Advice for the good ol' Net and Trident?

[gallagher]

so i am starting to build a net-and-trident style half-orc ranger (for the strength bonus for the net)

besides the TWF tree and the weapon style feat, where else should i look for feats or enhancements for this build? obviously i am getting a spell-storing net and keeping loaded with dispell magic as often as i can.

[Glimbur]

I'm not sure TWF makes sense for you. How often do you really expect to be throwing a net, especially if you shell out the cash to make it spell storing? Trident and net could work, but I would use the net round one and then wield the trident in two hands. Net and Trident style seems... rather lackluster. It situationally gives you one extra attack. In exchange, three feats none of which are that good (you can use a net without the proficiency just fine starting at mid levels, as it is a touch attack).

/Also, obligatory ToB suggestion here: warblades or crusaders can use tridents just fine.

[arguskos]

Suggestion: use razor nets instead of normal nets. They deal damage to creatures that attempt escape. Dragon Compendium.

Do not make magical nets. Nets can be easily broken, meaning your expensive net is now worthless garbage. Deal damage with your trident in two hands once you've gotten the target in the net.

It might be funny to try and combine nets and harpoons at some point, just for laughs.

[gallagher]

Suggestion: use razor nets instead of normal nets. They deal damage to creatures that attempt escape. Dragon Compendium.

Do not make magical nets. Nets can be easily broken, meaning your expensive net is now worthless garbage. Deal damage with your trident in two hands once you've gotten the target in the net.

It might be funny to try and combine nets and harpoons at some point, just for laughs.

that would be many laughs indeed

so there is, in effect, no reason to take any feats related to nets/tridents or TWF feats? that makes the build easier. hooray warblade!

[arguskos]

that would be many laughs indeed

so there is, in effect, no reason to take any feats related to nets/tridents or TWF feats? that makes the build easier. hooray warblade!
Well, if you're gonna do a lot of net/trident stuff, then take that Weapon Style feat when you can. Might as well, and it does let you do something pretty neat with the free full attack thing (lets you net+full attack in one turn, something you can't do any other way sans action economy abuse).

Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with anything else. Ask your DM if you can drop the TWF prereq for that feat, it's unnecessary and the feat isn't that good.

[gallagher]

Well, if you're gonna do a lot of net/trident stuff, then take that Weapon Style feat when you can. Might as well, and it does let you do something pretty neat with the free full attack thing (lets you net+full attack in one turn, something you can't do any other way sans action economy abuse).

Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with anything else. Ask your DM if you can drop the TWF prereq for that feat, it's unnecessary and the feat isn't that good.

meh, i could cover it with some gloves of the balanced hand

[Darrin]

so i am starting to build a net-and-trident style half-orc ranger (for the strength bonus for the net)


Water Orc is going to have a better Str bonus, and a Con bonus on top of that.

Frostblood Orc or Half-Orc is also a strong pick, particularly if you get at least three levels of ranger, so you can swap your Endurance feat for a free bonus feat.

Even better would be a Frostblood Water Orc: Str +4, Con +2, Int/Wis/Cha -2, Cold Resistance 10, and Endurance as a bonus feat.


Suggestion: use razor nets instead of normal nets. They deal damage to creatures that attempt escape. Dragon Compendium.

Do not make magical nets. Nets can be easily broken, meaning your expensive net is now worthless garbage. Deal damage with your trident in two hands once you've gotten the target in the net.


Make the nets out of aurorum (BoED, full-round action to reform) or riverine (immune to normal damage, thus unbreakable).

Razor nets do 1d6 damage (medium size) whenever the target attempts to escape or break free. EWP: Net also applies to razor nets. Aurorum razor nets should be reformable (+4000 GP per net), but check if your DM will allow riverine (2000 GP/lb, 6 lb net = +12000 GP).

Grippli (Dragon #262) treat nets and bolas as martial weapons, although they are small-sized. Unlike lassos, nets are very size-dependent, but you can offset that with Strongarm Bracers or just sucking up the offsize-weapon penalty (ranged touch attacks are usually easier to hit with, particularly since touch AC tends to go DOWN as CR goes UP).

Aquatic Elves are probably the ideal race for this style, since they gain proficiency with nets and tridents as racial bonus feats. Add the Amphibious template for -2 Dex and you can get rid of the annoying "can only breath air for 1 hour per point of Con" restriction, although this leaves you with Int -2 as your only attribute mods.

