Level 1 Kobold PC?

[zyborg]

For some reason, I really want to play a Kobold. However, I'm not going to start looking in the recruitment threads for an open game or making my own until I know whether it is viable. Could someone help me understand what would be best for a level 1 Kobold?

[Lateral]

Take Dragonwrought. Be venerable. You win.

Also, it's probably smart to be a Desert Kobold to shift the CON penalty to WIS- if you're Venerable, you'll get +3 INT +1 WIS +3 CHA.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

And also be a Sorcerer. And a Loredrake. Then you'll have 3rd level Sorc casting at level 1.

At that point I like to take two levels of Paladin for Cha to saves, and then look at more Sorc and Sorc advancing PrCs. You might also consider Monk 1 (since you'll be taking the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), you'll have 3 extra Sorc levels, so taking Monk 1/Paladin 2 doesn't hurt so bad) and the feat Ascetic Mage to get Cha to AC.

[zyborg]

Venerable Dragonwrought Sorcerer? Not wizard or beguiler? And should I take ranks in Craft(traps)?

[Lateral]

Being a Loredrake nets you +2 levels of Sorcerer casting, the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage nets you +1- that's 3rd level casting at level 1, since you can't take the Rite until about level 6. Also, be a White Dragonspawn- it gets you another +1. Also, take the Spellhoarding psychosis which changes your casting to Wizard casting using your scales as a spellbook, and the Riddled psychosis which gives you +6 INT.

Craft (Trapmaking) is optional- you might as well take Craft (Underwater Basketweaving). :smalltongue:

[KoboldCleric]

If you're really looking to cheese it up I like going cleric/sorcerer mystic theurge with advanced sorcerer casting and early entry along with the kobold domain for trapfinding ... talk about the one manreptile party.

Seriously though, I've played a kobold swift hunter I really enjoyed and, of course, my namesake character was great. The ability penalties really aren't crippling at all; minor at low levels and negligible after that; thus, even without dragonwrought shenanigans the race can play any class well.

[Hadessniper]

Honestly I'm a big fan of dex based kobold unarmed swordsages. With the kobold web enhancement they get claw claw bite as a natural attack which can be added to the end of a full attack.

The first few levels are hard to get through but once you get to around 5th level it becomes pretty fun be a kobold who jumps out at an enemy hitting it for 6d6+2d6 sneak attack. Then the next round turns invisible and gets 5 attacks each with sneak attack. Then teleports away into hiding only to come jumping out of the shadows again a round later.

[zyborg]

Being a Loredrake nets you +2 levels of Sorcerer casting, the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage nets you +1- that's 3rd level casting at level 1, since you can't take the Rite until about level 6. Also, be a White Dragonspawn- it gets you another +1. Also, take the Spellhoarding psychosis which changes your casting to Wizard casting using your scales as a spellbook, and the Riddled psychosis which gives you +6 INT.

Craft (Trapmaking) is optional- you might as well take Craft (Underwater Basketweaving). :smalltongue:

How does that work? How do I become a Loredrake? If that is a Feat, should I take that or Dragonwrought? Or do I need both? I thought I only had one feat...

[Lateral]

Dragonwrought is a feat. Loredrake is in Dragons of Eberron, I believe- it's a sovereign archetype which reduces your racial HD (which you have none of) to d10s and gives +2 levels of Sorcerer casting. Then, by applying the two psychoses, you get massive boosts to your (new) casting stat and get Wizard casting instead of Sorcerer casting, even though you're taking Sorcerer levels- and you get +2 of those, improving to +3 once you get the Rite and +4 if you're a White Dragonspawn.

Although, I believe that a Dragonwrought Kobold doesn't actually qualify for White Dragonspawn, instead being eligible for White Dragonspawn Abomination, which has a slightly different, variable effect (similar to Unseelie Fey.) One of those effects is +1 casting, one is +2 casting (!), but others are different and you have to roll for which ones you get.

[zyborg]

Er... I've been reading up, and... I don't think Dragonwrought allows Loredrake. It changes to Dragon, not True Dragon... that's confusing...

[Lateral]

Technically, you do qualify as a True Dragon due to some loophole in some book somewhere. It's really iffy from RAI, but then this whole combo is stupidly cheesy anyway. :smallsigh:

'Course, even just a Dragonwrought Desert Kobold alone can be great, and a Venerable one doesn't really push it over the top unless you abuse the 'access to epic feats' thing. Just do that and rock out with the arcane caster class of your choice or get those feats that give you natural weapons and be a melee beast with those; you don't need to get nuts.

[Yuki Akuma]

A True Dragon is any Dragon that gets more powerful as it ages.

Kobolds who take the Dragonwrought feat get more powerful as they age. Kobolds also use the same age categories as True Dragons.

So yeah.

[Lateral]

A True Dragon is any Dragon that gets more powerful as it ages.

Kobolds who take the Dragonwrought feat get more powerful as they age. Kobolds also use the same age categories as True Dragons.

So yeah.

Really? O_o

Wow. That's even more stupid than I thought.

[Luckmann]

I know it's not prohibited by RAW, but would any sensible DM actually allow a level 1 character to start at Venerable?

Just how old is Venerable, anyway?

Anyway, to return to the original question; Is a level 1 kobold viable? Yes. Very much so. Thing is, no matter what, you'll probably be spending that first feat on becoming a Dragonwrought Kobold, regardless of class.

There's really not that much more to add. :smalltongue:

[zyborg]

Okay, anyone here willing to DM a game where I'm allowed to do this?

[Lateral]

They just have to want to play a high-powered sandbox game- you know, be okay with you totally raping the campaign world. The real problem is if you want to play one in a game that's already got a power level lower than that.

Also, might wanna check the PbP forums.

[Luckmann]

They just have to want to play a high-powered sandbox game- you know, be okay with you totally raping the campaign world. The real problem is if you want to play one in a game that's already got a power level lower than that.

[...]And by that, you mean "a game with a power level under 9000".

:smallbiggrin:

[Lateral]

True, true. Although I think I'm in the mood for that sort of game right now- if you need a second player, I'm in.

[zyborg]

A high-powered campaign, eh? Hm... might be fun.

[Marnath]

I know it's not prohibited by RAW, but would any sensible DM actually allow a level 1 character to start at Venerable?

Just how old is Venerable, anyway?



Why not? Some people just come to adventuring late in life. Look up Ezren the pathfinder iconic mage's bio, he didn't take his first level in wizard until he was 52.

[Retech]

Okay, so there was something about dragons becoming dragonspawn that makes white dragonspawn abominations. I believe that you can just insert into your backstory that you are one of the rare dragonspawn abominations that have more sorcerer power, and you've got another +3 or 4 sorcerer levels right there.

I believe that you can get one up to +7 or something (saw on another thread), which stacking with all the stuff, is pretty awesome.

[Lateral]

Nah, I'm pretty sure that you have to roll for it, unlike Unseelie Fey (rolling for that is optional). The maximum for that is +2 levels, also.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Then, by applying the two psychoses, you get massive boosts to your (new) casting stat and get Wizard casting instead of Sorcerer casting, even though you're taking Sorcerer levels- and you get +2 of those, improving to +3 once you get the Rite and +4 if you're a White Dragonspawn.

Where are the psychoses from again?

[zyborg]

Lateral, wanna make a game in the recruitment thread? I'd like to RP with the char you've been helping me make, and you said you might be interested in a game like that...

[Big Fau]

I know it's not prohibited by RAW, but would any sensible DM actually allow a level 1 character to start at Venerable?

Well, considering you can get between 2 and 4 years worth of adventuring done in what little lifespan you have left, yes (then in the final year become a Dragonborn, thus extending your lifespan by 400 years).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Well, considering you can get between 2 and 4 years worth of adventuring done in what little lifespan you have left, yes (then in the final year become a Dragonborn, thus extending your lifespan by 400 years).

I don't think Dragons can become Dragonborn.

And besides, a venerable (Great Wyrm) Kobold is 120 years old at minimum, and will live for +Cha years (whether this is +Cha mod or +Cha score I don't know) though Dragonwrought Kobolds live for +5Cha years or +10Cha years, depending on ancestry. That's plenty of time to become immortal, if you're an adventurer. And a Venerable Dragonwrought Wedded to History Kobold (assuming flaws to get two "Level 1 Only" feats) would last forever.

[Big Fau]

I don't think Dragons can become Dragonborn.

Anything can become a Dragonborn, provided it is non-Evil and willing to undergo the ritual. The Humanoid part was an error, and hasn't been errata'ed (then again, half of the books WotC printed have no errata at all, and the books that do have errata missed a lot of content).

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

*Inhale* Venerable 'White Dragonspawn Abomination Magic-Blooded Unseelie Fey Desert Kobold Loredrake' Cleric *exhale*. Take the Draconic Rite rituials at level 1 and 3 and you 'can' end up with maximum of 9 effective sorcerer levels (WDA = 1-7 lvls + Loredrake = 1 + a level of sorcerer at 1 = 3-9 effective levels). At level 3 it possible to have 12 effective levels. If you want to open up the debate of whether you can take Dragonspawn and Dragonwrought together feel free but I am not going to say anything on the subject.

Go cleric (or a divine spellcasting class of your choice) and then (if you roll well enough to get 4th level spells) use polymorph and go into a Psionic Mind Flayer, use psychic reformation and then use that for early entry (someone check if I am right on this please) into Incantrix. Take a few levels until you have the feats for it and then go into Dweomerkeeper (since we are already talking cheese) for Wish shenanigans. Look at the feats reserves of strength and alternate source casting (IIRC) for even more cheese.

Have fun.

[zyborg]

How many feats does a Kobold Sorcerer start with? Any way to take Dragonwrought and another feat?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

How many feats does a Kobold Sorcerer start with? Any way to take Dragonwrought and another feat?

A Kobold Sorcerer 1 starts with one feat (this feat is Dragonwrought, no exceptions).

Using Flaws from Unearthed Arcana would be the only way I know of getting more.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

How many feats does a Kobold Sorcerer start with? Any way to take Dragonwrought and another feat?

You could get rid of your familiar for the Draconic Heritage feat (RotD) but that really isn't the best ACF for your familiar.

[Retech]

What's that feat that turns all that draconic casting into equivilant wizard casting?

[Luckmann]

A Kobold Sorcerer 1 starts with one feat (this feat is Dragonwrought, no exceptions).

Using Flaws from Unearthed Arcana would be the only way I know of getting more.

As I've come to understand it though, Flaws is very much one of those things you need to ask your DM about anyway and shouldn't be considered unless you know that it'll be allowed, similar to any variety of houserules.

Start by asking if you can simply take an extra Feat at level 1 (not uncommon, afaik) and if that's a no, ask if you can take Flaws for extra Feats.

[Lateral]

What's that feat that turns all that draconic casting into equivilant wizard casting?

The Spellhoarding psychosis. Not a feat.

[Greenish]

Just how old is Venerable, anyway?Varies by species. A venerable (actually, great wyrm, since kobolds use dragon age categories) kobold would be a tad over 120, or about the same age as an elf who's just reached adulthood.


Where are the psychoses from again?Dragon Mag #313.


What's that feat that turns all that draconic casting into equivilant wizard casting?Spellhoarding is a psychosis (a semi-temporary template-like thingy). It can only be applied on true dragons, and changes their sorcerer-casting to wizard casting.

[Benly]

Leaving aside venerable loredrake dragonspawn greater rite nonsense (because I have yet to meet a DM who would allow all of it in a game starting at level 1), at low levels kobolds make pretty great rogues with the web enhancement. The dex bonus plus size and Slight Build makes them sneaky as heck, and natural weapons combine well with Sneak Attac.

[Greenish]

Leaving aside venerable loredrake dragonspawn greater rite nonsense (because I have yet to meet a DM who would allow all of it in a game starting at level 1),Maybe because Greater draconic Rite requires 6 HD, and White Dragonspawn (in addition to being illegal) is +1 LA template. :smalltongue:


at low levels kobolds make pretty great rogues with the web enhancement. The dex bonus plus size and Slight Build makes them sneaky as heck, and natural weapons combine well with Sneak Attac.Definitely, though they (like all dex-rogues) are going to be hurting for first level or two, due to the BAB requirement on Weapon Finesse.

[Benly]

Maybe because Greater draconic Rite requires 6 HD, and White Dragonspawn (in addition to being illegal) is +1 LA template. :smalltongue:

Even aside from that, it's my experience that DMs who want to run the kind of high-power game where this would be appropriate also tend to want to start at higher than level 1, presumably because it's harder to get into the high-power vibe when you can get randomly splatted by an orc with a mace in one hit. If the DM is starting the game at level 1, it's probably not the kind of game where GDR is going to be appropriate even once you qualify.

I'm also personally not convinced that loredrake is legal on dragonwrought kobolds. I know better than to try to convince its advocates of my point of view on the subject, but it should be acknowledged that it's not going to fly in every game regardless of how often you shout "But it's RAW if you interpret it this way!"

(My personal opinion is also that Loredrake and GDR are plain old bad ideas to allow for PCs regardless of what RAW may be, and regardless of GDR being explicitly intended for PCs.)

[Greenish]

If the DM is starting the game at level 1, it's probably not the kind of game where GDR is going to be appropriate even once you qualify.Eh, GDR isn't even particularly cheesy.

[Benly]

Eh, GDR isn't even particularly cheesy.

"Trade two feats for effectively a full class level in a high-tier class" kind of is.

[Yuki Akuma]

Two feats are not worth a single level. Feats are precious. Your average Sorcerer, discounting flaws or racial bonus feats, gets seven feats.

[Asheram]

Bah. Sorcerer? That's untrue.

He shall be a Kobold Bard by the name of Deekin.

[Benly]

Two feats are not worth a single level. Feats are precious. Your average Sorcerer, discounting flaws or racial bonus feats, gets seven feats.

Your average sixth-level sorcerer gets six sorcerer levels. In fact, any sixth-level sorcerer who isn't engaged in these specific shenanigans gets six sorcerer levels. There's a reason that there are so many more options for accelerated feat progression than accelerated level progression.

I know feats aren't a throwaway, but given the fervor with which people chant "NEVER LOSE CASTING LEVELS" it seems baffling to try to make a case that gaining full casting levels above your actual level isn't excessively powerful.

[Greenish]

"Trade two feats for effectively a full class level in a high-tier class" kind of is.One feat, 1100 gp and 4 hp, actually.

And no, it's not cheesy. It's decent option, yeah, but not overwhelmingly so.

[Yuki Akuma]

I can see one feat being worth one class level. :smalltongue:

[Benly]

One feat, 1100 gp and 4 hp, actually.

And no, it's not cheesy. It's decent option, yeah, but not overwhelmingly so.

For some reason I misremembered the lower DRP as requiring a feat. Ah well.

Oh no, my 1100 GP. Oh noooo.

Given that higher spell levels are frequently argued as the most powerful and game-defining class feature, what other feat is giving you nearly as much benefit as an extra casting level? (Note that for this purpose, "casting level" is different from "caster level" and refers to what level you actually cast as, including spells known and per day.)

[riddles]

Having never messed around with dragonwrought kobolds before, 2 builds came to mind.

Dragonwrought+loredrake. Sorc 2, cleric 3, mystic theurge x. With greater draconic rite you have maximum sorceror levels and are only 2 levels behind on cleric for buffs, utility etc. Get dragon wings for flight and safety.

Alternatively, go gish. Couple of paladin levels won't hurt your casting but the stats will. Find a way to get energy damage on your claws. Kobold fighter sub levels give you strength and con back.

[JaronK]

A True Dragon is any Dragon that gets more powerful as it ages.

Kobolds who take the Dragonwrought feat get more powerful as they age. Kobolds also use the same age categories as True Dragons.

So yeah.

Actually, you have to get more powerful as you age and also have 12 age categories (Dragon Magic and Dragons of Kyrnn have that requirement). But Races of the Dragon does indeed give Kobolds the 12 True Dragon age categories, so that requirement is met too. They even give it in the same table that says Dragonwrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties, so it's pretty clear they meant to do it (but I strongly doubt they realized that Dragons of Eberron made being a True Dragon really powerful... without that book, it really doesn't matter).

With that said, it's pretty overpowered, so don't just spring that one on a DM without asking about it first.

