Your Take on Immunity to Magic

[faus7rav3n]

A little history: The GM of our Pathfinder group made his world so that a small percentage of individuals born into his world are cut-off from all magic. Only magics of very ancient origin can affect them. One of our players decided that he would willingly accept the penalties associated with playing a person untouched by magic. Recently as we have progressed into the game, there have been several debates as to how this is supposed to work and even the GM has admitted that he hasn't fleshed out all the details on it, despite the fact that it's his world. There are currently two camps in the debate:

Camp A: No magic affects the individual in any way. In reference a Fireball is cast by a wizard at Player A. The fireball is magically conjured so therefore it cannot damage Player A. The method by which the effect is generated is what prevents him from being affected.

Camp B: Certain elemental damage from spells can affect Player A. Referring to the aforementioned fireball. The fireball cannot target the player, however the fireball can target the ground under his feet and thus deal the full elemental damage to Player A, b/c fire is very real and can hurt you. This same idea falls into line with Lightning Bolt. Conjuring the Lightning Bolt itself is magical, but the Bolt itself is electrical and thus causes elemental damage.

The Rub: Player A feels cheated if Camp B's resolution is effected b/c the GM didn't fully define the terms of the Magicless Boon when he decided to take it and Player A's vision of the Boon is one of Camp A's domain. The GM tends to hold Camp B's vision, after hearing Camp B's view presented by several members of the party that the Boon works 'this way' and not 'that way'.

I realize there are much more potent spells to worry about than Fireball and Call Lightning and many of them such as Dominate, Disintegrate, etc etc pose a much more serious threat. The players I run with haven't quite gotten to the level of optimization that I have, so they tend to worry about somewhat lesser spells b/c they haven't seen the levels of destruction in the grand scheme of things. I've explained this several times before to Player A. A little elemental damage is small beans, compared to rolling up on a wizard and smashing his face b/c his Hold Person didn't work is priceless.

I can see this from both sides and I tend to be the voice of moderation in the group. I largely agree with Player A's assessment of the Boon since someone immune to all forms of magic, but understand Camp B's explanation. I realize that the GM is the deciding factor and don't plan on undermining his plan for it, however:

What opinion do the G's-itP hold? GM decision notwithstanding. Is the elemental damage of Conjuration spells magical or non-magical in nature? Should it effect Player A in his magicless condition? If it is non-magical is there any source that can back it up?

Thanks!
~faus7rav3n

[Volthawk]

Well, magic immunity does have precedent, in golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm). They have immunity to everything that allows SR, so for example, a Fireball won't do anything, but an Orb of Fire will have normal affect.

[Keld Denar]

Backing up Volt...Immunity to Magic is a very specific in game term with very specific effects. It is, for all intents and purposes, SR: Infinity. Thus, any spell that checks SR automatically fails vs the person with Immunity. Any spell that doesn't check SR, however, affects them normally.

[DonDuckie]

I'm with the unafected by spells with "SR: yes". Also can't use magical items; they simply work as normal(masterwork). with the exception of "magics of very ancient origin". He would still be vulnerable to summoned creatures. He might even be able to ignore powerful spells like wall of force and just walk through it, and other force effects.

Perhaps I would just treat him as having a superman-field. An ultra thin antimagic field the only contains him, and maybe his clothes(like superman).

[agahii]

If I DMd it, no magic item, potion, scroll, spell use would be so damaging I'd say nothing that has anything to do with spells effects you directly is fine.

You will never fly(race specific) or hurt monsters with DR magic, so as a PC you would be useless after like level 6.

[arguskos]

If I DMd it, no magic item, potion, scroll, spell use would be so damaging I'd say nothing that has anything to do with spells effects you directly is fine.

You will never fly(race specific) or hurt monsters with DR magic, so as a PC you would be useless after like level 6.
Yeah really. If he wants Camp A, let him have it, and then he'll realize how 100% useless he really gets at some point. Around level 7-8, he'll figure out that this is a waaaaaaaay larger handicap than benefit, especially when a golem walks up and breaks his face. The golem's made out of metal or rock or whatever, not magic, so affects him just fine, and there's nothing he can do back to it, since he can't use magic gear or anything. :smallamused:

[Elvencloud]

I disagree a little. I take the SR immunity, and I agree with it. But a magic weapon is a magic weapon. The magic itself is on the weapon, not the player. Same with armor.
Now scrolls, wands, staffs, potions... anything that actually has to be consumed or cast or anything like that... wouldn't affect him.
So I think he could still use magic armor and weapons, but no rings, scrolls, etc.