Buy a Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) and give your unseen servant standing orders to manage your nets: reform any broken aurorum nets, pick up any unattended nets, fold them (takes 4 rounds), bring them back to you, stuff them back into your pack, etc.

You can add augment crystals to the nets. Least Crystal of Return (300 GP, MIC p. 65) can be attached to any masterwork net to allow you to draw it as a free action without blowing a feat on Quickdraw. If the net gets destroyed, shrug and pick up your augment crystal, attach it to another masterwork net later.

Crystal of Energy Assault is somewhat trickier, since the net itself doesn't do damage, and the razor net only does damage when the target attempts to escape/break the net. You may be able to get around this by making the net out of an exotic material, such as Hizagkuur (+1500 GP, Magic of Faerun p. 179, +1 electrical and +1 fire damage on each hit), Rimefire Ice (+750 GP, Frostburn p. 80, +1 cold damage per round of contact) or Stygian Ice (+6000 GP, Frostburn p. 81, +1d6 cold damage per round of contact). However, it's not clear if any of those materials can be used to make something as flexible as a net/razor net, which will require some negotiation with the DM. It also prevents you from using aurorum or riverine, which may be the only decent way to repair or prevent a magical net from being broken.

Phoenix Ash Threat crystal works well enough if you want the net to do *some* kind of damage and don't care if it happens on the next round. I'm not entirely sure what happens if the target is immobilized, staggered, or otherwise unable to escape... common sense should say they keep burning, but RAW suggests that they only take damage on the round after the weapon hits, and unless the target is actively attempting to escape from a razor net every round, a net only "hits" on the round you throw it. A razor net will get at least two "hits" (once when you throw, and at least once more when the target escapes/breaks out). For a lesser crystal, this is 3 damage per hit, but that requires at least a +1 weapon, which could get pretty expensive if your nets aren't made out of aurorum.

Truedeath Crystal might have some interesting possibilities, particularly against something like zombies that can't take full-round actions and thus can't escape. It's not clear if the +1d6 damage is per hit or just by contact, but if the latter, then a Lesser Truedeath vs. incorporeal undead could work very nicely, since incorporeal creatures can't break the net (no Str score).

Nets and lassos are ideal for setting up a Blister Oil Bomb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168100) (15 GP for 1d8 applications, Races of Stone p. 159). The Fort save DC 15 is still hopelessly low, but add Sovereign Glue (2400 GP, DMG) and the target will eventually blow a Fort save.

Spell Storing is the ideal enchantment for a net, and an easy way to add damage to the attack. Even easier is a Glyph Seal or Greater Glyph Seal (1000/4000 GP, MIC p. 161). Set the trigger to "anyone other than me who touches the net" and you can get around the "must be a targeted spell" restriction for Spell Storing. Plus, unlike an augment crystal the Glyph Seal doesn't require a particular enhancement bonus on the weapon, and if the net gets broken/destroyed, you can just pick up the Glyph Seal and attach it to another net later. Hmm... let's start with:

Masterwork net, 320 GP
Least Crystal of Return, 300 GP
Glyph Seal, 1000 GP
Total: 1620 GP

Wand of make whole, 750 GP (1st level spell via Balance domain) until you can afford an Aurorum razor net:

Masterwork razor net, 350 GP
Aurorum, 4000 GP
Least Crystal of Return, 300 GP
Glyph Seal, 1000 GP
Greater Glyph Seal, 4000 GP (who says you can't have both?)
+2 enhancement, 8000 GP (+1 weapon, Spell Storing)
Total: 17650 GP


It also occurs to me that the free 5' step you get from Net and Trident Style could work very well with Skirmish damage. You get one 5' step to start with, throw the net, get another 5' step to close to melee range and trigger your skirmish damage, and then can two-handed power attack with the trident. So long as you have a net available to throw, you could full attack skirmish all day: 5' step back, throw net, 5' step forward, full attack, rinse & repeat. Some possible skirmish builds:

Ranger 4/Simple Fighter 1/Hightland Stalker 6/Ranger +9
BAB: +20
Skirmish: 6d6/+4 AC (better damage than Scout 20)
Mystic Ranger: 5th level spells, CL 6

Scout 3/Ranger 3/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2/Ranger +3/Spellsword 1
BAB: +17
Skirmish: 8d6/+2 AC
Sorcerer: 3rd level spells, CL 7
Mystic Ranger: 3rd level spells, CL 3

Which leaves ToB... shoehorn a level of Warblade and two levels of Bloodstorm Blade in there somewhere, and you can treat throwing the net as a melee attack, which opens up some interesting possibilities (hmm... can we get Power Attack damage on a net attack?). Strikes don't mix well with Net and Trident Style, but there are plenty of boosts and stances that could come in handy.

