Have you ever wanted to run a dragon PC? [3.5/Pathfinder]

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Here are the first ten pages of my revised Monster Progression rules. I'm working on several other creature types for the same treatment right now. Please let me know what you think.

http://www.kobolds-keep.net/smoke/Generic%20Dragon%20Progression.pdf

[YouLostMe]

This seems really good at low levels, and then very weak at high levels. I mean, as a capstone, you're not getting anything better than 30' blindsight, a level 6 spell, and immunity to a common energy type.

This thing wants scaling abilities. I mean, it's a dragon. It's looking for stat boosts, legit spellcasting like a sorcerer, and stuff like fearful presence and tail sweep for free. I mean, if it's possible for a Level 16 dragon's only ability to be a 40' swim speed, the class is missing some pizazz.

I would recommend looking over:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=62793
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=148044
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/True_Dragon_(3.5e_Class)
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dragonblooded_(3.5e_Class)

All of those have some embodiment of popular dragon classes. You should totally draw your ideas from them.

[paddyfool]

Can I suggest having a look at Fantasy Craft? In that, you'd be quite free to play as a dragon from level 1.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

This seems really good at low levels, and then very weak at high levels. I mean, as a capstone, you're not getting anything better than 30' blindsight, a level 6 spell, and immunity to a common energy type.

This thing wants scaling abilities. I mean, it's a dragon. It's looking for stat boosts, legit spellcasting like a sorcerer, and stuff like fearful presence and tail sweep for free. I mean, if it's possible for a Level 16 dragon's only ability to be a 40' swim speed, the class is missing some pizazz.

I would recommend looking over:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=62793
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=148044
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/True_Dragon_(3.5e_Class)
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dragonblooded_(3.5e_Class)

All of those have some embodiment of popular dragon classes. You should totally draw your ideas from them.

It already gets a scaling breath weapon and scaling flight. At level 20, their flight improves to 240'. Also, frightful presence IS free, it's just worthless at level 1.

Most of what you linked to is incomplete or poorly thought out. (EDIT: Ah, I see the wiki links were broken, those look better...) Anyways, by level 20 the dragon is either a Colossal-sized functional PC that can drop melee attacks on anything in the room (but with low AC for balance,) or a Small-sized firebreather who can outgun a warlock. It also has excellent utility, and might make rogues jealous.

Sorcerer spellcasting is out of the question. Even the Eldritch Knight, which gets spellcasting and d10 hit dice with hardly any class features at (what I figure is) its level -2. Maybe I could give it sorcerer spellcasting at 1/2 its level starting at level 4. but all that does is make its utility value even crazier.

Doing the math, I've noticed that it does REALLY well against large groups of weak enemies, but relatively poorly against single, strong opponents (which is true of most any class that has any kind of AOE attack.) It's unfavorable to compare it to a fighter, it's a lot more like a monk with AOE specials.

What it really needs is options that let it fight strong opponents better. (EDIT: Got it. The next build will have an offensive option that lets it make ray attacks with the breath weapon dealing d8s of damage instead of d6s. No save means it WORKS against strong opponents. Now I just need to fix the melee damage to be on par with a monk.) The Big group should do this, but it doesn't right now. I'm still kibitzing over the math to see whether it would be worth giving it +1 natural armor and +2 Strength with every size increase.

Also, there are lots of different builds you can make with it. Some of the abilities are great, and some aren't worth it.


I think I'm going to offload most of the unimpressive abilities to be feats, and I'm considering ability score boosts (maybe insert them at ever level where a straight melee build starts to fall behind.)

Also, I've noticed that, at level 1, it CAN outdo a human fighter with a greatsword. I've changed the bite attack to be a secondary attack, which should address it without affecting late-game balance too badly (everyone's gonna take multiattack.)

Maybe +4 Str and 15d6 breath damage would work as the capstone ability

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Okay, I've updated it. What do you think of the capstone ability?

[Zaydos]

Don't see how it's making a warlock jealous.

Level 20 it's dealing 10d8 energy damage at a range of up to 240-ft, rerolling ones (+.5 average damage per die). Or 50 damage on average, assuming no energy resistance.

A warlock is dealing a little less damage (32.5) but has the same range and is forcing a Fort save against 2 negative levels per attack or Will save against being stunned (or just Acid damage to negate any SR which adds +14 to average damage over the next 2 rounds).

You could breathe in a line, the most awkward shape, and deal 40 damage (Reflex halves)

The warlock could hit every enemy within 20-ft. Or if he was close to an enemy use Eldritch Glaive to double or triple his damage.

This is just comparing it to warlock sans Hellfire Warlock or Chausable of Fell Power which raises the damage to 14d6 (with 1 level binder dip) or 11d6 respectively (average is 50 or 39.5), and ignoring other useful abilities of the warlock's (at-will invisibility).

With Metabreath feats you could make the warlock sad, but even then you're getting 80 or 60 damage 1/encounter (3 rounds without breathing means if all your offensive powers are invested in it you aren't doing much), and they can 3 encounters per day maximize their own damage as well.

Also on the colossal note not only does it make movement through dungeons difficult on you (a con) it leaves you at -3 to hit compared to a Warrior (+10 Str, -8 size penalty).

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Don't see how it's making a warlock jealous.

Level 20 it's dealing 10d8 energy damage at a range of up to 240-ft, rerolling ones (+.5 average damage per die). Or 50 damage on average, assuming no energy resistance.

A warlock is dealing a little less damage (32.5) but has the same range and is forcing a Fort save against 2 negative levels per attack or Will save against being stunned (or just Acid damage to negate any SR which adds +14 to average damage over the next 2 rounds).

You could breathe in a line, the most awkward shape, and deal 40 damage (Reflex halves)

The warlock could hit every enemy within 20-ft. Or if he was close to an enemy use Eldritch Glaive to double or triple his damage.

This is just comparing it to warlock sans Hellfire Warlock or Chausable of Fell Power which raises the damage to 14d6 (with 1 level binder dip) or 11d6 respectively (average is 50 or 39.5), and ignoring other useful abilities of the warlock's (at-will invisibility).

With Metabreath feats you could make the warlock sad, but even then you're getting 80 or 60 damage 1/encounter (3 rounds without breathing means if all your offensive powers are invested in it you aren't doing much), and they can 3 encounters per day maximize their own damage as well.

Also on the colossal note not only does it make movement through dungeons difficult on you (a con) it leaves you at -3 to hit compared to a Warrior (+10 Str, -8 size penalty).

Thanks for taking the time to look at different builds.

As long as it's not overpowered, I'm happy. I think the flight and other utility abilities make up for that. The breath weapon and natural attacks always let them deal consistent damage in a fight. I have to look at Draconomicon to see what kinds of feats they could qualify for.

Also, being colossal can be offset by either animal shape or humanoid shape. (Maybe I should make animal shape more useful and replace it with the beast shape spell...) I actually think it'd be pretty funny to have a dragon running around corridors in a fight trying to find a space big enough to pop back to full size. Or you could just do what Enlarge Person does, and say that they CAN grow to full size and fight in a confined space, but they're unable to move around.

I'm probably going to move on to do Undead next. I think Pathfinder characters are tough enough to allow all the type resistances from level 1.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Okay, the general consensus on this was that it was underpowered at high levels. I have revised the class so that all of the sense abilities are gained by level instead of with abilities, and many of the abilities have been made more powerful. I have also added several abilities that are only available starting at level 10. I also merged the Offensive and Defensive abilities, there's just one list now.

Coming up with high-level abilities for this progression has actually proved very difficult. If anyone has ideas, I would be happy to hear them.