[faus7rav3n]

Now the GM has ordained that even though Player A is personally immune to magic, SOME magical items will work. Ones that bestow a buff upon him won't, however ones like flaming burst, flaming, vorpal that are triggered via an action, will/can work since they are affecting the sword and not him by virtue of the way the magic was bestowed upon the object.

@ "SR:Infinity" situation I think that is an adaquate solution to the situation, seeing as the spells that don't have SR animate/utilize mundane things with the magic.

@ summoned creatures situation; the creature itself is not necessarily magic (unless stated in the Bestiary entry), the magic is being used to pull said creature to the plane, the creature itself is quite real.

@ Force Cage/ Wall of Force and other force related spells with no SR. I'm not sure how to interpret these. Is the 'pure force' described similar to Gravitational Force or what? I can see the force acting against Player A's armor, since the armor can still be affected by magic. It doesn't seem to line up with the other Force spells since some of them require SR.

[druid91]

If I DMd it, no magic item, potion, scroll, spell use would be so damaging I'd say nothing that has anything to do with spells effects you directly is fine.

You will never fly(race specific) or hurt monsters with DR magic, so as a PC you would be useless after like level 6.
Flying can be achieved without magic you know. Depending on setting. and DR is a set number. you simply have to overcome it.


Yeah really. If he wants Camp A, let him have it, and then he'll realize how 100% useless he really gets at some point. Around level 7-8, he'll figure out that this is a waaaaaaaay larger handicap than benefit, especially when a golem walks up and breaks his face. The golem's made out of metal or rock or whatever, not magic, so affects him just fine, and there's nothing he can do back to it, since he can't use magic gear or anything. :smallamused:

Hi Mr. Golem. This is my adamantine bladed axe. Please feel free to complain when it chops you in half.

OR Hello mr. Wizard who made the golem, I have you pinned and with a dagger to your throat. Stop your golem or I stop you.

[arguskos]

Hi Mr. Golem. This is my adamantine bladed axe. Please feel free to complain when it chops you in half.
The axe that has no enhancements and cannot breach DR/magic? Golems, that have large hit points, hit massively hard, and have high ACs? Yeah, you can technically hit it, sure, and you can deal good damage, but you are severely hampered by the fact that you have no survivability, limited mobility, limited damage options, etc.

No magic is a MASSIVELY stupid drawback. It's ruinously bad. Try being a non-magical archer and see how far that gets you. :smalltongue:

How does a non-magical character (in all aspects) deal with the following challenges:
-A flying wizard who spams summons at you.
-A dragon.
-Outsiders of any kind.
-A horde of guys.
-A large chasm.

What about several of these at once? How do you heal yourself (no magical healing)? What about ability damage? Ability drain? You can't be resurrected. How do you do underwater adventures? How do you survive really bad weather?

Just saying that complete 100% magical immunity is nowhere near as good as people think.

Pre-Edit: Yes, I know the OP has posted above me but I don't care, since I'm responding to a theoretical concept for effect and nothing more. :smallwink:

[faus7rav3n]

Yeah really. If he wants Camp A, let him have it, and then he'll realize how 100% useless he really gets at some point. Around level 7-8, he'll figure out that this is a waaaaaaaay larger handicap than benefit, especially when a golem walks up and breaks his face. The golem's made out of metal or rock or whatever, not magic, so affects him just fine, and there's nothing he can do back to it, since he can't use magic gear or anything.

Is borderline an ignorant comment really. He took the Immunity effect as a roleplaying challenge. Some people really enjoy interesting hooks. I thought it was quite interesting of him (A fighter) to gimp himself, one of the most gear dependant classes, for the sake of story. So I'm looking for opinions on how the Magic-less Trait is interpreted, not 'how to punish someone for their roleplaying decisions'.

As for potions, the GM made a few concessions for his case, and allowed there to be different types of potions, magical and alchemical. In his case he uses the Alchemical creations, which are not even close to able to compete with magical pots by our rules. Most everyone knows that using Pots in a CQB situation is pretty deadly.

We've used his magic-less trait to defeat an Old God (think Cthulu like) with a clever usage, so it's proven itself a benefit and a bane at the same time. In our group we enjoy story more than super-uber builds. Part of his backstory is to try and reconnect to magic in some way...or at least partially.

Thanks!

[agahii]

I said race specific.

Hello mister I just dimension doored away from, and my golem crushed in a grapple.

[Malimar]

This is an interesting idea, and I'm intrigued enough to consider adding it to my own campaign.