Exotic Weapon Master doesn't help much for the net, but it's worth at least a 1-level dip to get Close Quarters Ranged Combat (no AoOs for throwing a net).

TWF is a prereq for Net and Trident, but we're not actually using it when we full attack. Armor/netcutter spikes or Improved Unarmed Strike can give us an offhand strike, as would Quickdraw + Oversize TWF or EWP: Gnome Quickrazor. Snap Kick and/or Planar Touchstone: Oxyrhynchus can add extra attacks. Get your hands on a Morphing lesser sunsword +1 (morphed into a trident, still counts as a shortsword) or an Aptitude Trident +1 and you can add Dex to damage via Shadow Blade.

[Talya]

Just remember, nets only require a touch attack, so proficiency with them is less of an issue for a full BAB class. (not that it hurts to have it, but I wouldn't waste a feat on it if you don't.)

Since you're likely only to use the net once in any given combat session, you get more use out of martial study (wolf fang strike) than two weapon fighting. (or simply play a warblade.)

[gallagher]

Darrin gave me a series of ideas, revolving around the 3 main problems with a net: it has a break DC of 25, an escape artist check of a constant 20, and it deals no (or little with a razor net) damage.

first with the break DC: who is to say we cant make the net out of chain? making it out of adamantium is the obvious answer here, and with it's added weight, might give us a circumstance bonus to make the escape artist DC higher.

secondly with the EA: is there any feat or class ability that allows one to use their Use Rope check to set the DC for escape artist with the net? it isnt difficult to put ranks into use rope, and since my build is focused on using a net, i would pretty much have to beef up my use rope as high as i can, so levels of justicar would be in order.

Third, with damage: there is a warblade maneuver that allows you to make you concentrate for damage instead of dealing regular damage. if the net doesnt normally deal damage anyway, can i still concentrate to add damage to the net?

Also, to keep people within 10 feet of me, i could totally have the chain on my new and improved net somehow attached to my gauntlet, similar to how a locked gauntlet works, except it would be attached at my wrist

and those glyphs look like a good idea. i imagine i could put some on there that would kill my opponents skill-checks and their Dex, making it easier to keep them entangled.

[gallagher]

also, though this sounds like it would go great with a warblade, am i the only one who is envisioning a Psychic Warrior with this build in mind?

[Darrin]

Darrin gave me a series of ideas, revolving around the 3 main problems with a net: it has a break DC of 25, an escape artist check of a constant 20, and it deals no (or little with a razor net) damage.


I don't see these as problems at all. If your enemy wants to waste a full-round action to get out of a net, then you've shut him down completely for a round, which is a "win" for you. Even if he immediately gets out, Net and Trident Style essentially lets you throw a net on him every round as a free action. Your opponent is much more likely to just suck up the entangle penalties and attack from inside the net.

If you combine Net and Trident Style with Staggering Strike (via Assassin's Stance or simple fighter), you can "stagger-lock" your opponent: while staggered, he's limited to a single standard/move action, and can't escape/break free.

Hmm... if we add Dungeon Crasher and Knock-Back, and we bull-rush our target beyond the range of the net/rope we're holding on to... does that trigger Dungeon Crasher damage?



first with the break DC: who is to say we cant make the net out of chain? making it out of adamantium is the obvious answer here, and with it's added weight, might give us a circumstance bonus to make the escape artist DC higher.


I'm not quite sure the material used has any effect on the break/escape artist check. Hence why I suggested riverine: unless your muscles can generate a disintegrate effect, it ain't breaking. No duration to being entangled, so no Iron Heart Surge, either. But you'll need to convince your DM that riverine can be shaped into chains or wires... so good luck there.



secondly with the EA: is there any feat or class ability that allows one to use their Use Rope check to set the DC for escape artist with the net? it isnt difficult to put ranks into use rope, and since my build is focused on using a net, i would pretty much have to beef up my use rope as high as i can, so levels of justicar would be in order.


Master of Chains 4 (Sword & Fist p. 28) has "Chain Bind", which raises the Escape Artist DC to 25 and the break DC to 30. But it's a full-round action to wrap them up. And again, I don't really care if they get out, because they waste their turn doing so, and I get a free attack next round to put them back into a net.

