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View Full Version : LA SOLUTION: Gestalt... by Default?



visigani
2011-05-31, 07:32 AM
So it goes a little something like this....


What this Homebrew does is treat LA like a Gestalt Class. In other words every character is 20/20. They have their "Primary Class" and then a secondary Gestalt. However, players that wish to advance as a monster character would advance via their gestalt pool instead.

i.e. You'd be a Sorcerer 1/Pixie 1.

Once you cease gaining levels in Pixie you can instead advance in a second class via your gestalt levels.

i.e. You'd be a Sorcerer 5/Pixie 4 (Fighter 1)

In all other ways this acts just like Gestalt levels. This includes "Dead levels" for monster classes where you don't advance in Hitdice either. The normal benefits you'd reap in from that monster class (such as the any hitpoints above your normal class, a d8 instead of a d4 for example) would no longer apply.

Finally, skills feats and abilities gleaned from the secondary class, including monster classes cannot be used to obtain a prestige class.

If you would later want a Prestige Class that would have "overlap" with your secondary class (such as Eldritch's Knight needing access to martial weapons) you may "disavow" he feat or class feature gained from the secondary class at the time of acquisition and instead gain it normally through your primary class through multiclassing or normal feat acquisition.

This applies to feats, skills, and class abilities. Not skill points, base attack bonus, or saves.


Templates work a little bit different. Like Monster Class levels Templates are counted against your total Gestalt Classes. However, they must be purchased from levels before they may be applied.

In other words if you want to add a template with a +2 level adjustment you must first acquire two 'blank' levels and then purchase it.

In other words, If you were a level 3 Cleric/evel 3 Paladin who wanted to adopt the Saint Template you must become a level 5 Cleric/Level 3 Paladin and then you may adopt the Saint Template, balancing your levels at 5/5 after the LA.

Templates that must be purchased at character creation work in reverse. For characters without monster class levels this would delay the acquisition of your gestalt levels.

For example, a level 1 Cleric that began play as a saint could become a Level 3 Cleric, Level 1 Paladin upon level three (due to the two level delay on gestalt levels from Saint Template).


Characters with Monster Class levels that also began with a template at level 1 would gain their first Monster Class Level as well as the benefits of the Template, but their Monster Class would be delayed as above, until the Template LA was paid off.

i.e. You would begin Play as a Cleric 1/Pixie 1 (Saint Template -2). Once you achieved Cleric 4 you could become Cleric 4/Pixie 2 (Saint Template -2).




It's not wholely necessary to go the full monty.

If you know the LA of the players chosen monster races/templates will be significantly less than 20 you could easily adjudicate that you would b granted +5 Gestalt levels to tinker with. This would allow a character to play a Pixie Character while not leaving his compatriots in the dust.




Finally, skills feats and abilities gleaned from the secondary class, including monster classes cannot be used to obtain a prestige class.

If you would later want a Prestige Class that would have "overlap" with your secondary class (such as Eldritch's Knight needing access to martial weapons) you may "disavow" he feat or class feature gained from the secondary class at the time of acquisition and instead gain it normally through your primary class through multiclassing or normal feat acquisition.


Further, you cannot use these Gestalt levels to Multiclass.

If your choose your gestalt class as "Ranger" then you cannot become a Fighter via those levels at level 7. The only exception to this being characters with Monster Class levels, who may "multiclass" for purposes of those Monster Class levels alone.

You could be a Fighter 4/Wizard 4/Pixie 4 (Ranger 4), but not a Fighter 8/Pixie 4 (Ranger 2/Wizard 2). You would have to continue advancing as a Ranger for your gestalt levels, though you may multiclass as normal for your primary levels.

Darth Stabber
2011-05-31, 08:18 AM
A lot of extra restrictions you've added.

My prefered method involves every one telling me what race they want to play, and giving everyone gestalt up to the level of the highest ECL, or just running gestalt normally, since many players will sieze the opportunity to roll ECL races.

Aquillion
2011-05-31, 05:18 PM
A lot of extra restrictions you've added.

My prefered method involves every one telling me what race they want to play, and giving everyone gestalt up to the level of the highest ECLI'd say this is best.

Here's the problem with full gestalt and LA: Classes that scale as you put more levels into them (like casters) are still going to be a superior option to LA + racial HD, even on just one side of your progression. It's not as big a deal, because you can afford to sacrifice some power on one side of your progression in gestalt and still do fine as long as the other side is decent, but making it gestalt only up to the highest ECL ensures that the player who goes Wizard with all those levels won't be dramatically more powerful later on than the one who used some of them to play a cool monster.

Darth Stabber
2011-05-31, 06:20 PM
I'd say this is best.

Here's the problem with full gestalt and LA: Classes that scale as you put more levels into them (like casters) are still going to be a superior option to LA + racial HD, even on just one side of your progression. It's not as big a deal, because you can afford to sacrifice some power on one side of your progression in gestalt and still do fine as long as the other side is decent, but making it gestalt only up to the highest ECL ensures that the player who goes Wizard with all those levels won't be dramatically more powerful later on than the one who used some of them to play a cool monster.

I only have 1 caveat to your logic, in gestalt you don't run caster up both sides (at least not ideally), if for example you are a pixie wizard, you just got a free +6 int, which is going to do more for your build than most other classes can in the long run, provided that the actual gestaltable level is below a certain value. The only exceptions I can think off the top of my head are int-caster//factotum, and that is debatable, and more of an expression of the power of synergy, than evidence to the contrary.

The only big flaw is if someone really has the group at heart, and works out 20 lvls of hit dice, LA, and templates, and declares he wants to play that. At which point you want to bring the banhammer down. But it means you get to see more pixies and ogres floating around the table, and that is always a good thing.

visigani
2011-06-07, 02:17 AM
I only have 1 caveat to your logic, in gestalt you don't run caster up both sides (at least not ideally), if for example you are a pixie wizard, you just got a free +6 int, which is going to do more for your build than most other classes can in the long run, provided that the actual gestaltable level is below a certain value. The only exceptions I can think off the top of my head are int-caster//factotum, and that is debatable, and more of an expression of the power of synergy, than evidence to the contrary.

The only big flaw is if someone really has the group at heart, and works out 20 lvls of hit dice, LA, and templates, and declares he wants to play that. At which point you want to bring the banhammer down. But it means you get to see more pixies and ogres floating around the table, and that is always a good thing.



What this guy said. Let's face facts, in almost any build the spellcasting side of the pie is going to be the more potent one and will almost certainly be the side that recieves the benefits of the LA.

Anything other than that is a conscious choice on the part of the player to have "spellcasting as a bonus".

Eldan
2011-06-07, 03:45 AM
You could, perhaps, then, also include a gestalt tier limit? Count LA as about tier four and RHD as tier 3, then use the tier gestalt method outlined in the original tier thread. I.e. with a tier 1 or 2 class, you don't get to take a race along with it.

only1doug
2011-06-08, 08:53 AM
or you could take the savage species method and have progression through your racial heritage.

In my current campaign (started at L1) there is both a centaur and a Pixie who both started as juveniles.
I re-did the level distributions as I wasn't happy with the Savage Species specific implementation.
They have just hit L5 so the Pixie has finally got his class skills and the centaur is almost done with her racial hit dice. (and just had a growth spurt taking her to the Large size category).