So how much would Immunity To Magic (I can't find a source for the specifics on how Immunity To Magic works, can anybody point me at a page number or srd link? I'm inclined to say SR:Infinity, can't be voluntarily reduced, can still use any magic item that doesn't have an effect on you (e.g., you still get full benefits of wielding a +1 sword, but somebody else hitting you with a +1 sword treats it as only a masterwork sword)) be worth? Would it be a trait, a flaw, or a feat? (Which is to say, is it penalty ≈ benefit, penalty > benefit, or penalty < benefit?) How about in an E6 game?

I'm inclined to think it may be too terrible to even be a flaw, because of conditions like aboleth slime which are not themselves magical but which cannot be fixed except with magic. But I guess those are relatively rare.

[agahii]

Is borderline an ignorant comment really. He took the Immunity effect as a roleplaying challenge. Some people really enjoy interesting hooks. I thought it was quite interesting of him (A fighter) to gimp himself, one of the most gear dependant classes, for the sake of story. So I'm looking for opinions on how the Magic-less Trait is interpreted, not 'how to punish someone for their roleplaying decisions'.

As for potions, the GM made a few concessions for his case, and allowed there to be different types of potions, magical and alchemical. In his case he uses the Alchemical creations, which are not even close to able to compete with magical pots by our rules. Most everyone knows that using Pots in a CQB situation is pretty deadly.

We've used his magic-less trait to defeat an Old God (think Cthulu like) with a clever usage, so it's proven itself a benefit and a bane at the same time. In our group we enjoy story more than super-uber builds. Part of his backstory is to try and reconnect to magic in some way...or at least partially.

Thanks!

Oh, I agree rule of cool is where it's at, he should go for it. What Im saying is that it is so gimping that it should be as good as you can think for it to be immunity wise. Go ahead and make inst conjurations not effect him and anything else even added damage from weapon enchants ect.

[faus7rav3n]

How does a non-magical character (in all aspects) deal with the following challenges:
-A flying wizard who spams summons at you.
-A dragon.
-Outsiders of any kind.
-A horde of guys.
-A large chasm.

Lets see here...how would WE do it. Since we have a Cleric in the party(me) and several (read 5) other people. It's quite easy to overcome those as a group. Since he's rarely ever alone without us.

1) Hold Person or Dispel Magic...Gravity sucks...and good luck casting w/out somatic components and sending your spell level up.
2) Lets negotiate...last I remember some Dragons can be pretty decent beings.
3) A little tougher, but Planar Binding and CoP would work wonders...
4) Depends on the Horde...a little teamwork and it's completely doable
5) How about a rope...or a creative assembly of 4 Immovable Rods and some rope. It might take a bit longer, but it's well within his grasp.

Magic isn't everything. Roleplaying however is...trying thinking without magic once, and it will open doors of possibility. Magic is a tool. Use it to good effect, but NEVER rely on it as your crutch. Good friends and a party that works together make a world of difference.

@ Malimar - I hadn't even considered magical weapons not affecting him... Very valid point I shall bring up to my GM. I think that would be nice to add too.

As for Trait/Flaw I would consider it a trait added after the fact. We roll a percentile with a 01-03 chance for every character to see if they are immune or alternatively you can just take it and forego the roll. It's a world story arc that the GM has plans for...more and more people are showing up magicless and the reason is unknown.

[arguskos]

Is borderline an ignorant comment really. He took the Immunity effect as a roleplaying challenge. Some people really enjoy interesting hooks. I thought it was quite interesting of him (A fighter) to gimp himself, one of the most gear dependant classes, for the sake of story. So I'm looking for opinions on how the Magic-less Trait is interpreted, not 'how to punish someone for their roleplaying decisions'.
I'm not attempting to "punish someone for their roleplaying decisions", and I resent the implication that I'm some kind of evil fun-killing bastard. :smallannoyed:

What I am doing is pointing out that there are concerns with what he's selected, and that he needs to be cognizant of that going forward. He is going to have trouble with certain things, and that if he isn't careful, that trouble is going to overwhelm him and make the game unfun. I can tell that said observation is unappreciated though, and so will happily bow out of this.

[faus7rav3n]

Apologies Argus. It just sounded like you were rather averse to the idea of Magical Immunity and preferred to extoll the virtues of such by hammering him with something like a golem to prove a point. The adversity of his condition is very worth it, as it tends to bring alot of creative thinking to the table.