As far as Use Rope goes, it takes a full minute to bind a creature so the Escape Artist DC = Use Rope check. I'm not sure there's any reasonable way to speed that up. If you can hit a Use Rope DC 20, the Epic skill rules allow you to treat a rope as if it had animate rope cast on it, which means you can make a ranged touch attack to entangle a creature. However, it's pretty much identical to throwing a net, and the Use Rope check has no effect on the escape/break DCs.



Third, with damage: there is a warblade maneuver that allows you to make you concentrate for damage instead of dealing regular damage. if the net doesnt normally deal damage anyway, can i still concentrate to add damage to the net?


Almost all strikes specify a melee attack, so you need at least two levels of Bloodstorm Blade to get Thunderous Throw. This allows you to treat your thrown weapon attacks as if they were melee attacks. However, this eats up your swift action that round along with a standard action for the strike. So it won't work with Net and Trident Style, and it prevents you from making a full attack.

However, there are a variety of Devoted Spirit, Stone Mountain, and White Raven strikes that trigger an effect on a successful hit: healing, preventing AoOs, reducing/immobilizing your opponent, etc. This strategy is much more effective with a whip rather than a net, since the 3.5 update reclassified the whip as a melee weapon.



Also, to keep people within 10 feet of me, i could totally have the chain on my new and improved net somehow attached to my gauntlet, similar to how a locked gauntlet works, except it would be attached at my wrist


The rules for a locked gauntlet don't specify that the attached weapon has to be a melee weapon, so you can already do this with a net by RAW. I'd recommend against it, though, because once the net is thrown or your opponent gets out of it, it's going to interfere with your ability to do anything with that hand except drag an unfolded net around the battlefield. You can already prevent your opponent from moving beyond the range of the net (or force a Str check) just by stating that you're holding on to the rope attached to the net, and let go of it whenever it gets inconvenient.



and those glyphs look like a good idea. i imagine i could put some on there that would kill my opponents skill-checks and their Dex, making it easier to keep them entangled.

Shivering touch is perfect for this, but rankles so much with the stench of outright cheese that you're much less likely to get books thrown at your head if you stick to something like ray of clumsiness, ice knife, numbing sphere, power word maladroit, phantasmal assailants, touch of years, or frostbite.

The Dex penalties from fatigue and exhaustion are also perfect for stacking with the entangle penalties, particularly entangled + exhausted. A -10 Dex penalty completely immobilizes a frighteningly large number of high-CR creatures, including most dragons. A net + Greater Glyph Seal + waves of exhaustion (or channeled lifetheft)= one-shot no-save kill as a ranged touch attack. Some other fatigue-inducing spells include: touch of fatigue, death's call, karmic aura, power word fatigue, sunstroke, kelgore's grave mist, ray of exhaustion, Melf's slumber arrows, heatstroke, fever dream, and unearthly heat.


also, though this sounds like it would go great with a warblade, am i the only one who is envisioning a Psychic Warrior with this build in mind?

The problem with Warblade is it's a bit strike-heavy, which doesn't work so well with Net and Trident Style. Swordsage might be better, which gives you access to a lot more boosts, counters, and stances that work well with full-round attacks.

PsyWar I don't know so much about (other than augmented expansion and hustle), but I'm pretty sure it could be all sorts of awesomesauce.

[gallagher]

you know, i bet that for dungeon crash to work, you would have to not break the net itself... so we would need to figure out how to work that one. since bull rushes are strength checks, i suppose that you would have to win without beating the break DC on the rope

and yes, psywars are awesomesauce atop awesomefries and washes down nicely with an awesomeshake

[Prime32]

Crystal of Energy Assault is somewhat trickier, since the net itself doesn't do damage, and the razor net only does damage when the target attempts to escape/break the net. You may be able to get around this by making the net out of an exotic material, such as Hizagkuur (+1500 GP, Magic of Faerun p. 179, +1 electrical and +1 fire damage on each hit), Rimefire Ice (+750 GP, Frostburn p. 80, +1 cold damage per round of contact) or Stygian Ice (+6000 GP, Frostburn p. 81, +1d6 cold damage per round of contact). However, it's not clear if any of those materials can be used to make something as flexible as a net/razor net, which will require some negotiation with the DM. It also prevents you from using aurorum or riverine, which may be the only decent way to repair or prevent a magical net from being broken. Enchant the net as a Scorpion Kama. :smalltongue: