Is The Lightning Mace/Aptitude Combo Broken?

[Hadessniper]

I started working on a TWF kukri crit-fisher build tonight only to discover the amazing combo Lightning Mace/Aptitude Kukri which lets you apply the Lightning Mace feat's ability of allowing you to roll an additional attack every time your attack falls within the weapons crit range to kukri as if they were maces.

The gaming I'm playing is level 8. Here's the build I hurriedly pulled together.

Feats:
H.Weapon Focus (light mace)
1.Two-Weapon Fighting
2.Improved Crit (kukri)
b1.Combat Reflexes
3.Lightning Mace

With the next three feats being
b2.Ironheart Aura
4.Stormguard Warrior
5.Robilar’s Gambit

Readied Maneuvers:
Moment of Perfect Mind
Action Before Thought
Iron Heart Surge
Lightning Recovery

Stances:
Blood in the Water
Punishing Stance

Items:
Icy Burst Aptitude Kukri
Aptitude Kukri
6k

I did two ten round sample encounters where I just did attacks and damages without any boosts other than blood in the water, getting an extra crit every time I roll in my threat, and rerolling a fumble no more than once ever two rounds. The average damage against a foe with an AC of 25 in the first encounter was 32.4 the second coming to 48.3 the total average coming out to 40.45 damage a round. I hit the threat range without confirming quite a lot, and with the way Blood in the Water works if I hit a good string of rolls early I could get the damage to increase quite a bit quicker.


Would you consider this to be excessively broken in a party with an artificer and a druid?

[Eldan]

Not really. What a good Lightning Kukri build does is, essentially, kill an enemy if it gets two full attacks off. Which, in all likelihood, means they should be dead anyway.

You first have to reach an enemy, then get through his buffs, past possible miss chances and mirror images which start to come in at this level...

[Hadessniper]

Not really. What a good Lightning Kukri build does is, essentially, kill an enemy if it gets two full attacks off. Which, in all likelihood, means they should be dead anyway.

You first have to reach an enemy, then get through his buffs, past possible miss chances and mirror images which start to come in at this level...

Yeah that's what I was thinking, although god help anyone who got into a prolonged military action against one. I imagine if you dropped improved crit in favor of keen weapons, picked up power attack, then cleave and great cleave a single Blood in the Water Lightning Kukri build could pretty easily wipe out a melee based army by himself.

[Eldan]

True, but so could, say, a warmage with reserve feats, a flying warlock with area blasts, or a normal wizard with some time investment. Melee based armies go down to just about everything in D&D.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Here ya go. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871762/Abusing_the_Aptitude_Weapon_Enhancement) Combine Lightning Maces with Roundabout Kick (also CW) and every crit gets you two extra attacks.

[Diarmuid]

There's no way in hack you're picking up Imp Crit at 2nd level in any build, just FYI.

[Forged Fury]

There's no way in hack you're picking up Imp Crit at 2nd level in any build, just FYI.
Or Robillar's Gambit at 5th.

Unless you've got a homebrewed base class that starts with a BAB of +8 or so.

[gallagher]

Or Robillar's Gambit at 5th.

Unless you've got a homebrewed base class that starts with a BAB of +8 or so.

didnt you know, humans, among other things, start with a +10 BAB due to being so versatile. in order to do that, however, they must lost their ability to stand on one leg

[Darth Stabber]

didnt you know, humans, among other things, start with a +10 BAB due to being so versatile. in order to do that, however, they must lost their ability to stand on one leg

I keep forgetting about those alternate abilities from "Races of Normal"

[Divide by Zero]

didnt you know, humans, among other things, start with a +10 BAB due to being so versatile. in order to do that, however, they must lost their ability to stand on one leg

Really? I just traded my ability to rhyme on purpose.

[JaronK]

The Lightning Mace thing is only really powerful if you've got it set to go infinite. Anything less and it's just a fun mechanic for people who like a little more chaos. And even if it does go infinite, it's not broken on melee weapons... the ability to kill all enemies in melee range with a full attack is hardly new or special. Chargers have been doing it for ages. It's just a particularly stylish way to do it.

JaronK

[Darth Stabber]

Now if you combine it with a totemist//barbarian/bear warrior with an amulet of natural weapons set to keen and aptitude, and include the soulmeld to increase natural weapon crit range, your can televise your own "will it blend D&D edition". Seriously, don't breathe this.

[JaronK]

Barbarian 7 in Cityscape has an ACF that increases crit range by 1. With Lightning Mace, Roundabout Kick, and Aptitude Kukris, along with Improved Critical and the Eviscerator line of feats from Libris Mortis, you can crit on a 13-20 (or 14-20, depending on interpretation IIRC) and every crit scares every enemy in the area. That can be all kinds of fun.

JaronK

[Eldan]

Hmm. Could a Bloodstorm blade use this at range?

[JaronK]

I don't see why not. Blade Storm could be incredible this way, though the wording might prevent bonus attacks... not quite sure.

JaronK

[Hadessniper]

Or Robillar's Gambit at 5th.

Unless you've got a homebrewed base class that starts with a BAB of +8 or so.

Not Robillar's Gambit at 5th level but as my 5th natural feat at 12th level. The improved critical was a mistake I forgot about the BAB requirement on it. I'll switch it out for power attack.

I mostly made this thread to show my DM in case he balked at the combo being broken, not to see how to make a character to best abuse the trick.

[Godskook]

Take it for what you will, but Lightning Maces *AND* aptitude weapons were banned in Test of Spite last year.

[Veyr]

Critical builds are kind of interesting in that they aren't really a good idea unless you go all in — but once you've got all the pieces together, the synergy is very strong.

But I think it was best put by Eldan: most of the time, scoring a Full Attack is probably going to mean death for the target anyway...

[Coidzor]

Boomerang Daze (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050408b&page=6) + Aptitude weapons is, I think fairly likely to just be broken right off the bat, whereas Lightning Maces + Aptitude weapon you have to work to make broken, since even an expanded crit range isn't guaranteeing an infinite loop until the opponent is dead.

[JaronK]

Boomerang Daze doesn't work with Aptitude Weapons, because Boomerang Daze works with two kinds of weapons and Aptitude only applies to feats that specify a single weapon.

JaronK

[Godskook]

Boomerang Daze doesn't work with Aptitude Weapons, because Boomerang Daze works with two kinds of weapons and Aptitude only applies to feats that specify a single weapon.

JaronK

Sadly, no. You're reading the prerequisites. The effects work with any feat that "affect the use of a particular type of weapon".

[JaronK]

Sadly, no. You're reading the prerequisites. The effects work with any feat that "affect the use of a particular type of weapon".

Right, but the examples make it clear that "particular type of weapon" means something like "longswords." Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization are the examples.

JaronK

[The Glyphstone]

Right, but the examples make it clear that "particular type of weapon" means something like "longswords." Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization are the examples.

JaronK

But how does that reading not completely invaliate the use of Lightning maces on anything except actual light maces, with all the examples being a variable-target feat? If Lightning Maces can be applied to any weapon with Aptitude to begin with, so should Boomerang Daze (though I personally think the answer to both should be no).

[Radar]

Boomerang Daze got me thinking:
Boomerang Daze + Boomerang Ricochet + Palm Throw + Dragonfire Inspiration = interesting battlefield control build. Was there also a way to trip with a thrown weapon? Would really help for those pesky creatures immune to Daze.

[Godskook]

Boomerang Daze got me thinking:
Boomerang Daze + Boomerang Ricochet + Palm Throw + Dragonfire Inspiration = interesting battlefield control build. Was there also a way to trip with a thrown weapon? Would really help for those pesky creatures immune to Daze.

Out of 5 monster manuals, how about you leave those 4 monsters to someone else in the party, eh?

[JaronK]

But how does that reading not completely invaliate the use of Lightning maces on anything except actual light maces, with all the examples being a variable-target feat? If Lightning Maces can be applied to any weapon with Aptitude to begin with, so should Boomerang Daze (though I personally think the answer to both should be no).

No, the point here is that Lightning Mace only applies to one type of weapon (Light Maces). Hand Crossbow Focus only applies to one type of weapon (Hand Crossbows). Roundabout Kick only applies to one type of weapon (Unarmed Strikes). So all of these work with Aptitude, which lets you apply any feat that applies to one type of weapon to the weapon the enchantment is on. Variable target isn't listed as a rule (though it should be). But one type is.

By comparison, Boomerang Daze works on two kinds of weapon (the two boomerang types). Piecing Weapon Mastery works on all piercing weapons. So neither of those feats work with Aptitude, most likely.

JaronK

[Greenish]

There's no way in hack you're picking up Imp Crit at 2nd level in any build, just FYI.Well, with a help of a higher level kensai… You wouldn't benefit from the feat anymore, but you could have it.

Without cheese, ECL 6 is the earliest you can get Imp. Crit, I believe, and even then only for limited weapons.
Barbarian 7 in Cityscape has an ACF that increases crit range by 1.Psychic Weapon Master increases the range by 2.

[Longcat]

Take it for what you will, but Lightning Maces *AND* aptitude weapons were banned in Test of Spite last year.

Well, ToS balances around 1vs1 PvP combat, not on your average cooperative style gaming group. Therefore, the ability to one-shot an opponent reliably isn't terribly powerful in the latter, but incredibly broken in the former.

On a side note, does anyone have the link to the ToS battle where the Lightning Maces Aptitude dual handcrossbow character got hit with Death Urge? :smallbiggrin:

[NNescio]

Well, ToS balances around 1vs1 PvP combat, not on your average cooperative style gaming group. Therefore, the ability to one-shot an opponent reliably isn't terribly powerful in the latter, but incredibly broken in the former.

On a side note, does anyone have the link to the ToS battle where the Lightning Maces Aptitude dual handcrossbow character got hit with Death Urge? :smallbiggrin:

Olo Demonsbane v. Phoenix Rivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125698)

Highlight:



... You have Failed a will save versus an Augmented Death Urge. For the next three rounds, you have the wonderful pleasure of having the following action.

On your turns, you must take a full round action to attack yourself with whatever weapon you have in hand right now. This will result in one attack, which automatically crits.


Ok, I automatically unload 588 bullets into my chest this next turn.

(2352d6+14112)[22378]

And I reflect it to myself, giving myself a total of 44756 damage :smallbiggrin:


Does that kill you?


Yes, it does :smalltongue:

Im not a full caster this time...


...wow. Just... wow. I never anticipated Lightning Mace for my opponent. That power destroys that build.

[Firechanter]

The problem with this kind of umpteen-attacks build isn't that it might be too powerful; it's that it gets incredibly annoying at the gaming table. Simply because it takes so long to roll all these attacks and confirmation rolls.

"That was your seventh attack, are you quite done yet?"
"Hang on, now for my off-hand..."
"*yawn*"

You'll get to a point where everyone gets up from the gaming table to grab a snack or go for a smoke the moment you reach for your dice.

[Boci]

The problem with this kind of umpteen-attacks build isn't that it might be too powerful; it's that it gets incredibly annoying at the gaming table. Simply because it takes so long to roll all these attacks and confirmation rolls.

"That was your seventh attack, are you quite done yet?"
"Hang on, now for my off-hand..."
"*yawn*"

ONline dice roller are pretty sueful for this. There should be a dice roller somewhere that can be programed to roll a fixed number of attacks, and to reroll when a certain number comes up.

[Vladislav]

I made a very simple half-Orc Barbarian 4/Fighter 4, for comparison:

Base Str before any adjustments = 16
Final Str after adjustments = 26 (+2 for being level 8, +2 racial, +2 item, +4 rage)

Gave him Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for feats, and Greatsword+2 and Belt of Strength+2 for items.

He's doing 31.62 damage per round vs. AC 25. Your 40.25 damage is nice, of course, but comparing the amount of optimization your went through (some of it actually illegal, such as the Improved Critical) and the hype, only a 27% increase compared to a zero-optimization character? Meh.

[Firechanter]

Well, I'd consider a ~30% increase pretty significant. On the other hand, that Barb has some feats to spare, and will certainly take Power Attack. On a low op level, he might take Cleave or even Great Cleave, all of which should improve his average.

Then again, the Critfisher isn't _that_ optimized either. Ironguard Aura/Stormguard Warrior isn't that big of a deal; there are smarter ways to improve damage output. Fixing the Improved Crit problem isn't difficult, simply swap some feats around or take Keen weapons, and it's a non-issue.
(Putting in Power Attack won't do any good in 3.5 since Kukris are light weapons, and even in Pathfinder the 1:1 ratio is not really worthwhile.)
Also, the OP's build doesn't really have optimal maneuver selection, either. I'd skip Action Before Thought, for instance. Also, pick up Dancing Mongoose as soon as possible.

So to answer the OP's question: no, Aptitude Lightning Kukris aren't broken. TWF needs all the love it can get to make it a worthwhile alternative to THF.