He knows his limitations pretty well at this point and knows that he is effectively useless in certain scenarios. The party dynamic has taken most of his shortcomings into consideration and have compensated thus far. We also know that he is a boon against certain enemies. So we keep him around for that purpose.

[DarthCyberWolf]

As said, the rules for golem’s magical immunity are good for this.

In addition, Antimagic Ray from SpC would, I think, be useful for reference here. When hit with this spell, you are effectively in an antimagic field. This means you can't cast or be affected by spells and any magic on 'you' doesn't work. However you may still use spell completion items and any equipment on you isn't affected. :smallcool:

The antimagic rules from the spell also solve the Wall of Force problem as it (and prismatic wall/sphere as well), is not affected by antimagic field.

Note: My rules familiarity is mostly 3.5 and less Pathfinder. It may work differently there. :smallannoyed:

[druid91]

The axe that has no enhancements and cannot breach DR/magic? Golems, that have large hit points, hit massively hard, and have high ACs? Yeah, you can technically hit it, sure, and you can deal good damage, but you are severely hampered by the fact that you have no survivability, limited mobility, limited damage options, etc.

No magic is a MASSIVELY stupid drawback. It's ruinously bad. Try being a non-magical archer and see how far that gets you. :smalltongue:

How does a non-magical character (in all aspects) deal with the following challenges:
-A flying wizard who spams summons at you.
-A dragon.
-Outsiders of any kind.
-A horde of guys.
-A large chasm.

What about several of these at once? How do you heal yourself (no magical healing)? What about ability damage? Ability drain? You can't be resurrected. How do you do underwater adventures? How do you survive really bad weather?

Just saying that complete 100% magical immunity is nowhere near as good as people think.

Pre-Edit: Yes, I know the OP has posted above me but I don't care, since I'm responding to a theoretical concept for effect and nothing more. :smallwink:

The Barbarian, who has massive hitpoints, and hits like a convoy of trucks?

With the Adamantine greataxe that beats everything short of DR magic, a relatively small list of foes that does not include the golem.

Archer's get nothing with 3.5, it's a commonly known fact. You don't need magic to make a strength based meatgrinder on legs.

-flying wizard spamming summons? It's called use rope. I will bet you an internet that most wizards don't invest ranks in escape artist.

-A dragon? Again rope is your friend, tie it to a harpoon and hit the dragon climb up and stab it to death. Alternatively laugh as it's magical breath does nothing and wait for it to come down and take it's beating. Or if you want some points for style, invest in a couple of wagons, bombards, and hirelings, End it in a hail of cannonfire.

- Outsiders... Hack, slash, stab, and otherwise wound them until their hitpoints go away.

-Hack slash and stab them until they go away.

- spear, rope, throw. Crossbow, rope, shoot.

My point is, magic is the easy way to do things, not the only way.

[big teej]

if the idea is "no magic effects"

make it like an untouchable from warhammer

they litterally null magic in their presence.

magic weapons? nope, not working

get hit by a fireball? sorry no, immune.

pick up a holy avenger? oops, normal longsword

that's fair.

any benifits (magic can't touch me)
are balanced by not being able to use ANY magic.

[The Observer]

I mean basically your DM has to decide how exactly magic works in his setting.

Camp B would see it as the "magic" is summoning fire from nothing - but the fire summoned is still fire, and acts like fire does. Of course, this adds a whole host of problems - the fire wouldn't magically go away after 20 feet would it? It would stay and continue to spread until put out by whatever means.

Camp A however, would claim that a wizard/sorcerer/what have you actually creates fire from magic, and therefore the fire is inherently magical and shouldn't be able to hurt an "immune" player.

So if there's ever been a fireball cast in your campaign that acts like an inherently magical fireball (it vanishes after 20 feet) then Camp A should have this argument in the bag. Even if the fire has been treated like fire, they still have a valid argument to make.

[The Glyphstone]

-flying wizard spamming summons? It's called use rope. I will bet you an internet that most wizards don't invest ranks in escape artist.


Okay, this bit just made me go 'HUH?'

What are you planning to do, lasso him?:smallconfused:

[Hida Reju]

Magic Immunity is a tough call.

By itself it has only really two options. Can he benefit from a magic sword/Armor. If he himself is immune then the answer should be yes since he does not dispell magic he simply can not be affected by its effects. The sword gets by on being sharper/damaging magically. The armor is just harder to punch past. The ring of protection barrier still works because its not targeting him its just around him.

If the answer is no then he should be a walking source of antimagic. He should touch a golem and it goes inert since the magic holding it together is suppressed. I think your best source of inspiration is Warhammer's untouchables like a previous post said or Touma from To Aru no Index anime who basically could cancel any power that came at him with his left hand.

If you go with option 2 then he should also be immune to illusions, magical barriers and even summoned creatures.

Does not stop the dragon from eating him though. Unless you count dragons as magical beings and he tastes terrible or something.

[Bhaakon]

Does not stop the dragon from eating him though. Unless you count dragons as magical beings and he tastes terrible or something.

But does the dragon then turn into a big lizard devoid to magical abilities? You are what you eat, after all.

[Skrobo]

The Barbarian, who has massive hitpoints, and hits like a convoy of trucks?

With the Adamantine greataxe that beats everything short of DR magic, a relatively small list of foes that does not include the golem.

Archer's get nothing with 3.5, it's a commonly known fact. You don't need magic to make a strength based meatgrinder on legs.

-flying wizard spamming summons? It's called use rope. I will bet you an internet that most wizards don't invest ranks in escape artist.

-A dragon? Again rope is your friend, tie it to a harpoon and hit the dragon climb up and stab it to death. Alternatively laugh as it's magical breath does nothing and wait for it to come down and take it's beating. Or if you want some points for style, invest in a couple of wagons, bombards, and hirelings, End it in a hail of cannonfire.

- Outsiders... Hack, slash, stab, and otherwise wound them until their hitpoints go away.

-Hack slash and stab them until they go away.

- spear, rope, throw. Crossbow, rope, shoot.




That is a joke, right?

[NNescio]

Okay, this bit just made me go 'HUH?'

What are you planning to do, lasso him?:smallconfused:

Wizard: Celerity. Animate Rope.

Just for the sheer hilarity. Irony bites.

[Killer Angel]

I'm in the group: any spell that checks SR automatically fails vs the person with Immunity. Fireballs won't affect him, but neither Cure.
He can use magical gear and he will be affected by magical objects (magic weapon will add the bonuses)... it's not an AMF, after all.

[NNescio]

I'm in the group: any spell that checks SR automatically fails vs the person with Immunity. Fireballs won't affect him, but neither Cure.
He can use magical gear and he will be affected by magical objects (magic weapon will add the bonuses)... it's not an AMF, after all.

I'm in favour of having the magic-immune character with a personal AMF field (that doesn't extend beyond his body) ala being affected by an Antimagic Ray permanently. Otherwise, he can still cast magic, or use spell-likes and supernatural abilities. He can still use magical equipment and spell trigger/spell-completion items though.

[Killer Angel]

I'm in favour of having the magic-immune character with a personal AMF field (that doesn't extend beyond his body) ala being affected by an Antimagic Ray permanently. Otherwise, he can still cast magic, or use spell-likes and supernatural abilities. He can still use magical equipment and spell trigger/spell-completion items though.

Right, I wasn't thinking to the spellcasters.
But, If I hit you with a magic weapon and you have this personal AMF, do I apply the magical bonus? If not, I sense problems for the DM...

[NNescio]

Right, I wasn't thinking to the spellcasters.
But, If I hit you with a magic weapon and you have this personal AMF, do I apply the magical bonus? If not, I sense problems for the DM...

Only the creature is treated as inside this particular AMF, so enemy weapons still work since they are never inside.

It's rather elegant, actually, due to "...doesn’t affect any objects other than the subject itself, even if those objects are worn, carried by, or in contact with the subject" clause.

[mootoall]

In other news, let's stop with the question of what he'll do to the flying, summoning wizard, lest it just become a wizard vs. fighter contest, 'cause we all know how that turns out, and it goes against the original intent of the question, which is what he would do when he can't fly up and hit something. Rather, pit him against a manticore or something, which has the same basic problem without the whole "But wait the wizard will do this" factor.

[druid91]

That is a joke, right?

Nope, total immunity to magic is pretty powerful, the only problem I can see is healing.


Okay, this bit just made me go 'HUH?'

What are you planning to do, lasso him?:smallconfused:

Yep.


Wizard: Celerity. Animate Rope.

Just for the sheer hilarity. Irony bites.

Animate rope can't do that.:smallwink:

[ILM]

I'm in favour of having the magic-immune character with a personal AMF field (that doesn't extend beyond his body) ala being affected by an Antimagic Ray permanently. Otherwise, he can still cast magic, or use spell-likes and supernatural abilities. He can still use magical equipment and spell trigger/spell-completion items though.
I think that's the most elegant solution as well. Antimagic Ray serves as a precedent, it's well defined, and it's not entirely crippling.

edit:
Animate rope can't do that.:smallwink:

Okay, for one, it can:
The rope can enwrap only a creature or an object within 1 foot of it (and since you're holding the lasso...)

For two, even if it doesn't, you can just Celerity into pretty much anything else.

[druid91]

I think that's the most elegant solution as well. Antimagic Ray serves as a precedent, it's well defined, and it's not entirely crippling.

edit:

Okay, for one, it can:

For two, even if it doesn't, you can just Celerity into pretty much anything else.

Nope can't animate objects carried or worn by others.

Whaat you mean all those things that total magic immunity crushes?

[Killer Angel]

Nope, total immunity to magic is pretty powerful, the only problem I can see is healing.


You'll also suffer the lack of buff spells on you (goodbye Haste, and so on).

[The Glyphstone]

So, whats's the range penalty on successfully lassoing a wizard 100ft. above you? Assuming, of course you've lucked out and he did not cast Freedom of Movement (which is entirely possible, because why would even a paranoid wizard expect someone to be carrying around a 100ft lasso just in case)? Also assuming he didn't cast Wind Wall, which would be very likely for a flying enemy versus an obviously ground-bound one. Also assuming he's not invisible, which would let him summon monsters without retaliation (since you can't see invisibility non-magically).

And then he Dimension Doors free of the lasso and goes another 50ft. up to continue walloping you with his minions (or just Telekinesis-dropping rocks on your head, if he's high enough level).

[CTrees]

And then he Dimension Doors free of the lasso and goes another 50ft. up to continue walloping you with his minions (or just Telekinesis-dropping rocks on your head, if he's high enough level).

That's when you pull out your 150' lasso, obviously!

And... yeah, I'll agree, make it a manticore or something, rather than a wizard. Too much of the standard arms race if it's a wizard.

[The Glyphstone]

True dat. That sort of strategy could actually work against flying monster enemies - though you'd be at a painful disadvantage against enemies that also don't use magic...giants, for example. I, for one, would not want to be a fighter with total immunity to magic going up against a bog-standard stone giant in melee.

[Skrobo]

Nope, total immunity to magic is pretty powerful, the only problem I can see is healing.


Okie:

Level 20 barbarian with oversized 2-handed weapon, that started the game with 21 strength, during mighty rage:
Attacks +32 / + 27 / +22 / + 17 for 2d8+18 points of damage.
With Power attack at 10, +22 / +17 / + 12 / +7 for 2d8+38
Joke of an AC, 5/- damage reduction, hitpoints 130+20*CON


Old white dragon, with Challenge ratting 15:
Attacks +31 / +26 / +26 / +26 / +26 / +26 for 2d8+9, 2d8+4, 2d8+4, 2d8+4, 2d8+4, 2d8+13 accordingly.
AC 31, 10/magic damage reduciton, 276 hp.

You sure you want to do this fight? And we ignore all of the dragon's abilities, the fact that the can just grapple you or that is 5 CR lower than you.

[Tokuhara]

Here's my 2c:

I suggest actually taking a cue from Forsaker, but give them to him for "free" (HD dependant)

For instance: He could gain Fast Healing = HD, wield magic weapons, wear magic armor, gain Natural Armor = HD/2, etc.

Just remember: He won't be as powerful as the mage to begin with (spellcasters = win), so give him some benefits aside from the Immunity to Magic

[NNescio]

@druid91:

Use Rope does jack for lassoing enemies (except for letting you make a lasso in the first place). Binding a character only works at touch range, and you'll need 1 whole minute to do it regardless.

Lasso rules are in the BoED and doesn't require Use Rope. It also has a 30 ft maximum range, with a range increment of 10 feet.

Use Rope is also not a Fighter class skill, and he gets like what, 3 skill points per level?

If you somehow managed to get a >100ft-long lasso to work (and through DM approval), fat chance of hitting a wizard with stacking miss chances and various other buffs up. The range penalties will also probably be rather crippling.

And if you somehow manage to lasso the wizard, he'll just pop out his various verbal-only teleportation spells to get away. Assuming he doesn't just 1-turn-Celerity-nuke you in the first place. Or even let you win initiative or the surprise round.

The Animate Rope suggestion was just a joke. I assumed you weren't being serious.

[faus7rav3n]

[/thread derail]

This thread was never intended to pit wizard vs. fighter. It was simply to find out what viewpoints GitP has of Magic Immunity on a PC and how it should function. I should never have pandered to the original post on how to overcome such. Anyway.

So far I'm getting these as the most logical combination:

1) Player effectively has Spell Resistance: Infinity

a) Any Spell w/ 'SR:Yes' won't affect him; some exceptions apply
2) Player can use Magical Weapons and Armor

a) Armor that buffs i.e. Belt of Giant Str is a no go
3) Magical weapons that hit him are treated as mundane? (I actually like this)

a) The weapon will still grant the bonuses, however it's magical effect such as Vorpal on a Critical would have no effect.

b) Wands wouldn't be able to affect him.

c) Spell Like Abilities are affected by SR thus don't work
4) Grant some additional potential benefits (There would have to be an explaination for how this would work.)

a) Fast Healing, Natural Armor

This really helps defines the Magic Immunity thing and the SRD rules reference will help cement this case. Feel free to post any other suggestions up.

Thanks!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This seems like a bit of a moot point. The player obviously knows it's a disadvantage, so why are we arguing about it? He can still be useful sometimes, and he's having fun with the concept. I agree with everything laid out by the OP, but beware instantaneous conjurations.

[Divide by Zero]

c) Dragons Breath is considered magical, therefore Player is unaffected?

If you're going with the "SR Infinity" version, then dragon breath would still work normally, because supernatural effects ignore spell resistance.

[Archwizard]

Am I the only one that thought of this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html ?

Anyway, I'm in Camp A in general. SR: yes = no effect. Buffs = no effect. Any magic effect you have to trigger = no effect. Magic weapons/armor, depends on the theory of the immunity: the character is a disrupting influence = no effect; the character just has some sort of weird internal immunity = can still be used (but nothing can be triggered, such as a dancing sword).

[NNescio]

[/thread derail]

This thread was never intended to pit wizard vs. fighter. It was simply to find out what viewpoints GitP has of Magic Immunity on a PC and how it should function. I should never have pandered to the original post on how to overcome such. Anyway.

So far I'm getting these as the most logical combination:

1) Player effectively has Spell Resistance: Infinity

a) Any Spell w/ 'SR:Yes' won't affect him; some exceptions apply
2) Player can use Magical Weapons and Armor

a) Armor that buffs i.e. Belt of Giant Str is a no go
3) Magical weapons that hit him are treated as mundane? (I actually like this)

a) The weapon will still grant the bonuses, however it's magical effect such as Vorpal on a Critical would have no effect.

b) Wands wouldn't be able to affect him.

c) Dragons Breath is considered magical, therefore Player is unaffected?
4) Grant some additional potential benefits (There would have to be an explaination for how this would work.)

a) Fast Healing, Natural Armor

This really helps defines the Magic Immunity thing and the SRD rules reference will help cement this case. Feel free to post any other suggestions up.

Thanks!

Dragon Breath technically goes through Magic Immunity (the 'Spell Resistance: ∞' version). But if you are going to prevent magic weapons from having their full effect you might as well slap a penalty to the breaths anyway.

Also, Magic Immunity technically doesn't prevent the creature from casting spells or using spell-likes and other supernatural abilities. SR also doesn't apply to personal spells* that also target the caster (this sounds redundant, but it isn't), so they also go through Magic Immunity. You might want to forbid these.

*Spells with Range: Personal. Spells with Range: Touch are not Personal spells even when used by the caster on himself, so Magic Immunity would still apply.

[Archwizard]

If you have access to a 2E PHB, page 102 has some good stuff about SR.

[faus7rav3n]

Since Dragon's Breath is Supernatural, I can see that working.

Anything that causes a buff on the player would not work. Since he willingly cannot bring down his Trait, Personal spells won't work.

I forgot about SLA's. Since SLA's mimic a specific spell should they be able to penetrate the Immunity Barrier? I don't think they should.

Su, Ex, Sp - Would work b/c those typically revolve around some skill the character has developed.

[Divide by Zero]

Spell-like abilities are spell-like for a reason. They are affected by SR too, and definitely should not affect this character (aside from ones that mimic SR: no spells, if he goes that route).

[Fable Wright]

In regards to the vs flying debate: He's travelling with a Cleric. He just rides a summoned Hippogriff(/other flier) obviously. Or a flying golem steed or a PB'd demon. Not too much of a problem...

[AndrewRP]

Greetings All. I'm Andrew and the GM that faus7rav3n speaks of.

First, I'm surprised this was even brought up as I was under the impression that all my players understood the rule and how it works. I've tried to be clear on the issue and even though we've hashed it out on three separate occasions, it seems there is still some confusion. So, I'll try to clarify here how it works.

One of the best examples I can use to explain how this works is from the Star Wars EU stories. Specifically the Yuuzhan Vong. This race originated from outside the Star Wars galaxy and were unaffected by the Force. They could not be sensed and were unaffected by force powers that directly targeted them. Thus Choke or Telekinesis (Lift/Push) could NOT affect them. But a heavy object hurled across the room using the force could.

The same applies for 'The Disconjunction' (the name of the condition that affects %3 of the population in my game). Direct magics do not apply to the person in question but indirect magic does. Examples!

1) Magic Missile: Requires a TARGET. The victim cannot be a target, thus cannot be struck with a magic missile.

2) Fireball (and Lightning Bolt): Both do NOT require a target, only a direction. As Fire and Lightning are naturally occurring elements, they deal normal damage. Now, yes... they are created from a magical source, but the damage is all natural. The victim would take normal damage from these spells.

3) Wall of Force: Though the spell description doesn't specifically say so, I interpret this as a wall of Magical Force. Thus, the victim could simply walk right through it. (His carried items and equipment cannot, however.)

I feel the basics of this house rule are sound and I deal with each spell on a case-by-case basic as it comes up as I simply don't have time to sift through the entire magic spell list and check off which spells affect the victim how.

This is in essence "Spell Immunity (Ex)". Actually... I don't know why I didn't think of this before... it just occured to me. But, here it is.

Spell Immunity (Ex)
A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.

My house rule is very similar to Spell Immunity. Now, if I go by the 3.5 rules, Fireball allows a Spell Resistance. Thus, according to Spell Immunity, a player would be immune to Fireball. I don't like this idea. Fire is fire, regardless of how it's created. With my house rule, the player would still get burnt.

[The Glyphstone]

In that case, why not just change Fireball and Lightning Bolt (and whatever other spells you end up including in this) to SR: No?

Otherwise you may have players wondering why the 'nonmagical' fire burns the Disconjunctioned person, but not the golem standing right next to him.

[Hida Reju]

Greetings All. I'm Andrew and the GM that faus7rav3n speaks of.

First, I'm surprised this was even brought up as I was under the impression that all my players understood the rule and how it works. I've tried to be clear on the issue and even though we've hashed it out on three separate occasions, it seems there is still some confusion. So, I'll try to clarify here how it works.

One of the best examples I can use to explain how this works is from the Star Wars EU stories. Specifically the Yuuzhan Vong. This race originated from outside the Star Wars galaxy and were unaffected by the Force. They could not be sensed and were unaffected by force powers that directly targeted them. Thus Choke or Telekinesis (Lift/Push) could NOT affect them. But a heavy object hurled across the room using the force could.

The same applies for 'The Disconjunction' (the name of the condition that affects %3 of the population in my game). Direct magics do not apply to the person in question but indirect magic does. Examples!

1) Magic Missile: Requires a TARGET. The victim cannot be a target, thus cannot be struck with a magic missile.

2) Fireball (and Lightning Bolt): Both do NOT require a target, only a direction. As Fire and Lightning are naturally occurring elements, they deal normal damage. Now, yes... they are created from a magical source, but the damage is all natural. The victim would take normal damage from these spells.

3) Wall of Force: Though the spell description doesn't specifically say so, I interpret this as a wall of Magical Force. Thus, the victim could simply walk right through it. (His carried items and equipment cannot, however.)

I feel the basics of this house rule are sound and I deal with each spell on a case-by-case basic as it comes up as I simply don't have time to sift through the entire magic spell list and check off which spells affect the victim how.

This is in essence "Spell Immunity (Ex)". Actually... I don't know why I didn't think of this before... it just occured to me. But, here it is.

Spell Immunity (Ex)
A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.

My house rule is very similar to Spell Immunity. Now, if I go by the 3.5 rules, Fireball allows a Spell Resistance. Thus, according to Spell Immunity, a player would be immune to Fireball. I don't like this idea. Fire is fire, regardless of how it's created. With my house rule, the player would still get burnt.

Dude if he is going to have immunity to magic both good and bad then it needs to be a real immunity. If you want the real vs magic fire question then go the conjuration line of spells that have spell resistance no for a reason.

Otherwise he is more than just at a disadvantage he is just a walking target to be punched on and ceases to be meaningful. Fluff and story are awesome but if you are going to marginalize a dude be honest about the effects.

[ericgrau]

Technically potions bypass SR which would mean they bypass magic immunity too. One of the quirks of D&D. Though the same applies to spells cast on yourself. Yeah, maybe the DM wouldn't want to allow such things.