JaronK

[ubergeek63]

a kobold sorceror with power word pain and a ring of wizardry can kill 12 lvl4 enemies by himself if he is stealthy and lucky

[NineThePuma]

That's cause Power Word: Pain is broken.

[Luckmann]

a kobold sorceror with power word pain and a ring of wizardry can kill 12 lvl4 enemies by himself if he is stealthy and lucky

How does Kobold factor into that? Isn't that an issue of Sorcerers or spellcasters in general, rather than anything that has to do with Kobolds?

Explain.

[ubergeek63]

How does Kobold factor into that? Isn't that an issue of Sorcerers or spellcasters in general, rather than anything that has to do with Kobolds?

Explain.
simple: the OP wants to play a kobold.

[ubergeek63]

That's cause Power Word: Pain is broken.

yes and no. in the hands of a higher lvl caster it is fairly balanced: 4-16D6 in as many rounds. compared to MM at 15d6 in 3 rounds it is not really far off.

what is broken is the power word system of effect based on target hp. you want to fix it you should scale it based on caster lvl instead of target hp, or at least based on target percentage instead of target absolute hp.

[zyborg]

Leaving aside venerable loredrake dragonspawn greater rite nonsense (because I have yet to meet a DM who would allow all of it in a game starting at level 1), at low levels kobolds make pretty great rogues with the web enhancement. The dex bonus plus size and Slight Build makes them sneaky as heck, and natural weapons combine well with Sneak Attac.

How would a Kobold/Dragonwrought Kobold Rogue compare to, say... a human, halfling, or gnome Rogue?

[Greenish]

How would a Kobold/Dragonwrought Kobold Rogue compare to, say... a human, halfling, or gnome Rogue?My gut feeling is that it'd be better than any of those, though humans (and strongheart halflings, and whisper gnomes) are pretty close or equal.

Well, grabbing a Sovereign Archetype (say, Wyrm of War), Dragonwrought kobold would beat the rest.

[zyborg]

Without a Sovereign Archetype, would a Kobold Rogue still be good? And I doubt it, but... what about a Kobold Bard?

[Greenish]

Without a Sovereign Archetype, would a Kobold Rogue still be good?Yes, absolutely. 60' darkvision, small size (+1 to AC and attack), three natural weapons, 30' move, NA, access to minor casting (SLA from Draconic Draconic rites, sorcerer level from Greater Rites)…


And I doubt it, but... what about a Kobold Bard?Yes, kobold bard is perfectly good, even without Dragonwrought at all, and with dragonwrought it's even better.

[zyborg]

Hmm... a Rogue or Bard would be pretty cool, especially if that Kobold Bard was famous for reciting the tales of Tucker's Kobolds...

Now, why would the Kobold Sorc want Spellscale, or why be a Sorc? I mean, wouldn't Wiz be better for an int-casting Kobold?

[Greenish]

Now, why would the Kobold Sorc want Spellscale, or why be a Sorc? I mean, wouldn't Wiz be better for an int-casting Kobold?I don't understand either of those questions. Kobolds can't be spellscales, because they're kobolds, and an int-casting kobold would already be a wizard (or archivist, or beguiler or… you get the point).

[Benly]

How would a Kobold/Dragonwrought Kobold Rogue compare to, say... a human, halfling, or gnome Rogue?

Pretty well, assuming we're not talking about whisper gnomes, because those guys are The Business. Also, assuming that the Races Of The Dragon web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) is used.

With Slight Build, the kobold counts as Tiny when it's favorable for opposed rolls, which means you get a +8 size bonus on Hide checks. The natural claw attacks mean that you can make multiple sneak attacks per round before the other characters would be able to (since they'd have to wait for a high enough BAB to make iteratives or enough feats for TWF.) You also get a Dexterity bonus; the Strength penalty is a pain until you get weapon finesse, but that's the case for pretty much any Small rogue.

[zyborg]

Not spellscales, mistyped... um... I meant spellhoarding.

[Greenish]

Not spellscales, mistyped... um... I meant spellhoarding.I still don't understand the question. You'd want Spellhoarding for it's neat special abilities, int-boost and getting wizard instead of sorcerer casting (if you happen to prefer it), and if you're Spellhoarding kobold, you'd take wizard levels.