language. And the fluff is that they're real smart guys. So a Master Inquisitive who gets +3 skill points per level (anyone with 16 INT, or a human with 14 INT) is required to take cross-class skills.
I also find it annoying that Knights don't get Diplomacy.
That one may well be by design - being a favoured (iPod autocorrect tried to turn that into Gabonese and then cabooses) soul means a god chose you, rather than the other way around. He or she didn't necessarily ask you about it first.
The one that always amused me was Horizon Walkers not getting Kn:The Planes.
And yet, your sorcerous bloodline (or just your raw awesomeness) didn't necessarily ask you if you wanted to be a Sorcerer, but Sorcs still get K: Arcana. And WotC kind of hates Sorcerers a little bit. Just sayin'.
Hazzardevil
2011-05-31, 04:54 AM
What amuses me is how Wu Jen know everything despite them never likely studying The Planes and Religion.
That reminds me, I once explained the knowledge skills to my brother and then told him about knowledge the planes skill.
He now thinks that angels and demons are Aeroplanes.
suszterpatt
2011-05-31, 05:05 AM
What amuses me is how Wu Jen know everything despite them never likely studying The Planes and Religion.
That reminds me, I once explained the knowledge skills to my brother and then told him about knowledge the planes skill.
He now thinks that angels and demons are Aeroplanes.
Pray that he never learns about mariliths, lest he starts making "snakes on a plane" jokes.
Big Fau
2011-05-31, 05:18 AM
Pray that he never learns about mariliths, lest he starts making "snakes on a plane" jokes.
He can make that joke anyway thanks to Yuan-Ti.
TroubleBrewing
2011-05-31, 06:20 AM
He can make that joke anyway thanks to Yuan-Ti.
I didn't think they were Outsiders.
KillianHawkeye
2011-05-31, 06:24 AM
I hear dragons poo diamonds.
Only white dragons. :smallwink:
hamishspence
2011-05-31, 06:37 AM
I didn't think they were Outsiders.
They're not- but in Ghostwalk, they have a demiplane of their own called Coil.
TroubleBrewing
2011-05-31, 06:44 AM
Ah.
I guess "I'm tired of these gorram snakes on this gorram demi-plane" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
Tvtyrant
2011-05-31, 06:51 AM
Ah.
I guess "I'm tired of these gorram snakes on this gorram demi-plane" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
I don't know, it has a nice ring to it.
TroubleBrewing
2011-05-31, 06:57 AM
Well sure, but everything has a better sound with more Firefly in it. :smalltongue:
Thurbane
2011-05-31, 07:12 AM
That one may well be by design - being a favoured (iPod autocorrect tried to turn that into Gabonese and then cabooses) soul means a god chose you, rather than the other way around. He or she didn't necessarily ask you about it first.
Yeah. maybe. It still seems weird, though, that after being touched by the divine, the class doesn't give you the option (barring one online ACF) to actually learn about where your powers are coming from without spending cross class skills. It also makes it unnecessarily hard, using the class as written, to get into 90% of divine PrCs. I personally believe it was an omission from when the class first appeared in Miniatures Handbook, and was reprinted in CD.
Dragons are those mind reading jellyfish headed things that eat brains, right?
Or am I thinking of something else? :smallconfused:
Greenish
2011-05-31, 07:32 AM
Dragons are those mind reading jellyfish headed things that eat brains, right?
Or am I thinking of something else? :smallconfused:Yeah, you're thinking "octopus".
Psyren
2011-05-31, 08:23 AM
This thread is highly amusing.
And I never noticed that about Favored Souls! Someone should be bonked on the head for that one.
Greenish
2011-05-31, 08:30 AM
Why not a squid?Because illithid head isn't elongated enough to be said to resemble a squid, in my opinion.
Darth Stabber
2011-05-31, 08:38 AM
This thread is highly amusing.
And I never noticed that about Favored Souls! Someone should be bonked on the head for that one.
And they even had a chance to fix it when they reprinted in CDiv, that's gotta count double.
WotC employee "We're going to reprint Favored Soul in Complete Divine, do you need me to go over it to be sure it's ready to print again"
WotC boss "what, no we proofed it for Miniatures Handbook, why bother?"
To be fair if some one at WotC was bonked on the head every time they did something silly like that, the city of Renton, Washington would be the most brain damaged city in america, possibly the world.
Now that I think about it, I kinda like the idea of favored souls being clueless dupes.
Because illithid head isn't elongated enough to be said to resemble a squid, in my opinion.
So it's a squid with a stubby head. :smalltongue:
FMArthur
2011-05-31, 08:58 AM
Squids don't have the fearsome powers of mental control that octopuses are known for.
But they're so much more dignified! :cool:
Greenish
2011-05-31, 09:22 AM
But they're so much more dignified! :cool:You want dignified, you want fearsome mental powers, you want cuttlefish.
Cuttlefish>Dragons!
/thread
Now that I think about it, I kinda like the idea of favored souls being clueless dupes.
I did once have a campaign where the players were going to run into a gnome who was a Favored Soul and didn't know it, mostly because good ol' Garl thought it'd be lulzy. The kicker, of course, is that Vancian magic was totally illegal in that world, mainly because it always (always) caused horrible and bizarre backlash in a random area around the caster (so the caster rarely suffered, but folks around him usually did). So he wasn't just some harmless old gnome who occasionally had weird effects following him around. He was a gnome who was inherently dangerous to the state. Garl's kind of a prick sometimes.
Unfortunately, that particular arc never got that far, but oh well.
Shade Kerrin
2011-05-31, 08:47 PM
What amuses me is how Wu Jen know everything despite them never likely studying The Planes and Religion.
Must counter this one. A fair amount of Wu Jen-unique spells revolve around spirits, which is defined as including incorporeal undead(Kn-Rel) and Elementals(Kn-Pla). Thus, they would have reason to know of these things.
Of course, I find it a bit silly that only religion lets you know about undead, but that's neither here nor there.
Safety Sword
2011-05-31, 08:53 PM
... the city of Renton...
Should be called the city of Retcon, IMO.
The Glyphstone
2011-05-31, 09:01 PM
I did once have a campaign where the players were going to run into a gnome who was a Favored Soul and didn't know it, mostly because good ol' Garl thought it'd be lulzy. The kicker, of course, is that Vancian magic was totally illegal in that world, mainly because it always (always) caused horrible and bizarre backlash in a random area around the caster (so the caster rarely suffered, but folks around him usually did). So he wasn't just some harmless old gnome who occasionally had weird effects following him around. He was a gnome who was inherently dangerous to the state. Garl's kind of a prick sometimes.
Unfortunately, that particular arc never got that far, but oh well.
Aren't Favored Souls spontaneous casters - i.e., non-Vancian?
Thurbane
2011-05-31, 09:03 PM
Some people call 3.5 spontaneous casters "Vancian" because they still rely on spell slots and spell levels. Traditionally, though, it refers more to casters who memorize.
Yeah, I was using the word in the sense of "anyone with spell slots." It was a fun framing device to convince my group to try incarnum/psionics/ToB/etc.
qoalabear
2011-05-31, 11:51 PM
Now parrots (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2007/10/23/episode-910-the-animal-kingdom/), on the other hand, are huge leathery eating machines with wings and quite the conversationalists too. You've got your fire parrot, your ice parrot, your acid parrot, your swamp parrot, your metallic parrots, your prismatic parrots, the great horned parrot hatchling, your thunder lizard parrot, your parro-liches, your shadow parrots, your tien yingwu (them oriental celestial parrots, dontcha know), and...
Divide by Zero
2011-05-31, 11:55 PM
What can a parrot do if it's dead? It's clearly nailed to that perch.
Allanimal
2011-06-01, 12:05 AM
What can a parrot do if it's dead? It's clearly nailed to that perch.
If it wasn't nailed to the perch...
Wait, I better stop before this gets silly.
Benly
2011-06-01, 07:35 AM
If favored souls had K: Religion, they would start complaining about not getting domains or turning and nothing would get done.
Likewise, if dragon shamans had K: Arcana, they would know that dragons don't have mystical auras of awesomeness and lose their best powers in a crisis of faith.
Darth Stabber
2011-06-01, 08:51 AM
What can a parrot do if it's dead? It's clearly nailed to that perch.
That depends, though mechants do a lot of bludgeoning damage.
Maho-Tsukai
2011-06-01, 10:35 AM
Or, for example, weren't the inventors of sliced bread, central heating, or indoor plumbing?
The world-building project in my sig says otherwise. :smallamused:
Anyway, I would just houserule it to be a class skill for them and if your not the DM and your DM dose not allow that then there is always that feat that gives you knowldage skills as class skills(educated?) or that dragon magizene feat which allows you to choose two skills and make them class skills for you(and you get a +2 bonus in each to boot.)....So getting knowldage(Arcana) on your list without a houserule is easy enough if your willing to spend a feat.(in which case the latter could be better as you can pick up a broken skill(like Diplomacy) along with Knowldage(Arcana).)
Aron Times
2011-06-01, 02:56 PM
I hate how sorcerers only get Bluff and not the other social skills, and in 3.0, they didn't even get that! That's right, as originally designed, the charisma-based class didn't get any social skills.
The nice thing about 4e is that sorcerers get the whole package: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Insight (Sense Motive in 3.5).
MeeposFire
2011-06-01, 03:00 PM
Actually doesn't Dragon magic have alternate features for dragons to get draconic auras by trading in spells or something?
Lord.Sorasen
2011-06-01, 03:04 PM
If favored souls had K: Religion, they would start complaining about not getting domains or turning and nothing would get done.
Likewise, if dragon shamans had K: Arcana, they would know that dragons don't have mystical auras of awesomeness and lose their best powers in a crisis of faith.
If dragon shamans had Knoledge (Arcana) they'd be dragonfire adepts.
Also I've been curious. What is this phoenix mage or what have you? It was brought up in the thread as having an even stranger skillset.
It's a dual-progression arcane/martial class. It does not get any Knowledge skills, or Spellcraft.
Typewriter
2011-06-01, 03:41 PM
I hear dragons poo diamonds.
Why do you humans all want these? Don't you know they're just my sh... you know what? Nevermind, have one.
Big Fau
2011-06-01, 06:29 PM
Actually doesn't Dragon magic have alternate features for dragons to get draconic auras by trading in spells or something?
It has variant Frightful Presences, some of which are useful, the rest are too weak to use.
Akal Saris
2011-06-01, 07:28 PM
Knights not getting Diplomacy irked me too.
And for a core class, what's up with bards getting Listen but not Spot? Yeah, I know they have good hearing, but why can't they have good eyesight too?
One PF change I liked was giving Fighters the Knowledge (Dungeoneering) skill.
Thurbane
2011-06-01, 07:59 PM
I personally think that Fighters should have had Spot and Listen on their skills list. Seriously, in the core classes, is not the Fighter the stereotypical guard? The one expected to notice and engage monsters?
In actual fact, I think nearly all classes should get Spot & Listen, except perhaps the most studious types who spend most of their lives with heads buried in books.
FMArthur
2011-06-01, 08:02 PM
I think the most embarrassing lack on that skill list is Balance. Seriously, what kind of melee class would be bad at balance? And you'd think more iconic 'hero' classes would have Tumble, given its incredible proliference as a maneuver among fictional heroes.
Thurbane
2011-06-01, 09:07 PM
I think the most embarrassing lack on that skill list is Balance. Seriously, what kind of melee class would be bad at balance? And you'd think more iconic 'hero' classes would have Tumble, given its incredible proliference as a maneuver among fictional heroes.
Yeah, definitely agree that the Fighter skill list is just plain awful...if/when I do a "fighter fix" for my own game, it's definitely going to include expanding their skills, and boosting them to 4 points/level.
Big Fau
2011-06-01, 09:08 PM
I think the most embarrassing lack on that skill list is Balance. Seriously, what kind of melee class would be bad at balance? And you'd think more iconic 'hero' classes would have Tumble, given its incredible proliference as a maneuver among fictional heroes.
Balance clearly isn't a class skill for WotC employees.
Yeah, definitely agree that the Fighter skill list is just plain awful...if/when I do a "fighter fix" for my own game, it's definitely going to include expanding their skills, and boosting them to 4 points/level.
IMO, there are exactly three (3) classes that deserve 2+Int skill points per level. Those three are the Archivist, Psion, and Wizard. Anything else just doesn't deserve it.
Tibbaerrohwen
2011-06-01, 09:55 PM
Well sure, but everything has a better sound with more Firefly in it. :smalltongue:
Have to give this a +1.
IMO, there are exactly three (3) classes that deserve 2+Int skill points per level. Those three are the Archivist, Psion, and Wizard. Anything else just doesn't deserve it.
I just put any full caster on this list. Cleric, Favoured Souls, Sorcerers, etc. It just isn't fair to Rogue, Fighter, etc if full casters all had 4-6 +Int skill points. Otherwise they blow other classes out of the water even more. Then again, that keeps them away from the squids.
Kuulvheysoon
2011-06-02, 12:06 AM
Actually doesn't Dragon magic have alternate features for dragons to get draconic auras by trading in spells or something?
That they do. They can trade away a spell known (I THINK - not too sure on what they give up) and, in return, they get a draconic aura with a bonus equal to spell level/2, minimum 1.
Hahaha, assuming you're right about the spell known thing, the Dragon Shaman gains seven compared to the Sorcerer's forty-three.
Looks like they didn't even fool themselves into thinking those auras were any good.
Kris Strife
2011-06-02, 12:23 AM
Balance clearly isn't a class skill for WotC employees.
http://instantrimshot.com/
Allanimal
2011-06-02, 01:42 AM
Balance clearly isn't a class skill for WotC employees.
You win something for that. Cookie, internet, ...I'm not sure. Whatever it is, you won it.
Darth Stabber
2011-06-02, 07:23 AM
You win something for that. Cookie, internet, ...I'm not sure. Whatever it is, you won it.
Cookienet
It's like a series of tubes, filled with cookie dough.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.